Bless his heart, Mike is nothing if not persistent in his Quixotic endeavor to rationalize what he believes is the NON error of Wierwille's ways and teaching.
My "first thought" when reading his latest post had something to do with an essay Princeton (University, not divinity school) Philosophy Prof (emeritus) Harry Frankfurt once wrote on the massive proliferation of BS in modern life. But I'm thankful for those who rebutted Mike's malarkey.
Item #1
The truths Leonard taught belonged to God, from Whom he got some good revelations. He also had error. VPW's job was to collect these revelations God had given to Leonard and to many others and "put it all together."
There were items in VPW's teachings that were not in Leonard's teachings.
There were items in Leonard's teachings that were NOT in VPW's teachings.
He filtered out Leonard's errors for us. That is the actual history. VPW righteously collected what God told him to collect and teach. I totally reject the ideas you folks nurture here on copyrights and originality and ownership. None of that market stuff or academic stuff belongs in God's family. God gives revelation and He owns it.
MAybe I'm going out on a limb of common sense here, but why didn't God just give the error free revelation to wierwille in the first place? Why would he need wierwille to collect all these materials and make them error free.
Another question: If wierwille made them error free then why has the way international been revising and editing his materials for 37 years now specifically to remove errors and make his materials agree with each other? My former wife was very involved in that process as one of the lead copy editors and I know dang good and well wierwille's works were full of errors and I'm not talking punctuation here. Im talking doctrinal content that had to be queried from way publications to presidents publications to the then research department coordinator D@vid Ch@vousti3. What would all of that be necessary if wierwille made anything error free?
Mike: VPW righteously collected what God told him to collect and teach.I totally reject the ideas you folks nurture here on copyrights and originality and ownership.None of that market stuff or academic stuff belongs in God's family. God gives revelation and He owns it.
T-Bone:Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.Isaiah 5:20…and another thing – what proof does anyone have of God telling wierwille what to collect and teach? Other than wierwille claiming that! Were there others who witnessed this “historic” and phenomenal event?
Excellent responese T-Bone.
Mike - so you are saying it's ok for people to steal because everything belongs to God. That logic could hold true over anything then if it were to hold true over intellectual property. Why not go steal your neighbor's chainsaw? I mean God created all the raw material to make it. But lemme ask you this - The way international holds the copyrights for VPW's stolen materials including, but not limited to, PFAL - classes and books. Why do they so aggressively defend their copyrights in court if none of it matters? And to be clear, I'm don't even care about copyright matters in this case. Im concerened with the complete lack of godly ethics from the supposed man of God. Stealing is stealing and God condemns it whenever and wherever it occurs. Just because wierwille stole intellectual works it's still stealing. But you wierwille fan boys have to move heaven and earth aside to rationalize the lies your idol told of himself. My advice, toss Wierwille out the picture and dedicate your life to following Christ and his teachings.
Mike - so you are saying it's ok for people to steal because everything belongs to God. That logic could hold true over anything then if it were to hold true over intellectual property. Why not go steal your neighbor's chainsaw? I mean God created all the raw material to make it.
No, you got it COMPLETELY wrong !
I never, ever, ever said anything so stupid. or even similar to "... it's ok for people to steal because everything belongs to God."
It takes a special intelligence to think anyone could speak that way. I suggest you re-read everything that I wrote here, and see if you were as far off with other things as this.
*/*/*/*
People like Kenyon and Leonard were men of God, dedicated to God's people. God gave them (and many others) some revelations SO THAT they could bless His people with them. God wanted us blessed so He told VPW what to collect from them for us. God was the owner of these revelations, and He didn't have to ask Leonard for earthly, legal copyright permission to tell VPW to get the goods for more of God's people to be blessed. God cares little for the market or the academia ouch from this, which is infinitesimally small for the market and zero for academia.
Have you ever wondered why no one sued VPW for copyrights? I think they refrained because they know that they got if from God, and that it was going to bless God's people in a different niche of the market.
But lemme ask you this - The way international holds the copyrights for VPW's stolen materials including, but not limited to, PFAL - classes and books. Why do they so aggressively defend their copyrights in court if none of it matters? And to be clear, I'm don't even care about copyright matters in this case. Im concerened with the complete lack of godly ethics from the supposed man of God. Stealing is stealing and God condemns it whenever and wherever it occurs.
You are not the one to judge that this is stealing, nor is any court. I suppose you would object to Jacob stealing Esau's birthright? It was against the law for Tyndale to translate the Bible into English, but he did it, and paid for it with his life. SUCH a lawbreaker~!!!
God is not a blind, mechanical, human judge like you want Him to be. He knew Esau did not value the birthright and that Jacob did. He knows that we needed what He had BG Leonard bang out the first draft for.
*/*/*/*/*
TWI's lawyers have been advising them for decades that if they allow any flagrant, public misuse of the materials, and they DON'T prosecute (or make an recorded effort to do so) then others can come along later and misuse the materials much worse. If this happens TWI would not be able to make a good case in court to win such a later case. By public and flagrant misuse I mean selling them on Amazon or E-Bay.
I have privately let leaders there know that I have bootleg copies of the class. They can figure it out from all the passages I have posted here, plus I even called Howard Allen in 1988 to let him know what was going on. Me and many others were busy making copies of things to serve as backups and insurance against any more TWI crashes like the 1986 crash. I was ready to go to jail for it. We had dedicated our lives to God's class and no TWI was going to take it away from us.
Just because wierwille stole intellectual works it's still stealing.
Again, you demonstrate a complete disconnect with the points I make.
It had NOTHING to do with it being intellectual work.
It has EVERYTHING to do with Who the Author was of those revelations.
Why are you unable to understand what I write?
Try making a flash card:
"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deut 29:29
But you wierwille fan boys have to move heaven and earth aside to rationalize the lies your idol told of himself. My advice, toss Wierwille out the picture and dedicate your life to following Christ and his teachings.
