Tape called "Light Began to Dawn." A Partial transcript. Selling Plurality. SNT 214

[WordWolf]

WordWolf:

"The only reason to think vpw is worthy of ANY respect is his own insistence that he was- and that's not very convincing to most people. "

 

Mike:

"Baloney !!!

I looked at the good fruit first, and THEN I started to believe his claims.

It occurred to me that I didn't have the ability to look at the fruit in HIS life, "

 

WordWolf responds:

Salami on your baloney.   You had plenty of ability to look at the fruit in his life then, and you certainly can see as well as everyone else what fruit has been.  

We all know- and you might not admit- that if the exact same claims were made of anyone else, you would dismiss them completely.

 

A minister, given to yelling at his congregation, known for plagiarizing virtually everything he teaches, and claiming he originated virtually all of it,   addicted to alcohol and drinking it while teaching,  addicted to tobacco and got cancer from all the tobacco,  who has set up an elaborate social structure that facilitates him molesting and raping the female members of the congregation and sometimes drugs them first but always tells them God Almighty wants them to sexually service him the minister......

....if this minister taught some good sermons and effective Bible.....

....and also claimed that God Almighty chose him uniquely out of all Christians for the past 2000 years....

you wouldn't believe his claim, and you wouldn't take him seriously.

 

You skip over looking over the fruit in vpw's life-  and actively discourage anyone looking at the fruit in vpw's life and call them names FOR looking at the fruit in vpw's life,

because it doesn't match up with what you WANT to believe.

 

 

Mike:

"I looked at the good fruit first, and THEN I started to believe his claims.

It occurred to me that I didn't have the ability to look at the fruit in HIS life, but in my life, and in the lives of my friends who took the class, the fruit was (and still is) abundant and good. "  

WordWolf responds:

Mortadella on your baloney.

If anyone spoke about ANOTHER Bible teacher, and that teacher plagiarized all their material from others, and someone insisted that they were a quality teacher and quality Christian because they were benefiting from what they'd learned...

...we all know what you'd say to that person, who said the same thing about any teacher EXCEPT WIERWILLE. 

 

[WordWolf]

Mike:

"This process is STILL going on, where people get massively blessed with the collaterals when they take the new TWI foundational class.  They get to see the fruit in their lives as they put the content of the collaterals into their Bible reading and lives. "

 

T-Bone:

"Baloney!

Are  YOU  omniscient and omnipresent?

How do you know “this process” is still going on? “people get massively blessed” ?!?! But  YOU  just said you didn’t have the ability to look at the fruit in the lives of others!

“blessed with the collaterals when they take the new TWI foundational class” Oh, so you’ve taken the new PFAL Today class?

Also, please define  “massively blessed”  and  describe what  “fruit” is seen."

 

 

WordWolf responds:

And so, in Mike's mind, there's lots of new people taking the new pfal class, and getting "massively blessed."  Mind you, he hasn't SEEN these people, but IN HIS MIND, there's lots of them.

 

 

Mike:

"Many thousands right this minute are thankful for PFAL and how it helped them.  You folks missed this bus, but there is still another one you can catch.  It's not too late.  It will be too late someday."

 

 

 

T-Bone: Baloney!

“thousands right this minute” ?  Are  YOU  omniscient and omnipresent?

“You folks missed this bus, but there is still another one you can catch” …bus? Did you mean to say motorcoach?  Who’s driving and who’s getting diddled in the back? 

 

 

WordWolf responds:

Again, in Mike's mind, there's "thousands of people right this minute" who are thankful for pfal.  He has not interacted with these "thousands", but in his mind, there's thousands.

 

 

[Mike]

 

It looks to me that if I am right,  that thousands of old grads ARE still being blessed by the collaterals,
that would be pretty bad news to some posters here. 

Ditto for the new grads of PFAL-T who get a full set of collaterals, including the PFAL book.

Also, there are the MANY splinter groups who partially lean on the collaterals (at least in memory), and are still very thankful for their solid foundation in PFAL, even if they disagree with some points.

Even the mere possibility that I am right here MUST be challenged!.  My claim MUST be drowned out and buried.    

