That means we get a free pass from God and He is not at all inclined to punish, but very inclined to resume work moving His Word with us. People are not so inclined to forgive, and when they do they usually remember the hurt and there is no free pass from them or others who see the hurt.
These are very difficult issues. Studying Uriah's family and how they handled the hurt from David is enlightening. Some did not give a free pass to David, some did. The ones who did forgive and forget (somewhat) had the great benefit of hearing God's Word from David again.
~ ~ ~ ~
T-Bone's reply:
Free pass = toleration of bad behavior or poor performance
Punish = inflict a penalty or sanction on (someone) as retribution for an offense, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code
What is the difference between punishment and consequences?
Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:
God punished King David and brought upon him the evil consequences of his sin to teach him (and others) the pure character of God’s Law.
Do you agree or disagree with the following statement:
God tolerates bad behavior or poor performance.
Yes TBone this reflects VPW exact mentality.
Sin so that grace may abound. Mike picks that up in his idolatry quickly.
When Christ is absent people can act however they want with no consequence.
When He returns there will be accountability.
Not some kind of bro fest slapping backs and stories of female conquest and stealing classes for the greater good.
But in their scribe activity they sure avoid the accountability aspect of the return of Christ. Whitewash is into oblivion like the Way history. We don’t forget though and neither does the Father.
Well, it looks to me that I made some strong points on the absent Christ, so now it's time for others to bury it.
There is more that I can say about it, but I think I'll wait. This text storm has blown far away from the absent Christ now, and is just a hodge podge of attacks on me and VPW and PFAL. I am not going to try and keep up with the flood of text.
If anyone wants to get back to the topic, I will pay attention.
Well, it looks to me that I made some strong points on the absent Christ, so now it's time for others to bury it.
There is more that I can say about it, but I think I'll wait. This text storm has blown far away from the absent Christ now, and is just a hodge podge of attacks on me and VPW and PFAL. I am not going to try and keep up with the flood of text.
If anyone wants to get back to the topic, I will pay attention.
I did get back to the topic which is the absent Christ.
The topic is not Jeopardy with Mike on Way dispensationalism and Q and A on Mikes supposed expertise.
Hilarious how now you flip the script to a victim mentality and talk about “attacks”.
It seems the only thing attacking you here Mike is logic.
And people not accepting your re framing of the conversation in line with your idols.
It is what you get in mind when you work the research principles of the class, in study of the KJV or your semi-corrected Cambridge Wide-Margin Bible, or nearly any other version. Even go into the ancient languages and texts if you can. Other principles like Receive, Retain, Release are also involved in building the Word in your mind.
Jesus did the same as a youth and young man. Walking love to serve and help others are other things Jesus did to build the Word in his mind. It wasn't there automatically. He ate the Word. He did this to the max and to perfection, so he is called "the Word made flesh" in the Gospel of John.
“Living Word” concepts are not really unique in Christianity. Yes an interaction with and choice to follow the example of the absent Christ make the concepts in the Bible alive.
But PFAL is not the “living Word”.
It is a fundamentalist approach to a self interpreting Bible and a Pharisee hierarchy which sets hierarchical position in a cult above the body of Christ.
And forced compliant SIT.
PFAL could not be farther from a true living Word example of I Cor 12-14 which they take light years to break down in their fundamentalist examination.
It seems the only thing attacking you here Mike is logic.
No, I love the logic.
It's the volume of text I have to deal with.
It's like having the worst English teacher in the world, and having homework assignments to do 5 essays per day day. It is like the "English Class from Hell." Might make a good sit-com theme, but I'm too old to handle it day after day for months at a time, hours and hours on the keyboard.
Anyway, I am happy to be allowed to post what I did. The Absent Christ is now clarified for those who want to re-read all the pages back.
I may be back to post more, if it seems like it's worth it. It is not worth it to me to do round number 413 with everyone, which is what this has degenerated to.
I've been doing this since late 2002. I deserve a break today.
It's like having the worst English teacher in the world, and having homework assignments to do 5 essays per day day. It is like the "English Class from Hell." Might make a good sit-com theme, but I'm too old to handle it day after day for months at a time, hours and hours on the keyboard.
Anyway, I am happy to be allowed to post what I did. The Absent Christ is now clarified for those who want to re-read all the pages back.
I may be back to post more, if it seems like it's worth it. It is not worth it to me to do round number 413 with everyone, which is what this has degenerated to.
