Stand for the entrance of a head of state, or the entrance of a Bible teacher.

[WordWolf]

Anyone know where this "stand when a Bible teacher enters the room" nonsense started?

Most people will stand for a head of state, and maybe a foreign dignitary.

Ever heard of a church or something where this is required- one that isn't ex-twi?

[chockfull]

I think the origin of standing is formal protocol for foreign dignitaries and other vip status people.

Interestingly it is in the news now due to Kamala Harris book being published, where she felt slighted that White House aids stood for Biden entering the room but not her.

Its a subconscious control method of course.

Some dictators would have peasants executed that didn’t stand up or bow in their presence.  

In modern day seems like formal tradition mixed with narcissistic need.

I mean like as a group for instance I haven’t seen a whole lot of fruit from the group labeled Way clergy that would inspire me to stand up or anything.  With some noted exceptions they are largely an ego driven worthless lot.

But their mentality also many times is like the dictators who would execute peasants.

[mstar1]

Many of the more formal and higher church denominations begin a worship service with a procession into the church  of clergy, acolytes, attendants and others involved in the service during the opening hymn. It is generally customary for the congregation to stand. That has been happening for over a thousand years

The intent is not to honor the clergy but for the congregation to recognize and participate in the beginning of the worship service.  

I know hundreds of clergy from various denominations, this is the only instance that  I can think of where someone is expected to stand “when clergy enters the room”.. 

I have no idea but it could partly be a bastardization and misinterpretation of that... but mostly i think it is due to  overblown egos, and fragile sense of self importance 

[Rocky]

IOW, narcissistic bull$hit. 

[Nathan_Jr]

We stand for those we respect, either voluntarily or compulsorily, according to social norms.

We stand for the judge AND the jury in a courtroom. Soldiers stand at attention for their commanders. Does everyone stand for the President? (I'm thinking of the press corps - do journalists stand at a press conference when the President enters?) Here in the Deep South, some of us stand for women whenever they stand, and sit after they sit.

I suspect standing for an authoritative figure goes back to emperors and kings, who were usually military leaders. Standing for self-proclaimed religious leaders has its tradition in the Catholic Church - not 1st century, not Paul (as much as he would have loved the attention).

If one has to whine about others standing for him, one doesn't deserve the gesture of respect. Whining about such a thing tips one's hand to one's illegitimacy.

[T-Bone]

3 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

We stand for those we respect, either voluntarily or compulsorily, according to social norms.

We stand for the judge AND the jury in a courtroom. Soldiers stand at attention for their commanders. Does everyone stand for the President? (I'm thinking of the press corps - do journalists stand at a press conference when the President enters?) Here in the Deep South, some of us stand for women whenever they stand, and sit after they sit.

I suspect standing for an authoritative figure goes back to emperors and kings, who were usually military leaders. Standing for self-proclaimed religious leaders has its tradition in the Catholic Church - not 1st century, not Paul (as much as he would have loved the attention).

If one has to whine about others standing for him, one doesn't deserve the gesture of respect. Whining about such a thing tips one's hand to one's illegitimacy.

Good post, Nathan!

And this one line of yours is a gem: If one has to whine about others standing for him, one doesn't deserve the gesture of respect. Whining about such a thing tips one's hand to one's illegitimacy.

What immediately came to mind was wierwille always demanding everyone address him as “Doctor”.

[WordWolf]

Right!  People who actually earned an accredited degree don't insist on being called "Doctor" all the time.  vpw's insistence on being addressed by his unaccredited "doctor" is really more about insecurity than anything else. 

 

 

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

Right!  People who actually earned an accredited degree don't insist on being called "Doctor" all the time.  vpw's insistence on being addressed by his unaccredited "doctor" is really more about insecurity than anything else. 

 

 

Insecurity... isn't that central to narcissism? 

Btw, standing for Wierwille and Martindale entering rooms highlights the bass ackward social nature of the cult. I wonder if Jesus expected people to stand when he entered. Hmmm... oh, that's right, he washed the feet of his disciples, didn't he?

Did Victor ever do that? Not that I go along with the Catholic church, but Pope Francis washed/washes people's feet. 

[Nathan_Jr]

13 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Insecurity... isn't that central to narcissism? 

Yep. Central. Fundamental. Foundational.

His deeply profound insecurity may not be mentioned enough, but this quality is clearly evident in every letter to his early congregational off-shoot, every Corpse letter, and even in quotations attributed to him in POP. Though much of POP is spurious, the quotes showing his whiny insecurities are too embarrassing to be made up by a sycophant like Greer, they are an unintentional indictment of his narcissism.

[OldSkool]

That BS started with VP and I can't speak to how much of a demand he put on his followers simply because I wasn't involved in TWI until 96. However, the following example shows how insane all of it became over time:

I had been running snow removal crews at HQ since 4:30am and it was a particularly bad storm so we were battered from the elements as well as the long hours. I took a break around 1:30-2pm in the afternoon...literally my first time stopping since 4:30am. I went into my office and was sitting there with a shell shocked feeling I was trying to shake, when Rosalie walked into my office unexpectedly. I was shocked she was standing there and I greeted her very respectfully but forgot to stand. Before she soke to me she motioned me out of my chair and onto my feet before she would even talk. I think that about says it all.