Why?  

Ask yourselves, if you are in this sad category, why do you so want to see those thousands NOT blessed?   This sounds to me like a pretty negative corner to have painted oneself into.

*/*/*/*/*/*

I hang out with lots of proPFAL people.  

I have contacted and seen on the Internet many of them over the years

How many do you hang out with? 

What I mean by "hang out" is have deep discussions with, either in person, by voice-phone, or text.  Do you have any proPFAL people in your intellectual life's network.  Are you insular this way?   If so, you will be very surprised someday when you finally see all the joy we pro-PFAL people have.

I suggest you folks branch out and get some new ideas flowing regarding PFAL.  
Have you ever heard of intellectual inbreeding? 

 

 

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

Mortadella on your baloney.

If anyone spoke about ANOTHER Bible teacher, and that teacher plagiarized all their material from others, and someone insisted that they were a quality teacher and quality Christian because they were benefiting from what they'd learned...

...we all know what you'd say to that person, who said the same thing about any teacher EXCEPT WIERWILLE. 

 

Now flip the script and imagine how bad Mike would freak out if someone plagaraized wierwille and took his materials, rebranded them, claimed ownership, and claimed God almighty had chosen him over everone else incliding wierwille over the past 2000 years to teach all of it because it hadn't been known since the apostle Paul.

[Mike]

5 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Now flip the script and imagine how bad Mike would freak out if someone plagaraized wierwille and took his materials, rebranded them, claimed ownership, and claimed God almighty had chosen him over everone else incliding wierwille over the past 2000 years to teach all of it because it hadn't been known since the apostle Paul.

I would rejoice if others heard the same truths, re-branded, and were in the same heavenly family with us.

You have no idea how I think.  That is because you are not willing to listen to me.  You only look for ammunition in my words that you can shoot at me.   Same with how you are reading this transcript from 1965.  Not a shred of understanding.

LATE ADDITION:
I purposely do not copyright my writing, even my comedy and science and hippie-history writing.   I think I do this for the same reason VPW never copyrighted the SNT teaching tapes, and the film class.  I never saw a copyright notice in the film class until aroung 1982, and I was the Branch AV guy for many years.

I am into the ideas.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Mike

[OldSkool]

Just now, Mike said:

I would rejoice if others heard the same truths, re-branded, and were in the same heavenly family with us.

You have no idea how I think.  That is because you are not willing to listen to me.  You only look for ammunition in my words that you can shoot at me.   Same with how you are reading this transcript from 1965.  Not a shred of understanding.

Just can't get away from the insults and accusations can you. I understand perfectly well what I am reading and where the ideas came from. PFAL has a decent amount of occultism mixed into it via the law of believing. Now, if you are interested in why I am saying this I can provide a boat load of information for further study. If you just want to hurl insults then it just shows you have nothing else in your defence of wieriwlle in the face of the truth presented from multiple sources. Lemme know your interest and if you would like to read more about what I am saying I will provide links...don't have time atm cause Im heading out to a family dinner. Cheers!

[Twinky]

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

Ask yourselves, if you are in this sad category, why do you so want to see those thousands NOT blessed?   This sounds to me like a pretty negative corner to have painted oneself into.

*/*/*/*/*/*

I hang out with lots of proPFAL people.  

I have contacted and seen on the Internet many of them over the years

How many do you hang out with? 

What I mean by "hang out" is have deep discussions with, either in person, by voice-phone, or text.  Do you have any proPFAL people in your intellectual life's network.  Are you insular this way?   If so, you will be very surprised someday when you finally see all the joy we pro-PFAL people have.

I suggest you folks branch out and get some new ideas flowing regarding PFAL.  
Have you ever heard of intellectual inbreeding? 

Perhaps some of us are seeing actual people being "blessed."  And none of them know anything about PFAL.  But God knows them, loves them and blesses them.

As for me, and many people here, we "hang out with" lots of known Christian people.  And some non-Christians - for it's possible to have deep and meaningful discussions even with agnostic and atheists. 

