Tape called "Light Began to Dawn." A Partial transcript. Selling Plurality. SNT 214

[Nathan_Jr]

On 9/20/2022 at 1:50 PM, WordWolf said:

For some reason, Mike would rather derail existing threads with his message, and scatter it all over the middles of other threads, than make one thread to make clear points where people can see them. 

Since this is contrary to the board's interest, I'm starting the thread he should have.

 

For those whom vpw has not lost all credibility (by virtue of being a chronic liar, plagiarist, and everything else), it might be of particular interest to find out what he's said on twi history.   The rest of us may find it's interesting to see where the disconnects are between what he SAID happened, and what happened and what everyone else said happened.

So, Mike keeps buried his partial transcript of a tape called "Light Began to Dawn."  So, The "Light Began to Dawn Transcript."

ake the "Selling Plurality Transcript", aka  SNT 214.

The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write The Book? - Page 10 - About The Way - GreaseSpot Cafe

Mike:

 

I've mentioned a SNS tape from 1965 a few times here, and it occurred to me it is spot on with the thread's topic. This is how VPW cited his sources in 1965:

 Excerpt from SNS Tape #214  Selling Plurality: Acts 4:34

(sometimes called "Light Began to Dawn")

 

 

 
I remember the time when we began working this Word of God, and light began to dawn on it.  That, as we got more and more light, we got less and less people. Because the background of this ministry has a great deal more in it than most of you people know today who have just come into this ministry in the last five to ten years.  Because you can come into a beautiful auditorium like this--and by the way, we laid a new sidewalk for ya' this week.  Did you notice it?  Now it can snow 'cause you can all get in with dry feet and clean feet and so forth. 

 

 

 Well, Doc--he formed it up good and Bob and he poured it and Rueben helped and a couple ladies to help and, boy, everybody worked--to get 'er done.  But, how'd I get on sidewalks, what were we talking about?  Okay, what were we talkin' about, Thelma? Oh, yes--you see all of this and you walk into a comfortable building that's air conditioned in summer and heated occasionally in winter, and all of these other wonderful things we have here, and you say, "Boy, isn't this something?" 

 

 

But, in order to make available what's here tonight, there's some of us who have had to stand through thick and thin; through a lot of talk, a lot of persecution, a lot of bickering and a lot of laughing. And at times we have had to take a stand when even our best friends moved away.  I remember the day when there were no more than two or three people would come to a Bible study on Wednesday or Thursday night in the week.  And I suppose today, if we only had two or three people, we--we'd think the world came to an end.  But I remember those days, and here in the auditorium again tonight--I don't know if you people knew I was gonna teach on  this, that's why you all came, huh?   

 

 

But here sit the Kupps from Convoy, Ohio, the Permins from Ft. Wayne, Indiana, the Ira Joneses from Van Wert, Ohio; three couples who have stuck with us down through the years.  And boy, this is something.  I don't know if you people realize how it blesses my heart on a Sunday night or any night of the week, when I'm teaching or something is open here at the headquarters to help everybody--and you see people like the Joneses, the Permins and the Kupps.  They drive in here every Sunday night from Convoy, from Ft.Wayne, from Van Wert--almost every Sunday.  Once in a while Eldo has to take an evening off to go fishin' and ah, Herman has to do something, Jones have to take a little trip out to fish.  In the Jones family, Mrs. Jones fishes, Mr. Jones just drives the car.  Ah, in the Kupp family it's the opposite, Eldo drives the car, he does the fishin' and Grace just rides along. 

 

 

So, I could tell ya' lots about a lot of these people--but it's all good--it's all good.  Ah, Eldo just brought me a hunting knife tonight, I lost the one he gave me last year, so he brought me a new one tonight.  Ah is it sharp?  It--aha! Yeah--he said he got me a wet stone it was--it oughta be sharp 'cause he-he sharpens knives over there in Convoy--among other things.  He-he's worked at ah, you work at Goodyear didn't you--no, not ah--Harvester. I get St. Mary's and Fort Wayne mixed, but he-he's worked at Harvester for how many years?  Thirty-six years, and when he started working there--what'd they used to pay an hour down there--when you started?  Fifty-two cents an hour, and he's been there thirty-six years and ah, has a wonderful job. And I think they like him but they're gonna retire him some of these times, and then he--of course he'll be able to ah, come to The Way more often than he's even doin' now. 

 

 

But people like the Kupps and the Permins and the Joneses, when I teach here on Sunday night, many times the things that I teach, they may have heard a dozen times.  They may have been in on the first services when some of this stuff began to brew within my soul and I used to teach this thing in Van Wert.  And as this ministry began to grow, the knowledge of God's Word began to grow in my heart, I shared it with people.  And most of the people that I've shared it with, we still have wonderful friends, they have a good feeling towards you; they're thankful that they knew you and they're thankful for what's going on.  But to stand with the ministry, except to be thankful--that's better than havin' stand the other way, for which I'm grateful, they--they don't do anything concrete for the ministry, like these people do.  Occasionally they come, but not systematically. 

 

 

And as I look back over the years, to think how this ministry really started, it began at a place that's almost impossible for people to realize.  Because when they look at the ministry, or they look at my life, here in the local community and every other place, they simply say, "Well, why didn't he stay where he was?"  "Why didn't he stay in the denomination?" "Why didn't he move it?" "Can't a man work there?"  There's a lot of answers and a lot of things to be discussed in that category.  But it began because of the hunger in my heart for a knowledge of God's Word--that's where it began.  I had read commentaries upon commentaries, I had read books upon books, and yet, I could not understand the Word--I couldn't put the Bible together.  There were things that did not fit, and what one person said about a certain verse of scripture, another equally intelligent person contradicted what that person said. 

