LCM said there was an affair. That would pi$$ of Paul. Unless that was the practice, as some claim.
Her being unwilling would make it rape.
Bolshevik, have you heard of "coercive control"?
It can include where the victim (and yes, there is a victim) feels compelled to perform certain acts by a person in some sort of trusted, or superior, position. Examples: a husband beating his wife, or restricting her access to money; a boss requiring sexual favors of an employee; teachers/pupils and so on. Can include doctors, clergymen, and other professionals abusing their professional responsibilities.
You must surely be aware of the amount of coercion at TWI HQ. Some is fairly subtle and some is blatantly overt, with lots of shade in between. LCM coerced Mrs A, and other women. It's abuse, pure and simple. An offence against the women, their husbands, and against God. It's no different from the records in 1 Sam. And I very much doubt God's opinion has changed in the last 3,000 or so years, such as to condone such behavior.
Twinky, thank you for spelling out how coercive control works. It is critical to understanding the terrible and inexcusable sex abuse by TWI leaders and other sorts of leaders around the world.
It can include where the victim (and yes, there is a victim) feels compelled to perform certain acts by a person in some sort of trusted, or superior, position. Examples: a husband beating his wife, or restricting her access to money; a boss requiring sexual favors of an employee; teachers/pupils and so on. Can include doctors, clergymen, and other professionals abusing their professional responsibilities.
You must surely be aware of the amount of coercion at TWI HQ. Some is fairly subtle and some is blatantly overt, with lots of shade in between. LCM coerced Mrs A, and other women. It's abuse, pure and simple. An offence against the women, their husbands, and against God. It's no different from the records in 1 Sam. And I very much doubt God's opinion has changed in the last 3,000 or so years, such as to condone such behavior.
The teaching career version of me is very aware of that. Mandatory courses on the subject.
The teenager version doesn't understand why theses matter were hammered into his skull, altering the course of his life negatively.
Mr. Allen did not protect his wife. He knew better than to put his wife in that position. You cite a husband as a perpetrator.
Nope - the Allens took an undiscloed amount from TWI in their settlement and dipped! Cant say I blame them but I really wish they had throttled the car to the finish line and that's probably selfish of me. God knows what they went through.
The Allen's tried that route, that I know for sure. Before it blew up publicly they tried to meet with Craig but apparently that didn't go as planned and their only recourse was the courts. That meeting was the one that happened in the conference room next to computer services when Craig had linder show up with a holstered gun. The Allen's weren't given much of a choice.
The Allen's tried that route, that I know for sure. Before it blew up publicly they tried to meet with Craig but apparently that didn't go as planned and their only recourse was the courts. That meeting was the one that happened in the conference room next to computer services when Craig had linder show up with a holstered gun. The Allen's weren't given much of a choice.
By private I mean go to court but why blast across the internet? Were the rest of us responsible?
By private I mean go to court but why blast across the internet? Were the rest of us responsible?
I can't speak to Paul's actual reasoning but it was a David vs Goliath kinda thing. Legally the internet became leverage because the directors hate sunshine.
I can't speak to Paul's actual reasoning but it was a David vs Goliath kinda thing. Legally the internet became leverage because the directors hate sunshine.
IMHO, twi lost more because it had more to lose, and insisted on handling things only as quietly as their lawyers insisted. twi mgmt was used to handling everything in bad faith and getting away with it because they were bullies.
That changed as soon as someone called them on it and brought in secular law.
BTW, to answer an earlier question....
There were 2 ways to try to address this- as a federal case, and as a civil case.
As a federal case, if lcm was found guilty, he'd probably go to prison, but the evidence had to pass a higher standard- guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
With a civil case, they could sue for damages (a money amount), but the standard was simpler- the preponderance of the evidence.
The suers went the simpler route- which was smart. They had a much better chance of winning the suit, and when they went public, other people started to speak up. At the advice of their lawyers, twi settled out of court rather than have all those people brought up on the witness stand. (Judges have been known to increase penalties in civil suits if they feel someone's getting away too lightly, although this is not common.)