I have NO proPFAL people in my intellectual life's network, because it seems to me that there is no intellectual life in any proPFAL network.  I do, however, see the joy in the lives of real, practising, believing Christians across a range of churches and denominations.  You will be very surprised, Mike, when you finally see all the joy we Christian people have.

I suggest you branch out and get some new ideas flowing regarding Christianity.  And in particular, regarding Jesus Christ. 

I also suggest that you are wrapped up in "intellectual inbreeding" - kinda like being wrapped up in clingfilm.

[Mike]

 

 

3 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Just can't get away from the insults and accusations can you. I understand perfectly well what I am reading and where the ideas came from. PFAL has a decent amount of occultism mixed into it via the law of believing. Now, if you are interested in why I am saying this I can provide a boat load of information for further study. If you just want to hurl insults then it just shows you have nothing else in your defence of wieriwlle in the face of the truth presented from multiple sources. Lemme know your interest and if you would like to read more about what I am saying I will provide links...don't have time atm cause Im heading out to a family dinner. Cheers!

 

What you take as in insult is actually constructive criticism.

[Mike]

8 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Perhaps some of us are seeing actual people being "blessed."  And none of them know anything about PFAL.  But God knows them, loves them and blesses them.

As for me, and many people here, we "hang out with" lots of known Christian people.  And some non-Christians - for it's possible to have deep and meaningful discussions even with agnostic and atheists. 

I have NO proPFAL people in my intellectual life's network, because it seems to me that there is no intellectual life in any proPFAL network.  I do, however, see the joy in the lives of real, practising, believing Christians across a range of churches and denominations.  You will be very surprised, Mike, when you finally see all the joy we Christian people have.

I suggest you branch out and get some new ideas flowing regarding Christianity.  And in particular, regarding Jesus Christ. 

I also suggest that you are wrapped up in "intellectual inbreeding" - kinda like being wrapped up in clingfilm.

 

VPW had a lot of good sources.  That tells me that there are lot of truths out there being enjoyed by non-grads of PFAL.  If those others BELIEVE any of the promises of God, then He is able to bless them abundantly. 

I am not surprised that some rise above the error in their denominations and churches to have some joy.

I doubt if they get the whole story, and expect that they have to limp at times.  But then again, so do I.   We all are growing.  We pro-PFAL grads have found that we get a lot of benefits by working the KJV with the keys and foundation we got from PFAL.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Mike

[OldSkool]

17 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

 

 

What you take as in insult is actually constructive criticism.

I didn't think you were interested.

[Mike]

13 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

I didn't think you were interested.

I am.

[WordWolf]

Mike:

"I purposely do not copyright my writing, even my comedy and science and hippie-history writing.   I think I do this for the same reason VPW never copyrighted the SNT teaching tapes, and the film class.  I never saw a copyright notice in the film class until aroung 1982, and I was the Branch AV guy for many years.

I am into the ideas."

 

 

WordWolf responds.

vpw made sure there were copyright notices on every book his "American Christian Press" printed, especially when it was materials with his name on them- allegedly with vpw as the author, as they said.   vpw was very interested in asserting his copyrights on all of them. 

So, there's a disconnect.  Why did vpw make sure ALL the print stuff had a copyright, but the audio tapes/ video tapes did not- until later?

There's basically 3 possibilities.

1) vpw had some complicated reason where the completed, edited books should not be reproduced, but the tapes, often off-the-cuff, were supposed to be fair game for copying and that was actually intentional.

2) vpw had no idea that audio-video materials, like printed materials, were subject to copyright and could have/should have had copyrights asserted for them, whereas with the books, he'd known that for many decades. 

3) God Almighty, for reasons known only to Him, told vpw to copyright everything in print from American Christian Press, but told vpw to leave copyright off of the audio tapes/ video tapes.

 

I think the answer is obvious to ALMOST everyone.

 

Mind you, if the whole intention was to inject pfal into the public by making it public domain, it was incredibly inconsistent because the collaterals had copyright from the beginning, so the printed pfal books were NEVER in the public domain.  So, God Almighty was inconsistent in that, or vpw was inconsistent in that, or that was never the intention.

I think the answer is obvious to ALMOST everyone.

