Tape called "Light Began to Dawn." A Partial transcript. Selling Plurality. SNT 214

[WordWolf]

For some reason, Mike would rather derail existing threads with his message, and scatter it all over the middles of other threads, than make one thread to make clear points where people can see them. 

Since this is contrary to the board's interest, I'm starting the thread he should have.

 

For those whom vpw has not lost all credibility (by virtue of being a chronic liar, plagiarist, and everything else), it might be of particular interest to find out what he's said on twi history.   The rest of us may find it's interesting to see where the disconnects are between what he SAID happened, and what happened and what everyone else said happened.

So, Mike keeps buried his partial transcript of a tape called "Light Began to Dawn."  So, The "Light Began to Dawn Transcript."

ake the "Selling Plurality Transcript", aka  SNT 214.

The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write The Book? - Page 10 - About The Way - GreaseSpot Cafe

Mike:

 

I've mentioned a SNS tape from 1965 a few times here, and it occurred to me it is spot on with the thread's topic. This is how VPW cited his sources in 1965:

 Excerpt from SNS Tape #214  Selling Plurality: Acts 4:34

(sometimes called "Light Began to Dawn")

 

 

 
I remember the time when we began working this Word of God, and light began to dawn on it.  That, as we got more and more light, we got less and less people. Because the background of this ministry has a great deal more in it than most of you people know today who have just come into this ministry in the last five to ten years.  Because you can come into a beautiful auditorium like this--and by the way, we laid a new sidewalk for ya' this week.  Did you notice it?  Now it can snow 'cause you can all get in with dry feet and clean feet and so forth. 

 

 

 Well, Doc--he formed it up good and Bob and he poured it and Rueben helped and a couple ladies to help and, boy, everybody worked--to get 'er done.  But, how'd I get on sidewalks, what were we talking about?  Okay, what were we talkin' about, Thelma? Oh, yes--you see all of this and you walk into a comfortable building that's air conditioned in summer and heated occasionally in winter, and all of these other wonderful things we have here, and you say, "Boy, isn't this something?" 

 

 

But, in order to make available what's here tonight, there's some of us who have had to stand through thick and thin; through a lot of talk, a lot of persecution, a lot of bickering and a lot of laughing. And at times we have had to take a stand when even our best friends moved away.  I remember the day when there were no more than two or three people would come to a Bible study on Wednesday or Thursday night in the week.  And I suppose today, if we only had two or three people, we--we'd think the world came to an end.  But I remember those days, and here in the auditorium again tonight--I don't know if you people knew I was gonna teach on  this, that's why you all came, huh?   

 

 

But here sit the Kupps from Convoy, Ohio, the Permins from Ft. Wayne, Indiana, the Ira Joneses from Van Wert, Ohio; three couples who have stuck with us down through the years.  And boy, this is something.  I don't know if you people realize how it blesses my heart on a Sunday night or any night of the week, when I'm teaching or something is open here at the headquarters to help everybody--and you see people like the Joneses, the Permins and the Kupps.  They drive in here every Sunday night from Convoy, from Ft.Wayne, from Van Wert--almost every Sunday.  Once in a while Eldo has to take an evening off to go fishin' and ah, Herman has to do something, Jones have to take a little trip out to fish.  In the Jones family, Mrs. Jones fishes, Mr. Jones just drives the car.  Ah, in the Kupp family it's the opposite, Eldo drives the car, he does the fishin' and Grace just rides along. 

 

 

So, I could tell ya' lots about a lot of these people--but it's all good--it's all good.  Ah, Eldo just brought me a hunting knife tonight, I lost the one he gave me last year, so he brought me a new one tonight.  Ah is it sharp?  It--aha! Yeah--he said he got me a wet stone it was--it oughta be sharp 'cause he-he sharpens knives over there in Convoy--among other things.  He-he's worked at ah, you work at Goodyear didn't you--no, not ah--Harvester. I get St. Mary's and Fort Wayne mixed, but he-he's worked at Harvester for how many years?  Thirty-six years, and when he started working there--what'd they used to pay an hour down there--when you started?  Fifty-two cents an hour, and he's been there thirty-six years and ah, has a wonderful job. And I think they like him but they're gonna retire him some of these times, and then he--of course he'll be able to ah, come to The Way more often than he's even doin' now. 

 

 

But people like the Kupps and the Permins and the Joneses, when I teach here on Sunday night, many times the things that I teach, they may have heard a dozen times.  They may have been in on the first services when some of this stuff began to brew within my soul and I used to teach this thing in Van Wert.  And as this ministry began to grow, the knowledge of God's Word began to grow in my heart, I shared it with people.  And most of the people that I've shared it with, we still have wonderful friends, they have a good feeling towards you; they're thankful that they knew you and they're thankful for what's going on.  But to stand with the ministry, except to be thankful--that's better than havin' stand the other way, for which I'm grateful, they--they don't do anything concrete for the ministry, like these people do.  Occasionally they come, but not systematically. 

 

 

And as I look back over the years, to think how this ministry really started, it began at a place that's almost impossible for people to realize.  Because when they look at the ministry, or they look at my life, here in the local community and every other place, they simply say, "Well, why didn't he stay where he was?"  "Why didn't he stay in the denomination?" "Why didn't he move it?" "Can't a man work there?"  There's a lot of answers and a lot of things to be discussed in that category.  But it began because of the hunger in my heart for a knowledge of God's Word--that's where it began.  I had read commentaries upon commentaries, I had read books upon books, and yet, I could not understand the Word--I couldn't put the Bible together.  There were things that did not fit, and what one person said about a certain verse of scripture, another equally intelligent person contradicted what that person said. 

 

 

And when I went into the ministry in Nineteen Hundred and Forty One (1941), in Payne Ohio--and perhaps the finest people that we still have left from Payne, Ohio are Mr. and Mrs. Cleon White, who come here occasionally from Van Wert.  But Cleon White was the man who met us at the time when we first went to Payne, Ohio.  And we took that little church there and, it was in Nineteen Hundred and Forty One that we started out there.  But by Nineteen Hundred and Forty Two, I realized that the things that I had learned in the seminaries were wonderful; I enjoyed the--the--the mental gymnastics of the theological seminaries; I enjoyed the keenness of the Theologians; I enjoyed all of these things.  But, what I learned there wasn't good in practice--it did not work with the people who had a need.  For those people who came to church every Sunday and who bought the bricks in that place, and who wouldn't go away if the Devil himself preached there, they still hold on to the church, they came every Sunday anyway.  I knew--I-I saw this the first year.  They'd come no matter what you taught in that place, they'd come because they got their money in the bricks or in the boards or in the sidewalks and therefore they hold on to it no matter what's taught.  But, the first year in my ministry there, I found out that when there was real need, not among that group, but among the others who occasionally came to the church--or some who never "disgraced the place" as they called it, with their presence--I couldn't help 'em.  And this began to bother me.

 

 

Why was it that a man could go through four years of college and about five years of seminary, at that time; have a bachelors of arts, a bachelor of divinity, a masters of theology and all of my work finished for a PHD with the exception of about seven credits--being out there in the ministry and not being able to get the job done?  I saw my farmers out there farm, they got the corn crop, they got the wheat, they got the oats, they got the corn, but inside of the church, I couldn't see any results.  Oh, it was nice to have the chicken dinners and the little family affairs you go to, you know, and the women's guild that--men's brotherhood, all of that, but no real results.  And I got sort of sick in my heart, and I began praying that God would show me how this Word was put together--because all I did was what the average person still does; he just reads a verse of scripture and then reads a commentary on it and preaches what the commentary says.  Or he gets an idea of what it means but never able to fit the scripture from Genesis to Revelation.  And I had read so many books and saw so much contradiction that it was impossible for me to be able to teach the Word. 

