I'm just wondering if the Way still teaches that you must pay at least ten percent of your income to the organisation or God will not "spit in your direction", because if they do, it ain't mentioned here. I'd consider that to be a major part of their belief system, if this is still true. Come on Vern, fess up!
I'm just wondering if the Way still teaches that you must pay at least ten percent of your income to the organisation or God will not "spit in your direction", because if they do, it ain't mentioned here. I'd consider that to be a major part of their belief system, if this is still true. Come on Vern, fess up!
They still teach the same erroneous junk on tithe and abs. Never mind that tithing was to cover the levites for their temple service...I digress. They've toned down the spit in your direction thing...that was a Craig-ism. Don't get me wrong...that syrupy sweetness they have is fake and was Rosalies doing. They're still just as jaded under the hood....though they have waxed the outside the car up nicely....
With twi, it's always what they DON'T say that carries all the real information. IIRC, they've never mentioned the mandatory tithes of 10% or more, or how BLIND obedience to the people at the top is mandatory as well.
With twi, it's always what they DON'T say that carries all the real information. IIRC, they've never mentioned the mandatory tithes of 10% or more, or how BLIND obedience to the people at the top is mandatory as well.
True that!
and in a similar vein...and maybe I’m being picayune…but it seems to me there’s an unintended allusion to the Trinity in item # 2, with Holy Spiritbeing capitalized. But if memory serves, wierwille taught that Holy Spirit (with capitals) referred to God whereas as holy spirit (lower case h and s- as in item # 9 ) referred to what’s in born-again believers:
2. We believe in one God, the Creator of the heavens and earth; in Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten Son, our lord and savior, whom God raised from the dead; and we believe in the workings of the Holy Spirit.
9. We believe in the receiving of the fullness of the holy spirit, the power from on high, and the corresponding nine manifestations of the holy spirit for all born-again believers.
Of course, as a disenchanted cult-follower I could also see item 2as TWI’s typical sneaky misrepresentation of something. A Trinitarian reading item # 2 might understand that to mean TWI believes in the Trinity…until they happen to look at the bookstore and see wierwille’s Jesus Christ is Not God book…Doctrine-and-practice-wise I don’t think there’s an issue when one is a true follower of Jesus Christ – whether Jesus Christ is or not - he’s still Lord - so what’s the problem?
Why do I say TWI’s typical sneaky misrepresentation of something? Because that is their standard of deception to rope you in. Like them saying the Way Corps Rome City campus was an accredited college. Well, it wasn’t! Of course I didn’t find out until after I attended it for 2 years and they had taken 2 years out of my life that I will never get back as well as the money from my sponsors.
So, sometimes the deception is pulled off by what they don't say...and sometimes they just flat out lie !
and in a similar vein...and maybe I’m being picayune…but it seems to me there’s an unintended allusion to the Trinity in item # 2, with Holy Spiritbeing capitalized. But if memory serves, wierwille taught that Holy Spirit (with capitals) referred to God whereas as holy spirit (lower case h and s- as in item # 9 ) referred to what’s in born-again believers:
2. We believe in one God, the Creator of the heavens and earth; in Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten Son, our lord and savior, whom God raised from the dead; and we believe in the workings of the Holy Spirit.
9. We believe in the receiving of the fullness of the holy spirit, the power from on high, and the corresponding nine manifestations of the holy spirit for all born-again believers.
Dude...good catch. I can verify first hand that their own Way Styles documents specify the difference in Holy Spirit and holy spirit. Not only do they teach it in their classes, it's codified in Way Publications/Presidents Publications departments. Now...the real question is, as you stated, is this a typo or shift in doctrine?
With twi, it's always what they DON'T say that carries all the real information. IIRC, they've never mentioned the mandatory tithes of 10% or more, or how BLIND obedience to the people at the top is mandatory as well.
Yeah...that part. I learned first hand about the old switcheroo in going from being on the field to headquarters. At HQ is where what they don't say on the field came out in full force because at HQ is where all the blind obedience is pushed on people almost like a pseudo boot camp for new staffers. My first years at HQ was awful. Why? Because they broke me down to the point that I learned to go along with the program. So yeah....what you said here really lives for me.
What is missing is this reads like a mainstream Christian denominations statement of beliefs. It has a ring like the Apostles Creed and sounds official.