I've been doing this since late 2002. I deserve a break today.
Logic: The Bible is the Word of God. The Word of God replaces the absent Christ. THEREFORE, the Bible replaces the absent Christ.
Or,
Is holy spirit or the great mystery the Word that replaces the absent Christ, therefore, replaces the Bible?
It's like having the worst English teacher in the world, and having homework assignments to do 5 essays per day day. It is like the "English Class from Hell." Might make a good sit-com theme, but I'm too old to handle it day after day for months at a time, hours and hours on the keyboard.
Anyway, I am happy to be allowed to post what I did. The Absent Christ is now clarified for those who want to re-read all the pages back.
I may be back to post more, if it seems like it's worth it. It is not worth it to me to do round number 413 with everyone, which is what this has degenerated to.
I've been doing this since late 2002. I deserve a break today.
You love the logic when it agrees with your pre determined viewpoint and idol.
However when the logic challenges your predetermined viewpoint and idol you flee.
Well, it looks to me that I made some strong points on the absent Christ, so now it's time for others to bury it.
There is more that I can say about it, but I think I'll wait. This text storm has blown far away from the absent Christ now, and is just a hodge podge of attacks on me and VPW and PFAL. I am not going to try and keep up with the flood of text.
If anyone wants to get back to the topic, I will pay attention.
Mike said: Well, it looks to me that I made some strong points on the absent Christ, so now it's time for others to bury it
T-Bone’s response: That’s odd. YOUwere the one who brought up the free pass and the bad behavior of King David.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said: This text storm has blown far away from the absent Christ now, and is just a hodge podge of attacks on me and VPW and PFAL
T-Bone’s response:Would YOUpleaseshow me the specific “hodge podge” (confused mixture) of attacks on YOU ,Mike ?
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said: I am not going to try and keep up with the flood of text. If anyone wants to get back to the topic, I will pay attention.
T-Bone’s response: Why do you think criticizing wierwille and PFAL is off topic?
The unchristian ideology of wierwille and PFAL is merely a subtopic of the Absent Christ?thread.A very relevant and important subtopic - I might add since it goes deep into the ramifications of his toxic ideology - that usually minimizes, marginalizes, distorts or flat-out eliminates Christ.
Mike’s responses are so predictably dodgy. He complains my post is too long (see my long posthere - and note most of my post is quoting from the Bible...which I thought he would enjoy reading ) He says he doesn’t have time to deal with it.... When I boil it down to just three (count ‘em) threeshort questions (see my short post - here ) that are the crux of my long post, he complains it's off topic....well lookie here - you can use this post to Quantum Leap to my other posts. wow-wee-wow it's like a cross-reference crossfire.
Remember the feedback that I give TWI about your job performance on Grease Spot Cafémay affect any salary / position negotiations you are currently having with them.
That’s all for now, Mike- try to keep up
Edited by T-Bone too long or too short? We need the Goldilocks editor
So.....I ask this to you as a Christian --- Im qualifying it this way because some here aren't Christian and I would have 0 expectation that they would have trust/faith in anything Biblical for whatever reason. I respect that boundary. But for you Mike - you are Christian...same as me. Do you really believe that God almighty is incapable of bringing his will together in written form so that those who want may know him and his ways?
Personally, I think wierwille took what fit his lusts for money and position from whatever source he could, including gathering from known occultist like Albert Cliffe, and called it the word of God and claimed his stolen materials were gathered by yeeeaaars of research. That's verifiable truth. However, please answer the question above, and I will restate it for clarity.
Do you really believe that God almighty is incapable of bringing his will together in written form so that those who want to may know him and his ways?
He actually already did in a response to me about 11 hrs ago. It seems the answer to your question is "yes," but it's not the Bible, apparently.... WTAF am I saying!!! My head is about to explode with this word salad!
Mike: "Imentionedthat the phrase "the Bible" is very ambiguous.| BeforeI can answer this I you need to specify what you mean EXACTLY for every occurance of the word Bible in your post, before I can answer it in a timely manner. Otherwise I will have to ask you for each one what you mean.
*/*/*/*/*
We started this in a specific section of doctrine and now it is had drifted a bit.
Let's start all over for a minute, going back to how the Word originally got here.