[WordWolf]

OldSkool:

"Now flip the script and imagine how bad Mike would freak out if someone plagaraized wierwille and took his materials, rebranded them, claimed ownership, and claimed God almighty had chosen him over everone else incliding wierwille over the past 2000 years to teach all of it because it hadn't been known since the apostle Paul. "

 

Mike:

"I would rejoice if others heard the same truths, re-branded, and were in the same heavenly family with us.

You have no idea how I think.  That is because you are not willing to listen to me.  You only look for ammunition in my words that you can shoot at me.   "

 

WordWolf responds:

Mike, you've previously commented how it was a big deal how the pfal book copyrights had to be respected.    You've made a big deal about ideas that lauded vpw to the skies and made a big deal about him getting all the credit to which you feel he is entitled.

That's how you've claimed you thought PREVIOUSLY.   Have you changed positions?  It sounds like you have, but haven't told us- and blame us for thinking you're still holding your PREVIOUS position. We listened to you before and understood. Your insistence that people only read your posts for ammunition is unrealistic. It doesn't reflect reality. This is hardly news by now.

[T-Bone]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

It looks to me that if I am right,  that thousands of old grads ARE still being blessed by the collaterals,
that would be pretty bad news to some posters here. 

 

Mike: It looks to me that if I am right,  that thousands of old grads ARE still being blessed by the collaterals, that would be pretty bad news to some posters here.

 

 

T-Bone:   take note of a nonsensical phrasing by Mike that displays the silliness of his argument using the word  “if”  which introduces a conditional clause; in other words, on the condition of, or supposition, or assumption that, or in the event that…now, rearranging his statement into a more normal manner of speaking that doesn’t try to hide his bias and logical fallacies, Mike’s statement could be understood in an Amplified translation Blue Letter Edition (de-obfuscated words of Mike in Blue) as:

“On my assumption [or without an honest and accurate quantifying/qualifying polling/survey basis thereby thumbing my nose at experts in the preparation and analysis of statistics, i.e., statisticians] after pulling an impressive sounding number out of my a$$, what I see through my wierwille-colored glasses is that some Grease Spotters are not impressed over my battles with windmills.”

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I am not surprised that some rise above the error in their denominations and churches to have some joy.

Would you be surprised to know that some rise above the error in their PFAL and TWI to have great joy, abundance and power?

Edited September 25, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
It's a dandy!

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

VPW had a lot of good sources.

Whatever happened to the story of taking all his books (without exception or distinction) to the dump or the burn pit or whatever? I thought victor's ONLY source was his god and the post-first century Bible?

Real question. Not a gotcha. Just trying to fit it all together. You know, like a hand...

Edited September 25, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
...in a glove. The original work.

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I suggest you folks branch out and get some new ideas flowing regarding PFAL.  
Have you ever heard of intellectual inbreeding? 

 

Holy CARP! Classic projection is what that looks like.

[waysider]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I purposely do not copyright my writing, even my comedy and science and hippie-history writing.   I think I do this for the same reason VPW never copyrighted the SNT teaching tapes, and the film class.  I never saw a copyright notice in the film class until aroung 1982, and I was the Branch AV guy for many years.

I am into the ideas.

This is not how copyrights works. Your work is copyrighted as soon as it is created and "fixed in a tangible medium". You then have an option to register your copyright to secure legal protections. (U.S. law) Thus, PFAL was copyrighted, though not registered as such. This explains why you didn't see a notice of registration.

[Nathan_Jr]

15 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Holy CARP! Classic projection is what that looks like.

You saw it, too? Yep. That along with the comment about insularity. TWI, PFAL and victor embody the quintessence of "intellectual inbreeding."

ALTHOUGH, I'll admit "intellectual inbreeding" is a new phrasing for me - I love it and I'm stealing it!

HOWEVER, it's not a new concept. It's a hallmark of all cults.

[T-Bone]

8 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

You saw it, too? Yep. That along with the comment about insularity. TWI, PFAL and victor embody the quintessence of "intellectual inbreeding."

