Stand for the entrance of a head of state, or the entrance of a Bible teacher.

[T-Bone]

2 hours ago, waysider said:

"Father shows me a white heart if they have holy spirit and a black heart if they have the seed of the serpent."

 

But you know…looking back…some folks who have crossed my path…even now I’m not sure if they had a white heart or a black heart…maybe they were heartless…but…no sense in dwelling on the past…it’s weird though…some of the most callous people I have ever met were in TWI…good thing I left when I did…given enough time - the TWI-mindset can do a number on your capacity to sympathize and be compassionate…it tends to petrify humanity…you become stony-hearted.

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, waysider said:

( I swear, you can't make this stuff up.)

As if Victor didn't make it up?

[Rocky]

6 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

But you know…looking back…some folks who have crossed my path…even now I’m not sure if they had a white heart or a black heart…maybe they were heartless…but…no sense in dwelling on the past…it’s weird though…some of the most callous people I have ever met were in TWI…good thing I left when I did…given enough time - the TWI-mindset can do a number on your capacity to sympathize and be compassionate…it tends to petrify humanity…you become stony-hearted.

Well... funny you should say those things my dear friend T-Bone.

This excerpt from Jessica Nordell's conclusion to her book, The End of Bias, in which she writes:

Quote

 

This book focuses on the harm done to those on the receiving end of bias, harm that is physical, material, economic, psychological, and spiritual. It pays little attention to the material benefits and other resources that accrue as a result to those who experience the flip side of bias: unearned advantage. It deals even less with the harms hidden inside those advantages. But the ticket, as Baldwin wrote, has a price, and oppression—whether flagrant human rights violations or everyday bias and discrimination—also damages the perpetrator. This is in no way to suggest equivalence between the experiences of society's marginalized people and those who are advantaged: there is no comparison. I only want to say that in blindly perpetrating bias, something is lost for the perpetrator as well, and until the most advantaged take seriously the ways they are also harmed, any understanding will be partial, and action may be misguided by a sense of “altruism” rather than rooted in the reality of human interdependence. Half understanding, they may succumb to the same kind of saviorism that has underpinned so much justice work.

What is lost? Acts of bias erode trust, the foundation of authentic relationships, promoting alienation and separation. There are also what have been described as “the ordinary vices of domination,” which philosophy Samantha Vice lists as “indifference or callousness, cowardice or dishonesty, the failure of imagination and empathy, or just plain laziness. There is, in the privileged mind, ongoing delusion—habitual, unexamined distortions about who one is, where one comes from, who does or does not deserve safety, comfort, opportunity, and care. [This is also addressed in The Power Paradox by Keltner Dacher, which I have mentioned in other threads]

There may even be what has been come to be called “moral injury,” what philosopher Nancy Sherman describes as the inner conflict that derives from having committed moral transgressions that overwhelm one's sense of humanity.

 

 I can say with deep humility that the failure of my marriage and difficulties in my relationship with my daughter and stepson (and probably many more relationships) stem from moral injury derived from moral transgressions that overwhelmed my sense of humanity. I have no need to confront any reader here about whether s/he can recognize anything in themselves that resembles this emotional reality...

But ALL of it for me traces back to what I believe is and was evil about how Victor and Loy viewed themselves as superior to any and everyone else... and that I allowed to be imprinted on my soul. That's also why I have been on a quest for understanding and wisdom about these matters for more than 30 years now, since I first personally encountered emotional and relationship problems deriving from what was taught and modeled in twi. My first recollection of unearned feelings of superiority goes back to one ROA making plans with three other young guys to share a house in Phoenix right after my year as a WOW in Ohio. 

Wierwille so instilled in us a feeling of superiority because we were the "called out" of the "household of God." What horse$hit that attitude brought. I was twentysomething at the time and had SOOOO much to learn about the genuine love of God which embraces each individual as worthy. Anyway...

[Nathan_Jr]

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Well... funny you should say those things my dear friend T-Bone.

This excerpt from Jessica Nordell's conclusion to her book, The End of Bias, in which she writes:

 I can say with deep humility that the failure of my marriage and difficulties in my relationship with my daughter and stepson (and probably many more relationships) stem from moral injury derived from moral transgressions that overwhelmed my sense of humanity. I have no need to confront any reader here about whether s/he can recognize anything in themselves that resembles this emotional reality...