God found a man who could hear Him due to diligently seeking Him. What God spoke to this man is the Word. That man tells others in love. Eventually, the man to whom God spoke tells others in written form. These kinds of writings accumulate over time. Young Jesus feeds off them. He learns them well, and then perfectly, and then shows us the Father as we see him. He is the Word made flesh. Now we get to do the same, and God will help us. It is a matter of WHO do you love. If you seek the Word of God with all your heart, then act on it. Minister what you know to others in love, like Jesus did. God will help you. Good night, sir."
He actually already did in a response to me about 11 hrs ago. It seems the answer to your question is "yes," but it's not the Bible, apparently.... WTAF am I saying!!! My head is about to explode with this word salad
And that's exactly how I used to be...so I can empathize with Mike. He probably feels he has thrown all these devil possessed people into spiritual discomfiture with what he's saying. I was way disciple twice and I was the same in my reasoning...just not as deluded. Had I kept drinking the pflap Kool aid though...yeah. I had to learn critical thinking skills after my exit from tei in 2008.
This morning I was reading about Paul’s conversion in Acts 9in NLT Chronological Life Application Study Bible and one of the study notes got me to reflect on a few watershed moments in my life. About Paul’s conversion the study note said sometimes God breaks into a life in a spectacular manner, and sometimes conversion is a quiet experience – the right way to come to faith in Jesus is whatever way God brings you.
If I could take philosophical license (is there really such a thing?) with that study note – there is something about Paul’s conversion that has always resonated with me. In Catholic grammar school I was asked to read something from the Holy Bible that I thought was important to know. I chose Acts 9 because, I said, it showed that Jesus will make sure you know what’s important…Well…so much for a fifth grader’s “keys to walking by the spirit”. But as naive as that sounds, I have always been fascinated by Acts 9 – not for the come-to-Jesus-moment of conversion – but more like a Jesus-comes-to-me-when I’m-in-a-dark-place experience – since I was already a Christian…ever since I can remember. Paul had the Old Testament…knew it like the back of his hand…he was a fervent believer…but what was absent from his belief system was Christ (which is a dark place indeed).
There were two very dark times in my life. And I believe in both instances Jesus Christ came to my rescue. The first was when I was 19 years old having a really bad acid trip. In the middle of the night – alone - in the middle of a maelstrom of frightening hallucinations, paranoia and extreme anxiety I said out loud “Jesus Christ help me” . And immediately that mental turbulence subsided.
I know - you'll probably say "that's just in your head" - and you're absolutely right .To this day I believe that was a miracle. It wasn't a spectacular tangible event - it was a quiet inner experience. Know this - It’s important to ask Jesus Christ for help.
The second dark time was at the ’86 Rock of Ages (which would be the last big TWI-event I would attend) . I think LCM was talking on stage and in the whirlpool of WWwT bedlam ( or the what-would-wierwille-think confusing way to make a decision)roaring in my head I said to myself - or maybe it was a prayer?...was it inspired by intuition?…the Holy Spirit?…Jesus Christ? I don't know...anyway …I thought to myself something along the lines of “how can we be in such a mess if this ministry has more of the rightly divided Word than any other group?” It wasn’t so much the exact question. It wasn't a spectacular experience - it was something quiet happening on the inside that others around me weren't even aware of.
It was more like flipping on a switch…engaging cognitive skills that had laid dormant for 12 years…daring to question…challenge…analyze…evaluate everything I had learned from wierwille / PFAL. Rather than having PFAL as the go-to playbook for a crisis – remember this - it’s important to ask Jesus Christ for help.
If you reread my post - the excerpts from the Rescuing the Biblebook about Paul(here) I think you might find there are many ex-Twi followers who can relate to Paul’s life-changing experience – being thrown off our high horses of PFAL-arrogancy by the almost sunlight-blinding realization that Christ was largely absent from wierwille’s ideology…his pseudo-Christian dogma should be a thing of the past...If you ask me, I think you'll get a lot farther on foot - following in the steps of Jesus Christ - than riding wierwille's high horse named PFAL.
That’s all for now folks
Edited by T-Bone Topic…subtopic…tropical…subtropical
There were two very dark times in my life. And I believe in both instances Jesus Christ came to my rescue. The first was when I was 19 years old having a really bad acid trip. In the middle of the night – alone - in the middle of a maelstrom of frightening hallucinations, paranoia and extreme anxiety I said out loud “Jesus Christ help me” . And immediately that mental turbulence subsided.