 

 

And when I went into the ministry in Nineteen Hundred and Forty One (1941), in Payne Ohio--and perhaps the finest people that we still have left from Payne, Ohio are Mr. and Mrs. Cleon White, who come here occasionally from Van Wert.  But Cleon White was the man who met us at the time when we first went to Payne, Ohio.  And we took that little church there and, it was in Nineteen Hundred and Forty One that we started out there.  But by Nineteen Hundred and Forty Two, I realized that the things that I had learned in the seminaries were wonderful; I enjoyed the--the--the mental gymnastics of the theological seminaries; I enjoyed the keenness of the Theologians; I enjoyed all of these things.  But, what I learned there wasn't good in practice--it did not work with the people who had a need.  For those people who came to church every Sunday and who bought the bricks in that place, and who wouldn't go away if the Devil himself preached there, they still hold on to the church, they came every Sunday anyway.  I knew--I-I saw this the first year.  They'd come no matter what you taught in that place, they'd come because they got their money in the bricks or in the boards or in the sidewalks and therefore they hold on to it no matter what's taught.  But, the first year in my ministry there, I found out that when there was real need, not among that group, but among the others who occasionally came to the church--or some who never "disgraced the place" as they called it, with their presence--I couldn't help 'em.  And this began to bother me.

 

 

Why was it that a man could go through four years of college and about five years of seminary, at that time; have a bachelors of arts, a bachelor of divinity, a masters of theology and all of my work finished for a PHD with the exception of about seven credits--being out there in the ministry and not being able to get the job done?  I saw my farmers out there farm, they got the corn crop, they got the wheat, they got the oats, they got the corn, but inside of the church, I couldn't see any results.  Oh, it was nice to have the chicken dinners and the little family affairs you go to, you know, and the women's guild that--men's brotherhood, all of that, but no real results.  And I got sort of sick in my heart, and I began praying that God would show me how this Word was put together--because all I did was what the average person still does; he just reads a verse of scripture and then reads a commentary on it and preaches what the commentary says.  Or he gets an idea of what it means but never able to fit the scripture from Genesis to Revelation.  And I had read so many books and saw so much contradiction that it was impossible for me to be able to teach the Word. 

 

 

I remember one meeting of the Evangelical and Reformed ministers in the early days of my ministry.  This is about six--seven months after I was in the ministry. I was asked to speak to this group, meeting up North.  And I spoke to them what I believed was the truth of God's Word, and that is that "The least a Christian could do was to tithe."  And being a young minister in the church, those ministers almost laughed me out of the meeting.  They said, "Well, Wierwille, are you that stupid that you think that we, as Christian ministers, should still tithe?"  And I said, "Yes, don't you?"  And they said, "No, we don't tithe." One minister in that whole group tithed--and Anna Shwere you'd know who it was if I named him.  He was in that meeting--only one, and he said--he said, "Well, I've tithed ever since I've been a Christian." But all the rest of 'em said, "No, we don't give our tithes." And that shook me, it hurt me, because I thought, certainly the ministers, if they were going to head up the congregation would do as much or more than they would ask their people to do.  That was shock number one, and it was a dandy--it didn't leave me--it left me numb and never got me back to my senses for about four weeks, I just couldn't imagine. 

 

 

And so, all of this stuff began to build.  And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word."  And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus.  Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day: "That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!"  "Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed. My denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God." 

 

 

And I thought that was terrific!  But during the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit.  It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day.  And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous!  And there wasn't a cloud in the sky.  And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me. 

 

 

I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know.  Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow."  And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky  'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it.  And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day.  And I sat in that little office and I cried like a baby, because I guess it was about my time to cry, because I'd grown up but didn't know the Word. 

 

 

And from that day on and He'd promised to teach me the Word, I have tried with all my heart, from time to time--all along, to learn this Word. One of the reasons there are sections of the Word perhaps that I--I don't know, because I do too much cement pouring and a few other items that have to be done and that have to be taken care of. But I am absolutely confident that there is no portion of God's Word that God would not teach me and unfold to me if I studied the Word to show myself approved unto Him by rightly dividing it. 

 

 

And that began the ministry that has cost me, sense-knowledge, more than anybody will ever realize--except those of us who've gone through it. It gives ya' a whole set of new friends.  It caused people, heads of my denomination, through various times when I appeared teaching, like in India, even to write letters against me that I was not a member of the denomination at all--and I'd been born in the lousy place.  Isn't that something?  And I have them on file--have them in my files, you ought to see 'em, I got a sheet this big. 

 

 

These are prices you pay. Then you say, well, why don't I reciprocate? Because, people, you can't fight and work the Word too. You can't be fighting all the time and trying to defend yourself against the unbelievers, because the unbelievers are many more than the believers. And we've got only one job to do, as far as my life is concerned, and that is to teach the Word. Whether anybody believes it or not, that's not my responsibility. But to teach it is my responsibility, because He said He'd teach me the Word if I would do one thing--teach it. 

 

 

Now in order to teach it, I have to study the Word; and when I study it, He shows it to me, then I can teach it. I think a lot of you people know these Bible students that are in here tonight, and we have among our people gathered here tonight, like almost every Sunday night, some of the finest Bible students in the world today. We have Bible students in here to whom no theologian in the entire world can hold a candle when it comes to the rightly dividing and the understanding of God's Word. I think every person in here knows that they can work the Word and they do work it. They get wonderful light and they contribute a great deal to The Way ministry and the light that's taught out of The Way ministry. But when these people bring their light on the Word to me and I have the opportunity to hear it--it doesn't take me but one reading or one hearing and I can, usually, without working it too far, I can pick out the error or pick the good that they bring and fit it right in. 

 

 

But this is what God raised me to and when He gave me that revelation, and that was a real phenomena or phenomenon. From that day on--this was in Payne, Ohio where this happened, light began to dawn. But you can't learn the whole Word in one night. Therefore, you study the Word--you study it. I suppose I read Genesis chapter one through eleven a thousand times. I don't know how many times you've read it, but I imagine a thousand times is a low number that I have read Genesis, chapter one through eleven.  Because I was taught that Genesis one through eleven had at least four or five different authors--you know, the J-P-D documents, this kind of stuff. I'd been taught all of this. 