No, we fans of God and Jesus move heaven and earth to get closer to God and better anticipate the Return of His Son, Jesus Christ. The PFAL teachings have taught us how to read the Bible. I owe my life to the revelations from God that I learned (and am still learning) in PFAL.
*/*/*/*
You asked earlier (I think it was you) why the many edits and fine tunings of the collaterals.
In the class we heard 2 possible reasons for errors creeping into the text: printers and proofreaders. There were a few small steps between what VPW finally approved for printing and what gets printed. Some errors happen here.
Another is that we all tend, like Eve, to add/subtract/change to everything we hear. People like Kenyon and Leonard could do that too. So there could be errors mixed in with their materials.
But there are much deeper reasons also, having to do with Key #4b from the 16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit in the AC. He elaborates much on this in an old SNS tape from 1965 where he explains the 1942 promise and how it worked.
BTW, Wordwolf, your history on this is dead wrong. He told of the 1942 promise much earlier than in the 1972 "The Way Living in Love" that you posted. The tape you need to add to your memory is SNS 214 Selling Plurality in Acts 10-17-65. A large parenthesis within that tape was cut out and placed on a separate cassette that was widely circulated around the 1986 meltdown, and called it "Light Began to Dawn." I posted the entire transcript here once or twice, but it may have been deleted.
Back to you Oldskool. This same 1965 tape, that I just mentioned to Wordwolf, will give you more insights into how revelation can work. Key #4b says "...What you can know by your five senses God expects you to know. He documents on the tape that most of the research was 5 senses, and when he got stuck, THEN God would help him. There are good reasons for God to do it this way. It drives it deeper into the researcher if it is done this way.
Now VPW had more data on receiving revelation in other places.
In the Corps Teaching for Thessalonians, when he gets to verses 1:1 in each Epistle he explains why Silas and Timothy were mentioned, and looking to our eyes like authors with Paul. VPW teaches here that the revelation of the Word did not generally come by "divine dictation" where it is perfect the first time through. Usually people are not big enough to receive it all in one sitting. It tool years for Paul to rise up to get the full mystery revelation. Generally, people can't handle such a large pure shot.
In those Thessalonians teachings he says that first Paul would receive a revelation, and then discuss it with Silas and Timothy. Then all three together would put it into written form, until the whole Epistle was written. Silas and Timothy acted as editors and brainstormers for Paul as to how the written form should be. Both of them were experienced, like minded, and had the same spirit connection with God that Paul had. The TWI publications people were just like this.
VPW had his own methods for working a revelation he would receive, but they roughly paralleled what I outlined above about Paul. It was largely a 5 senses effort, collecting items God had placed in the "market," and with God guiding and revealing when necessary.
There are other points to consider here, but that is a start.
People like Kenyon and Leonard were men of God, dedicated to God's people. God gave them (and many others) some revelations SO THAT they could bless His people with them. God wanted us blessed so He told VPW what to collect from them for us. God was the owner of these revelations, and He didn't have to ask Leonard for earthly, legal copyright permission to tell VPW to get the goods for more of God's people to be blessed. God cares little for the market or the academia ouch from this, which is infinitesimally small for the market and zero for academia.
Have you ever wondered why no one sued VPW for copyrights? I think they refrained because they know that they got if from God, and that it was going to bless God's people in a different niche of the market.
But lemme ask you this - The way international holds the copyrights for VPW's stolen materials including, but not limited to, PFAL - classes and books. Why do they so aggressively defend their copyrights in court if none of it matters? And to be clear, I'm don't even care about copyright matters in this case. Im concerened with the complete lack of godly ethics from the supposed man of God. Stealing is stealing and God condemns it whenever and wherever it occurs.
You are not the one to judge that this is stealing, nor is any court. I suppose you would object to Jacob stealing Esau's birthright? It was against the law for Tyndale to translate the Bible into English, but he did it, and paid for it with his life. SUCH a lawbreaker~!!!
God is not a blind, mechanical, human judge like you want Him to be. He knew Esau did not value the birthright and that Jacob did. He knows that we needed what He had BG Leonard bang out the first draft for.
*/*/*/*/*
TWI's lawyers have been advising them for decades that if they allow any flagrant, public misuse of the materials, and they DON'T prosecute (or make an recorded effort to do so) then others can come along later and misuse the materials much worse. If this happens TWI would not be able to make a good case in court to win such a later case. By public and flagrant misuse I mean selling them on Amazon or E-Bay.
I have privately let leaders there know that I have bootleg copies of the class. They can figure it out from all the passages I have posted here, plus I even called Howard Allen in 1988 to let him know what was going on. Me and many others were busy making copies of things to serve as backups and insurance against any more TWI crashes like the 1986 crash. I was ready to go to jail for it. We had dedicated our lives to God's class and no TWI was going to take it away from us.
Just because wierwille stole intellectual works it's still stealing.
Again, you demonstrate a complete disconnect with the points I make.
It had NOTHING to do with it being intellectual work.
It has EVERYTHING to do with Who the Author was of those revelations.
Why are you unable to understand what I write?
Try making a flash card:
"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deut 29:29
But you wierwille fan boys have to move heaven and earth aside to rationalize the lies your idol told of himself. My advice, toss Wierwille out the picture and dedicate your life to following Christ and his teachings.
No, we fans of God and Jesus move heaven and earth to get closer to God and better anticipate the Return of His Son, Jesus Christ. The PFAL teachings have taught us how to read the Bible. I owe my life to the revelations from God that I learned (and am still learning) in PFAL.
*/*/*/*
You asked earlier (I think it was you) why the many edits and fine tunings of the collaterals.
In the class we heard 2 possible reasons for errors creeping into the text: printers and proofreaders. There were a few small steps between what VPW finally approved for printing and what gets printed. Some errors happen here.