I know - you'll probably say "that's just in your head" - and you're absolutely right .To this day I believe that was a miracle. It wasn't a spectacular tangible event - it was a quiet inner experience. Know this - It’s important to ask Jesus Christ for help.
Psychedelics can be extremely effective in this way. Your experience is quite common. Though, I suspect many don't try to understand the "bad trip" by going into it and reflecting on it. The anxiety and dissonance is clutching to the ego that is trying to die; reaching for Jesus Christ is the submission to the ego death, the letting go of identification with ego, and the new identification with God - a rebirth. Not everyone gets this.
I'm not saying psychedelics are a pathway to Christ, but they can help jolt you awake from the malaise of "old man" thinking. All I'm saying is the greatest rewards come out of the hardest work through the darkest places, which is what you were saying, I think. The bad trip is worth it.
Psychedelics can be extremely effective in this way. Your experience is quite common. Though, I suspect many don't try to understand the "bad trip" by going into it and reflecting on it. The anxiety and dissonance is clutching to the ego that is trying to die; reaching for Jesus Christ is the submission to the ego death, the letting go of identification with ego, and the new identification with God - a rebirth. Not everyone gets this.
I'm not saying psychedelics are a pathway to Christ, but they can help jolt you awake from the malaise of "old man" thinking. All I'm saying is the greatest rewards come out of the hardest work through the darkest places, which is what you were saying, I think. The bad trip is worth it.
Great post all around. Thanks.
Thank you Nathan_Jr – I am in agreement with what you said !
and on a sidenote - 12 years in TWI is a ridiculously long bad acid trip "what do you think my mind looked like?" I bet it couldn't win an IQ contest
Edited by T-Bone does my editor drop acid before dropping typos?
So glorious to witness a Mike War and not be IN the damned thing.
Some passing thoughts, most if not all of which I have already expressed elsewhere.
1. The Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible is not "a" book. It's a collection of writings. As such, it lacks the cohesion and self-awareness to call itself "The Word of God." It never makes the claim. It's not even an "it"; it is a "they." Every time the Bible mentions the Word of God, it is quite clearly not referring to itself.
2. PFAL can only be "God-breathed" if PFAL is wrong about what "God-breathed" means.
3. Declaring that something has "stood the test of time," whether that thing is PFAL or the Bible, is a joke. It's only stood the test of time because "you" ignore that it has not. The more closely you look at the Bible, the more it falls apart as science, history, morality, etc.
4. There really IS a hidden message in PFAL, one I've raised numerous times. It's not that PFAL is God-breathed. It's that Wierwille concocted his entire scheme AFTER concluding that the Bible was all bunk. He no longer believed the words Holy or Bible on the cover. It was all a grift from there on out.
I tell you, the more I look at his life, the more that makes total sense.
1. The Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible is not "a" book. It's a collection of writings. As such, it lacks the cohesion and self-awareness to call itself "The Word of God." It never makes the claim. It's not even an "it"; it is a "they." Every time the Bible mentions the Word of God, it is quite clearly not referring to itself.
Im interested in hearing what youve studied. In the past few years Ive been reading a lot on the Bible's history. And it is a collection of writings that spans several thousand years by multiple authors from multiple countries. So this is me continuing to peel away my old fundie points of views. Im happy if you PM me if you feel it's out of context, start a thread in doctirnal, etc. And no, Im not trying to pick some sort of Biblical argument with you - not my style. Just continuing my quest and would love to learn some of what you have looked into. Thanks!
This morning I was reading about Paul’s conversion in Acts 9in NLT Chronological Life Application Study Bible and one of the study notes got me to reflect on a few watershed moments in my life. About Paul’s conversion the study note said sometimes God breaks into a life in a spectacular manner, and sometimes conversion is a quiet experience – the right way to come to faith in Jesus is whatever way God brings you.
If I could take philosophical license (is there really such a thing?) with that study note – there is something about Paul’s conversion that has always resonated with me. In Catholic grammar school I was asked to read something from the Holy Bible that I thought was important to know. I chose Acts 9 because, I said, it showed that Jesus will make sure you know what’s important…Well…so much for a fifth grader’s “keys to walking by the spirit”. But as naive as that sounds, I have always been fascinated by Acts 9 – not for the come-to-Jesus-moment of conversion – but more like a Jesus-comes-to-me-when I’m-in-a-dark-place experience – since I was already a Christian…ever since I can remember. Paul had the Old Testament…knew it like the back of his hand…he was a fervent believer…but what was absent from his belief system was Christ (which is a dark place indeed).