However two of their bullets butcher what they actually teach on the trinity and Godhead to sound more mainstream Christian. Why?
To fool incoming new potential followers. They are not leading with JCNG and ADAN. They hide that like they hide the financial control stuff.
When in the history of the Way have they ever operated outside of closed corporation decisions? When have they ever collaborated with a single other Christian group or entity toward a common body of Christ goal?
No, Paul identified this not by statement of beliefs but by impact on the overall body of Christ.
We believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were “given by inspiration of God” [theopneustos, “God-breathed”] (II Timothy 3:16) and perfect as originally given;
What does this mean? We don't have the original autographs. I'm sure this is strategic phrasing. Any thoughts on this hedge?
victor loved to say, "I wish you could read it in the original." HOWEVER he didn't even have an elementary grasp of Greek - the original written language of the New Testament.
Edited by Nathan_Jr The will, the will, and nothing but the will.
What is missing is this reads like a mainstream Christian denominations statement of beliefs. It has a ring like the Apostles Creed and sounds official.
However two of their bullets butcher what they actually teach on the trinity and Godhead to sound more mainstream Christian. Why?
To fool incoming new potential followers.
That is a great point, Chockfull !
In my opinion, wierwille/TWI use Jesus Christ and the trappings of Christianity like window dressing on a store front display. “If any of this looks like something you want, then come on in to our store and take the class!” It’s the old switcheroo…bait and switch.
But the thing is – if items 1, 9, and 10 are true – then WHYdo I need to take their stupid class??????
1.We believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were “given by inspiration of God” [theopneustos, “God-breathed”] (II Timothy 3:16) and perfect as originally given; that the God-breathed Word is of supreme, absolute, and final authority for believing and godliness.
9. We believe in the receiving of the fullness of the holy spirit, the power from on high, and the corresponding nine manifestations of the holy spirit for all born-again believers.
10. We believe it is available to receive all that God promises us in His Word according to our believing faith. We believe we are free in Christ Jesus to receive all that he accomplished for us by his substitution.
If the Old and New Testament are indeed the God-breathed Word…if we’ve received the holy spirit…if we are free in Christ Jesus to receive all that he accomplished – then again, I ask – why in the hell do we need PFAL, WAP, PFAL Today or any of their other stupid classes?!?!?!
Geez, typical sleazy-money-grubbing-sales-reps/cult-leaders trying to sell me $hit I don’t need!
Oh, and don’t give me that “we’re a research ministry – so we’re experts on what the Bible really says and promises – how to receive the promises and how to operate the manifestations” …wierwille and everyone else that follows in his deceitful, abusive, manipulative, and exploitative path are so full of $hit and have NOTHING to support their claims!!!!
Edited by T-Bone statement of belief: I am the editor - dats riiiiiight!!!
In my opinion, wierwille/TWI use Jesus Christ and the trappings of Christianity like window dressing on a store front display. “If any of this looks like something you want, then come on in to our store and take the class!” It’s the old switcheroo…bait and switch.
But the thing is – if items 1, 9, and 10 are true – then WHYdo I need to take their stupid class??????
1.We believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were “given by inspiration of God” [theopneustos, “God-breathed”] (II Timothy 3:16) and perfect as originally given; that the God-breathed Word is of supreme, absolute, and final authority for believing and godliness.
9. We believe in the receiving of the fullness of the holy spirit, the power from on high, and the corresponding nine manifestations of the holy spirit for all born-again believers.
10. We believe it is available to receive all that God promises us in His Word according to our believing faith. We believe we are free in Christ Jesus to receive all that he accomplished for us by his substitution.
If the Old and New Testament are indeed the God-breathed Word…if we’ve received the holy spirit…if we are free in Christ Jesus to receive all that he accomplished – then again, I ask – why in the hell do we need PFAL, WAP, PFAL Today or any of their other stupid classes?!?!?!
Geez, typical sleazy-money-grubbing-sales-reps/cult-leaders trying to sell me $hit I don’t need!
Because, T-Bone, you don't know how (H--O-W). You don't know HOW to defecate in the mouth of God. That's why you need the class! How (H-O-W) can you learn to take a dump in the mouth of God unless you've been taught?
If only you could read it in the original...
Edited by Nathan_Jr How (H-O-W) will you learn about beastiality unless you are taught by T7TMOG.
We believe in the receiving of the fullness of the holy spirit, the power from on high, and the corresponding nine manifestations of the holy spirit for all born-again believers.