Another is that we all tend, like Eve, to add/subtract/change to everything we hear. People like Kenyon and Leonard could do that too. So there could be errors mixed in with their materials.
But there are much deeper reasons also, having to do with Key #4b from the 16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit in the AC. He elaborates much on this in an old SNS tape from 1965 where he explains the 1942 promise and how it worked.
BTW, Wordwolf, your history on this is dead wrong. He told of the 1942 promise much earlier than in the 1972 "The Way Living in Love" that you posted. The tape you need to add to your memory is SNS 214 Selling Plurality in Acts 10-17-65. A large parenthesis within that tape was cut out and placed on a separate cassette that was widely circulated around the 1986 meltdown, and called it "Light Began to Dawn." I posted the entire transcript here once or twice, but it may have been deleted.
Back to you Oldskool. This same 1965 tape, that I just mentioned to Wordwolf, will give you more insights into how revelation can work. Key #4b says "...What you can know by your five senses God expects you to know. He documents on the tape that most of the research was 5 senses, and when he got stuck, THEN God would help him. There are good reasons for God to do it this way. It drives it deeper into the researcher if it is done this way.
Now VPW had more data on receiving revelation in other places.
In the Corps Teaching for Thessalonians, when he gets to verses 1:1 in each Epistle he explains why Silas and Timothy were mentioned, and looking to our eyes like authors with Paul. VPW teaches here that the revelation of the Word did not generally come by "divine dictation" where it is perfect the first time through. Usually people are not big enough to receive it all in one sitting. It tool years for Paul to rise up to get the full mystery revelation. Generally, people can't handle such a large pure shot.
In those Thessalonians teachings he says that first Paul would receive a revelation, and then discuss it with Silas and Timothy. Then all three together would put it into written form, until the whole Epistle was written. Silas and Timothy acted as editors and brainstormers for Paul as to how the written form should be. Both of them were experienced, like minded, and had the same spirit connection with God that Paul had. The TWI publications people were just like this.
VPW had his own methods for working a revelation he would receive, but they roughly paralleled what I outlined above about Paul. It was largely a 5 senses effort, collecting items God had placed in the "market," and with God guiding and revealing when necessary.
There are other points to consider here, but that is a start.
There is so much nonsense to sift through here – truly a daunting task - but I’m up for taking a stab at isolating some of the bull$hit…this is a target rich environment so there’ll be plenty of fair game for other Grease Spotters.
Mike: People like Kenyon and Leonard were men of God, dedicated to God's people. God gave them (and many others) some revelations SO THAT they could bless His people with them. God wanted us blessed so He told VPW what to collect from them for us.
T-Bone: Hold onto your seat, Mike.
I would like to offer you the red pill which represents truth, and the way things work in the real world: human beings have cognitive abilities which is something that healthy human beings are born with or develop as they grow. Cognitive abilities are mental skills used in the process of acquiring knowledge, the manipulation of information, reasoning, and problem-solving. They have more to do with the mechanisms of how people learn rather than with actual knowledge.
Mike, as best as I can gather from all your years of posting on Grease Spot Café is that it seems to me you have adopted wierwille’s lazy and plagiarizing mindset – apparently YOU DOUBT that people are capable of thinking, problem-solving and creating / inventing. wierwille frequently disparaged cognitive skills – exemplified best in a Sunday Night Teaching tape “Carnal Versus Spiritual” on which he said some fascinating goofball statements without any pertinent Scripture references to support his claims. The following are a few of his preposterous claims on the tape:
1. Psychologists talk about the subconscious…they’ve never been there…it’s actually the mind of the spirit.
2. Alllearning comes by way of the five senses…When you’re born again you now have another avenue of learning – the spirit.
3. It’s Christ behind every cell of your being…even behind your brain cells.
4. All the great discoveries and inventions come by way of the spirit – revelation.
5. It’s not because you have such a high IQ – it’s because God has such a high IQ.
6. Countries without Christ do not invent.
Apparently wierwille had a very low opinion of a human being’s cognitive skills…If I had to guess why he felt that way – I’d say it’s probably because he was lazy and incompetent – I mean, why else would he plagiarize so much? To be honest, I have a very low opinion of wierwille’s cognitive skills.
Of course, you do have the option to take the blue pill representing a return to the blissful delusion of wierwille’s ideology.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: God was the owner of these revelations, and He didn't have to ask Leonard for earthly, legal copyright permission to tell VPW to get the goods for more of God's people to be blessed. God cares little for the market or the academia ouch from this, which is infinitesimally small for the market and zero for academia.
T-Bone:*** broken record alert *** you used this unscrupulous argument in a previous post…and so the *** fight broken records with broken records countermeasures *** has been activated… flooding tube 4 …tube 4 flooded……opening outer door…outer door open…fire tube 4:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.Isaiah 5:20…and another thing – what proof does anyone have of God telling wierwille what to collect and teach? Other than wierwille claiming that! Were there others who witnessed this “historic” and phenomenal event?
A just balance and scales belong to the LORD; All the weights of the bag are His concern.Proverbs 16:11 NASB. The LORD demands accurate scales and balances; he sets the standards for fairness.Proverbs 16:11 NLT . Maybe it’s just me – but I didn’t think it was possible that someone could have such devoted loyalty to a plagiarizing pseudo-Christian cult-leader like wierwille that they would wholeheartedly come to his defense even though it means flat out contradicting God’s demands for ACCURACY and HONESTY in the marketplace or even in any personal business.
furthermore, another error in your argument that I need to point out – if someone gives me a gift – then they don’t own it – I do!
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: …You are not the one to judge that this is stealing, nor is any court. I suppose you would object to Jacob stealing Esau's birthright? It was against the law for Tyndale to translate the Bible into English, but he did it, and paid for it with his life. SUCH a lawbreaker~!!!