There were two very dark times in my life. And I believe in both instances Jesus Christ came to my rescue. The first was when I was 19 years old having a really bad acid trip. In the middle of the night – alone - in the middle of a maelstrom of frightening hallucinations, paranoia and extreme anxiety I said out loud “Jesus Christ help me” . And immediately that mental turbulence subsided.
I know - you'll probably say "that's just in your head" - and you're absolutely right .To this day I believe that was a miracle. It wasn't a spectacular tangible event - it was a quiet inner experience. Know this - It’s important to ask Jesus Christ for help.
The second dark time was at the ’86 Rock of Ages (which would be the last big TWI-event I would attend) . I think LCM was talking on stage and in the whirlpool of WWwT bedlam ( or the what-would-wierwille-think confusing way to make a decision)roaring in my head I said to myself - or maybe it was a prayer?...was it inspired by intuition?…the Holy Spirit?…Jesus Christ? I don't know...anyway …I thought to myself something along the lines of “how can we be in such a mess if this ministry has more of the rightly divided Word than any other group?” It wasn’t so much the exact question. It wasn't a spectacular experience - it was something quiet happening on the inside that others around me weren't even aware of.
It was more like flipping on a switch…engaging cognitive skills that had laid dormant for 12 years…daring to question…challenge…analyze…evaluate everything I had learned from wierwille / PFAL. Rather than having PFAL as the go-to playbook for a crisis – remember this - it’s important to ask Jesus Christ for help.
If you reread my post - the excerpts from the Rescuing the Biblebook about Paul(here) I think you might find there are many ex-Twi followers who can relate to Paul’s life-changing experience – being thrown off our high horses of PFAL-arrogancy by the almost sunlight-blinding realization that Christ was largely absent from wierwille’s ideology…his pseudo-Christian dogma should be a thing of the past...If you ask me, I think you'll get a lot farther on foot - following in the steps of Jesus Christ - than riding wierwille's high horse named PFAL.
That’s all for now folks
IMO the inescapable truth throughout T bones entire post here is
ask Jesus Christ for help.
He is not a transformer suit made to amplify your appendages. He is not a non entity. He is absent in person but not in spirit. He is right now seated at the right hand of God ever ready to make intercession for you.
ask Jesus Christ for help
this is an ongoing acknowledgment that you made him lord in your life. This activates the intercessor. This helps the self ego not inflate to the point you set him aside and execute your own will.
Im interested in hearing what youve studied. In the past few years Ive been reading a lot on the Bible's history. And it is a collection of writings that spans several thousand years by multiple authors from multiple countries. So this is me continuing to peel away my old fundie points of views. Im happy if you PM me if you feel it's out of context, start a thread in doctirnal, etc. And no, Im not trying to pick some sort of Biblical argument with you - not my style. Just continuing my quest and would love to learn some of what you have looked into. Thanks!
Hey OS
One thing I got into examining along these lines is the epic of Gilgamesh
Im interested in hearing what youve studied. In the past few years Ive been reading a lot on the Bible's history. And it is a collection of writings that spans several thousand years by multiple authors from multiple countries. So this is me continuing to peel away my old fundie points of views. Im happy if you PM me if you feel it's out of context, start a thread in doctirnal, etc. And no, Im not trying to pick some sort of Biblical argument with you - not my style. Just continuing my quest and would love to learn some of what you have looked into. Thanks!
The following scholars are HISTORIANS specializing in early Christianity, Second Temple Judaism, and/or the Ancient Near East. This is a small sampling.
Though they publish very serious, dense scholarly works, they also publish trade books that are accessible to non-scholars. They are all real Doctors, and they all have faith in some kind of Judeo-Christian tradition, except Ehrman, who is agnostic-atheist. I'd recommend starting with Ehrman. His writing style is extremely lucid and accessible.
Bart D. Ehrman
Elaine Pagels
James D. Tabor
Paula Fredikson
John Dominic Crossan
And if you are interested in finding meaning across other traditions and texts, like the Epic of Gilgamesh, check out Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth- Christ Jesus is included in his survey.