We believe it is available to receive all that God promises us in His Word according to our believing faith. We believe we are free in Christ Jesus to receive all that he accomplished for us by his substitution.
I agree with WordWolf and T-Bone.......sneaky misrepresentations trying to "rope people in."
Read I Corinthians 12.....the whole chapter. It specifies in detail the operation of holy spirit to each and every believer with the ultimate view of profit withal. After detailing the specific NINE manifestations.....all believers are MEMBERS IN PARTICULAR; the foot is not better than the hand, and if all were eyes what about the hearing? The board of directors is NOT better than the "hands" that serve on the field the bread of life, teaching of Jesus Christ. Notice: twi never teaches about "the greatest leader is the greatest servant." Yet, the four gospels paint in glorious detail how Jesus Christ was the greatest servant in life, and even submitting to the crucifixion. Yet, in flagrant hypocrisy and contrast, the cult has established a pecking order, a caste system, a hierarchy where Pharisees rule over the masses and demand blind allegiance.
Everything about that hook in pfal, ie. "Christ-in-you, the hope of glory" has been turned on its head in twi. They SAY one thing.....and DO another. They are liars, seducers, deceivers thwarting the very essence of "the holy spirit field" wherein walking by the spirit was and is Christian faith in practice. Twi is a cult because of its methods of control and deception. They talk of "freedom in Christ" while holding the keys to padlock you inside their cult-religion. They say you are able to "walk by the spirit".....but constantly demand that you obey leadership, mandates and protocols. And further, when you observe the lives of twi's top leadership......where IS that walking by the spirit and power of God?
Those who truly DID walk in power......left twi decades ago. The cult-loyalists remain.
The very reason why the Scriptures say "ye shall know them BY THEIR FRUITS" --- is because fair words and good speeches can be so easily deceptive and corrupt. In today's world, most have lost that connection to the land, soil, orchards, gardens, etc. We simply go to the grocery store and purchase what we want, then put it in our refrigerators and pantry. But not that long ago....people were tied to the land and closely observed the land, and nature. Inspect THEIR fruit and see if you want THAT in your refrigerator.
We believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were “given by inspiration of God” [theopneustos, “God-breathed”] (II Timothy 3:16) and perfect as originally given; that the God-breathed Word is of supreme, absolute, and final authority for believing and godliness.
Well, starting at the top, IF they authentically believed that, wouldn't their lives show the fruit of the spirit?
I mean, I don't believe God would require people to be perfect in order for them to show such results, but come on. The "final authority?" And what does the bible say about whose responsibility it is to make the determination?
From the very beginning, The Way International was ALL about judging whether someone else measured up to
being right."
That's foundational, IMO, to undermining everything godly about that subculture.
They might not be able to recognize it or realize it in their own lives because the people who have identified the practicalities (how to actually live it) of what they claim to be twi's fundamental beliefs may not even be involved in church organizations.
From the very beginning, The Way International was ALL about judging whether someone else measured up to
being right."
*is
This is the bruise on the fruit telling you that it's rotten to the core. Do not underestimate this bruise. The one who claims to HAVE the Truth surely is the one who does not.
When defending victor's hubris, Mike said: if one can jump over a barn, is it bragging to say so? No. But who can jump over a barn? No one can. So, what does it say about the one making the claim? Everything you should need to know.
Ha! I’ll tell you what is missing from their statement of beliefs.
1. We believe that the Board of Directors are divinely called to their positions and that truth trumps all other truths in the balance of life and justifies all Machiavellian action preserving these positions.
Another thing that comes to mind is the duplicitous nature of The Way International. After thinking about everyone’s comments, for some reason I thought about chapter 13 “Why Division” in wierwille’s book “The New Dynamic Church”. I reread the chapter but the final paragraph on page 172 really grabbed my attention:
May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only-begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be part of the problem and become a part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to His Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessing to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
In stark contrast to the above amicable tone in Why Division and the mostly generic statement of beliefs on TWI’s website, several two-faced incidents keep replaying in memory:
* At a Weekend in the Word, a Heartbeat Festival and a few other open meetings, wierwille would get into one of his anti-Trinity rants saying that in order for a person to really believe in the Trinity they would have to be possessed by a devil spirit.