 

 

And so I'd read the Word; I'd read it--I'd read it. Then I'd work, start looking--start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light--men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others--many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it. 

 

 

Perhaps the greatest one to move in the category of what I learned here in Acts four and five, to start the greatness of this thing, was a woman by the name of Rosalind Rinker. Some of you people were--will know her today because she was here in Lima, Ohio less than a year ago--or a year and a half ago. Ah, she travels and works with a woman named Jeanie Price. Jeanie Price is quite an author--writes books that are published by Zondervan, if I remember correctly. Rosalind Rinker had been on the mission field in Korea, if I remember correctly--someplace out East. Korea doesn't sound right to me, I've forgotten now where she was.  Where?  Was it China?  I think you're right. 

 

 

And a lady by the name of Aletta Yacob had come through from Africa and stopped on her way back to the United States in China. And, this woman, Aletta Yacob, had been filled with the spirit in Africa, and had been operating manifestations of the spirit and things were booming. You know, light was dawning, and people were getting saved and other things happening in Africa that were just beginning to swell--the thing. So she stopped in China, and had a series of evangelistic meetings there and all she allowed to come--or all they allowed to come, were the missionaries, their wives and their children. And they had oodles of conversions among the missionaries, their wives and their children. One of those women who got converted, was Rosalind Rinker who'd been on the mission field for sixteen years--before.

 

 

By the way, Aletta Yacob left China, started back home and her ship was bombed in the Pacific and she lost her life. But Rosalind Rinker came back from the mission field and I was doing a monthly piece of writing for a magazine out of Indiana. Remember the name of the magazine? In Butler, Indiana--I forget the title of the magazine; I used to be a regular contributing editor toward it, each week--each month.  Pardon?  No, it wasn't Christian Advocate. I forget the name of it. But anyways, it was the Higgley Press at Butler, Indiana--it's still there by the way. Ah--Pardon? No, that was Bloomfield--I was with that too, that was Dr. Bloomfield. Ahm, I was in Butler, Indiana at the Higgley Press with my article and talking to the boss, Mr. Higgley, and when we walked back through the building, he introduced me to this woman, Rosalind Rinker. And, we got acquainted just in a brief period of time and somehow or other, it gelled within my heart to say to her "Well, why don't you come over to our house and spend a week?"  And she said, "Well, I'll just do it." And that was a surprise to me because the average person who had a depth of religion usually said to me, "Well, I'll pray about it." Ah, that was the usual attitude that I'd run into, by this time. But, you know, if they had any depth of spirituality, like the boys that graduate from Moody, Wheaton and the rest of them, they would always say to me, "We have gotta take time out and pray about it." 

 

 

But this woman, had found something out there under Aletta Yacob. She had tapped something and she knew that when somebody said to her do so-in-so, if the time was right, it was God's will for her to walk in. So I said to her, "Would you like to come for a week or so with us?" and she said, "Yes, I will." I said, "When will you come?" She said "I'll be there Saturday or Sunday" I forget what. Lo and behold, here she came. You know what we did? When she came, I wanted her to speak to our church group, but she had no interest in that. She said, "I want to talk to you." And we sat down in that same office where I'd had this revelation from the Lord; she began dealing with me in the Word. And, "Boy," I thought to myself, "how can a woman have this much knowledge of the Word?" And she told me she had learned all of this within the last six--seven months! 

 

 

And she took me--that had been through all these colleges and seminaries and had almost my work for my doctors degree finished--she just takes me and winds me around her finger with the knowledge of God's Word--I didn't know any of God's Word compared to her. I'd quote her some theologian, she said "That don't mean anything to me. What does the Word say?" And she pinned me down, and she took me into the Word, and showed me that it was the Word that counted and not what a theologian said or what a man said but what does the Word say? And she kept backing me up against the wall--whole week long.  Just, night after night, day after day, that's all she did. 

 

 

So, one evening, after everybody else had gone to bed, she and I went into the church and we knelt at the pulpit chairs up in front, and we prayed together, and that was the second great night of my life. When, during the course of that week-end, she told me that God was showing her that He had something very special for me to do, and that I should teach the Word.  I forget what this all is about, but it's on the flyleaf of our class on Power For Abundant Living. It is she who made that statement that's on that cover, you know, that red-green-yellow thing that we give out for the classes on Power For Abundant Living. Her statement that she--this isn't the exact words but the essence of it--of what she said is on that sheet. And that greatness of God substantiating to her, what He had already told me, corroborated something in my heart. And that just blessed my soul. 

 

 

This sent us on a quest, and of course, one of the reasons I'm headed for this story in here tonight is because, she took me through this fourth chapter. She didn't understand it as fully as I understand it now. But she understood enough of the fourth and the fifth chapter of Acts that she made me sit up and pay attention and know that God's Word was more in here than what I was doing or asking my people to do. 

 

 

But in order to complete something here that God would have me to say now; was at--many years later, along towards forty-six, forty-seven--forty-eight, forty-nine--those years when I was so hungry for God's Word. I used to run anyplace where there was knowledge on God's Word. If I heard of a meeting in--in Arkansas where they were having a meeting along the line of God's Word, I'd jump a plane or take a train to go there.

 

 

And I had a wonderful group of Elders in the church in Van Wert at that time. All I would do is call the head Elder and tell him, "I won't be there on Sunday, I've asked Reverend so-in-so to come."  Many a time I did this on Thursday night or Friday of the week, and tell him I wouldn't be there on Sunday morning.  How would you have enjoyed to been a member of my congregation? You'd never know who your preacher might be next Sunday morning. I was off and runnin' again. 