God is not a blind, mechanical, human judge like you want him to be. He knew Esau did not value the birthright and Jacob did. He knows that we needed what He had BG Leonard bang out the first draft for.
T-Bone: You might want to review this gobbledygook argument – and try to give a clear and simple reason why you have set YOURSELF up as the absolute authority over and above any courts, the rule of law, the ethical demands of the Bible, and even the sense of ownership and responsibility that is common to all humans…Just wondering. Who put you in charge? What are your qualifications? Got any references?
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: …I have privately let leaders there know that I have bootleg copies of the class. They can figure it out from all the passages I have posted here, plus I even called Howard Allen in 1988 to let him know what was going on. Me and many others were busy making copies of things to serve as backups and insurance against any more TWI crashes like the 1986 crash. I was ready to go to jail for it. We had dedicated our lives to God's class and no TWI was going to take it away from us.
T-Bone: Ah ha! You’ve been taking the blue pill for quite a while I see. Well that explains it.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: Again, you demonstrate a complete disconnect with the points I make.
It had NOTHING to do with it being intellectual work.
It has EVERYTHING to do with Who the Author was of those revelations.
Why are you unable to understand what I write?
Try making flash card:
"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deut 29:29
T-Bone: okay, we’re back to repeating oldies but goodies…
*** broken record alert *** this is not a drill *** *** fight broken records with broken records countermeasures has been reactivated *** répétez s’il vous plait (we must be on a French sub – the underwater warship - NOT the sandwich…interprets itself right in the verse)reload tube 4 with flash card warheads… …tube 4 reloaded with flash card warheads… flooding tube 4… …tube 4 flooded…opening outer door…outer door open…fire tube 4:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.Isaiah 5:20…and another thing – what proof does anyone have of God telling wierwille what to collect and teach? Other than wierwille claiming that! Were there others who witnessed this “historic” and phenomenal event?
A just balance and scales belong to the LORD; All the weights of the bag are His concern.Proverbs 16:11 NASB. The LORD demands accurate scales and balances; he sets the standards for fairness.Proverbs 16:11 NLT . Maybe it’s just me – but I didn’t think it was possible that someone could have such devoted loyalty to a plagiarizing pseudo-Christian cult-leader like wierwille that they would wholeheartedly come to his defense even though it means flat out contradicting God’s demands for ACCURACY and HONESTY in the marketplace or even in any personal business.
furthermore, another error in your argument that I need to point out – if someone gives me a gift – then they don’t own it – I do!
~ ~ ~ ~
Coming soon to a Betamax Home Fellowship Theater near you:
The Hunt for Copies of the PFAL Class
And be on the lookout for the WW2 (wierwille’s wonky 2 ) classic Das Bootleg
Imagine reliving the thrill of stretched coffee
Endure the cramped sleeping arrangements of metal folding chairs
Experience surround sound: the class participating in a snooze fest zzzzZZZZ ZZzzz
Enjoy the freedom to binge watch all 12 sessions in a day and a half
Edited by T-Bone The editor swallowed the red pill and the blue pill simultaneously and then listened to Purple Haze
Awesome post T-Bone...couldn't have said it any better.
Mike. I read your post, noted your insults, noted the extremely twisted logic and also noted Twinky's very appropriate point that we are not at all discussing the subject...etc.
Your own words convict your delusion. I have nothing more to say except enjoy your ditch.
It is extremely obvious most here only read my posts to gather ammunition to play "Gotcha" at me. There is almost zero connection I am making in this communication.
I haven't had time to skim read the above 5 or so posts, but maybe later I will be able to do that. In skimming I could quickly see another set of Gotcha disconnects.
One of the items that is missing in most of your minds is one that I have recently mentioned a few times. This is the "Light Began to Dawn" tape that circulated in the mid 1980s.
If you haven't read ALL of this yet you missed a huge chunk of the story.
I think I posted this a total of 3 times in past years.
Late Edit - It is amazing how many times over the years I have cited passages from this tape. This explains so much!
I think many here avoid reading this because it undermines the central focus here, which is sin. This is too loaded with answers, and it seems to repel people who want to dwell on sin and play Gotcha all the time. I wonder if many here are even able to read this whole transcript. I can see from this week's posting to me here that most here are completely lacking the detail that this transcript provides.
PLEASE READ IT so we can have a conversation that doesn't resemble a Marx Brothers movie. Not knowing this tape's transcript pretty much guarantees an inability to understand what I am saying.
And here we are again, back in the sidings of despair, way off track, not discussing at all the original subject.
I think it is important, when a topic is being aired, that tangents be tolerated if they are started to correct a major error or fill in a gaping hole.
If the topic is ALL THAT IMPORTANT, the thread will be here after the tangents are done.
I am done, essentially, but then OTHERS here (see it's not just my fault) have to jump on and dissect every point I make.
I made my justifiable minor tangential remarks, and they generate MUCH INTEREST that is directed away from the initial topic.
Returning to the original topic will be easy if it is important and if there are still many points to make that are straight on-topic. Personally, I thought the thread had pretty much run its course when I stepped in heavily a few days ago.
You have the nerve to pretend you're surprised when others call you on stuff when you post error.
People are supposed to believe you somehow are the only one here who's playing by God's Rules - and the rest of us are not- when you don't even play by forum rules no matter how universal they are.
You had a new topic. Rather than post a new topic, you chose to derail an existing topic, and we all know you did it on purpose. After 20 years, you know better- or have worked hard NOT to know better, which says a whole other message.
One of the saddest things I experienced running these PFAL classes for people was the grads who served. They were kind of a running dialogue going along with the quirks of the class. They had all sat through it many times to the point of having it all memorized. Then they would interject pre scripted comments in places. It was so bizarre.