How does that jive with his easygoing sentiment in “Why Division”? And how does that harmonize with what Jesus Christ said inJohn 13:35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. This seems very divisive…polarizing…polemic…I mean - who wants to be possessed by a devil spirit?
* When I was in residence at Rome City, one night wierwille was expounding on the greatness and uniqueness of his ministry and drew a comparison to Jesus’ ministry. Reading about Judas taking the sop from Jesusin John 13:30He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.wierwille then made a very heavy-handed point of emphasizing when Judas left the fold he went out into spiritual darkness. To make it relevant to the corps he then reiterated Judas’ choice as being a devilishly influenced desire for self-destruction -and that we as way corps must be strong in our commitment to this ministry since the only other choice outside this ministry is oblivion. Close to the end of his talk he spelled it out even further by saying something along the lines that if we were to trip out or cop out where else would we go?
In other words, there’s no other viable options– there are no other church groups, offshoots, ministries, etc., that are feasible and will be satisfactory to one's needs. This seems very manipulative…very us-versus-them mentality.
* I think of all the character assassinations I’ve witnessed over my years of involvement -“maligning our brethren” – got to see some of it firsthand when I was in the way corps. The malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation – because that person disagreed with the cult-leader -wierwille, LCM, campus coordinator…or the person had some misfortune befall them or whatever it was that seemed to threaten leadership’s authority or could possibly shatter the illusions of The Way International’s perfect little world.
It's in the great chapter on the religious leaders…hypocrites…Pharisees…and certain aforementioned cult-leaders that you will find this gem They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden.Matthew 23:4 NLT
Edited by T-Bone Why division and square roots don’t add up is beyond me but I think there’s multiple problems involved
That quote is sooooo two-faced. It makes me want to tear my hair out. Contentious and difficult, bickering, dividing.... Aargh!
And - what??? WTF??
May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only-begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be part of the problem and become a part of the answer
Huh?? They got the "bless with such an abundance" all right - they forgot the "become part of the answer." (What exactly was the question, again? "Let's not be divisive" or some such?) In fact, they are not part of the problem - they are the problem.
Yes, T-Bone. Yes.
Oh, the irony of victor's bull$hit.
4 hours ago, T-Bone said:
May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment.
From the very beginning of PFAL and through virtually every SNT and recorded holding forth, victor maligns the brethren, the Body of Christ. The level varies from subtle, devilish winks of a prosthetic eye, to overt, melodramatic rambling. HOWEVER, it's always, always there - the division pouring forth from and created by victor's unenlightened heart.
4 hours ago, T-Bone said:
There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition.
WTAF does this bull$hit word salad sentence mean? Which is it? What are we talking about here? Division inside the church or outside? Is the division between Republicans and Democrats the opposition? The outside, arbitrary divisions between Mickey and Donald are what we must move forward with strength against? The racial divide is our opposition? Word salad. victor wrote hundreds, if not thousands, of word salad sentences like this. The unenlightened are easily impressed.
4 hours ago, T-Bone said:
May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to His Holy Word.
Oh, so sinister. Here we go again. Always with the teaching and slavery and defecating in the mouth of God and in the mouths of those seeking Him.. This is NOT what being filled with love means. And it's not a result of being filled with love. BUT, for the cult leader, teachability is critical.
Edited by Nathan_Jr No one is more wickedly divisive than T7TMOG. Not since the first century. I wish you could read it in the original.
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Pete
I'm just wondering if the Way still teaches that you must pay at least ten percent of your income to the organisation or God will not "spit in your direction", because if they do, it ain't mentioned here. I'd consider that to be a major part of their belief system, if this is still true. Come on Vern, fess up!
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outandabout
Actually it was more than 10% or God wouldn't spit in our direction.
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OldSkool
They still teach the same erroneous junk on tithe and abs. Never mind that tithing was to cover the levites for their temple service...I digress. They've toned down the spit in your direction thing...that was a Craig-ism. Don't get me wrong...that syrupy sweetness they have is fake and was Rosalies doing. They're still just as jaded under the hood....though they have waxed the outside the car up nicely....
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Twinky
What's missing?
"We believe salvation is by grace and not by works." Nor is salvation achieved by slavish follow-the-TWI leader.
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WordWolf
With twi, it's always what they DON'T say that carries all the real information. IIRC, they've never mentioned the mandatory tithes of 10% or more, or how BLIND obedience to the people at the top is mandatory as well.