 

 

I remember one meeting of the Evangelical and Reformed ministers in the early days of my ministry.  This is about six--seven months after I was in the ministry. I was asked to speak to this group, meeting up North.  And I spoke to them what I believed was the truth of God's Word, and that is that "The least a Christian could do was to tithe."  And being a young minister in the church, those ministers almost laughed me out of the meeting.  They said, "Well, Wierwille, are you that stupid that you think that we, as Christian ministers, should still tithe?"  And I said, "Yes, don't you?"  And they said, "No, we don't tithe." One minister in that whole group tithed--and Anna Shwere you'd know who it was if I named him.  He was in that meeting--only one, and he said--he said, "Well, I've tithed ever since I've been a Christian." But all the rest of 'em said, "No, we don't give our tithes." And that shook me, it hurt me, because I thought, certainly the ministers, if they were going to head up the congregation would do as much or more than they would ask their people to do.  That was shock number one, and it was a dandy--it didn't leave me--it left me numb and never got me back to my senses for about four weeks, I just couldn't imagine. 

 

 

And so, all of this stuff began to build.  And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word."  And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus.  Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day: "That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!"  "Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed. My denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God." 

 

 

And I thought that was terrific!  But during the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit.  It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day.  And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous!  And there wasn't a cloud in the sky.  And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me. 

 

 

I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know.  Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow."  And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky  'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it.  And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day.  And I sat in that little office and I cried like a baby, because I guess it was about my time to cry, because I'd grown up but didn't know the Word. 

 

 

And from that day on and He'd promised to teach me the Word, I have tried with all my heart, from time to time--all along, to learn this Word. One of the reasons there are sections of the Word perhaps that I--I don't know, because I do too much cement pouring and a few other items that have to be done and that have to be taken care of. But I am absolutely confident that there is no portion of God's Word that God would not teach me and unfold to me if I studied the Word to show myself approved unto Him by rightly dividing it. 

 

 

And that began the ministry that has cost me, sense-knowledge, more than anybody will ever realize--except those of us who've gone through it. It gives ya' a whole set of new friends.  It caused people, heads of my denomination, through various times when I appeared teaching, like in India, even to write letters against me that I was not a member of the denomination at all--and I'd been born in the lousy place.  Isn't that something?  And I have them on file--have them in my files, you ought to see 'em, I got a sheet this big. 

 

 

These are prices you pay. Then you say, well, why don't I reciprocate? Because, people, you can't fight and work the Word too. You can't be fighting all the time and trying to defend yourself against the unbelievers, because the unbelievers are many more than the believers. And we've got only one job to do, as far as my life is concerned, and that is to teach the Word. Whether anybody believes it or not, that's not my responsibility. But to teach it is my responsibility, because He said He'd teach me the Word if I would do one thing--teach it. 

 

 

Now in order to teach it, I have to study the Word; and when I study it, He shows it to me, then I can teach it. I think a lot of you people know these Bible students that are in here tonight, and we have among our people gathered here tonight, like almost every Sunday night, some of the finest Bible students in the world today. We have Bible students in here to whom no theologian in the entire world can hold a candle when it comes to the rightly dividing and the understanding of God's Word. I think every person in here knows that they can work the Word and they do work it. They get wonderful light and they contribute a great deal to The Way ministry and the light that's taught out of The Way ministry. But when these people bring their light on the Word to me and I have the opportunity to hear it--it doesn't take me but one reading or one hearing and I can, usually, without working it too far, I can pick out the error or pick the good that they bring and fit it right in. 

 

 

But this is what God raised me to and when He gave me that revelation, and that was a real phenomena or phenomenon. From that day on--this was in Payne, Ohio where this happened, light began to dawn. But you can't learn the whole Word in one night. Therefore, you study the Word--you study it. I suppose I read Genesis chapter one through eleven a thousand times. I don't know how many times you've read it, but I imagine a thousand times is a low number that I have read Genesis, chapter one through eleven.  Because I was taught that Genesis one through eleven had at least four or five different authors--you know, the J-P-D documents, this kind of stuff. I'd been taught all of this. 

 

 

And so I'd read the Word; I'd read it--I'd read it. Then I'd work, start looking--start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light--men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others--many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it. 

 

 

Perhaps the greatest one to move in the category of what I learned here in Acts four and five, to start the greatness of this thing, was a woman by the name of Rosalind Rinker. Some of you people were--will know her today because she was here in Lima, Ohio less than a year ago--or a year and a half ago. Ah, she travels and works with a woman named Jeanie Price. Jeanie Price is quite an author--writes books that are published by Zondervan, if I remember correctly. Rosalind Rinker had been on the mission field in Korea, if I remember correctly--someplace out East. Korea doesn't sound right to me, I've forgotten now where she was.  Where?  Was it China?  I think you're right. 

 

 

And a lady by the name of Aletta Yacob had come through from Africa and stopped on her way back to the United States in China. And, this woman, Aletta Yacob, had been filled with the spirit in Africa, and had been operating manifestations of the spirit and things were booming. You know, light was dawning, and people were getting saved and other things happening in Africa that were just beginning to swell--the thing. So she stopped in China, and had a series of evangelistic meetings there and all she allowed to come--or all they allowed to come, were the missionaries, their wives and their children. And they had oodles of conversions among the missionaries, their wives and their children. One of those women who got converted, was Rosalind Rinker who'd been on the mission field for sixteen years--before.

 

 

By the way, Aletta Yacob left China, started back home and her ship was bombed in the Pacific and she lost her life. But Rosalind Rinker came back from the mission field and I was doing a monthly piece of writing for a magazine out of Indiana. Remember the name of the magazine? In Butler, Indiana--I forget the title of the magazine; I used to be a regular contributing editor toward it, each week--each month.  Pardon?  No, it wasn't Christian Advocate. I forget the name of it. But anyways, it was the Higgley Press at Butler, Indiana--it's still there by the way. Ah--Pardon? No, that was Bloomfield--I was with that too, that was Dr. Bloomfield. Ahm, I was in Butler, Indiana at the Higgley Press with my article and talking to the boss, Mr. Higgley, and when we walked back through the building, he introduced me to this woman, Rosalind Rinker. And, we got acquainted just in a brief period of time and somehow or other, it gelled within my heart to say to her "Well, why don't you come over to our house and spend a week?"  And she said, "Well, I'll just do it." And that was a surprise to me because the average person who had a depth of religion usually said to me, "Well, I'll pray about it." Ah, that was the usual attitude that I'd run into, by this time. But, you know, if they had any depth of spirituality, like the boys that graduate from Moody, Wheaton and the rest of them, they would always say to me, "We have gotta take time out and pray about it." 

 

 

But this woman, had found something out there under Aletta Yacob. She had tapped something and she knew that when somebody said to her do so-in-so, if the time was right, it was God's will for her to walk in. So I said to her, "Would you like to come for a week or so with us?" and she said, "Yes, I will." I said, "When will you come?" She said "I'll be there Saturday or Sunday" I forget what. Lo and behold, here she came. You know what we did? When she came, I wanted her to speak to our church group, but she had no interest in that. She said, "I want to talk to you." And we sat down in that same office where I'd had this revelation from the Lord; she began dealing with me in the Word. And, "Boy," I thought to myself, "how can a woman have this much knowledge of the Word?" And she told me she had learned all of this within the last six--seven months! 