What it reminded me of was this group in college that used to go to Rocky Horror Picture Show and dress up and counter dialogue and wear rain gear and throw water on each other:
Peoples behavior patterns fascinate me.
i remember how we had to laugh at the jokes. Jokes we'd heard over and over and weren't that funny to begin with.
Item #1
The truths Leonard taught belonged to God, from Whom he got some good revelations. He also had error. VPW's job was to collect these revelations God had given to Leonard and to many others and "put it all together."
There were items in VPW's teachings that were not in Leonard's teachings.
There were items in Leonard's teachings that were NOT in VPW's teachings.
He filtered out Leonard's errors for us. That is the actual history. VPW righteously collected what God told him to collect and teach. I totally reject the ideas you folks nurture here on copyrights and originality and ownership. None of that market stuff or academic stuff belongs in God's family. God gives revelation and He owns it.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Item #2
PFAL '77 was originally planned to be the upgraded foundational class. As part of VPW's preparation for teaching PFAL'77 he started auditing the old 1968 film class, FOR THE FIRST TIME two weeks before the class was to begin. In 1968, all he had time for was watching the first half hour, and then he took that trip to meet San Francisco hippies.
Ten years later he finally sees the whole 1968 class. Four days before the start of PFAL'77 he came to the BRC lunchroom. I was there. He said that God had told him that the whole idea to replace the '68 class was not from God and not wise. VPW also said he could never keep up with the pace of that class, and that God had given him some special revelations that should stay in circulation with that original class.
This was on a Wednesday, best I can remember. On that week's SNS tape he mentions some of the things that he said in the BRC basement a few days before. Then PFAL'77 started the next day.
The plan to have PFAL'77 replace the original film class was aborted 4 days before PFAL'77 started. I was there and I have witnesses. There were over a hundred people there when he made this announcement of a change in plans. I posted all this data (and much more) in "A PFAL'77 Story" here 15 years ago. I think I may have posted it twice. One was in the thread "Masters of the Word" which had to be deleted during the "Bandwidth Crisis" some time ago. But it may be in another thread here still. I am not good with search engines.
LATE EDIT :
I just found the larger "PFAL'77 Story" here:
It’s frustrating and disappointing trying to debate with someone that claims two contradictory ideas are compatible – for example: the Bible says don’t steal and lie but it’s okay for wierwille to plagiarize (steal and lie). And when you point out the ideas are opposites, they act like the victim and say I’m playing gotcha.
~ ~ ~ ~
I guess some folks think listening to the same lies over and over again one might tend to believe they are true? Well…does seem to work for some big wierwille fans… and honestly in a way, I can relate to that – I listened to wierwille’s lies for 12 years – until some jarring experiences slapped me in the face and brought me out of a psychological stupor.
wierwille’s lies and theatrics were to rope people into his delusions of grandeur. wierwille’s dramatic performances have little to do with Christ or anything of noble substance – it’s more about appealing to one’s search for answers and meaning – it’s about baiting the hook. The ideology of wierwille has little substance but a whole lot of hype about having substance.
It’s frustrating and disappointing trying to debate with someone that claims two contradictory ideas are compatible – for example: the Bible says don’t steal and lie but it’s okay for wierwille to plagiarize (steal and lie). And when you point out the ideas are opposites, they act like the victim and say I’m playing gotcha.
~ ~ ~ ~
And turn around and say that we don't understand what he is talking about. Like we can't hear his words or something....probably thinks were all devil posessed and cant understand "spiritual matters"...lol
YET.... wierwille didn't believe it [this *Christ-in-you* scriptural truth that he, vpw, gave extensive theatrics to drive home its significance]. Else he would have structured his ministry on Christian truths, not lockstep obedience. Individuals within this ministry would have flourished with personal sovereignty, boundaries, dignity, integrity......rather than denigrated, ,manipulated and exploited.
This histrionic performance was a "hook" that snagged youth into his boat. His theatrics were classic "bait and switch" in every sense of that concept.
################
From 1976-1982, I do not remember ANY TEACHING BY WIERWILLE where he drilled down on this "Christ-in-you" truth and made it the centerpiece of his teaching. To me, it was one of those pfal-hallmark *truths* that I could see clearly from the scriptures. From this launching pad of truth.....EACH INDIVIDUAL IS FULLY UNIQUE AND A MEMBER IN PARTICULAR.
Thus, the corps-clone factory in Emporia made NO sense to me. Sure, some basic discipline training..... but not the harsh treatment of individuals. Does God want a campus of clones? Heck, the Old Testament is rich in detail of strengths and weaknesses of men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, etc. And, after Pentecost.... the scriptures don't show us men and women who walked out of a clone factory.
We were railroaded by a charlatan, folks. Wierwille NEVER submitted to a program where he was someone else's servant. Even more so, rules be damned as wierwille eloped with Dotsie to Kentucky.... when they both clearly knew of the rule that pre-seminary students were NOT PERMITTED to get married before completing their seminary training [p. 28 BATS].
When wierwille came to the campus.....why was he singling out corps and dishing out such harsh public criticism? Why was he flaunting his smoking at lunchtime and forbade any one else to pull out their smokes? He was a striker. This intimidation and combative environment fed into his malignant narcissism. Wierwille used the vehicle of a "ministry" to gain access and control over others. Period.
Else he would have structured his ministry on Christian truths, not lockstep obedience. Individuals within this ministry would have flourished with personal sovereignty, boundaries, dignity, integrity......rather than denigrated, ,manipulated and exploited.
6 hours ago, skyrider said:
This histrionic performance was a "hook" that snagged youth into his boat. His theatrics were classic "bait and switch" in every sense of that concept.
I still believe it's legitimate and fair to characterize Wierwille's schtick as hypnotism. Some bought the suggestions, some didn't. Those who saw through it, didn't stick.
Quote
This intimidation and combative environment fed into his malignant narcissism. Wierwille used the vehicle of a "ministry" to gain access and control over others. Period.