The suers won a settlement- but had to close their website as part of the settlement. However, people had begun to communicate freely, so another website was begun, and twi has dearly wished it would close- twi has hemorrhaged members and many of them point to the GSC as part of the reason they left.
As for lcm, at the advice of their lawyers, twi jettisoned him as a liability. So, he didn't go to prison, but he was kicked off the pulpit and allegedly out of twi.
The suers won a settlement- but had to close their website as part of the settlement. However, people had begun to communicate freely, so another website was begun, and twi has dearly wished it would close- twi has hemorrhaged members and many of them point to the GSC as part of the reason they left.
. . .
Followers presumably only knowing how to follow . . . perhaps another thread to explain what this means?
Followers presumably only knowing how to follow . . . perhaps another thread to explain what this means?
I can't answer for wordwolf as to what exactly he meant, however, I was front and center at HQ and in my apprentice year of my way corps training. Basically, when the Allens stepped up and spoke out the damn of dissent broke and there was a lot of people who spoke up.
I can't answer for wordwolf as to what exactly he meant, however, I was front and center at HQ and in my apprentice year of my way corps training. Basically, when the Allens stepped up and spoke out the damn of dissent broke and there was a lot of people who spoke up.
At HQ or on the internet? The internet brings in people who otherwise should not be involved.
twi was and is always interested in controlling the microphone, and having only their POV be spoken, suppressing dissent whenever possible.
With discussion on a website twi didn't control, suddenly, there was an opportunity to speak that wasn't controlled by twi. Those who had been hurt by them especially had something to say, and had been conditioned to keep silent- but now there was another option.
People began to speak and give their points of view. Although many of those were supportive of twi (at least at first), twi hated their inability to control the discussion. So, it snowballed from then, with more and more speaking, and more and more speaking about how twi hurt them, and more women began speaking about how lcm "messed with" them. That last part would have been especially bad for twi if those women were subpoenaed to appear in court and tell what they know. They could have brought a class-action suit that would have EMPTIED the twi coffers. So, the lawyers insisted twi settle QUICKLY and QUIETLY with the A||3ns.
Once people had gotten the idea it was ok to communicate freely, they did so. Having a site to communicate made it easy. twi's hated the idea ever since.
BTW. that's why twi strong-armed their own follower into closing his pro-twi messageboard. Despite him being pro-twi and deleting posts that weren't RABIDLY PRO-twi and closing accounts for anyone who posted anything other than enthusiastic for twi, it wasn't under their direct control, so they leaned on him to shut it down.
At HQ or on the internet? The internet brings in people who otherwise should not be involved.
HQ, field and staff way corps, grads on the field. A lot of people left and the only voice they had was the internet. The blame lies squarley on VPW for training craig martindale to prey on the flock. Whenever that happens it should be made public, not hidden. Now, Im with you as far a scripture is concerned - and if that had happened we wouldn't be here. But Paul and his wife did try to confront him face to face and it went nowhere.
There were 2 ways to try to address this- as a federal case, and as a civil case.
Do you mean "criminal case" rather than having used "federal case?"
8 hours ago, OldSkool said:
I was front and center at HQ and in my apprentice year of my way corps training. Basically, when the Allens stepped up and spoke out the damn of dissent broke and there was a lot of people who spoke up.
Hence the potential catastrophe of a class action civil suit to twi. In such a situation a $65 million treasury wouldn't go very far. Rosie knew that. She (and whoever with her) decided to survive and make twi survive by settling with the Allens.
Note today's news that a jury awarded a certain broadcaster's Connecticut victims (of his harassment) nearly a BILLION dollars.
9 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
Followers presumably only knowing how to follow . . . perhaps another thread to explain what this means?
Until one or more follower decides to step up and lead.