 

 

And she took me--that had been through all these colleges and seminaries and had almost my work for my doctors degree finished--she just takes me and winds me around her finger with the knowledge of God's Word--I didn't know any of God's Word compared to her. I'd quote her some theologian, she said "That don't mean anything to me. What does the Word say?" And she pinned me down, and she took me into the Word, and showed me that it was the Word that counted and not what a theologian said or what a man said but what does the Word say? And she kept backing me up against the wall--whole week long.  Just, night after night, day after day, that's all she did. 

 

 

So, one evening, after everybody else had gone to bed, she and I went into the church and we knelt at the pulpit chairs up in front, and we prayed together, and that was the second great night of my life. When, during the course of that week-end, she told me that God was showing her that He had something very special for me to do, and that I should teach the Word.  I forget what this all is about, but it's on the flyleaf of our class on Power For Abundant Living. It is she who made that statement that's on that cover, you know, that red-green-yellow thing that we give out for the classes on Power For Abundant Living. Her statement that she--this isn't the exact words but the essence of it--of what she said is on that sheet. And that greatness of God substantiating to her, what He had already told me, corroborated something in my heart. And that just blessed my soul. 

 

 

This sent us on a quest, and of course, one of the reasons I'm headed for this story in here tonight is because, she took me through this fourth chapter. She didn't understand it as fully as I understand it now. But she understood enough of the fourth and the fifth chapter of Acts that she made me sit up and pay attention and know that God's Word was more in here than what I was doing or asking my people to do. 

 

 

But in order to complete something here that God would have me to say now; was at--many years later, along towards forty-six, forty-seven--forty-eight, forty-nine--those years when I was so hungry for God's Word. I used to run anyplace where there was knowledge on God's Word. If I heard of a meeting in--in Arkansas where they were having a meeting along the line of God's Word, I'd jump a plane or take a train to go there.

 

 

And I had a wonderful group of Elders in the church in Van Wert at that time. All I would do is call the head Elder and tell him, "I won't be there on Sunday, I've asked Reverend so-in-so to come."  Many a time I did this on Thursday night or Friday of the week, and tell him I wouldn't be there on Sunday morning.  How would you have enjoyed to been a member of my congregation? You'd never know who your preacher might be next Sunday morning. I was off and runnin' again. 

 

 

But there was a hunger in my heart and God said He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, but I had to study, I had to work. And revelation begins--this is why I know this so well--revelation begins where the senses cease. What you can know by your senses, God expects you to know. He expects you to study the work that have already been worked out. Men like Bulinger; men like Stevie Ginsberg; God expected me to work those men and countless others. But, He taught me how to get the error out when there was any. And out of that process He taught me then, what was truth. And when there was no way of knowing it, and I'd researched to my fullest ability--tried to find out, then, if there is no other way, He showed it to me by direct revelation. Time and time again, He'd take the scripture and make it this big. I'm reading along in a verse and all at once there it is, two words, this big, for instance. Well, you have to be stupid to miss it, you know.

 

 

So I began running, and people, I literally ran all over. I finally started making some trips abroad. I was very much interested in missions, foreign mission--very much. So I started to make some trips to Central America, to see for myself first hand just exactly what was happening on the mission field. And when I got out to the mission field, I found it so surprisingly revolting to me that I couldn't tell it--I couldn't tell it. When I got back to the United States, I couldn't tell it, all I could do is show pretty pictures of the buildings and the nice banana plantations. But they had no more light on the mission field than I had back in the states. Well how could they have, we graduated from the same theological seminaries came out of the same denomination. How could we have any more light there than I had back home, but at that time I didn't know that--right.

 

 

So I began questing in all of these fields. And every time I quested, God showed me light--brought people around. And that's why, as the Word began to move, when great truths--like today I teach the four crucified with Jesus. You know we got people in the class--nobody in the class believes it, when I start it, nobody. 'Cause they've all seen the picture of two crucified with Jesus, nobody believes it--unless one of The Way grads has been to 'em before the class, that's all. But if they have never sat under the ministry that we represent or where our ministry has reached out, they're--they're--they're shocked at this thing, they just don't believe it. And yet, within one half hour--to forty-five minutes, every person in the class believes it, sometimes as high as eighteen different denominations, men and women of great difference in ages and mental ability. And yet every one of them sees the truth of God's Word, they stand put on it. 

 

 

And I remember when I first taught this, when people heard about it, I got letters back. I was a heretic.  Oh, and they said such nice things about me, all of this stuff.  I was lying, I was trying to tear the Bible apart. Well, what would you do? All I did was kept on working. And as I learned something, I would teach it. When I learned a little more of it, I'd teach it. And that's how we grew. That's why this ministry is among us tonight--not because, primarily of who I am, but because, primarily of what the Word represents in our day and our age.  That's right.  And therefore, when I knew the Word, I have never backed down on the Word of God--never--that I could remember. If I did, somebody oughta--boot me. I have stood up against my friends at times and said, "You are wrong, that's not what the Word says." I have seen people turn the other way and walk the other way, after I have told them this. But I have never backed down on the Word, and this is one reason why it has cost me so much. Because, at times, sense knowledge wise, it'd be a lot easier to back down on the Word than it is to say to someone, "This is God's Word."

 

 

Right in this section where we're dealing tonight--where we're going to be dealing, as we get winding this thing up after a bit--right in here is where many people go the other way. It's just like Jesus; they didn't follow him any longer because something else happened. So it is here. But the greatness of this ministry lays in the hearts of our people who mean business for God, and if you're concerned about the accuracy of the Word. We have no axe to grind with any denomination or any group of people. We have only one Word and that's the greatness of God's Word. And, ladies and gentlemen, if we are heretics because we rightly divide the Word, I'd rather be a heretic with the Lord than be alright being dead wrong--or somethin'--I don't know how we figured that one. That's right. I'd rather be right with the Lord than with the whole bunch of you in here tonight. And I'm sure you'd rather be right with the Lord than with the whole bunch in here tonight. 

 

 

And the Word has to have the preeminence. And that's why you people, some of you in here again tonight--like every Sunday night, come from distant places to be in here--travel, many of you, hundreds of miles to be in here on a Sunday night for the teaching ministry. Some of you don't travel quite that far, New Bremen; New Knoxville--a few other places. You're close in but some of the rest of 'em travel a lot farther. The thing that has to live is the greatness of the Word, and this has to continue to live within you and you have to walk on it.

 

 

There are very few people who can stand the pressure of time. You maybe walk on the ministry one month and the second month something gets to ya'--then it's over with. If you stay a year, somebody oughta give ya' a medal.  If you can stay two years, I don't know what ya' oughta to have.  But if you can stay as long as the Kupps and the Permins and the Jones's and some of the rest of ya, God must have somethin' real special in store for you. That's all I can say. Because there's hardly anybody that can stick through the pressure of the thing. Because, as all of you people know, once you start teaching the Word--in your community--really setting down the Word of God as it's accurately written, and making people say, "This is what the Word says, and not what you think or I think, or what Johnny Jumpup thinks, or Snowball Pete or Henry Boloko, but this is what the Word says," the people are gonna say "Hey, what's the matter with you? That's not the way I've been taught." Huh, huh, huh! What's the difference how you've been taught? Is it the accuracy of God's Word? When people come up with that argument, "Well that's not the way I've been taught," then you say to them, "Well, why don't you just--still dress in the same old dress Great Grandma dressed in, then?"  "Why don't you still farm the same way you farmed fifty years ago, if that's the way you've been brought up." It's a wonderful thing how we can move ahead in everything else, but no person has a right to move on the Word of God--you've got to stay within the confines.  It must be a "trip" isn't it?  It surely is a trip.  