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T-Bone
True that!
and in a similar vein...and maybe I’m being picayune…but it seems to me there’s an unintended allusion to the Trinity in item # 2, with Holy Spirit being capitalized. But if memory serves, wierwille taught that Holy Spirit (with capitals) referred to God whereas as holy spirit (lower case h and s - as in item # 9 ) referred to what’s in born-again believers:
2. We believe in one God, the Creator of the heavens and earth; in Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten Son, our lord and savior, whom God raised from the dead; and we believe in the workings of the Holy Spirit.
9. We believe in the receiving of the fullness of the holy spirit, the power from on high, and the corresponding nine manifestations of the holy spirit for all born-again believers.
From: The Way org: statement of beliefs
~ ~ ~ ~
Of course, as a disenchanted cult-follower I could also see item 2 as TWI’s typical sneaky misrepresentation of something. A Trinitarian reading item # 2 might understand that to mean TWI believes in the Trinity…until they happen to look at the bookstore and see wierwille’s Jesus Christ is Not God book…Doctrine-and-practice-wise I don’t think there’s an issue when one is a true follower of Jesus Christ – whether Jesus Christ is or not - he’s still Lord - so what’s the problem?
Why do I say TWI’s typical sneaky misrepresentation of something? Because that is their standard of deception to rope you in. Like them saying the Way Corps Rome City campus was an accredited college. Well, it wasn’t! Of course I didn’t find out until after I attended it for 2 years and they had taken 2 years out of my life that I will never get back as well as the money from my sponsors.
So, sometimes the deception is pulled off by what they don't say...and sometimes they just flat out lie !
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OldSkool
Dude...good catch. I can verify first hand that their own Way Styles documents specify the difference in Holy Spirit and holy spirit. Not only do they teach it in their classes, it's codified in Way Publications/Presidents Publications departments. Now...the real question is, as you stated, is this a typo or shift in doctrine?
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OldSkool
Yeah...that part. I learned first hand about the old switcheroo in going from being on the field to headquarters. At HQ is where what they don't say on the field came out in full force because at HQ is where all the blind obedience is pushed on people almost like a pseudo boot camp for new staffers. My first years at HQ was awful. Why? Because they broke me down to the point that I learned to go along with the program. So yeah....what you said here really lives for me.
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chockfull
What is missing is this reads like a mainstream Christian denominations statement of beliefs. It has a ring like the Apostles Creed and sounds official.
However two of their bullets butcher what they actually teach on the trinity and Godhead to sound more mainstream Christian. Why?
To fool incoming new potential followers. They are not leading with JCNG and ADAN. They hide that like they hide the financial control stuff.
When in the history of the Way have they ever operated outside of closed corporation decisions? When have they ever collaborated with a single other Christian group or entity toward a common body of Christ goal?
No, Paul identified this not by statement of beliefs but by impact on the overall body of Christ.
Shipwrecked with a good story.
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Nathan_Jr
What does this mean? We don't have the original autographs. I'm sure this is strategic phrasing. Any thoughts on this hedge?
victor loved to say, "I wish you could read it in the original." HOWEVER he didn't even have an elementary grasp of Greek - the original written language of the New Testament.
Edited by Nathan_JrThe will, the will, and nothing but the will.
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OldSkool
They feel since God is perfect that whomever actually wrote the revelation down would have done so perfectly. Complete conjecture on their part.
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T-Bone
That is a great point, Chockfull !
In my opinion, wierwille/TWI use Jesus Christ and the trappings of Christianity like window dressing on a store front display. “If any of this looks like something you want, then come on in to our store and take the class!” It’s the old switcheroo…bait and switch.
But the thing is – if items 1, 9, and 10 are true – then WHY do I need to take their stupid class??????
1.We believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were “given by inspiration of God” [theopneustos, “God-breathed”] (II Timothy 3:16) and perfect as originally given; that the God-breathed Word is of supreme, absolute, and final authority for believing and godliness.
9. We believe in the receiving of the fullness of the holy spirit, the power from on high, and the corresponding nine manifestations of the holy spirit for all born-again believers.
10. We believe it is available to receive all that God promises us in His Word according to our believing faith. We believe we are free in Christ Jesus to receive all that he accomplished for us by his substitution.