But ALL of it for me traces back to what I believe is and was evil about how Victor and Loy viewed themselves as superior to any and everyone else... and that I allowed to be imprinted on my soul. That's also why I have been on a quest for understanding and wisdom about these matters for more than 30 years now, since I first personally encountered emotional and relationship problems deriving from what was taught and modeled in twi. My first recollection of unearned feelings of superiority goes back to one ROA making plans with three other young guys to share a house in Phoenix right after my year as a WOW in Ohio. 

Wierwille so instilled in us a feeling of superiority because we were the "called out" of the "household of God." What horse$hit that attitude brought. I was twentysomething at the time and had SOOOO much to learn about the genuine love of God which embraces each individual as worthy. Anyway...

As often as I laugh at the absurd piles of bullsh¡t revealed here, I find myself weeping with fists clenched in righteousness indignation and sorrow. With childish fantasies of revenge, I look around for victor and Loy to extract penance. But I can never find them, because they have been placed behind all of you at your feet -- this is where they have been commanded to go.

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Nathan_Jr

[T-Bone]

12 hours ago, Rocky said:

 I can say with deep humility that the failure of my marriage and difficulties in my relationship with my daughter and stepson (and probably many more relationships) stem from moral injury derived from moral transgressions that overwhelmed my sense of humanity. I have no need to confront any reader here about whether s/he can recognize anything in themselves that resembles this emotional reality...

But ALL of it for me traces back to what I believe is and was evil about how Victor and Loy viewed themselves as superior to any and everyone else... and that I allowed to be imprinted on my soul. That's also why I have been on a quest for understanding and wisdom about these matters for more than 30 years now, since I first personally encountered emotional and relationship problems deriving from what was taught and modeled in twi. My first recollection of unearned feelings of superiority goes back to one ROA making plans with three other young guys to share a house in Phoenix right after my year as a WOW in Ohio. 

Wierwille so instilled in us a feeling of superiority because we were the "called out" of the "household of God." What horse$hit that attitude brought. I was twentysomething at the time and had SOOOO much to learn about the genuine love of God which embraces each individual as worthy. Anyway...

Rocky, to make yourself vulnerable like that says a lot about an inner strength you must now have…I’ve read that when a broken bone is set properly, it will tend to heal so thoroughly it will become stronger than it was before the fracture. You, like so many other Grease Spotters have a powerful secret weapon that the enemy (a harmful and controlling cult) usually doesn’t see coming and doesn’t know how to counter it. it’s a triple “threat” of honesty, humility, and love.  

When we love, it is a big risk. We open ourselves up to potential harm – the other person could take advantage of that…and in a worst-case scenario they could break our heart.

I can relate to a lot of the things you said as I reflect on how I treated my family during my 12 years of TWI involvement. By nature, I am a workaholic anyway. when that’s combined with having any kind of leadership role in TWI (which was for most of that 12 years) I had very little energy and time leftover for my family. I subscribed to TWI’s familial-wrecking-machination   Put God, The Word, The Ministry first and everything else will take care of itself.

It’s taken me some 36 years to reprioritize stuff in my life that has to do with family, friends, and goals – I’m still working on it. But at least I’ve got a bead on what’s truly important.

[Rejoice]

16 hours ago, OldSkool said:

We were pests.

OldSkool...

[chockfull]

21 hours ago, OldSkool said:

 

Respondind to both posts but not in turn.
 

way international leadership still behaves the exact same way. They say it's out of respect for the word that an individual teaches and that's why they stand. Bottom line is way international leadership - particularly the way corps want to be served and they demand it. The higher up the foodchain you get the more protocol is demanded from followers. Now, with HQ they have streamlined some of the standing...at the noon meal for example --- staff don't have to stand up when eating everytime someone comes to the lectern. The head table...geez....what a fiasco. The headtable servers have their own little doctrines they use to do special favors for the directors. Of course they say it's to bless the directors for all they do for us...or some such drivel. I had to sit at the head table for an entire week everytime I emceed the noon meal when I was cabinet. It's one of the stuffiest, fake environments I have ever been a part of. And it was nothing to get a call from Rosalie reproving me for the slightest offence. Chockfull really hits the nail on the head calling them pharisees. They do prefer the cheif seats and special adoration. They are not servants but are there to be served.