 

 

But there was a hunger in my heart and God said He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, but I had to study, I had to work. And revelation begins--this is why I know this so well--revelation begins where the senses cease. What you can know by your senses, God expects you to know. He expects you to study the work that have already been worked out. Men like Bulinger; men like Stevie Ginsberg; God expected me to work those men and countless others. But, He taught me how to get the error out when there was any. And out of that process He taught me then, what was truth. And when there was no way of knowing it, and I'd researched to my fullest ability--tried to find out, then, if there is no other way, He showed it to me by direct revelation. Time and time again, He'd take the scripture and make it this big. I'm reading along in a verse and all at once there it is, two words, this big, for instance. Well, you have to be stupid to miss it, you know.

 

 

So I began running, and people, I literally ran all over. I finally started making some trips abroad. I was very much interested in missions, foreign mission--very much. So I started to make some trips to Central America, to see for myself first hand just exactly what was happening on the mission field. And when I got out to the mission field, I found it so surprisingly revolting to me that I couldn't tell it--I couldn't tell it. When I got back to the United States, I couldn't tell it, all I could do is show pretty pictures of the buildings and the nice banana plantations. But they had no more light on the mission field than I had back in the states. Well how could they have, we graduated from the same theological seminaries came out of the same denomination. How could we have any more light there than I had back home, but at that time I didn't know that--right.

 

 

So I began questing in all of these fields. And every time I quested, God showed me light--brought people around. And that's why, as the Word began to move, when great truths--like today I teach the four crucified with Jesus. You know we got people in the class--nobody in the class believes it, when I start it, nobody. 'Cause they've all seen the picture of two crucified with Jesus, nobody believes it--unless one of The Way grads has been to 'em before the class, that's all. But if they have never sat under the ministry that we represent or where our ministry has reached out, they're--they're--they're shocked at this thing, they just don't believe it. And yet, within one half hour--to forty-five minutes, every person in the class believes it, sometimes as high as eighteen different denominations, men and women of great difference in ages and mental ability. And yet every one of them sees the truth of God's Word, they stand put on it. 

 

 

And I remember when I first taught this, when people heard about it, I got letters back. I was a heretic.  Oh, and they said such nice things about me, all of this stuff.  I was lying, I was trying to tear the Bible apart. Well, what would you do? All I did was kept on working. And as I learned something, I would teach it. When I learned a little more of it, I'd teach it. And that's how we grew. That's why this ministry is among us tonight--not because, primarily of who I am, but because, primarily of what the Word represents in our day and our age.  That's right.  And therefore, when I knew the Word, I have never backed down on the Word of God--never--that I could remember. If I did, somebody oughta--boot me. I have stood up against my friends at times and said, "You are wrong, that's not what the Word says." I have seen people turn the other way and walk the other way, after I have told them this. But I have never backed down on the Word, and this is one reason why it has cost me so much. Because, at times, sense knowledge wise, it'd be a lot easier to back down on the Word than it is to say to someone, "This is God's Word."

 

 

Right in this section where we're dealing tonight--where we're going to be dealing, as we get winding this thing up after a bit--right in here is where many people go the other way. It's just like Jesus; they didn't follow him any longer because something else happened. So it is here. But the greatness of this ministry lays in the hearts of our people who mean business for God, and if you're concerned about the accuracy of the Word. We have no axe to grind with any denomination or any group of people. We have only one Word and that's the greatness of God's Word. And, ladies and gentlemen, if we are heretics because we rightly divide the Word, I'd rather be a heretic with the Lord than be alright being dead wrong--or somethin'--I don't know how we figured that one. That's right. I'd rather be right with the Lord than with the whole bunch of you in here tonight. And I'm sure you'd rather be right with the Lord than with the whole bunch in here tonight. 

 

 

And the Word has to have the preeminence. And that's why you people, some of you in here again tonight--like every Sunday night, come from distant places to be in here--travel, many of you, hundreds of miles to be in here on a Sunday night for the teaching ministry. Some of you don't travel quite that far, New Bremen; New Knoxville--a few other places. You're close in but some of the rest of 'em travel a lot farther. The thing that has to live is the greatness of the Word, and this has to continue to live within you and you have to walk on it.

 

 

There are very few people who can stand the pressure of time. You maybe walk on the ministry one month and the second month something gets to ya'--then it's over with. If you stay a year, somebody oughta give ya' a medal.  If you can stay two years, I don't know what ya' oughta to have.  But if you can stay as long as the Kupps and the Permins and the Jones's and some of the rest of ya, God must have somethin' real special in store for you. That's all I can say. Because there's hardly anybody that can stick through the pressure of the thing. Because, as all of you people know, once you start teaching the Word--in your community--really setting down the Word of God as it's accurately written, and making people say, "This is what the Word says, and not what you think or I think, or what Johnny Jumpup thinks, or Snowball Pete or Henry Boloko, but this is what the Word says," the people are gonna say "Hey, what's the matter with you? That's not the way I've been taught." Huh, huh, huh! What's the difference how you've been taught? Is it the accuracy of God's Word? When people come up with that argument, "Well that's not the way I've been taught," then you say to them, "Well, why don't you just--still dress in the same old dress Great Grandma dressed in, then?"  "Why don't you still farm the same way you farmed fifty years ago, if that's the way you've been brought up." It's a wonderful thing how we can move ahead in everything else, but no person has a right to move on the Word of God--you've got to stay within the confines.  It must be a "trip" isn't it?  It surely is a trip.  

 

 

The greatest thing in the world, God's Word, we oughta walk on it. We oughta learn more tomorrow than we know tonight--day after that we oughta know more than we know tomorrow. We oughta keep growing in God's Word. One of the reasons this ministry stands today, yet, is because I have stood for the Word whenever the Word was known to me. And it has been no disgrace to me at times to say; "I don't know the Word." But when I've known it and I've stood on it, I have stayed put--and that's why it lives.  This ministry would die within one month's time if we didn't stand.  Somebody's got to stand. 