10 hours ago, OldSkool said:
I can't speak to Paul's [not the Apostle Paul] actual reasoning but it was a David vs Goliath kinda thing. Legally the internet became leverage because the directors hate sunshine.
And we have known since well before the emergence of the interwebs, sunlight is the BEST disinfectant. Waydale wasn't responsible for your emotional pain.
10 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
By private I mean go to court but why blast across the internet? Were the rest of us responsible?
Life is inherently unfair. Factors enter into situations beyond what anyone can control. You probably know that on an intellectual level, even though your emotions may be holding you to a different perspective and framework for understanding and coping with your experience.
NOBODY instigating the shining of sunlight on the evil actions of Loy or the evil subculture enabling him necessarily had ANY idea of possible collateral damage inflicted on innocent bystanders.
Stephen Covey, the late author of 7 Habits of Highly EFFECTIVE People wrote,
“But I kept thinking about it. I really went inside myself and began to ask, ‘Do I have the power to choose my response?’ “When I finally realized that I do have that power, when I swallowed that bitter pill and realized that I had chosen to be miserable, I also realized that I could choose not to be miserable. “At that moment I stood up. I felt as though I was being let out of San Quentin. I wanted to yell to the whole world, ‘I am free! I am let out of prison! No longer am I going to be controlled by the treatment of some person.’”
***
It’s not what happens to us, but our response to what happens to us that hurts us. Of course, things can hurt us physically or economically and can cause sorrow. But our character, our basic identity, does not have to be hurt at all. In fact, our most difficult experiences become the crucibles that forge our character and develop the internal powers, the freedom to handle difficult circumstances in the future and to inspire others to do so as well.
Covey, Stephen R.. The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change (pp. 80-81). Rosetta Books. Kindle Edition.
My divorce and custody disputes, in and about which I was easily able to find information clearly demonstrating that what happened to me was grossly unfair and hurtful, became crucibles for me. I couldn't control the situations and too many of the outcomes. Yet, as unjust as those events were, and as emotionally difficult as they were for me, I have emerged (nearly 30 years after my divorce) much more emotionally mature and able to handle difficult situations and emotions than I ever was.
And like you, Bolshevik, the hurt I endured was outside my control and directly traceable to the teachings and culture of wierwilleism. Like me, it may take you a long time to emerge from the crucible, but you can and you will.
Hence the potential catastrophe of a class action civil suit. In such a situation a $65 million treasury wouldn't go very far. Note today's news that a jury awarded a certain broadcaster's Connecticut victims (of his harassment) nearly a BILLION dollars.
Yessir! The judge in the Allen case said in his summary (paraphrasing) that of the six counts charged in the case, four of those charges WERE going to trial and one of those charges was RICO. So I bet the plaintiff's lawyers had a boat load of witnesses ready to go!
Yessir! The judge in the Allen case said in his summary (paraphrasing) that of the six counts charged in the case, four of those charges WERE going to trial and one of those charges was RICO. So I bet the plantiff's lawyers had a boat load of witnesses ready to go!
It’s not what happens to us, but our response to what happens to us that hurts us. Of course, things can hurt us physically or economically and can cause sorrow. But our character, our basic identity, does not have to be hurt at all. In fact, our most difficult experiences become the crucibles that forge our character and develop the internal powers, the freedom to handle difficult circumstances in the future and to inspire others to do so as well.
Even the bully LCM said, "You stay hurt [emotionally] as long as you choose to." And that was a reflection made post-fog years. After he had been bullied badly by Geer.
Of course, that's so easy to say. When what's happened has ripped your life away from you. When a spouse has walked out, a child has died, or whatever. When, as an immature teenager, as Bolshevik was, you don't have the ability to walk away from it, to leave it behind, to see other people's problems as just that - their problems. Not yours.