 

 

The greatest thing in the world, God's Word, we oughta walk on it. We oughta learn more tomorrow than we know tonight--day after that we oughta know more than we know tomorrow. We oughta keep growing in God's Word. One of the reasons this ministry stands today, yet, is because I have stood for the Word whenever the Word was known to me. And it has been no disgrace to me at times to say; "I don't know the Word." But when I've known it and I've stood on it, I have stayed put--and that's why it lives.  This ministry would die within one month's time if we didn't stand.  Somebody's got to stand. 

 

 

Now, this week, when we go to Minnesota again, to teach--you know what the problems will be. Be like in all the scriptures, some believe, some said we'll hear you again, some disbelieve. So what? The right that we have to teach it and the right for our people to learn it and then the people to stand, that's the greatness of it. Well, that's a little background. Father says, "That's it."--so we go on.

 

 

 

[WordWolf]

Ok, let's see.  It's important enough that Mike suddenly won't shut up about it, yet Mike insisted on burying the requests to read it in one thread not about it, and the original post was buried in a DIFFERENT thread not about it.  

Somehow, I think Mike doesn't want us discussing it OPENLY.

 

==============================================

[WordWolf]

"I remember one meeting of the Evangelical and Reformed ministers in the early days of my ministry.  This is about six--seven months after I was in the ministry. I was asked to speak to this group, meeting up North.  And I spoke to them what I believed was the truth of God's Word, and that is that "The least a Christian could do was to tithe."  And being a young minister in the church, those ministers almost laughed me out of the meeting.  They said, "Well, Wierwille, are you that stupid that you think that we, as Christian ministers, should still tithe?"  And I said, "Yes, don't you?"  And they said, "No, we don't tithe." One minister in that whole group tithed--and Anna Shwere you'd know who it was if I named him.  He was in that meeting--only one, and he said--he said, "Well, I've tithed ever since I've been a Christian." But all the rest of 'em said, "No, we don't give our tithes." And that shook me, it hurt me, because I thought, certainly the ministers, if they were going to head up the congregation would do as much or more than they would ask their people to do.  That was shock number one, and it was a dandy--it didn't leave me--it left me numb and never got me back to my senses for about four weeks, I just couldn't imagine.  " 

-----------------------------------------------------

There goes the "all other ministers are incompetent and insincere" thing.  Supposedly, a roomful of ministers, and only ONE tithed, and the others said it was STUPID to think they would tithe.    

Sorry, I think this is one of those examples of something vpw did quite a bit called a bald-faced lie.  I don't think this meeting ever happened, and those insincere ministers never existed.     But this made-up story is an excuse for vpw to leave his denomination and claim he "had it" and they did not.

[Twinky]

That paragraph jumped out at me, too, WW.  But for a bit different reason.

And here we go, perhaps a derail of the subject right at the beginning (but I got bored reading the article about 1/3 the way through) - I cannot remember ever hearing said that VPW himself tithed. 

Lotsa classes that he put together; lots that his minions later taught; but did he himself tithe?  Ever?  To his old church in Van Wert?  To any other churches that he had belonged to?  Mocked the alleged ministers in the above paragraph; pretty much made it compulsory for everyone in his own super-shiny new ministry.

Mebbe you will say (or he did say) that he didn't draw a salary.  I don't know - but he certainly got lots of benefits in kind.  A home to live in. Vehicles to drive or be driven in (who paid for the fuel?).  Food, both provided and prepared for him.  Willing workers, ready to maintain the extensive grounds of his home.  Healthcare.  Who knows what other benefits? How did he pay for the cigarettes and the booze, if he didn't draw a salary?  (Hardly legitimate ministry expenses!)  Did he quantify these many and varied benefits and "tithe" off their value?  Or did he just all accept it as "love offerings" because he was so deeply committed (oh, soooo deeply committed) to "working the word" that he didn't have time for a paid job?

[T-Bone]

8 hours ago, WordWolf said:

quotes are from transcript   within   WordWolf's post:

But there was a hunger in my heart and God said He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, but I had to study, I had to work. And revelation begins--this is why I know this so well--revelation begins where the senses cease. What you can know by your senses, God expects you to know. He expects you to study the work that have already been worked out. Men like Bulinger; men like Stevie Ginsberg; God expected me to work those men and countless others. But, He taught me how to get the error out when there was any. And out of that process He taught me then, what was truth. And when there was no way of knowing it, and I'd researched to my fullest ability--tried to find out, then, if there is no other way, He showed it to me by direct revelation. Time and time again, He'd take the scripture and make it this big. I'm reading along in a verse and all at once there it is, two words, this big, for instance. Well, you have to be stupid to miss it, you know.

TBA # 1

(T-Bone Analysis #1     )

 

so much to tackle...gotta start somewhere...

thought I pick out this one - wierwille claimed that God would teach him how to get the error out of the work of others.            

this one is too easy...it's like he's setting me up for the kill shot

why didn't God show wierwille the error of Bullinger's 4 crucified ?!?!?!?! 

It's been discussed in a lot of threads on Grease Spot Cafe - and excuse the shameless plug, I have a lot of detail on that on this particular post - here

and yet reading further down in the transcript wierwille brags about teaching this doctrine of disinformation and all the folks who bought into it:

 

Quote

So I began questing in all of these fields. And every time I quested, God showed me light--brought people around. And that's why, as the Word began to move, when great truths--like today I teach the four crucified with Jesus. You know we got people in the class--nobody in the class believes it, when I start it, nobody. 'Cause they've all seen the picture of two crucified with Jesus, nobody believes it--unless one of The Way grads has been to 'em before the class, that's all. But if they have never sat under the ministry that we represent or where our ministry has reached out, they're--they're--they're shocked at this thing, they just don't believe it. And yet, within one half hour--to forty-five minutes, every person in the class believes it, sometimes as high as eighteen different denominations, men and women of great difference in ages and mental ability. And yet every one of them sees the truth of God's Word, they stand put on it.

 

what a shyster!!!! what an incompetent con artist!!!!!

okay - someone remind me again why Mike wanted us to read this transcript...it's not helping his cause. 

 I'm gonna go out on a limb here - I bet I'm better at remembering details about PFAL and Bullinger than most diehard wierwille fans.

 

 

that's all for now   - 

Edited September 21, 2022 by T-Bone
add the doctrine of disinformation

[T-Bone]

17 hours ago, WordWolf said:

So I began running, and people, I literally ran all over. I finally started making some trips abroad. I was very much interested in missions, foreign mission--very much. So I started to make some trips to Central America, to see for myself first hand just exactly what was happening on the mission field. And when I got out to the mission field, I found it so surprisingly revolting to me that I couldn't tell it--I couldn't tell it. When I got back to the United States, I couldn't tell it, all I could do is show pretty pictures of the buildings and the nice banana plantations. But they had no more light on the mission field than I had back in the states. Well how could they have, we graduated from the same theological seminaries came out of the same denomination. How could we have any more light there than I had back home, but at that time I didn't know that--right.