As late as 1999, my candidate year for the way corps, I was given military books to read. Books on Chesty Puller, et. al. They weren't required reading but suggested to me by local leadership so I could get a grasp on the pretend military lifestyle of active way corps....and a suggestion is paramount to a command. I was taught that very early on in my short way corps career. Bottom line (from my personal experience) is the way international has a caste system and the further up the ladder you are able to climb the more you can demand to be served and salaamed by followers. The way corps are some of the most egotistical people I have ever met. I was egotistical as all get out when I was way corps too. That's something that was taught by example in my training and a very undesireable character trait I have had to work to overcome. 

Wow.  I have a friend who studies formal Japanese tea ceremonies.  They are intricate, complicated, and hard to master.  I’ve seen some of his extended sets and they are impressive.

I am sure his life dream is to perfect his abilities so that he can serve in the most important capacity like pouring for dignitaries like the BOD.

in the real world tho he kills it at kids parties.  Started for his daughter and shares his skills.

[Nathan_Jr]

On 9/1/2022 at 4:38 PM, OldSkool said:

They say it's out of respect for the word that an individual teaches and that's why they stand.

Is that what they say? It must be, because it sounds like so many other bullsh¡t assertions of opinion with twisted implications of axiomatic truth. WTAF!

A subject is taught because the teacher respects it? That's the impetus for teaching? Respect for a manufactured opinion is why one teaches it? And they stand to respect the respectful??? Huh?

It beaks my heart that people will just beleeeve anything.

For example, I am a skilled cook. I respect the science and lore and craft of cookery. But I don't teach it because I respect it. If I'm asked to teach it, I would likely out of respect for the student, for that relationship, but ONLY if I felt apt to teach, which means skilled to teach. And being a skilled cook doesn't make me a skilled teacher of cooking.

Just because a corporation is filled with robots who fetishize teaching, doesn't mean that any at all are apt to teach. Just because someone fetishizes a religious opinion, doesn't mean they have the skills to teach it.

Wanting to teach is not a sufficient reason to teach.

The best teachers are committed to being the best students - always learning.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
I can't do it, so I teach it... lo shonta halamakala

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

The best teachers are committed to being the best students - always learning.

[WordWolf]

4 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Is that what they say? It must be, because it sounds like so many other bullsh¡t assertions of opinion with twisted implications of axiomatic truth. WTAF!

A subject is taught because the teacher respects it? That's the impetus for teaching? Respect for a manufactured opinion is why one teaches it? And they stand to respect the respectful??? Huh?

It beaks my heart that people will just beleeeve anything.

For example, I am a skilled cook. I respect the science and lore and craft of cookery. But I don't teach it because I respect it. If I'm asked to teach it, I would likely out of respect for the student, for that relationship, but ONLY if I felt apt to teach, which means skilled to teach. And being a skilled cook doesn't make me a skilled teacher of cooking.

Just because a corporation is filled with robots who fetishize teaching, doesn't mean that any at all are apt to teach. Just because someone fetishizes a religious opinion, doesn't mean they have the skills to teach it.

Wanting to teach is not a sufficient reason to teach.

The best teachers are committed to being the best students - always learning.

I remember reading someone addressing this.  "There are masters of a thing, and there are Masters of a thing."  Even if one is highly skilled at something, there is no guarantee that person is any good at teaching others that same skill.  They used the example of Bruce Lee-  expert martial artist,  champion in tournaments, designed his own effective style from the ground up-  but not very good at TEACHING all of that.  Jeet Kune Do was learned, and is still taught, but not because he was great at teaching.

 

But, yes, all the fuss about teaching the Bible is not a guarantee anyone at twi is any good at teaching it. For that matter, all the fuss about teaching the Bible is no guarantee anyone at twi is any good at studying or researching the Bible.  Oh, they're confident in their own abilities, and confident that outsiders are incompetent, but reality is under no constraint to humor their delusions about either.   There's plenty of talented Christians who are never-been-way. 

[chockfull]

You know the sad part about it is the eternal rewards part.

if I can read the Bible clearly, they basically are not going to receive eternal rewards for their efforts because their hypocrisy and abuse of others garnered them the only reward they are going to get on earth - forced compliance.

it’s called the dictators reward system.