ALTHOUGH, I'll admit "intellectual inbreeding" is a new phrasing for me - I love it and I'm stealing it!

HOWEVER, it's not a new concept. It's a hallmark of all cults.

well if you're gonna do that, then I'm stealing an old anti-drug campaign ad...

 

this is your brain 

this is PFAL

this is your brain of PFAL

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by T-Bone
This was my editor on drugs

[Nathan_Jr]

8 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

well if you're gonna do that, then I'm stealing an old anti-drug campaign ad...

 

this your brain 

this is PFAL

this is your brain of PFAL

 

Should be easy to fry those brains on that PFAL bus.

[OldSkool]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

I am.

Here ya go. Mike, I would encourage you to go check the reference list when you work the material. I purposely used a wide variety of sources. Please, if possible, refrain from logic fallacies (straw man, red herring, etc) and let's deal with the information only. The sources could be fundamentalist, could be Muslim, could be secular. Im speaking particularly on the historic points I bring up in this context. It's verifiable history that (for example) E.W. Kenyon was into the occult and mixed those doctrines into Christianity. Please refrain from spamming up this thread with law of believing stuff as I will only respond to this in doctrinal.

 This 

Edited September 25, 2022 by OldSkool

[T-Bone]

11 hours ago, Mike said:

Also, there are the MANY splinter groups who partially lean on the collaterals (at least in memory), and are still very thankful for their solid foundation in PFAL, even if they disagree with some points.

Even the mere possibility that I am right here MUST be challenged!.  My claim MUST be drowned out and buried.    

Sorry…had to squeeze in another episode of The West Wing…okay – where was I? oh yeah

 

 

Mike: Also, there are the MANY splinter groups who partially lean on the collaterals (at least in memory), and are still very thankful for their solid foundation in PFAL, even if they disagree with some points.

T-Bone: and again I must challenge your self-assuming omniscience and omnipresence…cuz there’s no way on vic’s green PFAL card (…or for that matter neither in the spacetime continuum where the rest of us live) that such a statement as yours is nothing more than self-aggrandizing.

~ ~ ~ ~  

Mike: Even the mere possibility that I am right here MUST be challenged!. 

T-Bone: when monkeys wearing PFAL ’77 nametags come flying out my bvtt , I’ll admit that’s possible.

~ ~ ~ ~

Mike: …that I am right here MUST be challenged. My claim MUST be drowned out and buried.   

T-Bone: “challenged” – yes, that’s a dynamic in any debate.

“My claim MUST be drowned out and buried” – make up your mind! A challenging debate articulates issues – such is the Socratic method   - there’s no need to drown out or bury lies and logical fallacies – when the  Socratic method exposes them…sorry to burst anyone’s bubble but maybe the “fatal drowning” was due to someone not knowing how to swim and wound up burying themselves at sea.

Edited September 26, 2022 by T-Bone
editor was lost in a sea of uncertainty

[chockfull]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

 

VPW had a lot of good sources.  That tells me that there are lot of truths out there being enjoyed by non-grads of PFAL.  If those others BELIEVE any of the promises of God, then He is able to bless them abundantly. 

I am not surprised that some rise above the error in their denominations and churches to have some joy.

I doubt if they get the whole story, and expect that they have to limp at times.  But then again, so do I.   We all are growing.  We pro-PFAL grads have found that we get a lot of benefits by working the KJV with the keys and foundation we got from PFAL.

I see it is easier for you to retreat to labels than it is to employ logic.  Pro PFAL anti PFAL is all BS.

The fruit of the class they just filmed whatever the label is does not differ from the original.

It is doctrinal error and practical error surrounding 1 Cor 12-14.  PFAL brainwashees no longer interact with the rest of the body of Christ as written in the Bible should happen.

[T-Bone]

18 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Should be easy to fry those brains on that PFAL bus.

 

A true leader goes ahead of his people as a trailblazer... 

...before the fiery PFAL bus went over its first cliff (as mentioned in Cliff Notes…aka PFAL syllabus) there was the leader of the pack…

Ghost   Rider    

 

Ghost      Writer

 

Ghost     Plagiarizer

 

 

Born to live…live to copy