 

TBA #2

 

Why would wierwille say he was very interested in foreign missions? Something doesn’t smell right about that. He exhibited all the signs of a malignant narcissist. I wonder if he even had a single altruistic bone in his body. He goes on the mission fields and finds it “surprisingly revolting” . He said those serving on the mission fields had no more light than he had back in the states – though they’re all from the same theological seminaries. Gee maybe they were just teaching about Jesus Christ   - oh how despicable! I remember in PFAL wierwille went on and on about the guy who’s arm was healed but he strongly expressed he did not believe in wierwille’s Jesus. Does anyone else find this bull$hit so full of holes?

It turns my stomach just thinking about those poor foreigners being deprived of the essentials like 4 crucified and magical thinking (aka law of believing ).  (I’m being sarcastic)

This is also a very suspicious thing. wierwille gives no metrics or how he quantified and qualified that the mission fields were “surprisingly revolting”.

 

But

 

these stories of wierwille’s trips to foreign lands would come in handy for a con artist who might want to reinvent himself – I mean the people in the states who are familiar with him aren’t there to confirm or deny his agenda, successes and/or failures. A lot of fishy stuff in all that bull$hit.

that's all for now 

 

oops almost forgot - check out this hyperlink con artists, sociopaths troubled with narcissistic personality disorder

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by T-Bone
Emoticon + sarcasm

[T-Bone]

17 hours ago, WordWolf said:

And so, all of this stuff began to build.  And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word."  And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus.  Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day: "That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!"  "Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed. My denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God." 

TBA # 3

 

this was wierwille’s  ONLY  claim to fame: God talked to him.

Are there any witnesses to corroborate that STORY?    NOPE!

That really was his  ONLY  claim to fame. He said it himself innumerable times and various ways: he disparaged the five senses and “worldly wisdom” and thought little of cognitive skills and criticized seminaries and gets a fake degree so he can demand folks call him “doctor”.

 

What’s also so ridiculous and pathetic is that wierwille said God “…would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation.” A variant of the way he put it in Whiteside’s book The Way Living in Love on page 178: “And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others.”

Notice the differences between the transcript of the tape and Whiteside’s book? If God had spoken to me audibly, I would make sure to remember it correctly. If that was to be my God-given mission – that would define my life – I would have had it tattooed on my forearm so I would be sure to remember it correctly it – and look at it often to remind me whenever I’d be tempted to give up or be. distracted.

The   BIG   problem with this supposed message from on high is that God forgot to tell wierwille that there wasn’t a written “Word” in the first century – there was no – I repeat no King James Bibles or any version of the entire Bible – below are a few posts where I point out this nonsense in wierwille’s version of the space-time continuum – followed by some hyperlinks about dating when the Bible was written:

 theories of inspiration

wierwille’s lack of concern for the text

in the 1st century they mostly shared about Jesus Christ our risen Lord and Savior

~ ~ ~ ~ 

Wikipedia: dating the Bible

The Spiritual Life: dating the Bible

Foundations: when was the Bible written?

Bible Study Tools: when was the Bible written?

 

Isn’t that funny. wierwille’s claim to fame was saying God would teach him about something that didn’t exist. 

That’s all for now 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by T-Bone
Typos, nonsense and such

[WordWolf]

6 hours ago, Twinky said:

That paragraph jumped out at me, too, WW.  But for a bit different reason.

And here we go, perhaps a derail of the subject right at the beginning (but I got bored reading the article about 1/3 the way through) - I cannot remember ever hearing said that VPW himself tithed. 

Lotsa classes that he put together; lots that his minions later taught; but did he himself tithe?  Ever?  To his old church in Van Wert?  To any other churches that he had belonged to?  Mocked the alleged ministers in the above paragraph; pretty much made it compulsory for everyone in his own super-shiny new ministry.

Mebbe you will say (or he did say) that he didn't draw a salary.  I don't know - but he certainly got lots of benefits in kind.  A home to live in. Vehicles to drive or be driven in (who paid for the fuel?).  Food, both provided and prepared for him.  Willing workers, ready to maintain the extensive grounds of his home.  Healthcare.  Who knows what other benefits? How did he pay for the cigarettes and the booze, if he didn't draw a salary?  (Hardly legitimate ministry expenses!)  Did he quantify these many and varied benefits and "tithe" off their value?  Or did he just all accept it as "love offerings" because he was so deeply committed (oh, soooo deeply committed) to "working the word" that he didn't have time for a paid job?

He definitely drew a salary.  By his own claims, he taught a LOT on tithing there in his first MONTH as a pastor.   However, I've never seen references to him actually tithing.  Like here, there's IMPLICATIONS he tithed, and INSINUATIONS he tithed, but no outright statement that he EVER tithed- certainly not since beginning his work as a pastor, minister, etc.

[WordWolf]

"And that began the ministry that has cost me, sense-knowledge, more than anybody will ever realize--except those of us who've gone through it. It gives ya' a whole set of new friends.  It caused people, heads of my denomination, through various times when I appeared teaching, like in India, even to write letters against me that I was not a member of the denomination at all--and I'd been born in the lousy place.  Isn't that something?  And I have them on file--have them in my files, you ought to see 'em, I got a sheet this big.  "

====================

I know exactly what he's complaining about- and he's exaggerating wildly, again, no surprise there!  vpw made his ONE overseas trip to India (AFAIK, he made no trips to Central America, Latin America nor South America no matter what he said here, his biographies never have any gaps for it nor references to it).    What he claimed was some grand tour of India where he personally was invited to teach all over the place.  He actually rode the coattails of some other preacher, the one whose claims vpw plagiarized into the booklet about The Dilemma of Foreign Missions when he returned.  That guy was welcome all over the place and addressed the Jain Convention.  vpw was there as his guest.  vpw didn't have any invitations in his own name, nor invitations to teach even in the other guy's name. His ONE public address was a short time at the microphone where he pronounced a blessing for the attendees.  (We got all this from Mrs W's book.)   As vpw went to India, the denomination made it clear that he was one of their ministers- but they were NOT sending him there in any capacity, official or not, and he was not sent as a REPRESENTATIVE of theirs in ANY capacity.  His actions were solely his own, and no official connection was stated nor implied by his presence there.   vpw really resented how clearly they did that. He loved parading around as a fake VIP whenever he had the chance, and this announcement/letters ruined some of his fun. He couldn't strut around India pretending he was their representative to India or anything like that. 

BTW, when he was thanked by some actual VIP in India, it was for the surprise he felt that vpw, a Christian minister, would pronounce a blessing for the Jain Convention/non-Christians.  Period.  it was NOT for anything else he said, and it was NOT for anything else he did.  Mrs W was pretty specific.  vpw's account of the same thing was pretty specific, also. He claimed a cinematic, unrealistic incident of a miraculous healing where he prayed for a man with a withered arm while almost hanging off the back of a train, and that the man was instantly healed.  You all may recall that one from pfal and the Orange Book. We've discussed it before- it's physically unrealistic, doesn't make sense in the context of the trip, and there's no way a man already in another car could possibly have seen it happen at the rear of the caboose just as the train was pulling out.  BTW, vpw got the key to a town, but no "and the doors of the Far East are all open for you to teach". The VIP was a VIP to one town, not an entire subcontinent.  This is why vpw never returned to capitalize on the amazing trip we were all TOLD he had, despite there being no eyewitnesses-  not ones who CORROBORATED HIS REPORT.   If there had been miracles all up and down India, he would have returned at SOME point- and there were plenty of opportunities, especially once vpw grabbed all the loot from Way East and Way West and canned H33fn3r and D00p. 