From: The Way org: statement of beliefs
~ ~ ~ ~
If the Old and New Testament are indeed the God-breathed Word…if we’ve received the holy spirit…if we are free in Christ Jesus to receive all that he accomplished – then again, I ask – why in the hell do we need PFAL, WAP, PFAL Today or any of their other stupid classes?!?!?!
Geez, typical sleazy-money-grubbing-sales-reps/cult-leaders trying to sell me $hit I don’t need!
Oh, and don’t give me that “we’re a research ministry – so we’re experts on what the Bible really says and promises – how to receive the promises and how to operate the manifestations” …wierwille and everyone else that follows in his deceitful, abusive, manipulative, and exploitative path are so full of $hit and have NOTHING to support their claims!!!!
Edited by T-Bonestatement of belief: I am the editor - dats riiiiiight!!!
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Nathan_Jr
Because, T-Bone, you don't know how (H--O-W). You don't know HOW to defecate in the mouth of God. That's why you need the class! How (H-O-W) can you learn to take a dump in the mouth of God unless you've been taught?
If only you could read it in the original...
Edited by Nathan_JrHow (H-O-W) will you learn about beastiality unless you are taught by T7TMOG.
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skyrider
I agree with WordWolf and T-Bone.......sneaky misrepresentations trying to "rope people in."
Read I Corinthians 12.....the whole chapter. It specifies in detail the operation of holy spirit to each and every believer with the ultimate view of profit withal. After detailing the specific NINE manifestations.....all believers are MEMBERS IN PARTICULAR; the foot is not better than the hand, and if all were eyes what about the hearing? The board of directors is NOT better than the "hands" that serve on the field the bread of life, teaching of Jesus Christ. Notice: twi never teaches about "the greatest leader is the greatest servant." Yet, the four gospels paint in glorious detail how Jesus Christ was the greatest servant in life, and even submitting to the crucifixion. Yet, in flagrant hypocrisy and contrast, the cult has established a pecking order, a caste system, a hierarchy where Pharisees rule over the masses and demand blind allegiance.
Everything about that hook in pfal, ie. "Christ-in-you, the hope of glory" has been turned on its head in twi. They SAY one thing.....and DO another. They are liars, seducers, deceivers thwarting the very essence of "the holy spirit field" wherein walking by the spirit was and is Christian faith in practice. Twi is a cult because of its methods of control and deception. They talk of "freedom in Christ" while holding the keys to padlock you inside their cult-religion. They say you are able to "walk by the spirit".....but constantly demand that you obey leadership, mandates and protocols. And further, when you observe the lives of twi's top leadership......where IS that walking by the spirit and power of God?
Those who truly DID walk in power......left twi decades ago. The cult-loyalists remain.
The very reason why the Scriptures say "ye shall know them BY THEIR FRUITS" --- is because fair words and good speeches can be so easily deceptive and corrupt. In today's world, most have lost that connection to the land, soil, orchards, gardens, etc. We simply go to the grocery store and purchase what we want, then put it in our refrigerators and pantry. But not that long ago....people were tied to the land and closely observed the land, and nature. Inspect THEIR fruit and see if you want THAT in your refrigerator.
Edited by skyridertypo
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Rocky
Well, starting at the top, IF they authentically believed that, wouldn't their lives show the fruit of the spirit?
I mean, I don't believe God would require people to be perfect in order for them to show such results, but come on. The "final authority?" And what does the bible say about whose responsibility it is to make the determination?
From the very beginning, The Way International was ALL about judging whether someone else measured up to
being right."
That's foundational, IMO, to undermining everything godly about that subculture.
They might not be able to recognize it or realize it in their own lives because the people who have identified the practicalities (how to actually live it) of what they claim to be twi's fundamental beliefs may not even be involved in church organizations.
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Rocky
aka subterfuge.
noun Deception used to achieve an end.
noun A deceptive stratagem or device.
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Nathan_Jr
*is
This is the bruise on the fruit telling you that it's rotten to the core. Do not underestimate this bruise. The one who claims to HAVE the Truth surely is the one who does not.
When defending victor's hubris, Mike said: if one can jump over a barn, is it bragging to say so? No. But who can jump over a barn? No one can. So, what does it say about the one making the claim? Everything you should need to know.
Edited by Nathan_JrThrowing snowballs at Pete
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Rocky
Is that better?
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Nathan_Jr
Ha! If you're ok with the passive voice, I am, too. Yeah, it was ok as it was - just putting a finer point on a fine point.