**Ehrman, Pagels and Tabor were conservative, fundamentalist evangelicals in their youth.
Edited by Nathan_Jr The Permissive Idiom of Editing
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
427
271
423
257
Popular Days
Feb 14
142
Oct 13
105
Jan 18
101
Oct 8
88
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 427 posts
T-Bone 271 posts
OldSkool 423 posts
Nathan_Jr 257 posts
Popular Days
Feb 14 2023
142 posts
Oct 13 2022
105 posts
Jan 18 2023
101 posts
Oct 8 2022
88 posts
Popular Posts
OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
Posted Images
chockfull
Yes TBone this reflects VPW exact mentality.
Sin so that grace may abound. Mike picks that up in his idolatry quickly.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
When Christ is absent people can act however they want with no consequence.
When He returns there will be accountability.
Not some kind of bro fest slapping backs and stories of female conquest and stealing classes for the greater good.
But in their scribe activity they sure avoid the accountability aspect of the return of Christ. Whitewash is into oblivion like the Way history. We don’t forget though and neither does the Father.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Well, it looks to me that I made some strong points on the absent Christ, so now it's time for others to bury it.
There is more that I can say about it, but I think I'll wait. This text storm has blown far away from the absent Christ now, and is just a hodge podge of attacks on me and VPW and PFAL. I am not going to try and keep up with the flood of text.
If anyone wants to get back to the topic, I will pay attention.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I did get back to the topic which is the absent Christ.
The topic is not Jeopardy with Mike on Way dispensationalism and Q and A on Mikes supposed expertise.
Hilarious how now you flip the script to a victim mentality and talk about “attacks”.
It seems the only thing attacking you here Mike is logic.
And people not accepting your re framing of the conversation in line with your idols.
Back to the shadows lol
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
“Living Word” concepts are not really unique in Christianity. Yes an interaction with and choice to follow the example of the absent Christ make the concepts in the Bible alive.
But PFAL is not the “living Word”.
It is a fundamentalist approach to a self interpreting Bible and a Pharisee hierarchy which sets hierarchical position in a cult above the body of Christ.
And forced compliant SIT.
PFAL could not be farther from a true living Word example of I Cor 12-14 which they take light years to break down in their fundamentalist examination.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
What is the Word that replaces the absent Christ? Apparently this is a very difficult and complex question!
(The Logos of the opening chapter in John is complex, esoteric, but that's not the Word I'm asking about. Unless it is, and I just don't know it yet.)
Edited by Nathan_JrLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
No, I love the logic.
It's the volume of text I have to deal with.
It's like having the worst English teacher in the world, and having homework assignments to do 5 essays per day day. It is like the "English Class from Hell." Might make a good sit-com theme, but I'm too old to handle it day after day for months at a time, hours and hours on the keyboard.
Anyway, I am happy to be allowed to post what I did. The Absent Christ is now clarified for those who want to re-read all the pages back.
I may be back to post more, if it seems like it's worth it. It is not worth it to me to do round number 413 with everyone, which is what this has degenerated to.
I've been doing this since late 2002. I deserve a break today.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Well, The Great Mystery was revealed a few years later, after Christ became absent in Acts 1:9
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Logic: The Bible is the Word of God. The Word of God replaces the absent Christ. THEREFORE, the Bible replaces the absent Christ.
Or,
Is holy spirit or the great mystery the Word that replaces the absent Christ, therefore, replaces the Bible?
Edited by Nathan_JrLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
You love the logic when it agrees with your pre determined viewpoint and idol.
However when the logic challenges your predetermined viewpoint and idol you flee.
This is fine.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Mike said: Well, it looks to me that I made some strong points on the absent Christ, so now it's time for others to bury it
T-Bone’s response: That’s odd. YOU were the one who brought up the free pass and the bad behavior of King David.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said: This text storm has blown far away from the absent Christ now, and is just a hodge podge of attacks on me and VPW and PFAL
T-Bone’s response: Would YOU please show me the specific “hodge podge” (confused mixture) of attacks on YOU , Mike ?
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said: I am not going to try and keep up with the flood of text. If anyone wants to get back to the topic, I will pay attention.
T-Bone’s response: Why do you think criticizing wierwille and PFAL is off topic?
The unchristian ideology of wierwille and PFAL is merely a subtopic of the Absent Christ? thread. A very relevant and important subtopic - I might add since it goes deep into the ramifications of his toxic ideology - that usually minimizes, marginalizes, distorts or flat-out eliminates Christ.