 

 

Now, this week, when we go to Minnesota again, to teach--you know what the problems will be. Be like in all the scriptures, some believe, some said we'll hear you again, some disbelieve. So what? The right that we have to teach it and the right for our people to learn it and then the people to stand, that's the greatness of it. Well, that's a little background. Father says, "That's it."--so we go on.

 

 

 

Where does one find these SNS/SNT transcripts? Archive.org has all the recordings, so does YouTube, but I can't find the transcripts.

It's easier for me to read them than to listen to that serpentine voice. And in reading them, without any effort, the factual, practical, doctrinal errors leap off the page. The contradictions. The logical fallacies. The bull$hit histrionics. The dark persuasion.

Does an online repository for this bull$hit exist?

 

**It truly breaks my heart that human beings are so gullible that they believe ANY of this bull$hit. At this point for me, it's all wretch and no vomit. 

[chockfull]

I was just curious as to what light was supposed to dawn in that teaching by selling your stuff and giving it to the way int.

A curious light begins to appear as dawn breaks slowly over the horizon. The light grows and grows until it appears brightly in the sky as 

YOUR GULLIBILITY 

[OldSkool]

44 minutes ago, chockfull said:

I was just curious as to what light was supposed to dawn in that teaching by selling your stuff and giving it to the way int.

A curious light begins to appear as dawn breaks slowly over the horizon. The light grows and grows until it appears brightly in the sky as 

YOUR GULLIBILITY 

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

I was just curious as to what light was supposed to dawn in that teaching by selling your stuff and giving it to the way int.

A curious light begins to appear as dawn breaks slowly over the horizon. The light grows and grows until it appears brightly in the sky as 

YOUR GULLIBILITY 

 

What light through yonder mindset breaks?

A.      Opening the fridge door, the little light comes – you see the fridge is empty – then it dawns on you that TWI forgot to pick up the fridge. 

B.      A week later as the sun rises – you wake up on the hardwood floor – you had used the PFAL book as a pillow – and a few opened Way Magazines as covers. With the morning sunlight now flooding the empty room (even the red drapes were gone) you begin reviewing the PFAL book. Then it dawns on you – you shouldn’t have been so quick to send in your abundant sharing before paying the electric bill. 

C.       That evening roused from a weird dream of attending PFAL ’77 for 10 years straight - you see bright headlights pull up in the driveway. Who could that be? Then it dawns on you – tonight you’re supposed to host a public ex for the new PFAL Today class. 

D.      After awkwardly explaining on the fly to everyone there was a mix-up of your order at the Rooms-To-Go Outlet and coincidentally for some inexplicable reason there is an isolated power outage at your home – they all left - except for the new branch coordinator. Having the uncanny sense to realize your misfortune, he offers to move into your home and bless you with a lot of corps notes and select Advanced Class memorabilia. Then it dawns on you - maybe it’s a sign you should give him the house so you could go Way Ambassador.

[waysider]

Can someone please tell me what great truth I was supposed to find hidden in all that drivel?

[OldSkool]

9 minutes ago, waysider said:

Can someone please tell me what great truth I was supposed to find hidden in all that drivel?

You have to arrange the proper anagram.

[Nathan_Jr]

27 minutes ago, waysider said:

Can someone please tell me what great truth I was supposed to find hidden in all that drivel?

If your god won't give you revelation not to lose the hunting knife Eldo purchased for you last year, don't worry (beleevers don't worry), Eldo will bring you another one. Eldo is a good little fish. He doesn't even care if you remember where he works. It doesn't matter that you care about him. It only matters that he beleeves your bull$hit and gives you cash... and hunting knives that you can't seem to beleeve big enough for to keep up with.

Bless your little hearts. I wish you could invent it... um, ha, ha..,. Oh, boy...READ it in the original. That's riiight.

[Twinky]

Okay, I read more of the bl00dy transcript.  And what it reads like, to me, is a list of the people he plagiarised.  And the women he bonked in the early stages of his "ministry."

 

(Am feeling a bit jaded and cynical this morning.)

[Nathan_Jr]

18 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Where does one find these SNS/SNT transcripts? Archive.org has all the recordings, so does YouTube, but I can't find the transcripts.

 

Can anyone provide a link to the online repository or shared drive containing these SNS/SNT transcripts?

 

[Nathan_Jr]

On 9/20/2022 at 3:14 PM, WordWolf said:

"I remember one meeting of the Evangelical and Reformed ministers in the early days of my ministry.  This is about six--seven months after I was in the ministry. I was asked to speak to this group, meeting up North.  And I spoke to them what I believed was the truth of God's Word, and that is that "The least a Christian could do was to tithe."  And being a young minister in the church, those ministers almost laughed me out of the meeting.  They said, "Well, Wierwille, are you that stupid that you think that we, as Christian ministers, should still tithe?"  And I said, "Yes, don't you?"  And they said, "No, we don't tithe." One minister in that whole group tithed--and Anna Shwere you'd know who it was if I named him.  He was in that meeting--only one, and he said--he said, "Well, I've tithed ever since I've been a Christian." But all the rest of 'em said, "No, we don't give our tithes." And that shook me, it hurt me, because I thought, certainly the ministers, if they were going to head up the congregation would do as much or more than they would ask their people to do.  That was shock number one, and it was a dandy--it didn't leave me--it left me numb and never got me back to my senses for about four weeks, I just couldn't imagine.  " 

-----------------------------------------------------

There goes the "all other ministers are incompetent and insincere" thing.  Supposedly, a roomful of ministers, and only ONE tithed, and the others said it was STUPID to think they would tithe.    

Sorry, I think this is one of those examples of something vpw did quite a bit called a bald-faced lie.  I don't think this meeting ever happened, and those insincere ministers never existed.     But this made-up story is an excuse for vpw to leave his denomination and claim he "had it" and they did not.

