Ten Years of Unbelief

[Raf]

It was late August of 2012 when I confronted myself about my wavering faith. I was coming to terms with my sister's impending death (from ALS) and my son's autism diagnosis. A lot of people don't believe me, but those two issues did not lead me to doubt God. Rather, they exposed the doubt that was already in my heart.

How?

I remember asking people to pray for my sister, but I don't remember asking to pray for her healing. And not once did I pray for my son's deliverance from autism. Just for strategies and help coping.

That's how I remember it, anyway. I could be mistaken. But I do know at some point in both those experiences, the notion of a miracle was not seriously entertained.

I think one of the things people don't understand about losing faith is that it's not a decision. It's never one thing. It's a realization. Over a great deal of time I realized I was not praying the way I used to. Years of asking for something and getting nothing taught me to ask for nothing. The long, slow realization about the nature of the Bible could not be overcome. And, as a straw that broke the camel's back, my search for evidence that first century believers in a position to know for a fact that Jesus was raised went to their deaths rather than renounce that faith... turned up not a solitary shred of supporting evidence.

I finally realized there was no longer any belief that I held that could qualify me as a Christian. 

I had to sort through my thoughts and feelings. Reject God outright? No, I would have to know EVERYTHING to know that (spoiler alert: that's bulls#!t). So I told myself I was agnostic. Then I realized that being agnostic is not incompatible with being atheist. One is a "lack of knowledge" claim. The other is a "lack of belief" claim. You could be both. Most atheists are.

I eventually came to the conclusion that the agnostic/atheist dichotomy was not a discussion worth having. Most people don't subscribe to it, and you end up sounding defensive for no reason.

When it comes to the existence of any god worth discussing, I am an atheist. Period.

When it comes to the existence of some abstract concept of gotchagod, I'm agnostic, but only to the extent that such a god defies definition and testable attributes. 

Why am I not agnostic? Because Yawheh is a fictional character whose attributes changed over time according to what his creators needed for storytelling purposes, much like Superman and Captain America. He had a wife once. Israel went from recognizing many gods, of whom Yahweh was fiercely jealous, to acknowledging only one, which mad His jealousy wildly irrational.

All those other gods? Oh, they didn't exist. Or they were demonstrations of Satan's power. Except Satan is an imaginary character too, whose attributes are comically vague. He bad. No good things. Accuser. Needs Yahweh's permission to murder Job's family. And Yahweh GRANTS IT. What the bloody...

Anyway, back from THAT tangent.

So now it's been 10 years. Now and then I feel an urge to explore some facet of what I once believed. Not often. For example, I believe the 12 are largely fictional characters. Not all of them. Peter, James and John were real. Judas was a fake. Paul (who certainly existed) refers to Jesus being seen of "the 12" not because Judas was still alive after the crucifixion, but because the story of his betrayal had not been made up yet.

But they're just mental exercises at this point. My main concern with religion is that government stays out of its way and that it stays out of government's way. 

I guess we can say it's not a phase.

[Raf]

By the way (no pun intended), if you had told me in 2002 that 20 years from now I would be an atheist and oldiesman would be a Catholic, I'd have said you were insane.

[T-Bone]

7 hours ago, Raf said:

...So now it's been 10 years. Now and then I feel an urge to explore some facet of what I once believed...

...My main concern with religion is that government stays out of its way and that it stays out of government's way. 

 

 

Raf, I always appreciate your posts…    Now and then I too feel an urge to explore some facet of what I once believed. I find your posts inspirational in that regard…I used to feel uncomfortable engaging atheists, agnostics, and folks with other non-TWI viewpoints until I realized the analytical benefit was that I could get down to the nuts and bolts of a certain topic. That methodical process helped me let go of rigid fundamentalism while at the same time embrace some basic aspect of my faith. Does that make sense?    I’m not into labels – but if that puts some folks at ease – I’m some sort of a Christian agnostic…or maybe I’m in the category of Liberal Christianity…Liberal Theology…Christian Modernism…whatever...how about just call me T-Bone   

though when it comes to superhero movies, I still have an old-fashioned preference for the 1978 Superman starring Christopher Reeve.  (it’s more about the romance of Kal-El and Lois than special effects)

 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

 

My main concern with religion is that government stays out of its way and that it stays out of government's way     …I’m with you on that !

 

 

6 hours ago, Raf said:

By the way (no pun intended), if you had told me in 2002 that 20 years from now I would be an atheist and oldiesman would be a Catholic, I'd have said you were insane.

And by the way – if you would have told me in 1985 that in 37 years, I would be a Grease Spot sharing about the woes of being in a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International, I would have said “get behind me Satan.” While I was in TWI, anytime the thought of leaving, tripping out, or copping out crossed my mind – I would nip it in the bud as being inconceivable.