The biggest topics of histrionic exploit from PFAL that I remember are the woman whose kid got run over and the Christ in you the hope of glow ray. Oh yes and the fictional account of the man with the withered hand.
To break them down
1. From his Law of Believing - changed around from contemporary Norman Vincent Peales bestseller the power of positive thinking. Lift and tuck and add histrionics and voila part of PFAL but complete with gestapo like victim blaming that has carried forward since as a ministry legacy.
2. Christ appendage behind your appendage - this convoluted replacement theory is even weirder than Catholics crackers turning to meat instantly and is intricately intertwined into his rationalization of adultery healing broken women because of the power of his peepee.
3. Withered Hand - if Jesus did it VP needs to copy him. Like a stage play. I mean with the records, a guy drifting off into the sunset on a train, and the rest of the proven illogic in the story this is a screen play in VPs mind. He was good at those.
Lie,steal, twist scripture, add histrionics.
Voila you have PFAL.
And a sex problem but we can’t talk about that lol.
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WordWolf
vpw's bait-and-switch was sometimes used right in pfal, but other times it was not. If 100% of all you knew about vpw came straight from pfal tapes/films and the books of that class, you'd be sur
OldSkool
The way international is built on victor paul wierwille, not Jesus Christ. Sure, they mention his name at the end of a prayer and they love to talk about his accomplished works, but otherwise they hav
OldSkool
Excellent responese T-Bone. Mike - so you are saying it's ok for people to steal because everything belongs to God. That logic could hold true over anything then if it were to hold true over inte
Rocky
Bless his heart, Mike is nothing if not persistent in his Quixotic endeavor to rationalize what he believes is the NON error of Wierwille's ways and teaching.
My "first thought" when reading his latest post had something to do with an essay Princeton (University, not divinity school) Philosophy Prof (emeritus) Harry Frankfurt once wrote on the massive proliferation of BS in modern life. But I'm thankful for those who rebutted Mike's malarkey.
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OldSkool
MAybe I'm going out on a limb of common sense here, but why didn't God just give the error free revelation to wierwille in the first place? Why would he need wierwille to collect all these materials and make them error free.
Another question: If wierwille made them error free then why has the way international been revising and editing his materials for 37 years now specifically to remove errors and make his materials agree with each other? My former wife was very involved in that process as one of the lead copy editors and I know dang good and well wierwille's works were full of errors and I'm not talking punctuation here. Im talking doctrinal content that had to be queried from way publications to presidents publications to the then research department coordinator D@vid Ch@vousti3. What would all of that be necessary if wierwille made anything error free?
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OldSkool
Excellent responese T-Bone.
Mike - so you are saying it's ok for people to steal because everything belongs to God. That logic could hold true over anything then if it were to hold true over intellectual property. Why not go steal your neighbor's chainsaw? I mean God created all the raw material to make it. But lemme ask you this - The way international holds the copyrights for VPW's stolen materials including, but not limited to, PFAL - classes and books. Why do they so aggressively defend their copyrights in court if none of it matters? And to be clear, I'm don't even care about copyright matters in this case. Im concerened with the complete lack of godly ethics from the supposed man of God. Stealing is stealing and God condemns it whenever and wherever it occurs. Just because wierwille stole intellectual works it's still stealing. But you wierwille fan boys have to move heaven and earth aside to rationalize the lies your idol told of himself. My advice, toss Wierwille out the picture and dedicate your life to following Christ and his teachings.
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Mike
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T-Bone
There is so much nonsense to sift through here – truly a daunting task - but I’m up for taking a stab at isolating some of the bull$hit…this is a target rich environment so there’ll be plenty of fair game for other Grease Spotters.
Mike: People like Kenyon and Leonard were men of God, dedicated to God's people. God gave them (and many others) some revelations SO THAT they could bless His people with them. God wanted us blessed so He told VPW what to collect from them for us.
T-Bone: Hold onto your seat, Mike.
I would like to offer you the red pill which represents truth, and the way things work in the real world: human beings have cognitive abilities which is something that healthy human beings are born with or develop as they grow. Cognitive abilities are mental skills used in the process of acquiring knowledge, the manipulation of information, reasoning, and problem-solving. They have more to do with the mechanisms of how people learn rather than with actual knowledge.
Mike, as best as I can gather from all your years of posting on Grease Spot Café is that it seems to me you have adopted wierwille’s lazy and plagiarizing mindset – apparently YOU DOUBT that people are capable of thinking, problem-solving and creating / inventing. wierwille frequently disparaged cognitive skills – exemplified best in a Sunday Night Teaching tape “Carnal Versus Spiritual” on which he said some fascinating goofball statements without any pertinent Scripture references to support his claims. The following are a few of his preposterous claims on the tape:
1. Psychologists talk about the subconscious…they’ve never been there…it’s actually the mind of the spirit.
2. All learning comes by way of the five senses…When you’re born again you now have another avenue of learning – the spirit.
3. It’s Christ behind every cell of your being…even behind your brain cells.
4. All the great discoveries and inventions come by way of the spirit – revelation.
5. It’s not because you have such a high IQ – it’s because God has such a high IQ.
6. Countries without Christ do not invent.
Apparently wierwille had a very low opinion of a human being’s cognitive skills…If I had to guess why he felt that way – I’d say it’s probably because he was lazy and incompetent – I mean, why else would he plagiarize so much? To be honest, I have a very low opinion of wierwille’s cognitive skills.
Of course, you do have the option to take the blue pill representing a return to the blissful delusion of wierwille’s ideology.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: God was the owner of these revelations, and He didn't have to ask Leonard for earthly, legal copyright permission to tell VPW to get the goods for more of God's people to be blessed. God cares little for the market or the academia ouch from this, which is infinitesimally small for the market and zero for academia.