This is a near perfect encapsulation of victor's lies and bull$hit and obfuscation and blame-shifting and guilt-tripping and fecal evacuation into the mouth of God. Hearing this paragraph of word salad hypnotically preached, one may miss all the nuanced error and manipulation. But to READ it... the seeded error just LEAPS off the page!

 

Is tithing the LEAST a Christian could do?? Really? Is it? Is this written in the Bible? Or does one need to WORK the words of the Bible to make them fit this opinion? 

THEN the question very quickly shifts to the least a Christian MINISTER could do. It's all a straw man tactic to then condemn the other ministers as incorrect, while victor alone with one other is righteous.

And THEN, again, he shifts to the poor me victim, so hurt and shocked that these other ministers wouldn't accept his carnal opinion. Look at how pious victor is! Never does he "work" the words of the Bible to prove his asserted claim.

 

This paragraph is truly a textbook example of how (H-O-W) victor spews error and subtle, nuanced, serpentine deception and obfuscation.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
How (H-O-W) wrong was wierwille? Turns out he was dead wrong.

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

This paragraph is truly a textbook example of how (H-O-W) victor spews error and subtle, nuanced, serpentine deception and obfuscation.

Its all that and worse. Christians are under no obligation to tithe. We aren't under the law and the tithe was to take care of the Levites who took care of the temple. The Levites were to do the tithe of tithes oe heave offerings where they would tithe off of the tithes they received to cover the high priest. That's all done away with. Christians are told to give as they purpose in their hearts to do so and to be cheerful about it as well, because God loves a cheerful giver. Mr. Biblical Research should have known better.

Edited September 22, 2022 by OldSkool

[Nathan_Jr]

28 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Its all that and worse. Christians are under no obligation to tithe. We aren't under the law and the tithe was to take care of the Levites who took care of the temple. The Levites were to do the tithe of tithes oe heave offerings where they would tithe off of the tithes they received to cover the high priest. That's all done away with. Christians are told to give as they purpose in their hearts to do so and to be cheerful about it as well, because God loves a cheerful giver. Mr. Biblical Research should have known better.

Right! This has been discussed many times here. (The second time established it.) He might have known better, BUT like so much of his mouth vomit, it was all about manipulation, not about accuracy. Victor wanted to git money. Git that money, vic! 

God doesn't need nor want your money for anything. Giving money to a man made corporation set up by victor proves NOTHING to God or anyone, except that you got hooked like a fish. It can happen to anyone, because the thief is skilled.

Having the awareness to see that it happened to you is real growth. No longer being deceived by such a hireling is real spiritual maturity.

[skyrider]

On 9/21/2022 at 12:39 PM, WordWolf said:

skyrider's mentioned him before. 

From the thread, "Keys to the City."

"p. 131 Born Again to Serve

"On November 21, 22, and 23 in the city of Ujjain, Dr. Wierwille addressed a three-day annual convention of the Terapanthi Jains, knownas the Anuverat Movement. Dr. Wierwille was the first Christian ever to be invited to address this body. The Jains are a sect of Hindus and their leader was Acharaya Shri Tulsi, who spent much time in private telling us about the whole movement and asking questions of us. Dr. Wierwille remarked, 'I can say that the Acharaya is doing much for the building up of the moral and ethical structure of the Indian peoples.'"

No....I don't doubt that wierwille addressed this convention....BUT all evidence show that Dr. I.S. Williams was the prominent Christian man in this Hindu meeting and translated for wierwille. From what I see, wierwille got to preach for 15-20 minutes.....and that was it. The Jain convention lasted for 3 days......kinda like wierwille getting to speak at the "ROA Family Tables" as a sideshow to a much larger event. BIG DEAL..........hahahahahaha

=======================

From "Ash Heap of TWI-story":

"The Terapanth Jains is a sub-sect movement of the two major sects in Jainism, Svetambara and Digambara. When wierwille

claimed to be "the first-ever christian to address the Jain Convention".....what that meant was Dr. Williams ushered vpw

in as a guest speaker to address a splinter group of the Svetambara sect of Jainism in Ujjain, India.

Not Bombay.....not Delhi.....not Calcutta.......not Jabalpur.

Ujjain, India which today has a population of some 515,000 --- Click Here

For those who might want to see the graphic outline of Jainism and its sects,

[from Wikipedia] the following link is provided. Scroll down to #10 Denominations -- Click Here - Jainism

------------------------

From "Planting a cult one weed at a time",

"

"The haughtiness of wierwille's narcissism wreaks thru even this sanitized edition of wierwille's legacy.

But there is no mistaking that wierwille stole B.G.'s class outright and ran it as his own........and then, plagiarized from other men's works to add filler and pass it off as his own research (cough, cough).  When the timeline is followed........there was NO WAY wierwille had any inkling of a "twi" or class-based system when he barged into Leonard's class in Calgary, Alberta.  Again, arrogance and narcissism.  Even the pictures in Mrs. W's book.........show that wierwille was a nobody, a back-bencher around other men of the cloth. 

And, Dr. Williams the president of the All-India Federation of National Churches AND pastor of the St. Paul's Hindustani Church in Byculla, Bombay AND strict devotee of Indian history........was host to the wierwilles during that India itinerary.  Dr. Williams is the one who opened ALL THE DOORS and gave vpw access into the Jain Convention, where this western Christian (wierwille) was granted a 20-30 minute teaching in a week long festival.  Yawn.  How many of them would even remember his name?  How many of them took this as an opportunity to go use the restroom?  Dr. Williams translated for vpw.  Wanna bet that out of respect for Dr. Williams the American got to even speak at all?"