So, the complaint wasn't them denying he was their minister, they denied he was there in any representative capacity rather than on his own personal trip.  Not much for a normal minister to complain about, but this isn't a surprise.]

 

[WordWolf]

"Now in order to teach it, I have to study the Word; and when I study it, He shows it to me, then I can teach it. I think a lot of you people know these Bible students that are in here tonight, and we have among our people gathered here tonight, like almost every Sunday night, some of the finest Bible students in the world today. We have Bible students in here to whom no theologian in the entire world can hold a candle when it comes to the rightly dividing and the understanding of God's Word. I think every person in here knows that they can work the Word and they do work it. They get wonderful light and they contribute a great deal to The Way ministry and the light that's taught out of The Way ministry. But when these people bring their light on the Word to me and I have the opportunity to hear it--it doesn't take me but one reading or one hearing and I can, usually, without working it too far, I can pick out the error or pick the good that they bring and fit it right in. "

----------------------------

Again with vpw/twi having "the best in the world" at something.  Supposedly, this was BEFORE vpw hijacked the hippies of the House of Acts.      BTW, it's already been explained -by someone who was there and had access to vpw's private library- that vpw never went to "study the Word." He had a big stash of works by excellent Christian writers. He would go to their stuff, pick through it, and then prepare a teaching based on what was there, and CLAIM he was in alone reading the Bible with God explaining the Bible to him.

[Mike]

17 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Ok, let's see.  It's important enough that Mike suddenly won't shut up about it, yet Mike insisted on burying the requests to read it in one thread not about it, and the original post was buried in a DIFFERENT thread not about it.  

Somehow, I think Mike doesn't want us discussing it OPENLY.

 

==============================================

WordWolf you get so many facts wrong it makes me wonder
if there is something in the water there at GSC.

 

"Mike suddenly won't shut up about it." 
WHAAAAAT !!??
I have posted that entire transcript 2, maybe 3 times. 
I have OFTEN referred to it since 2003.

 

"Somehow, I think Mike doesn't want us discussing it OPENLY."
I posted the link yesterday in large, bold, red letters !
I sharply challenged people here to read it ALL !!!

Have you thought of switching to bottled water?

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Mike

[Mike]

WordWolf, I am very happy you started this thread.

Had I started it, I'd probably get worse criticisms than yours above.  I don't share the persnickety attitudes toward where or when something should be posted.  Yesterday I saw, again, a need for posters to read that transcript, in spite of my several postings, so I referred to it.... but certainly not suddenly.  That tape has been a central item in my thinking, so I also posted the link to its entirety yesterday.  After that link I posted this "late edit" that maybe you did not see.

 

I think I posted this a total of 3 times in past years.

Late Edit -  It is amazing how many times over the years I have cited passages from this tape. This explains so much! 

I think many here avoid reading this because it undermines the central focus here, which is sin.  This is too loaded with answers, and it seems to repel people who want to dwell on sin and play Gotcha all the time.  I wonder if many here are even able to read this whole transcript.  I can see from this week's posting to me here that most here are completely lacking the detail that this transcript provides.

PLEASE READ IT so we can have a conversation that doesn't resemble a Marx Brothers movie.  Not knowing this tape's transcript pretty much guarantees an inability to understand what I am saying.

 

So, thanks again for posting the entire transcript. I hope readers will attempt to read it all on their own with God's love in their heart. Maybe some will be able to do this, and not need your coaching and leading them by the hand.

There are deep reasons why this transcript was not read the time(s) I posted it in the past.  I think you were one of the non-readers because you repeated you mistaken posting that the first time the 1942 promise came up in 1972's "The Way - Living In Love."   You can see in this highly neglected transcript that VPW mentions it in 1965 on tape. Who knows how many other earlier tapes have it? 

[waysider]

8 hours ago, WordWolf said:

  He actually rode the coattails of some other preacher, the one whose claims vpw plagiarized into the booklet about The Dilemma of Foreign Missions when he returned.

Was it E. Stanley Jones or another one whose name escapes me at the moment?

 

Fear is sand in the machinery of life....E. Stanley Jones

Edited September 21, 2022 by waysider

[Nathan_Jr]

1 hour ago, waysider said:

Was it E. Stanley Jones or another one whose name escapes me at the moment?

 

Fear is sand in the machinery of life....E. Stanley Jones

Yep. You handled that quote with matchless accuracy. Isn't that just wonderful! Just a tremendous kernel. But ol' Eli wasn't accurate about everything.

Also attributed to him: Worry and anxiety are the sand in the machinery of life; faith is the oil.

Literally, according to usage, "faith" here should be rendered beleeeving.  Haha! Oh, boy! Isn't that somethin'!

[WordWolf]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

WordWolf you get so many facts wrong it makes me wonder
if there is something in the water there at GSC.

 

"Mike suddenly won't shut up about it." 
WHAAAAAT !!??
I have posted that entire transcript 2, maybe 3 times. 
I have OFTEN referred to it since 2003.

 

"Somehow, I think Mike doesn't want us discussing it OPENLY."
I posted the link yesterday in large, bold, red letters !
I sharply challenged people here to read it ALL !!!

Have you thought of switching to bottled water?

 

 

Mike, you're probably the only one that can't tell the difference.   When we addressed you on a number of things, you suddenly went to mentioning this, and returned to it, complaining that people were refusing to read it- while skipping over what everyone else said.  That's a blinking neon sign. 

There's a big difference between saying you want it read, and you want it discussed openly.  You claim you want it read- and I agree.  But you buried the link in a thread, and that link led to a post buried in another thread.  If you really wanted an open discussion, you would have started a new thread- and you refused to do so when asked.   So, you don't want us discussing as a group-  and the reason's rather clear.  You'd rather pretend it contains secret, hidden, occult information, secret messages only you can decipher.  With us all discussing it, it all comes out in the wash.   Bluster all you want.

[WordWolf]

2 hours ago, waysider said:

Was it E. Stanley Jones or another one whose name escapes me at the moment?

 

Fear is sand in the machinery of life....E. Stanley Jones

skyrider's mentioned him before. 

From the thread, "Keys to the City."

"p. 131 Born Again to Serve

"On November 21, 22, and 23 in the city of Ujjain, Dr. Wierwille addressed a three-day annual convention of the Terapanthi Jains, knownas the Anuverat Movement. Dr. Wierwille was the first Christian ever to be invited to address this body. The Jains are a sect of Hindus and their leader was Acharaya Shri Tulsi, who spent much time in private telling us about the whole movement and asking questions of us. Dr. Wierwille remarked, 'I can say that the Acharaya is doing much for the building up of the moral and ethical structure of the Indian peoples.'"

No....I don't doubt that wierwille addressed this convention....BUT all evidence show that Dr. I.S. Williams was the prominent Christian man in this Hindu meeting and translated for wierwille. From what I see, wierwille got to preach for 15-20 minutes.....and that was it. The Jain convention lasted for 3 days......kinda like wierwille getting to speak at the "ROA Family Tables" as a sideshow to a much larger event. BIG DEAL..........hahahahahaha

=======================

From "Ash Heap of TWI-story":

"The Terapanth Jains is a sub-sect movement of the two major sects in Jainism, Svetambara and Digambara. When wierwille

claimed to be "the first-ever christian to address the Jain Convention".....what that meant was Dr. Williams ushered vpw

in as a guest speaker to address a splinter group of the Svetambara sect of Jainism in Ujjain, India.