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Rocky
I can't speak authentically about what it is now... but yeah, you're probably right.
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chockfull
Ha! I’ll tell you what is missing from their statement of beliefs.
1. We believe that the Board of Directors are divinely called to their positions and that truth trumps all other truths in the balance of life and justifies all Machiavellian action preserving these positions.
Just telling the truth here
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T-Bone
Another thing that comes to mind is the duplicitous nature of The Way International. After thinking about everyone’s comments, for some reason I thought about chapter 13 “Why Division” in wierwille’s book “The New Dynamic Church”. I reread the chapter but the final paragraph on page 172 really grabbed my attention:
May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only-begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be part of the problem and become a part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to His Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessing to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
In stark contrast to the above amicable tone in Why Division and the mostly generic statement of beliefs on TWI’s website, several two-faced incidents keep replaying in memory:
* At a Weekend in the Word, a Heartbeat Festival and a few other open meetings, wierwille would get into one of his anti-Trinity rants saying that in order for a person to really believe in the Trinity they would have to be possessed by a devil spirit.
How does that jive with his easygoing sentiment in “Why Division”? And how does that harmonize with what Jesus Christ said in John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. This seems very divisive…polarizing…polemic…I mean - who wants to be possessed by a devil spirit?
* When I was in residence at Rome City, one night wierwille was expounding on the greatness and uniqueness of his ministry and drew a comparison to Jesus’ ministry. Reading about Judas taking the sop from Jesus in John 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. wierwille then made a very heavy-handed point of emphasizing when Judas left the fold he went out into spiritual darkness. To make it relevant to the corps he then reiterated Judas’ choice as being a devilishly influenced desire for self-destruction - and that we as way corps must be strong in our commitment to this ministry since the only other choice outside this ministry is oblivion. Close to the end of his talk he spelled it out even further by saying something along the lines that if we were to trip out or cop out where else would we go?
In other words, there’s no other viable options – there are no other church groups, offshoots, ministries, etc., that are feasible and will be satisfactory to one's needs. This seems very manipulative…very us-versus-them mentality.
* I think of all the character assassinations I’ve witnessed over my years of involvement - “maligning our brethren” – got to see some of it firsthand when I was in the way corps. The malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation – because that person disagreed with the cult-leader - wierwille, LCM, campus coordinator…or the person had some misfortune befall them or whatever it was that seemed to threaten leadership’s authority or could possibly shatter the illusions of The Way International’s perfect little world.
It's in the great chapter on the religious leaders…hypocrites…Pharisees…and certain aforementioned cult-leaders that you will find this gem They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden. Matthew 23:4 NLT
Edited by T-BoneWhy division and square roots don’t add up is beyond me but I think there’s multiple problems involved
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Twinky
That quote is sooooo two-faced. It makes me want to tear my hair out. Contentious and difficult, bickering, dividing.... Aargh!
And - what??? WTF??
May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only-begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be part of the problem and become a part of the answer
Huh?? They got the "bless with such an abundance" all right - they forgot the "become part of the answer." (What exactly was the question, again? "Let's not be divisive" or some such?) In fact, they are not part of the problem - they are the problem.
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Nathan_Jr
Yes, T-Bone. Yes.
Oh, the irony of victor's bull$hit.
From the very beginning of PFAL and through virtually every SNT and recorded holding forth, victor maligns the brethren, the Body of Christ. The level varies from subtle, devilish winks of a prosthetic eye, to overt, melodramatic rambling. HOWEVER, it's always, always there - the division pouring forth from and created by victor's unenlightened heart.
WTAF does this bull$hit word salad sentence mean? Which is it? What are we talking about here? Division inside the church or outside? Is the division between Republicans and Democrats the opposition? The outside, arbitrary divisions between Mickey and Donald are what we must move forward with strength against? The racial divide is our opposition? Word salad. victor wrote hundreds, if not thousands, of word salad sentences like this. The unenlightened are easily impressed.
Oh, so sinister. Here we go again. Always with the teaching and slavery and defecating in the mouth of God and in the mouths of those seeking Him.. This is NOT what being filled with love means. And it's not a result of being filled with love. BUT, for the cult leader, teachability is critical.
Edited by Nathan_JrNo one is more wickedly divisive than T7TMOG. Not since the first century. I wish you could read it in the original.
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