-------------------------------------------

From "A couple of questions about VPW"

"Then.....12 years later (1956)......wierwille, wife and kids, go on that India itinerary.  Wierwille's narcissism is writing checks that his ministry (cough, cough) couldn't cash.  Through contacts with Bishop K.C. Pillai.....a Dr. I. S. Williams becomes their host upon arrival.  Interestingly, Mrs. Wierwille's book references this man as "Dr. J. S. Williams (perhaps, the scribbled notes at the time were the reason for this mistake....or something else?).   Dr. Williams was a prominent and distinguished man.  Dr. I. S. Williams was president of the All-India Federation of Churches  and pastor of the St. Paul's Hindustani Church in Byculla, Bombay and devotee of Indian history.....and more.

Wierwille, in his narcissistic realm, embellishes this huge storyline in pfal of his India experience.  Yet, truth be told......it was Dr. I. S. Williams that was well-respected and highly prominent to religious and political officeholders.....and therefore, doors DID OPEN because Williams was the man that opened them.  Not wierwille.  And, all that bloviating in pfal of teaching the Word of God at the Jain Convention......when in reality, wierwille spoke for about 20-30 minutes (translated by Williams) in a week-long convention. " 

==============================

 

 

Interesting background information on Bishop K.C. Pillai ...... from Mrs. Wierwille's book.

• "Bishop Pillai had made arrangements with Dr. Williams to be our host in India.  There couldn't have been a better person for this assignment.  It was definitely God's providence that we should be making our missionary teaching tour at a time when Dr. Williams could be our host." [p. 125]
• "During the years prior to India's independence in 1948, many of the Indian revolutionaries were imprisoned for trying to oust the British.  During those times, Dr. Williams contributed to the independence movement by personally carrying communications to and from these patriots.  He was trusted to take correspondence and messages to those who would later become the highest political leaders in the Indian government, men such as Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, Vice President Dr. Radha Krishna, and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, the father of India." [p. 126]
• "Because of Dr. Williams's contacts and credibility, it was possible for Dr. Wierwille to meet personally, if he so desired, with the current president and any of the cabinet members in India's government and many governors of provinces." [p. 126]
• Note:  emphasis added to Mrs. Wierwille's quotes.

#################

So.....Bishop Pillai had personal communications and access to Dr. Williams and requested that Dr. Williams host the Wierwille family during the travels throughout India.

#################

Now....background on Pillai.  Page 96

Exact quotes from her book.  Look at Dorothy's statements in second paragraph......LOL

"In the summer of 1953 Dr. Wierwille's brother Harry went to Tennessee to visit a Christian children's camp called the 'Tennessee Mountain Mission,' which he was financially supporting.  While there, Harry decided one evening to attend a nearby Baptist church in Chattanooga, where an Anglican bishop from India was scheduled to speak.  This speaker was Bishop K. C. Pillai.  After hearing Bishop Pillai that evening, Harry called Dr. Wierwille and enthusiastically told him of the teaching and asked Dr. Wierwille if he should bring him to Van Wert since 'the Bishop,' as we called him, had a couple of days open before his next engagement.  Doctor responded, 'If he's that good, you better bring him here!'  Hastily we scheduled a few meetings, and Dr. Wierwille set aside personal time to spend with the Bishop."

"It is no secret that Dr. Wierwille was always in search of greater knowledge and understanding of God's Word.  He felt there was so much more to know than he knew.  One reason he had inadequate knowledge of the Bible was that he had in his formal education studied theological and other writings instead of having focused on the Bible itself.  So he was forever continuing his quest to see God's Word, rightly-divided."

Hence.......vpw was always plagiarizing from others to present himself as someone he was not.

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

On 9/20/2022 at 1:50 PM, WordWolf said:

"That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!" 

 

What else is God not able to do?

 

[WordWolf]

46 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

 

What else is God not able to do?

 

That's probably one of the reasons that particular phrasing was phased out. vpw kept changing the way his alleged "1942 promise" was phrased when he supposedly was told something by God Almighty.    It's like he had to try out different versions until he found one he liked enough to keep.  

Yes, he claimed that God Almighty had been unable to teach ANY Christian anywhere in the WORLD for about 2000 years at that level, and was waiting for this alcoholic rapist to finally come along.  Despite having been an impious youth and a poor worker, and being bad-tempered, addicted to tobacco and alcohol, and prone to sexually exploiting women and making opportunities to do so, vpw supposedly was THE man who God Almighty could connect with.  There was no other, better-suited Christian ready to step up in all the world in all those centuries.

 

For almost everybody, this is hard to swallow.  For a tiny handful of people, the response is "Yes, of course." 

[WordWolf]

21 hours ago, Twinky said:

Okay, I read more of the bl00dy transcript.  And what it reads like, to me, is a list of the people he plagiarised.  And the women he bonked in the early stages of his "ministry."

 

(Am feeling a bit jaded and cynical this morning.)

I don't know about the other women.  The reason it sounds so specifically like that with his account of RR is because he DID boink RR. He spoke around it here, but the language was so idiosyncratic that I figured out that's what he was trying not to admit.  Months later, someone who knew posted confirmation that vpw had, indeed, boinked RR.

[Nathan_Jr]

8 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

until he found one he...

...could make fit like a hand...

Edited September 23, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
...in a glove

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

 

What else is God not able to do?

 

After the 1st century God was not able to get “the Word” out until wierwille came along.

 

God is not able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think unless we believe He can.

 

God is not able to count up to 4 or He would have had it clearly written that there were 4 crucified with His Son.

 

God is not able to make a rock He cannot lift until His needs and wants are parallel and when His willingness equals His ability.

 

God is not able to save someone until He knows what to do with them after He saves them.

 

God is not able to spit in your direction until the cult-leader gets paid.

 

God is not able to do as He full well pleases until He loves Himself and loves His neighbor  (Jesus Christ and/or the Holy Spirit ) as He loves Himself.

 

God is not able to give anything but what He is - God.

 

God is not able to speak to anyone but God.

 

God is not able to get big and fat spiritually until He speaks in tongues a lot!

 

God is not able until wierwille says He’s able.

 

God is not Abel - he be dead longtime.