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by T-Bone
editing typos? inconceivable!

[Twinky]

Appreciate your questioning and honest minds, Raf and T-Bone.  I do think that codified religion and many hierarchical church systems are a big turn-off.  And that includes TWI's branch of hierarchy.

There are times (and many Christians admit to this) when you wonder (or doubt) why you believe something, why you believe in God, whether it's all a big con job.  In the same way, perhaps, as one wonders why they're married to this annoying person, why they don't walk out on these disruptive kids, why they don't just get rid of the annoying pet.  And then, the wonderer remembers why they choose to believe rather than doubt, to stay, to keep, etc.  That's honestly loving.

Do we not make loving God too complex with manmade rules, strictures, words, robes, etc?  And we forget, sometimes, that it's not just a personal, individual love, but a corporate / community love too.  A way of living with other people.

Micah 6:8  What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Matt 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets

Mark 12:30,31 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ ^f 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ^g There is no commandment greater than these.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means [including over-complicated churchy stuff], as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Raf, you act in a loving, kind way, taking care of your wife and kids, trying to avoid fights and looking after the needy.  You're keeping it simple, bro.  

I respect your position (just as I respect the position of a friend of mine, a muslim convert from Catholicism), know the reasons why, but I don't properly comprehend the decisions either of you made.

[Nathan_Jr]

50 minutes ago, Twinky said:

the simplicity that is in Christ.

Every verse you cited points to this. Just this.

No "class" can lead anyone to this. No dogma. No teacher. No authority. No systematic theology. No funny mathematics. One must find out for one's self. And when does find out, freedom, liberty, power and love abound.

I, personally, don't identify as Christian. I don't identify with any particular religion, but I fully understand this. No one taught it to me, no one can. And I don't pretend that I can teach it to anyone else.

Thank you for this, Twinky.

[Oakspear]

I just went through all my old Messenger messages...found the one where you messaged me about being an agnostic

[modcat5]

Yeah, that had to be like day one or two. I embraced "atheist" very quickly.

[chockfull]

On 2/8/2023 at 7:30 AM, modcat5 said:

Yeah, that had to be like day one or two. I embraced "atheist" very quickly.

I’m a bit late in this thread but I celebrate with you your choice as to inspiration.

I feel that an honest evaluation of faith sources from a fundamentalist view with either lead to the rejection of fundamentalism or the rejection of the Christian story completely.

Rather than lecture you on it I will celebrate the strength that a doubting Thomas mentality brings to the table.  You help keep it real.

In my faith my God would understand your consternation and not hold it against you.

Please continue to contribute here and don’t be restricted by your perceived “religion” or lack of it.

I enjoy the interaction.

[Charity]

On 9/12/2022 at 1:38 PM, Raf said:

I think one of the things people don't understand about losing faith is that it's not a decision. It's never one thing. It's a realization. Over a great deal of time I realized I was not praying the way I used to. Years of asking for something and getting nothing taught me to ask for nothing. The long, slow realization about the nature of the Bible could not be overcome. And, as a straw that broke the camel's back, my search for evidence that first century believers in a position to know for a fact that Jesus was raised went to their deaths rather than renounce that faith... turned up not a solitary shred of supporting evidence.

Raf, below is a website on the death of Stephen in the book of Acts.  It’s from the website called Vridar.  It references quite a bit the book “Acts and Christian Beginnings: The Acts Seminar Report Paperback – Sept. 23 2013”

https://vridar.org/2013/11/26/the-fiction-of-stephen-the-first-martyr/

Was there one or two resources you looked at when researching this topic?

 

[Raf]

Actually, no. There was a hunt for reliable information about the fates of the apostles, but almost all of it was based on conjecture (including Peter and Paul's deaths in Rome, though we at least know Peter and Paul existed).  Some apostles had multiple executions. 

In short, the best evidence we have for the resurrection, for which there is no evidence, is the fate of the apostles, for which there is no evidence.

 

[chockfull]

I find remarkably little provable evidence in most critical textualism.

https://study.com/learn/lesson/euclidean-geometry-overview-history-examples.html#:~:text=Euclidean geometry refers to the,around the year 300 BCE.

I look at Euclid and his concepts.  He wrote down a few observations.  Years later they were turned into postulates and people derived whole semesters of torture for students starting with his words lol.

Now we can manufacture and print amazing objects in 3D geometry.

However in direct contrast most philosophical and religious discussions devolve into a sheer waste of time with no notable progress anywhere.

Faith in Jesus Christ would be the only postulate to form the correct math to me anyway.  But the garbage people derive from that and call geometry or Christianity is missing logic and inspiration.