[Rocky]

12 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Before she spoke to me she motioned me out of my chair and onto my feet before she would even talk. I think that about says it all.

That's sad. And overwhelmingly ironic. Perhaps she would have been more appropriate in the situation if she had offered to bring you hot cocoa or maybe washed your feet. 

[OldSkool]

13 hours ago, Rocky said:

That's sad. And overwhelmingly ironic. Perhaps she would have been more appropriate in the situation if she had offered to bring you hot cocoa or maybe washed your feet. 

That would have been very much appreciated and inspiring. But...her true colors shone through.

[engine]

Vpw thought of himself as a great general and his love of the Marines is common knowledge and we were Corps.  One quote stands out: "The request of a general is tantamount to a command." I heard that several times including the first month of first year in rez. Once vpw said it about himself all the BS Leaders started saying it. That meant that even his suggestions were to be taken seriously. That's why I read  The Source by Michner in 1982: (who I can't stand.)

The standing up reminds me of the "Ten-HUT!" seen in the WWII movies when a superior officer enters the room to give briefing at a podium. That's Military, and not Scriptural. "The mission ahead will be hazardous," we were told,"but you have been well trained and armed with the 9. Success is yours. You shall stand before Kings and Queens in the end." BS.

But Rank was all over TWI. It started with the nametags: Plastic was first, paper inferior. Rev. meant superior rank, corpse was high rank with corpse number playing into it, too. Also who is on what Board, the seniority of who had been around longer, and on and on. I'm surprised we didn't salute at HQ. Yep.  We did all but salute.

To me It started with vpw's twisted, arrogant, superior view of himself, and trickeled down to the field. I don't believe it had anything to do with standing up in Church when the  Minister and Choir come into the Sanctuary kind-of-thing. I'm surprised, now that I think about it, why there wasn't a "Standing Up Code" like there was a "Dress Code." HA! More rules to march by.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by engine
no clue

[waysider]

1 hour ago, engine said:

Rev. meant superior rank, corpse was high rank with corps number playing into it

FellowLaborer was PFC.

[T-Bone]

8 minutes ago, waysider said:

FellowLaborer was PFC.

marked and avoided = dishonorable discharge

[engine]

ROA Honey Wagon crew= KP duty.

[WordWolf]

vpw wouldn't know military procedure if it bit him in the ankle. 

vpw never went into the military.  vpw never went into the Reserve.   vpw never went into the National Guard.  vpw never went into the ROTC.     When WWII   was in the distance, vpw entered divinity school, which just happened to move him out of the pool of possible draft candidates.  Anyone who thinks that's a coincidence when he'd previously been dithering over entering business or music, well, what can I say?

vpw never had any immediate family or immediate friends enter the military, or even anything else I mentioned above. 

All vpw knew about the military was what it said in the movies and on TV.    If he'd really loved the Marines, he'd have JOINED the Marines.  What he loved was the appearance, the "bark an order and they do it" thing.  He had no idea what it was to BE a Marine.  He never even participated in tabletop general exercises for fun.  So, the only thing he liked about generals was the  "I get to bark an order and they have to obey" thing from entertainment.    Anything behind it didn't even exist for him.

[OldSkool]

8 hours ago, engine said:

Vpw thought of himself as a great general and his love of the Marines is common knowledge and we were Corps.  One quote stands out: "The request of a general is tantamount to a command." I heard that several times including the first month of first year in rez. Once vpw said it about himself all the BS Leaders started saying it. That meant that even his suggestions were to be taken seriously. That's why I read  The Source by Michner in 1982: (who I can't stand.)

The standing up reminds me of the "Ten-HUT!" seen in the WWII movies when a superior officer enters the room to give briefing at a podium. That's Military, and not Scriptural. "The mission ahead will be hazardous," we were told,"but you have been well trained and armed with the 9. Success is yours. You shall stand before Kings and Queens in the end." BS.

But Rank was all over TWI. It started with the nametags: Plastic was first, paper inferior. Rev. meant superior rank, corpse was high rank with corpse number playing into it, too. Also who is on what Board, the seniority of who had been around longer, and on and on. I'm surprised we didn't salute at HQ. Yep.  We did all but salute.

To me It started with vpw's twisted, arrogant, superior view of himself, and trickeled down to the field. I don't believe it had anything to do with standing up in Church when the  Minister and Choir come into the Sanctuary kind-of-thing. I'm surprised, now that I think about it, why there wasn't a "Standing Up Code" like there was a "Dress Code." HA! More rules to march by.

 

 

4 hours ago, WordWolf said:

vpw wouldn't know military procedure if it bit him in the ankle. 

vpw never went into the military.  vpw never went into the Reserve.   vpw never went into the National Guard.  vpw never went into the ROTC.     When WWII   was in the distance, vpw entered divinity school, which just happened to move him out of the pool of possible draft candidates.  Anyone who thinks that's a coincidence when he'd previously been dithering over entering business or music, well, what can I say?

vpw never had any immediate family or immediate friends enter the military, or even anything else I mentioned above. 