T-Bone: *** broken record alert *** you used this unscrupulous argument in a previous post…and so the *** fight broken records with broken records countermeasures *** has been activated… flooding tube 4 …tube 4 flooded… …opening outer door…outer door open…fire tube 4:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Isaiah 5:20 …and another thing – what proof does anyone have of God telling wierwille what to collect and teach? Other than wierwille claiming that! Were there others who witnessed this “historic” and phenomenal event?
A just balance and scales belong to the LORD; All the weights of the bag are His concern. Proverbs 16:11 NASB . The LORD demands accurate scales and balances; he sets the standards for fairness. Proverbs 16:11 NLT . Maybe it’s just me – but I didn’t think it was possible that someone could have such devoted loyalty to a plagiarizing pseudo-Christian cult-leader like wierwille that they would wholeheartedly come to his defense even though it means flat out contradicting God’s demands for ACCURACY and HONESTY in the marketplace or even in any personal business.
furthermore, another error in your argument that I need to point out – if someone gives me a gift – then they don’t own it – I do!
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: …You are not the one to judge that this is stealing, nor is any court. I suppose you would object to Jacob stealing Esau's birthright? It was against the law for Tyndale to translate the Bible into English, but he did it, and paid for it with his life. SUCH a lawbreaker~!!!
God is not a blind, mechanical, human judge like you want him to be. He knew Esau did not value the birthright and Jacob did. He knows that we needed what He had BG Leonard bang out the first draft for.
T-Bone: You might want to review this gobbledygook argument – and try to give a clear and simple reason why you have set YOURSELF up as the absolute authority over and above any courts, the rule of law, the ethical demands of the Bible, and even the sense of ownership and responsibility that is common to all humans…Just wondering. Who put you in charge? What are your qualifications? Got any references?
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: …I have privately let leaders there know that I have bootleg copies of the class. They can figure it out from all the passages I have posted here, plus I even called Howard Allen in 1988 to let him know what was going on. Me and many others were busy making copies of things to serve as backups and insurance against any more TWI crashes like the 1986 crash. I was ready to go to jail for it. We had dedicated our lives to God's class and no TWI was going to take it away from us.
T-Bone: Ah ha! You’ve been taking the blue pill for quite a while I see. Well that explains it.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: Again, you demonstrate a complete disconnect with the points I make.
It had NOTHING to do with it being intellectual work.
It has EVERYTHING to do with Who the Author was of those revelations.
Why are you unable to understand what I write?
Try making flash card:
"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deut 29:29
T-Bone: okay, we’re back to repeating oldies but goodies…
*** broken record alert *** this is not a drill *** *** fight broken records with broken records countermeasures has been reactivated *** répétez s’il vous plait (we must be on a French sub – the underwater warship - NOT the sandwich…interprets itself right in the verse
) reload tube 4 with flash card warheads… …tube 4 reloaded with flash card warheads… flooding tube 4… …tube 4 flooded…opening outer door…outer door open…fire tube 4:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Isaiah 5:20 …and another thing – what proof does anyone have of God telling wierwille what to collect and teach? Other than wierwille claiming that! Were there others who witnessed this “historic” and phenomenal event?
A just balance and scales belong to the LORD; All the weights of the bag are His concern. Proverbs 16:11 NASB . The LORD demands accurate scales and balances; he sets the standards for fairness. Proverbs 16:11 NLT . Maybe it’s just me – but I didn’t think it was possible that someone could have such devoted loyalty to a plagiarizing pseudo-Christian cult-leader like wierwille that they would wholeheartedly come to his defense even though it means flat out contradicting God’s demands for ACCURACY and HONESTY in the marketplace or even in any personal business.
furthermore, another error in your argument that I need to point out – if someone gives me a gift – then they don’t own it – I do!
~ ~ ~ ~
Coming soon to a Betamax Home
FellowshipTheater near you:The Hunt for Copies of the PFAL Class
And be on the lookout for the WW2 (wierwille’s wonky 2
) classic Das Bootleg
Imagine reliving the thrill of stretched coffee
Endure the cramped sleeping arrangements of metal folding chairs
Experience surround sound: the class participating in a snooze fest zzzzZZZZ
ZZzzz
Enjoy the freedom to binge watch all 12 sessions in a day and a half
Edited by T-BoneThe editor swallowed the red pill and the blue pill simultaneously and then listened to Purple Haze
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Twinky
And here we are again, back in the sidings of despair, way off track, not discussing at all the original subject.
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OldSkool
Awesome post T-Bone...couldn't have said it any better.
Mike. I read your post, noted your insults, noted the extremely twisted logic and also noted Twinky's very appropriate point that we are not at all discussing the subject...etc.
Your own words convict your delusion. I have nothing more to say except enjoy your ditch.
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Mike
It is extremely obvious most here only read my posts to gather ammunition to play "Gotcha" at me. There is almost zero connection I am making in this communication.
I haven't had time to skim read the above 5 or so posts, but maybe later I will be able to do that. In skimming I could quickly see another set of Gotcha disconnects.
One of the items that is missing in most of your minds is one that I have recently mentioned a few times. This is the "Light Began to Dawn" tape that circulated in the mid 1980s.
If you haven't read ALL of this yet you missed a huge chunk of the story.
It is posted here:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24553-the-wierwille-legacy-who-will-write-the-book/page/10/#comment-587331
I think I posted this a total of 3 times in past years.
Late Edit - It is amazing how many times over the years I have cited passages from this tape. This explains so much!
I think many here avoid reading this because it undermines the central focus here, which is sin. This is too loaded with answers, and it seems to repel people who want to dwell on sin and play Gotcha all the time. I wonder if many here are even able to read this whole transcript. I can see from this week's posting to me here that most here are completely lacking the detail that this transcript provides.
PLEASE READ IT so we can have a conversation that doesn't resemble a Marx Brothers movie. Not knowing this tape's transcript pretty much guarantees an inability to understand what I am saying.