I wonder how long it took LCM to get over being slung out from his Presidency and from TWI. How hurt he was, how many regrets he had. I wonder if he suffered as much as some posters here have suffered. And whether he learned any lessons. (From BecomingMe's posts, it seems not.) But that's a whole nother story.
It's a fine balancing line - the one between independence, and interdependence.
Even the bully LCM said, "You stay hurt [emotionally] as long as you choose to." And that was a reflection made post-fog years. After he had been bullied badly by Geer.
Of course, that's so easy to say. When what's happened has ripped your life away from you. When a spouse has walked out, a child has died, or whatever. When, as an immature teenager, as Bolshevik was, you don't have the ability to walk away from it, to leave it behind, to see other people's problems as just that - their problems. Not yours.
I wonder how long it took LCM to get over being slung out from his Presidency and from TWI. How hurt he was, how many regrets he had. I wonder if he suffered as much as some posters here have suffered. And whether he learned any lessons. (From BecomingMe's posts, it seems not.) But that's a whole nother story.
It's a fine balancing line - the one between independence, and interdependence.
we are social creatures entwined by a messy thing called life
Even the bully LCM said, "You stay hurt [emotionally] as long as you choose to." And that was a reflection made post-fog years. After he had been bullied badly by Geer.
Of course, that's so easy to say. When what's happened has ripped your life away from you. When a spouse has walked out, a child has died, or whatever. When, as an immature teenager, as Bolshevik was, you don't have the ability to walk away from it, to leave it behind, to see other people's problems as just that - their problems. Not yours.
I wonder how long it took LCM to get over being slung out from his Presidency and from TWI. How hurt he was, how many regrets he had. I wonder if he suffered as much as some posters here have suffered. And whether he learned any lessons. (From BecomingMe's posts, it seems not.) But that's a whole nother story.
It's a fine balancing line - the one between independence, and interdependence.
Well when I tell legal people what happened . . is this website making me a liar?
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Rocky
Do you mean "criminal case" rather than having used "federal case?" Hence the potential catastrophe of a class action civil suit to twi. In such a situation a $65 million treasury wouldn
chockfull
So looking at the latest views of wayfers regarding their founding President, you have to wonder are they seriously conflicted over topics such as the title of this thread? Or more, like me in th
Twinky
Bolshevik, have you heard of "coercive control"? It can include where the victim (and yes, there is a victim) feels compelled to perform certain acts by a person in some sort of trusted, or supe
Rocky
A man (person) hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. So be it. And far be it from me to bicker with you about it.
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Twinky
Bolshevik, have you heard of "coercive control"?
It can include where the victim (and yes, there is a victim) feels compelled to perform certain acts by a person in some sort of trusted, or superior, position. Examples: a husband beating his wife, or restricting her access to money; a boss requiring sexual favors of an employee; teachers/pupils and so on. Can include doctors, clergymen, and other professionals abusing their professional responsibilities.
You must surely be aware of the amount of coercion at TWI HQ. Some is fairly subtle and some is blatantly overt, with lots of shade in between. LCM coerced Mrs A, and other women. It's abuse, pure and simple. An offence against the women, their husbands, and against God. It's no different from the records in 1 Sam. And I very much doubt God's opinion has changed in the last 3,000 or so years, such as to condone such behavior.
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penworks
Twinky, thank you for spelling out how coercive control works. It is critical to understanding the terrible and inexcusable sex abuse by TWI leaders and other sorts of leaders around the world.
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Bolshevik
The teaching career version of me is very aware of that. Mandatory courses on the subject.
The teenager version doesn't understand why theses matter were hammered into his skull, altering the course of his life negatively.
Mr. Allen did not protect his wife. He knew better than to put his wife in that position. You cite a husband as a perpetrator.
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Bolshevik
Sure. But could have been a private matter?
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OldSkool
The Allen's tried that route, that I know for sure. Before it blew up publicly they tried to meet with Craig but apparently that didn't go as planned and their only recourse was the courts. That meeting was the one that happened in the conference room next to computer services when Craig had linder show up with a holstered gun. The Allen's weren't given much of a choice.