Mike’s responses are so predictably dodgy. He complains my post is too long (see my long post here - and note most of my post is quoting from the Bible...which I thought he would enjoy reading
) He says he doesn’t have time to deal with it.... When I boil it down to just three (count ‘em) three short questions (see my short post - here ) that are the crux of my long post, he complains it's off topic....well lookie here - you can use this post to Quantum Leap to my other posts. wow-wee-wow 
it's like a cross-reference crossfire.
Remember the feedback that I give TWI about your job performance on Grease Spot Café may affect any salary / position negotiations you are currently having with them.
That’s all for now, Mike
- try to keep up
Edited by T-Bonetoo long or too short? We need the Goldilocks editor
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
You really didn't.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Yo...Mike...u gonna answer?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
He actually already did in a response to me about 11 hrs ago. It seems the answer to your question is "yes," but it's not the Bible, apparently.... WTAF am I saying!!! My head is about to explode with this word salad!
Mike:
"I mentioned that the phrase "the Bible" is very ambiguous.|
Before I can answer this I you need to specify what you mean EXACTLY for every occurance of the word Bible in your post, before I can answer it in a timely manner. Otherwise I will have to ask you for each one what you mean.
*/*/*/*/*
We started this in a specific section of doctrine and now it is had drifted a bit.
Let's start all over for a minute, going back to how the Word originally got here.
God found a man who could hear Him due to diligently seeking Him. What God spoke to this man is the Word. That man tells others in love. Eventually, the man to whom God spoke tells others in written form. These kinds of writings accumulate over time. Young Jesus feeds off them. He learns them well, and then perfectly, and then shows us the Father as we see him. He is the Word made flesh. Now we get to do the same, and God will help us. It is a matter of WHO do you love. If you seek the Word of God with all your heart, then act on it. Minister what you know to others in love, like Jesus did. God will help you. Good night, sir."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
And that's exactly how I used to be...so I can empathize with Mike. He probably feels he has thrown all these devil possessed people into spiritual discomfiture with what he's saying. I was way disciple twice and I was the same in my reasoning...just not as deluded. Had I kept drinking the pflap Kool aid though...yeah. I had to learn critical thinking skills after my exit from tei in 2008.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
This morning I was reading about Paul’s conversion in Acts 9 in NLT Chronological Life Application Study Bible and one of the study notes got me to reflect on a few watershed moments in my life. About Paul’s conversion the study note said sometimes God breaks into a life in a spectacular manner, and sometimes conversion is a quiet experience – the right way to come to faith in Jesus is whatever way God brings you.
If I could take philosophical license (is there really such a thing?
) with that study note – there is something about Paul’s conversion that has always resonated with me. In Catholic grammar school I was asked to read something from the Holy Bible that I thought was important to know. I chose Acts 9 because, I said, it showed that Jesus will make sure you know what’s important…Well…so much for a fifth grader’s “keys to walking by the spirit”. 
But as naive as that sounds, I have always been fascinated by Acts 9 – not for the come-to-Jesus-moment of conversion – but more like a Jesus-comes-to-me-when I’m-in-a-dark-place experience – since I was already a Christian…ever since I can remember. Paul had the Old Testament…knew it like the back of his hand…he was a fervent believer…but what was absent from his belief system was Christ (which is a dark place indeed).
There were two very dark times in my life. And I believe in both instances Jesus Christ came to my rescue. The first was when I was 19 years old having a really bad acid trip. In the middle of the night – alone - in the middle of a maelstrom of frightening hallucinations, paranoia and extreme anxiety I said out loud “Jesus Christ help me” . And immediately that mental turbulence subsided.
I know - you'll probably say "that's just in your head" - and you're absolutely right
.To this day I believe that was a miracle. It wasn't a spectacular tangible event - it was a quiet inner experience. Know this - It’s important to ask Jesus Christ for help.
The second dark time was at the ’86 Rock of Ages (which would be the last big TWI-event I would attend) . I think LCM was talking on stage and in the whirlpool of WWwT bedlam ( or the what-would-wierwille-think confusing way to make a decision ) roaring in my head I said to myself - or maybe it was a prayer?...was it inspired by intuition?…the Holy Spirit?…Jesus Christ? I don't know...anyway …I thought to myself something along the lines of “how can we be in such a mess if this ministry has more of the rightly divided Word than any other group?” It wasn’t so much the exact question. It wasn't a spectacular experience - it was something quiet happening on the inside that others around me weren't even aware of.