[WordWolf]

King James Bible
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
 

====================================

That reminds me.

When vpw taught on this very verse, he made an amazingly obvious mistake.  He read that out loud. Then he said that they had no reward.

Uh, reading may be fundamental, but comprehension is essential!

Didn't he understand all the words he just read?

The hypocrites made a public display of their religious giving.  Why?  "THAT THEY MAY HAVE GLORY OF MEN."  So, people could applaud them and say what generous people they are.  THAT is their reward.  For all the good it does them.  And they accept that and do it FOR that reward. 

But vpw said they had NO reward.  Now, they may not have had any reward FROM GOD, but they had A reward, and it was one of their own choosing. 

IIRC, that was right in pfal.  I tried not to dwell on it, but every single time that was played, that bothered me. It was an incredibly obvious mistake to make.  I mean, if I misspoke and said that, I'd turn around and immediately CORRECT MYSELF for misspeaking.   vpw just went on as if that made perfect sense.   Sometimes I think he just recited stuff by rote, as in "if it's on the teleprompter, he'll read it aloud no matter what it says."

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I tried not to dwell on it, but every single time that was played, that bothered me. It was an incredibly obvious mistake to make.  I mean, if I misspoke and said that, I'd turn around and immediately CORRECT MYSELF for misspeaking.   vpw just went on as if that made perfect sense.   Sometimes I think he just recited stuff by rote, as in "if it's on the teleprompter, he'll read it aloud no matter what it says."

From the very beginning of PFAL, I noticed these errors in logic or fact that he just steamrolled over, as if no one would notice - hoping no one would notice. During literally every segment of every session he made an erroneous assertion of fact or logic that jarred me, distracted me, bothered me. He repeated so many filler words and phrases in such a sing-song lullaby way, any uneducated or willfully ignorant mind would easily gloss over it. (Who would dispute self-referential authority on such esotericism?)

The same for literally every recorded "teaching," including two AC recordings.

If the bullsh¡t and error and pedagogical, brain-numbing cadence were scrubbed from PFAL, it would be less than five hours. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
Gloved hands

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

If the .... and error and pedagogical brain-numbing cadence were scrubbed from PFAL, it would be less than five hours. 

And if you scrub all the plagiarized stuff, it would be the perfect length for a TikTok and there’d be no concern over inappropriate content, psychological effects, censorship or    user... uhm...I mean student privacy

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by T-Bone
it took me longer to post this than it took to watch the revised PFAL Class TikTok edition

[Nathan_Jr]

13 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

And if you scrub all the plagiarized stuff, it would be the perfect length for a TikTok and there’d be no concern over inappropriate content, psychological effects, censorship or    user... uhm...I mean student privacy

 

I could and would stand for that!

[Rocky]

ALL of which simply, yet starkly, underscores the UN-Christian nature of the entire "ministry."

[T-Bone]

19 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I could and would stand for that!

Why don’t you make a TikTok of that…sort of a TikTok within a TikTok kind of a thing…you could start something…like take the PFAL TikTok Challenge – contestants have the PFAL TikTok playing in the background – have a stopwatch in the lower left of the screen – the contest is to find the person who stands at the beginning of the PFAL TikTok and then falls asleep the quickest… what? How do you know people aren’t going to fake it – you ask…Doesn’t matter – you know wierwille is faking it! And I guarandamntee it a lot of new students and grads faked staying awake in the ridiculously long and plagiarized full-blown PFAL class…bear with me on this brainstorming session…I get excited just thinking about the possibilities of a PFAL TikTo zzzzzzZZZZZZZ ZZZZZzzzzzzzzz

[Rocky]

39 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

the contest is to find the person who stands at the beginning of the PFAL TikTok and then falls asleep the quickest…

A contest to see who is the quickest to be hypnotized? (I'm not joking. Isn't that really what's going on?)
 

Hypnosis, also referred to as hypnotherapy or hypnotic suggestion, is a trance-like state in which you have heightened focus and concentration. Hypnosis is usually done with the help of a therapist using verbal repetition and mental images. When you're under hypnosis, you usually feel calm and relaxed, and are more open to suggestions.