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Bolshevik
By private I mean go to court but why blast across the internet? Were the rest of us responsible?
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Bolshevik
Linder holding a gun, I assume holstered . . . he's a deputy sheriff as was someone else. He was security.
deputy sheriff? They were with the police, Shelby County I think.
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Bolshevik
I got pinned to the ground by one of them during training
Some of those accusations weren't appreciated I supposed
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OldSkool
I can't speak to Paul's actual reasoning but it was a David vs Goliath kinda thing. Legally the internet became leverage because the directors hate sunshine.
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Bolshevik
Leverage can be dangerous, and cuts both ways.
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OldSkool
Yeah...gotta say nobody really won. Just damage everywhere. Was messy.
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WordWolf
IMHO, twi lost more because it had more to lose, and insisted on handling things only as quietly as their lawyers insisted. twi mgmt was used to handling everything in bad faith and getting away with it because they were bullies.
That changed as soon as someone called them on it and brought in secular law.
BTW, to answer an earlier question....
There were 2 ways to try to address this- as a federal case, and as a civil case.
As a federal case, if lcm was found guilty, he'd probably go to prison, but the evidence had to pass a higher standard- guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
With a civil case, they could sue for damages (a money amount), but the standard was simpler- the preponderance of the evidence.
The suers went the simpler route- which was smart. They had a much better chance of winning the suit, and when they went public, other people started to speak up. At the advice of their lawyers, twi settled out of court rather than have all those people brought up on the witness stand. (Judges have been known to increase penalties in civil suits if they feel someone's getting away too lightly, although this is not common.)
The suers won a settlement- but had to close their website as part of the settlement. However, people had begun to communicate freely, so another website was begun, and twi has dearly wished it would close- twi has hemorrhaged members and many of them point to the GSC as part of the reason they left.
As for lcm, at the advice of their lawyers, twi jettisoned him as a liability. So, he didn't go to prison, but he was kicked off the pulpit and allegedly out of twi.
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Bolshevik
Followers presumably only knowing how to follow . . . perhaps another thread to explain what this means?
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OldSkool
I can't answer for wordwolf as to what exactly he meant, however, I was front and center at HQ and in my apprentice year of my way corps training. Basically, when the Allens stepped up and spoke out the damn of dissent broke and there was a lot of people who spoke up.
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Bolshevik
At HQ or on the internet? The internet brings in people who otherwise should not be involved.
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WordWolf
twi was and is always interested in controlling the microphone, and having only their POV be spoken, suppressing dissent whenever possible.
With discussion on a website twi didn't control, suddenly, there was an opportunity to speak that wasn't controlled by twi. Those who had been hurt by them especially had something to say, and had been conditioned to keep silent- but now there was another option.
People began to speak and give their points of view. Although many of those were supportive of twi (at least at first), twi hated their inability to control the discussion. So, it snowballed from then, with more and more speaking, and more and more speaking about how twi hurt them, and more women began speaking about how lcm "messed with" them. That last part would have been especially bad for twi if those women were subpoenaed to appear in court and tell what they know. They could have brought a class-action suit that would have EMPTIED the twi coffers. So, the lawyers insisted twi settle QUICKLY and QUIETLY with the A||3ns.
Once people had gotten the idea it was ok to communicate freely, they did so. Having a site to communicate made it easy. twi's hated the idea ever since.
BTW. that's why twi strong-armed their own follower into closing his pro-twi messageboard. Despite him being pro-twi and deleting posts that weren't RABIDLY PRO-twi and closing accounts for anyone who posted anything other than enthusiastic for twi, it wasn't under their direct control, so they leaned on him to shut it down.