All vpw knew about the military was what it said in the movies and on TV.    If he'd really loved the Marines, he'd have JOINED the Marines.  What he loved was the appearance, the "bark an order and they do it" thing.  He had no idea what it was to BE a Marine.  He never even participated in tabletop general exercises for fun.  So, the only thing he liked about generals was the  "I get to bark an order and they have to obey" thing from entertainment.    Anything behind it didn't even exist for him.

Respondind to both posts but not in turn.
 

way international leadership still behaves the exact same way. They say it's out of respect for the word that an individual teaches and that's why they stand. Bottom line is way international leadership - particularly the way corps want to be served and they demand it. The higher up the foodchain you get the more protocol is demanded from followers. Now, with HQ they have streamlined some of the standing...at the noon meal for example --- staff don't have to stand up when eating everytime someone comes to the lectern. The head table...geez....what a fiasco. The headtable servers have their own little doctrines they use to do special favors for the directors. Of course they say it's to bless the directors for all they do for us...or some such drivel. I had to sit at the head table for an entire week everytime I emceed the noon meal when I was cabinet. It's one of the stuffiest, fake environments I have ever been a part of. And it was nothing to get a call from Rosalie reproving me for the slightest offence. Chockfull really hits the nail on the head calling them pharisees. They do prefer the cheif seats and special adoration. They are not servants but are there to be served.

As late as 1999, my candidate year for the way corps, I was given military books to read. Books on Chesty Puller, et. al. They weren't required reading but suggested to me by local leadership so I could get a grasp on the pretend military lifestyle of active way corps....and a suggestion is paramount to a command. I was taught that very early on in my short way corps career. Bottom line (from my personal experience) is the way international has a caste system and the further up the ladder you are able to climb the more you can demand to be served and salaamed by followers. The way corps are some of the most egotistical people I have ever met. I was egotistical as all get out when I was way corps too. That's something that was taught by example in my training and a very undesireable character trait I have had to work to overcome. 

[Nathan_Jr]

This thread is pure gold!! The stories are simultaneously fascinating and horrifying.

A request is tantamount to a command? Like a request for a foot rub? Or a request for fellatio? A request to abort an embarrassing and incriminating pregnancy?  Bullsh¡t.

 

(One might expect a logical evolution of paradigms from military general to athletic coach, especially after "Athletes of the Spirit." After all the effort to manufacture error in translation and interpretation in order to make it fit a carnal narrative, why not commit to the metaphor? I mean, a lot of creative and imaginative work went into changing what the text says to support the cringeworthy "Athletes of the Spirit." The fact is, Paul alternated between athletic and military metaphors - he used BOTH, and it's not a contradiction.)

**Sorry. Athletes of the Spirit was a chunk of vomit stuck in my throat for some time. Had to get I out.

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
The Ministry, the Ministry, and nothing but the Ministry!

[OldSkool]

50 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

**Sorry. Athletes of the Spirit was a chunk of vomit stuck in my throat for some time. Had to get I out.

One of my corps brothers witnessed to the seed of the serpent lady while going door to door in Gunnison....lol...she was visiting a relative and really didn't have much of an interest in coming to a fellowship...geee....I wonder why that was?....lol

[Nathan_Jr]

42 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

One of my corps brothers witnessed to the seed of the serpent lady while going door to door in Gunnison....lol...she was visiting a relative and really didn't have much of an interest in coming to a fellowship...geee....I wonder why that was?....lol

THA or AH seed of the serpent lady? A distinction. Like AMOG or TMOG.

Was this door to door witnessing a persistent occurrence in Gunnison? How much of an impact did or does TWI have on this little town?

My brother went to college in Gunnison at Western State, but he chose to live in Crested Butte and commute. It was an hour and a half each way, I think. He was adamant about NOT EVER living in Gunny. He hated it, but he loved Crested Butte.
He seemed to hate Gunnison as much as he loved the Butte.

I always found this peculiar. I wonder if the presence of TWI's commanders could have affected his experience with the locals. He surely would have been labeled a seed boy.

[waysider]

"Father shows me a white heart if they have holy spirit and a black heart if they have the seed of the serpent."

Hahahahahahahahaha!

( I swear, you can't make this stuff up.)

Edited September 2, 2022 by waysider

[OldSkool]

42 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Was this door to door witnessing a persistent occurrence in Gunnison? How much of an impact did or does TWI have on this little town?

We were pests.

[Nathan_Jr]

7 minutes ago, waysider said:

"Father shows me a white heart if they have holy spirit and a black heart if they have the seed of the serpent."

Hahahahahahahahaha!

(I swear, you can't make this stuff up.)

 

Is that what his father shows him? Let me guess -- the second showing establishes it. Because his father might change his mind, he needs at least two showings.

Piles and piles and piles of bullsh¡t.

(It wouldn't be as funny if you did make it up.)

[waysider]

And people wonder why I found the Advanced Class depressing. 

Sheesh!