Not Bombay.....not Delhi.....not Calcutta.......not Jabalpur.

Ujjain, India which today has a population of some 515,000 --- Click Here

For those who might want to see the graphic outline of Jainism and its sects,

[from Wikipedia] the following link is provided. Scroll down to #10 Denominations -- Click Here - Jainism

------------------------

From "Planting a cult one weed at a time",

"

"The haughtiness of wierwille's narcissism wreaks thru even this sanitized edition of wierwille's legacy.

But there is no mistaking that wierwille stole B.G.'s class outright and ran it as his own........and then, plagiarized from other men's works to add filler and pass it off as his own research (cough, cough).  When the timeline is followed........there was NO WAY wierwille had any inkling of a "twi" or class-based system when he barged into Leonard's class in Calgary, Alberta.  Again, arrogance and narcissism.  Even the pictures in Mrs. W's book.........show that wierwille was a nobody, a back-bencher around other men of the cloth. 

And, Dr. Williams the president of the All-India Federation of National Churches AND pastor of the St. Paul's Hindustani Church in Byculla, Bombay AND strict devotee of Indian history........was host to the wierwilles during that India itinerary.  Dr. Williams is the one who opened ALL THE DOORS and gave vpw access into the Jain Convention, where this western Christian (wierwille) was granted a 20-30 minute teaching in a week long festival.  Yawn.  How many of them would even remember his name?  How many of them took this as an opportunity to go use the restroom?  Dr. Williams translated for vpw.  Wanna bet that out of respect for Dr. Williams the American got to even speak at all?"

-------------------------------------------

From "A couple of questions about VPW"

"Then.....12 years later (1956)......wierwille, wife and kids, go on that India itinerary.  Wierwille's narcissism is writing checks that his ministry (cough, cough) couldn't cash.  Through contacts with Bishop K.C. Pillai.....a Dr. I. S. Williams becomes their host upon arrival.  Interestingly, Mrs. Wierwille's book references this man as "Dr. J. S. Williams (perhaps, the scribbled notes at the time were the reason for this mistake....or something else?).   Dr. Williams was a prominent and distinguished man.  Dr. I. S. Williams was president of the All-India Federation of Churches  and pastor of the St. Paul's Hindustani Church in Byculla, Bombay and devotee of Indian history.....and more.

Wierwille, in his narcissistic realm, embellishes this huge storyline in pfal of his India experience.  Yet, truth be told......it was Dr. I. S. Williams that was well-respected and highly prominent to religious and political officeholders.....and therefore, doors DID OPEN because Williams was the man that opened them.  Not wierwille.  And, all that bloviating in pfal of teaching the Word of God at the Jain Convention......when in reality, wierwille spoke for about 20-30 minutes (translated by Williams) in a week-long convention. " 

==============================

 

[WordWolf]

Mike:

"There are deep reasons why this transcript was not read the time(s) I posted it in the past."

When you mentioned it in passing in the past, before, it was largely passed over, Mike, because your credibility has worn so thin that nobody was paying attention to it.   No need to consult your corn flakes for a hidden message expounding the "secret" to why your endorsements don't get results.   

Oh, and I'm keen on everyone reading the whole thing in its entirety- that's why I began the thread with the whole thing in its entirety.    That way, they can check what you're saying, what I'm saying, what everyone's saying, and what is there, and come to their own conclusions with everything in plain sight.   That benefits them, and that benefits those of us shining a light on things.

Big guess on who receives dubious help, at best, when that happens.  

[Mike]

3 hours ago, WordWolf said:

  You claim you want it read- and I agree. 

But you buried the link in a thread, and that link led to a post buried in another thread.  If you really wanted an open discussion, you would have started a new thread- and you refused to do so when asked.  

No, you failed to read my mind, and only read my actions (or inaction) with the brown-colored glasses you wear when you look at me.  

The real reason I didn't start a separate thread is because I expected sharp criticisms from others and management if I were to post my own thread on it, starting with a super long post. I got into hot water a lot years ago for long posts (and even some for starting my own), so I try to maintain a light footprint here.

But thank you again for posting the whole thing (again) with it's own thread title.  That makes it much easier to find.

Now MANY more people can read it easily, besides the regular posters.  And they wont overlook the thread after seeing my name as originator. Thanks again for that!

It is the case that I have OFTEN quoted or referred to this tape.  The transcript is worth a slow read, and for understanding, sans the gotchya game. 

The kind of revelations God gave VPW over the years is well documented there, heavily infused in the Key #4b from the AC, which is "What youcan know by the five senses God expects you to know."   In other words, a lot of it involved LOTS of sense knowledge work.  So much so, that God expedited the process.  He gave many little revelations to many authors prior to VPW, and then directed him to them.  That saved a lot of work for VPW, so he could put together more material for us, and work on marketing and distribution around the world in ways that people like Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, Keynon, Leonard were not capable of.   WHO on God's green earth could have spread the Word to the Hippies but VPW ???  Most of you heard the Word ultimately due to Hippies effectively speaking it and spreading it.  It was  pretty Ohio bound (in spite of international efforts of VPW) until the Hippies got involved.

I'm not sure who it was that recognized the significance of this portion of an old SNS tape.  That portion was cut out and put on a cassette and circulated around California in the early meltdown years.   I didn't find it until 1998, and it was pretty amazing to have so many of my questions answered.

WordWolf, did you ever read it when I posted it two (maybe three) times in the past?

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Mike

[T-Bone]

35 minutes ago, Mike said:

No, you failed to read my mind, and only read my actions (or inaction) with the brown-colored glasses you wear when you look at me.  

The real reason I didn't start a separate thread is because I expected sharp criticisms from others and management if I were to post my own thread on it, starting with a super long post. I got into hot water a lot years ago for long posts (and even some for starting my own), so I try to maintain a light footprint here.

But thank you again for posting the whole thing (again) with it's own thread title.  That makes it much easier to find.

Now MANY more people can read it easily, besides the regular posters.  And they wont overlook the thread after seeing my name as originator. Thanks again for that!

It is the case that I have OFTEN quoted or referred to this tape.  The transcript is worth a slow read, and for understanding, sans the gotchya game. 

The kind of revelations God gave VPW over the years is well documented there, heavily infused in the Key #4b from the AC, which is "What youcan know by the five senses God expects you to know."   In other words, a lot of it involved LOTS of sense knowledge work.  So much so, that God expedited the process.  He gave many little revelations to many authors prior to VPW, and then directed him to them.  That saved a lot of work for VPW, so he could put together more material for us, and work on marketing and distribution around the world in ways that people like Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, Keynon, Leonard were not capable of.   WHO on God's green earth could have spread the Word to the Hippies but VPW ???  Most of you heard the Word ultimately due to Hippies effectively speaking it and spreading it.  It was  pretty Ohio bound (in spite of international efforts of VPW) until the Hippies got involved.

I'm not sure who it was that recognized the significance of this portion of an old SNS tape.  That portion was cut out and put on a cassette and circulated around California in the early meltdown years.   I didn't find it until 1998, and it was pretty amazing to have so many of my questions answered.

WordWolf, did you ever read it when I posted it two (maybe three) times in the past?

Mike: The real reason I didn't start a separate thread is because I expected sharp criticisms from others and management if I were to post my own thread on it, starting with a super long post

 

T-Bone: ah – so it was YOUR believing ! You know what killed that initial post? It  was  the  FEAR  in  the  heart  and  life  of  that Grease Spotter!  