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Mike
I think it is important, when a topic is being aired, that tangents be tolerated if they are started to correct a major error or fill in a gaping hole.
Edited by MikeIf the topic is ALL THAT IMPORTANT, the thread will be here after the tangents are done.
I am done, essentially, but then OTHERS here (see it's not just my fault) have to jump on and dissect every point I make.
I made my justifiable minor tangential remarks, and they generate MUCH INTEREST that is directed away from the initial topic.
Returning to the original topic will be easy if it is important and if there are still many points to make that are straight on-topic. Personally, I thought the thread had pretty much run its course when I stepped in heavily a few days ago.
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WordWolf
You have the nerve to pretend you're surprised when others call you on stuff when you post error.
People are supposed to believe you somehow are the only one here who's playing by God's Rules - and the rest of us are not- when you don't even play by forum rules no matter how universal they are.
You had a new topic. Rather than post a new topic, you chose to derail an existing topic, and we all know you did it on purpose. After 20 years, you know better- or have worked hard NOT to know better, which says a whole other message.
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Rocky
Even after starting a new thread/topic was pointed out and suggested to Mike.
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outandabout
i remember how we had to laugh at the jokes. Jokes we'd heard over and over and weren't that funny to begin with.
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chockfull
Item #1
These ongoing logic errors show mikes mind what he wants to see.
God gave revelation to an individual by the stupid definition the Way teaches. Not a group like OT times.
What is remarkable is the similarity of logic in
“All revelation given by God belongs to VP” and “all women in the kingdom belong to the king”.
But the logic does explain facts in existence like why does American Christian Press exist? To control the message going out.
But honestly the more distance I get from it the more similar the 1942 promise and Joseph Smith angel Moroni encounter look.
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T-Bone
It’s frustrating and disappointing trying to debate with someone that claims two contradictory ideas are compatible – for example: the Bible says don’t steal and lie but it’s okay for wierwille to plagiarize (steal and lie). And when you point out the ideas are opposites, they act like the victim and say I’m playing gotcha.
~ ~ ~ ~
I guess some folks think listening to the same lies over and over again one might tend to believe they are true? Well…does seem to work for some big wierwille fans… and honestly in a way, I can relate to that – I listened to wierwille’s lies for 12 years – until some jarring experiences slapped me in the face and brought me out of a psychological stupor.
wierwille’s lies and theatrics were to rope people into his delusions of grandeur. wierwille’s dramatic performances have little to do with Christ or anything of noble substance – it’s more about appealing to one’s search for answers and meaning – it’s about baiting the hook. The ideology of wierwille has little substance but a whole lot of hype about having substance.
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OldSkool
And turn around and say that we don't understand what he is talking about. Like we can't hear his words or something....probably thinks were all devil posessed and cant understand "spiritual matters"...lol
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skyrider
BACK TO TOPIC ......
################
YET.... wierwille didn't believe it [this *Christ-in-you* scriptural truth that he, vpw, gave extensive theatrics to drive home its significance]. Else he would have structured his ministry on Christian truths, not lockstep obedience. Individuals within this ministry would have flourished with personal sovereignty, boundaries, dignity, integrity......rather than denigrated, ,manipulated and exploited.
This histrionic performance was a "hook" that snagged youth into his boat. His theatrics were classic "bait and switch" in every sense of that concept.
################
From 1976-1982, I do not remember ANY TEACHING BY WIERWILLE where he drilled down on this "Christ-in-you" truth and made it the centerpiece of his teaching. To me, it was one of those pfal-hallmark *truths* that I could see clearly from the scriptures. From this launching pad of truth.....EACH INDIVIDUAL IS FULLY UNIQUE AND A MEMBER IN PARTICULAR.
Thus, the corps-clone factory in Emporia made NO sense to me. Sure, some basic discipline training..... but not the harsh treatment of individuals. Does God want a campus of clones? Heck, the Old Testament is rich in detail of strengths and weaknesses of men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, etc. And, after Pentecost.... the scriptures don't show us men and women who walked out of a clone factory.
We were railroaded by a charlatan, folks. Wierwille NEVER submitted to a program where he was someone else's servant. Even more so, rules be damned as wierwille eloped with Dotsie to Kentucky.... when they both clearly knew of the rule that pre-seminary students were NOT PERMITTED to get married before completing their seminary training [p. 28 BATS].
When wierwille came to the campus.....why was he singling out corps and dishing out such harsh public criticism? Why was he flaunting his smoking at lunchtime and forbade any one else to pull out their smokes? He was a striker. This intimidation and combative environment fed into his malignant narcissism. Wierwille used the vehicle of a "ministry" to gain access and control over others. Period.
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Rocky
I still believe it's legitimate and fair to characterize Wierwille's schtick as hypnotism. Some bought the suggestions, some didn't. Those who saw through it, didn't stick.
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chockfull
The biggest topics of histrionic exploit from PFAL that I remember are the woman whose kid got run over and the Christ in you the hope of glow ray. Oh yes and the fictional account of the man with the withered hand.
To break them down
1. From his Law of Believing - changed around from contemporary Norman Vincent Peales bestseller the power of positive thinking. Lift and tuck and add histrionics and voila part of PFAL but complete with gestapo like victim blaming that has carried forward since as a ministry legacy.
2. Christ appendage behind your appendage - this convoluted replacement theory is even weirder than Catholics crackers turning to meat instantly and is intricately intertwined into his rationalization of adultery healing broken women because of the power of his peepee.
3. Withered Hand - if Jesus did it VP needs to copy him. Like a stage play. I mean with the records, a guy drifting off into the sunset on a train, and the rest of the proven illogic in the story this is a screen play in VPs mind. He was good at those.
Lie,steal, twist scripture, add histrionics.
Voila you have PFAL.
And a sex problem but we can’t talk about that lol.
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