Edited September 23, 2022 by T-Bone
Can you believe it I missspellledd Abel or is it Able?

[Rocky]

29 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

That's probably one of the reasons that particular phrasing was phased out. vpw kept changing the way his alleged "1942 promise" was phrased when he supposedly was told something by God Almighty.    It's like he had to try out different versions until he found one he liked enough to keep.  

Yes, he claimed that God Almighty had been unable to teach ANY Christian anywhere in the WORLD for about 2000 years at that level, and was waiting for this alcoholic rapist to finally come along.  Despite having been an impious youth and a poor worker, and being bad-tempered, addicted to tobacco and alcohol, and prone to sexually exploiting women and making opportunities to do so, vpw supposedly was THE man who God Almighty could connect with.  There was no other, better-suited Christian ready to step up in all the world in all those centuries.

 

For almost everybody, this is hard to swallow.  For a tiny handful of people, the response is "Yes, of course." 

Because that tiny handful of people are/were blinded by the light. Or blinded somehow anyway. This takes me back to Dacher Keltner's 2016 book, The Power Paradox. Wierwille is vividly and easily recognized in the four power principles Keltner together says are all about abuse of power.

 

[OldSkool]

5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I don't know about the other women.  The reason it sounds so specifically like that with his account of RR is because he DID boink RR. He spoke around it here, but the language was so idiosyncratic that I figured out that's what he was trying not to admit.  Months later, someone who knew posted confirmation that vpw had, indeed, boinked RR.

I didn't know but had stong suspiscions from reading that goofy transcript. Yes Mike, I read the thing in it's entirety - even stopped to disect some of the statements which is when that statement about Rinker was screaming at me. I can't help but think it was creepy when he said they went to the Church to pray after everyone else had gone to bed and the everyone else in this case was his wife and kids.

It makes me wonder if this was common knowledge back then and the people he was payin lipservice to where his inner circle at the time. Martindale had that inner circle thing going too - his inner clique that would pimp for him and arrange situations for his affairs. Somehow I tend to think that wierwille came up with the method and Martindale simply put his methods into play and likely improved upon them a bit. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by OldSkool

[Twinky]

When I was in rez, LCM commented one time (lunch time "sharing"?) that he sometimes walked the corridors in Founders Hall, praying for the people there.  I'm very much a night owl and there were a couple of quiet but public places I'd go and sit and read or study or write letters.  I always hoped I'd see this great "man of God" and be able to speak with him on his perambulations.  But I never saw him, was a bit disappointed.  I wondered if perhaps he roamed some of the other corridors.

Once I learned of his abuse of females (graduated corps, not in rez Corps). then it made sense. 

I'm guessing he was visiting some female(s) in the other parts of Founders Hall.  And his comment was to cover himself if anybody saw him in the Hall at some strange hour of night, when he might be expected to be in that fancy wooden house.  And his comment about praying was, I began to assume, misunderstood.  He was walking about PREYING on people, not praying for them.

[chockfull]

Ok I went and read through a good portion of the linked thread and now I’m tired lol 

The main topics are detail around the origin of the 42 promise, RR, and the origin story of TWI.

Good commentary by C and R and many other old posters.  I contributed detail also about VP doctorate degree.

You know I still am not 100% sure whether or not mike is a genuine person entity or a persona of a leader.  But in the end it does not matter either way.

The gist of the view is that the 42 promise showed VP to be a “divine assimilator” by revelation from God and as such plagiarism does not matter as that is man’s law.

That would also be the common Twi follower viewpoint.

That view provides consistency and whitewash so is a comfortable space for people to exist.  And many are there and will never leave.

Is it the truth?

Well the interesting part is HOW and WHO he credits.  He talks about many whose pictures are in Founders room E Stanley Clarke, Rufus Mosley.

Yet BG Leonard and JE Stiles are notably missing?  Why?  Because those he stole from mostest were ghosted most?  Why American Christian Press?  $$ savings, direct publishing without 3rd party editor requirement.

You can repeat a lie so many times that people become comfortable with it and accept it as an axiomatic truth.

[chockfull]

On 9/21/2022 at 7:15 PM, T-Bone said:

 

What light through yonder mindset breaks?

A.      Opening the fridge door, the little light comes – you see the fridge is empty – then it dawns on you that TWI forgot to pick up the fridge. 

B.      A week later as the sun rises – you wake up on the hardwood floor – you had used the PFAL book as a pillow – and a few opened Way Magazines as covers. With the morning sunlight now flooding the empty room (even the red drapes were gone) you begin reviewing the PFAL book. Then it dawns on you – you shouldn’t have been so quick to send in your abundant sharing before paying the electric bill. 

C.       That evening roused from a weird dream of attending PFAL ’77 for 10 years straight - you see bright headlights pull up in the driveway. Who could that be? Then it dawns on you – tonight you’re supposed to host a public ex for the new PFAL Today class. 

D.      After awkwardly explaining on the fly to everyone there was a mix-up of your order at the Rooms-To-Go Outlet and coincidentally for some inexplicable reason there is an isolated power outage at your home – they all left - except for the new branch coordinator. Having the uncanny sense to realize your misfortune, he offers to move into your home and bless you with a lot of corps notes and select Advanced Class memorabilia. Then it dawns on you - maybe it’s a sign you should give him the house so you could go Way Ambassador.

T Bone,

were you in my WOW family?

[waysider]

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

You know I still am not 100% sure whether or not mike is a genuine person entity or a persona of a leader.

If I recall correctly, there are posters who have met him in person.

[T-Bone]

3 hours ago, chockfull said:

T Bone,

were you in my WOW family?

allow me to use the standard answer a question with a question tactic:

Hey Chockfull, wanna get blessed?

Wanna sponsor me in life?

okay - so that's 2 questions...that means it's established, right? wow wee wow now it's 3 questions to your 1...I win by triple play!