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Mike: It is the case that I have OFTEN quoted or referred to this tape.  The transcript is worth a slow read, and for understanding, sans the gotchya game.

T-Bone:  When someone with a lot of frequent-liar-miles, complains of others asking valid question by saying they’re playing the gotcha game – I tend to think the one with the frequent-liar-miles is really looking for a loophole or exit clause to win an argument    or  simply to dodge a debate…Some say the dodging tactic of claiming it’s a gotcha game is similar to    eristic  . In philosophy and rhetoric, eristic (from Eris, the ancient Greek goddess of chaos, strife, and discord) refers to an argument that aims to successfully dispute another's argument, rather than searching for truth. According to T.H. Irwin, "It is characteristic of the eristic to think of some arguments as a way of defeating the other side, by showing that an opponent must assent to the negation of what he initially took himself to believe." Eristic is arguing for the sake of conflict, as opposed to resolving conflict.    From   Wikipedia: eristic

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Mike: WHO on God's green earth could have spread the Word to the Hippies but VPW ???  Most of you heard the Word ultimately due to Hippies effectively speaking it and spreading it.  It was  pretty Ohio bound (in spite of international efforts of VPW) until the Hippies got involved.

 

T-Bone: you’re referring to wierwille hijacking the Jesus movement…instead of your wierwille-centric narrative let’s review some accounts from the hippies themselves:

Jim Doop, The Way West and vpw

DWBH on Doop and Heefner

Jimmy Doop's post Sept. 8 2005 about The Way West and wierwille wanting to control the money

 

[Rocky]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

Had I started it, I'd probably get worse criticisms than yours above.

That somehow reeks of narcissism and insecurity.  More than one person suggested you start a new thread (i.e. LIKE THIS ONE) instead of continuing to derail the other thread. Just say what you want to say and let go of the self-centered nonsense.

Are you going to be criticized? Undoubtedly. Will it be personal criticism or rebuttal of what readers disagree with?

Who cares? YOU come here to disagree. Either do it or go home (so to speak). 

[Rocky]

47 minutes ago, Mike said:

The real reason I didn't start a separate thread is because I expected sharp criticisms from others and management if I were to post my own thread on it, starting with a super long post.

Blah blah blah. Yada yada yada. LAME excuse. Multiple people made the suggestion, YOU didn't heed the suggestion. That's on NO ONE but you.

Could the REAL reason for your choice to not start a separate thread be... maybe you feared no one would engage with your nearly incoherent rambling? IDK. Nevertheless, it's STILL on you and you alone to either post or not post rather than derail other threads.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Rocky

[OldSkool]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:50 PM, WordWolf said:

And so I'd read the Word; I'd read it--I'd read it. Then I'd work, start looking--start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light--men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others--many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it. 

From the following link: http://minet.org/www.trancenet.net/noway/witness/vwdeath.shtml

Quote

The Way has long taught "the law of believing." Because Wierwille acquired this idea from men like Albert Cliffe (who was a spiritist, not a Christian)

 

Hey Mike, why would God lead wierwille to a non-Christian spiritist and then have wierwille incorporrate his garbage into TWI material? You do know the law of believing is false...right? 

https://cloud.disroot.org/s/2eaS5BbmzAQcMHZ

 

Thats one of the main problems with wierwille's itchy ears. He followed men who mixed the occult into Christianity. Same with EW Kenyon. While I have studied this topic extensively these links I am posting are simply random links from searching out the authors names. I do not necessarily agree with the website and I am in no way affiliated with them. I say this because I sense a straw man attack on the horizon. People can present factual information without being right about everything else, or being perfect. Maybe they are fundamntalist of maybe they like eating couliflower in their underwear by the pale moon light. Stick with the material at hand. Thanks in advance.

https://truthwatchers.com/the-word-of-faith-heresy/

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by OldSkool

[OldSkool]

 

Quote

 

TWI's lawyers have been advising them for decades that if they allow any flagrant, public misuse of the materials, and they DON'T prosecute (or make an recorded effort to do so) then others can come along later and misuse the materials much worse.  If this happens TWI would not be able to make a good case in court to win such a later case.  By public and flagrant misuse I mean selling them on Amazon or E-Bay.  I have privately let leaders there know that I have bootleg copies of the class.  They can figure it out from all the passages I have posted here, plus I even called Howard Allen in 1988 to let him know what was going on. Me and many others were busy making copies of things to serve as backups and insurance against any more TWI crashes like the 1986 crash.  I was ready to go to jail for it.  We had dedicated our lives to God's class and no TWI was going to take it away from us.

 

So, mike! How do you know what TWI's lawyers are advising them? Do you even know the name of the firm that represents them?

Also, you do understand that TWI has copies of everything they ever recorded for the most part? Most of the materials, including the reference you made to the old SNS, are actually in the main library of the OSC. Not only do staff use them for study but the various publications departments use that library for reference when they are editing their little hearts out. Your acting like these materials are hidden away somewhere.

They had to pull most of wierwilles recorded content because of all the rants and raves he used to go on....not to mention you would be able to trace his recordings straight back to the original authors. (..oh wait...I forgot plagariasism doesnt matter because this is wierwille we are talking about. ) Actually, I realized while I was studying university of life tapes on Romans while I was in-residence that wierwille had lifted most all of his content from The Just and the Justifier by Charles Welsch who was an understudy to Bullinger.

https://www.amazon.com/Just-Justifier-Charles-M-Welch/dp/0851561349

 

Also, they don't want to be a cult anylonger so they can't very well hang out the old deceased cult leaders dirty laundry now can they? BTW - you reaching out the leaders their privately is laughable. They get people with all kinds of crazy ideas coming at them all the time. Howard Allen is probably the biggest yes man on the planet. Saying yes was his main job no matter which director/trustee he worked for. And btw - I had a good relationship with Howard, knew him personally, and worked for the man for several years when I cordinated the grounds department. Part of his emiritus job was looking after TWI property. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that calling him about anything of this nature got you a polite "ok then" and a "goodbye"!

Edited September 21, 2022 by OldSkool

[OldSkool]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:50 PM, WordWolf said:

The greatest thing in the world, God's Word, we oughta walk on it. We oughta learn more tomorrow than we know tonight--day after that we oughta know more than we know tomorrow. We oughta keep growing in God's Word. One of the reasons this ministry stands today, yet, is because I have stood for the Word whenever the Word was known to me. And it has been no disgrace to me at times to say; "I don't know the Word." But when I've known it and I've stood on it, I have stayed put--and that's why it lives.  This ministry would die within one month's time if we didn't stand.  Somebody's got to stand.   

So the Word lives because VPW stood on it. I thought it was the Word of Life because God authored it and stands behind it to the point of sending Jesus Christ who was the Word made flesh... Oh...VPW stood for the Word whenever the Word was know to him. Sounds like he never missed a step....gheesh.

Edited September 21, 2022 by OldSkool

[OldSkool]

On 9/20/2022 at 2:50 PM, WordWolf said:

So, one evening, after everybody else had gone to bed, she and I went into the church and we knelt at the pulpit chairs up in front, and we prayed together, and that was the second great night of my life 

Wierwille was talking about Rosalind Rinker here. How inappropriate is it for a married pastor to take a single lady anywhere after everybody else had gone to bed. Who the heck is everyone else, Mrs. Wierwille? Rinker went and stayed with them for a week according to VPW so he waits until his wife is asleep and goes off with this lady just the two of them? Talk about a recipe for disaster. Given his history of extramarital affairs this is an eyebrow raiser for me.