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OldSkool
HQ, field and staff way corps, grads on the field. A lot of people left and the only voice they had was the internet. The blame lies squarley on VPW for training craig martindale to prey on the flock. Whenever that happens it should be made public, not hidden. Now, Im with you as far a scripture is concerned - and if that had happened we wouldn't be here. But Paul and his wife did try to confront him face to face and it went nowhere.
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Rocky
Do you mean "criminal case" rather than having used "federal case?"
Hence the potential catastrophe of a class action civil suit to twi. In such a situation a $65 million treasury wouldn't go very far. Rosie knew that. She (and whoever with her) decided to survive and make twi survive by settling with the Allens.
Note today's news that a jury awarded a certain broadcaster's Connecticut victims (of his harassment) nearly a BILLION dollars.
Until one or more follower decides to step up and lead.
And we have known since well before the emergence of the interwebs, sunlight is the BEST disinfectant. Waydale wasn't responsible for your emotional pain.
Life is inherently unfair. Factors enter into situations beyond what anyone can control. You probably know that on an intellectual level, even though your emotions may be holding you to a different perspective and framework for understanding and coping with your experience.
NOBODY instigating the shining of sunlight on the evil actions of Loy or the evil subculture enabling him necessarily had ANY idea of possible collateral damage inflicted on innocent bystanders.
Stephen Covey, the late author of 7 Habits of Highly EFFECTIVE People wrote,
“But I kept thinking about it. I really went inside myself and began to ask, ‘Do I have the power to choose my response?’ “When I finally realized that I do have that power, when I swallowed that bitter pill and realized that I had chosen to be miserable, I also realized that I could choose not to be miserable. “At that moment I stood up. I felt as though I was being let out of San Quentin. I wanted to yell to the whole world, ‘I am free! I am let out of prison! No longer am I going to be controlled by the treatment of some person.’”
***
It’s not what happens to us, but our response to what happens to us that hurts us. Of course, things can hurt us physically or economically and can cause sorrow. But our character, our basic identity, does not have to be hurt at all. In fact, our most difficult experiences become the crucibles that forge our character and develop the internal powers, the freedom to handle difficult circumstances in the future and to inspire others to do so as well.
Covey, Stephen R.. The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change (pp. 80-81). Rosetta Books. Kindle Edition.
My divorce and custody disputes, in and about which I was easily able to find information clearly demonstrating that what happened to me was grossly unfair and hurtful, became crucibles for me. I couldn't control the situations and too many of the outcomes. Yet, as unjust as those events were, and as emotionally difficult as they were for me, I have emerged (nearly 30 years after my divorce) much more emotionally mature and able to handle difficult situations and emotions than I ever was.
Edited by RockyAnd like you, Bolshevik, the hurt I endured was outside my control and directly traceable to the teachings and culture of wierwilleism. Like me, it may take you a long time to emerge from the crucible, but you can and you will.
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OldSkool
Yessir! The judge in the Allen case said in his summary (paraphrasing) that of the six counts charged in the case, four of those charges WERE going to trial and one of those charges was RICO. So I bet the plaintiff's lawyers had a boat load of witnesses ready to go!
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Rocky
No doubt.
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Twinky
Even the bully LCM said, "You stay hurt [emotionally] as long as you choose to." And that was a reflection made post-fog years. After he had been bullied badly by Geer.
Of course, that's so easy to say. When what's happened has ripped your life away from you. When a spouse has walked out, a child has died, or whatever. When, as an immature teenager, as Bolshevik was, you don't have the ability to walk away from it, to leave it behind, to see other people's problems as just that - their problems. Not yours.
I wonder how long it took LCM to get over being slung out from his Presidency and from TWI. How hurt he was, how many regrets he had. I wonder if he suffered as much as some posters here have suffered. And whether he learned any lessons. (From BecomingMe's posts, it seems not.) But that's a whole nother story.
It's a fine balancing line - the one between independence, and interdependence.
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T-Bone
we are social creatures entwined by a messy thing called life
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Bolshevik
Well when I tell legal people what happened . . is this website making me a liar?
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