 

Hypnosis can be used to help you (or someone else) gain control (or heightened influence) over undesired behaviors or to help you cope better with anxiety or pain. It's important to know that although you're more open to suggestion during hypnosis, you don't lose control over your behavior.

[Rocky]

A key to this is trust. I used to trust Wierwille.

[oldiesman]

On 8/30/2022 at 1:21 PM, WordWolf said:

Anyone know where this "stand when a Bible teacher enters the room" nonsense started?

Most people will stand for a head of state, and maybe a foreign dignitary.

Ever heard of a church or something where this is required- one that isn't ex-twi?

It may have started with the Catholic mass.    Everybody stands when the processional rolls in.

[Twinky]

On 9/2/2022 at 6:32 AM, Rocky said:

Wierwille so instilled in us a feeling of superiority because we were the "called out" of the "household of God." .

This actually is only half of the problem.  The other half is that feelings of inferiority were instilled in non-Corps folk, who were taught to look up to Corps as founts of all "spiritual" knowledge and understanding.  And that probably started right from the first PFAL class anyone took.  "Save your questions till the last session, and then ask."  By which time, you'd been browbeaten over many sessions by so many "helpers" to think that some other person had all the answers.

[WordWolf]

20 hours ago, oldiesman said:

It may have started with the Catholic mass.    Everybody stands when the processional rolls in.

So, you're saying that Mr "I hate Roman Catholicism so much that I ranted if my original congregation even had a Christmas tree in their house",  Mr "Let's Put an anti-Roman Catholic book in the twi bookstore"  turned around and copied the Roman Catholic Church to get people to stand when he entered the room?

[Twinky]

On 8/30/2022 at 6:21 PM, WordWolf said:

Anyone know where this "stand when a Bible teacher enters the room" nonsense started?

No idea where or when this started, but it used to confuse the heck out of me, and if I were in a room when a clergy member entered (even if it was just a quick check for something unrelated to why I was in the room), I'd stand up, all right, but to get up and get out of the vicinity real quick.

A man I knew who became ordained became a real egotist after - would growl at the people who'd known, loved and supported him for years "Stand up!" when he entered a room after ordination.  It stopped being a delight that this man had been so honored, and became an embarrassment.  To me, at least.

I now have a number of clergy friends ordained into recognized, legitimate, ministries.  I think they'd be quite concerned for my mental health if I started jumping up whenever they entered a room.  (Or maybe concerned for my physical needs - perhaps I wanted to use a toilet or something?   )

[oldiesman]

1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

So, you're saying that Mr "I hate Roman Catholicism so much that I ranted if my original congregation even had a Christmas tree in their house",  Mr "Let's Put an anti-Roman Catholic book in the twi bookstore"  turned around and copied the Roman Catholic Church to get people to stand when he entered the room?

No... and I didn't realize you were talking about the motives of twi.   In that case probably not.

[Rocky]

15 hours ago, Twinky said:

A man I knew who became ordained became a real egotist after - would growl at the people who'd known, loved and supported him for years "Stand up!" when he entered a room after ordination.  It stopped being a delight that this man had been so honored, and became an embarrassment.  To me, at least.

We've ALL heard the aphorism that power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. THAT is the bottom line and entire essence of Victor Wierwille's ministry. And frankly, Martindale made it look even more starkly so.



The Abuses of Power

PRINCIPLE 13 Power leads to empathy deficits and diminished moral sentiments.

PRINCIPLE 14 Power leads to self-serving impulsivity.

PRINCIPLE 15 Power leads to incivility and disrespect.

PRINCIPLE 16 Power leads to narratives of exceptionalism.

Keltner, Dacher. The Power Paradox (p. 101). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 
 

Twinky ALSO said (further up on this page)

Quote

The other half is that feelings of inferiority were instilled in non-Corps folk, who were taught to look up to Corps as founts of all "spiritual" knowledge and understanding.  And that probably started right from the first PFAL class anyone took.  "Save your questions till the last session, and then ask."  By which time, you'd been browbeaten over many sessions by so many "helpers" to think that some other person had all the answers.

 

Could it be possible for ALL of us to write memoirs highlighting how we endured TWIs drama depicting all four of those Abuse of Power principles?

Edited September 8, 2022 by Rocky
Combine Twinky's comments and respond to both in one comment.