It was more like flipping on a switch…engaging cognitive skills that had laid dormant for 12 years…daring to question…challenge…analyze…evaluate everything I had learned from wierwille / PFAL. Rather than having PFAL as the go-to playbook for a crisis – remember this - it’s important to ask Jesus Christ for help.
If you reread my post - the excerpts from the Rescuing the Bible book about Paul ( here ) I think you might find there are many ex-Twi followers who can relate to Paul’s life-changing experience – being thrown off our high horses of PFAL-arrogancy by the almost sunlight-blinding realization that Christ was largely absent from wierwille’s ideology…his pseudo-Christian dogma should be a thing of the past...If you ask me, I think you'll get a lot farther on foot - following in the steps of Jesus Christ - than riding wierwille's high horse named PFAL.
That’s all for now folks
Edited by T-BoneTopic…subtopic…tropical…subtropical
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Psychedelics can be extremely effective in this way. Your experience is quite common. Though, I suspect many don't try to understand the "bad trip" by going into it and reflecting on it. The anxiety and dissonance is clutching to the ego that is trying to die; reaching for Jesus Christ is the submission to the ego death, the letting go of identification with ego, and the new identification with God - a rebirth. Not everyone gets this.
I'm not saying psychedelics are a pathway to Christ, but they can help jolt you awake from the malaise of "old man" thinking. All I'm saying is the greatest rewards come out of the hardest work through the darkest places, which is what you were saying, I think. The bad trip is worth it.
Great post all around. Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Thank you Nathan_Jr – I am in agreement with what you said !
and on a sidenote - 12 years in TWI is a ridiculously long bad acid trip "what do you think my mind looked like?" I bet it couldn't win an IQ contest
Edited by T-Bonedoes my editor drop acid before dropping typos?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
So glorious to witness a Mike War and not be IN the damned thing.
Some passing thoughts, most if not all of which I have already expressed elsewhere.
1. The Bible is not the Word of God. The Bible is not "a" book. It's a collection of writings. As such, it lacks the cohesion and self-awareness to call itself "The Word of God." It never makes the claim. It's not even an "it"; it is a "they." Every time the Bible mentions the Word of God, it is quite clearly not referring to itself.
2. PFAL can only be "God-breathed" if PFAL is wrong about what "God-breathed" means.
3. Declaring that something has "stood the test of time," whether that thing is PFAL or the Bible, is a joke. It's only stood the test of time because "you" ignore that it has not. The more closely you look at the Bible, the more it falls apart as science, history, morality, etc.
4. There really IS a hidden message in PFAL, one I've raised numerous times. It's not that PFAL is God-breathed. It's that Wierwille concocted his entire scheme AFTER concluding that the Bible was all bunk. He no longer believed the words Holy or Bible on the cover. It was all a grift from there on out.
I tell you, the more I look at his life, the more that makes total sense.
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I wish I had enough sense to stay on the sidelines...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Im interested in hearing what youve studied. In the past few years Ive been reading a lot on the Bible's history. And it is a collection of writings that spans several thousand years by multiple authors from multiple countries. So this is me continuing to peel away my old fundie points of views. Im happy if you PM me if you feel it's out of context, start a thread in doctirnal, etc. And no, Im not trying to pick some sort of Biblical argument with you - not my style. Just continuing my quest and would love to learn some of what you have looked into. Thanks!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
IMO the inescapable truth throughout T bones entire post here is
ask Jesus Christ for help.
He is not a transformer suit made to amplify your appendages. He is not a non entity. He is absent in person but not in spirit. He is right now seated at the right hand of God ever ready to make intercession for you.
ask Jesus Christ for help
this is an ongoing acknowledgment that you made him lord in your life. This activates the intercessor. This helps the self ego not inflate to the point you set him aside and execute your own will.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Hey OS
One thing I got into examining along these lines is the epic of Gilgamesh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh
It is not the Bible. It is not spiritual truth. It is a story constructed by many people over time.
How does this help? To me tangentially.
And it’s a cool story. Yes off topic don’t mod me dudes lol.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
The following scholars are HISTORIANS specializing in early Christianity, Second Temple Judaism, and/or the Ancient Near East. This is a small sampling.
Though they publish very serious, dense scholarly works, they also publish trade books that are accessible to non-scholars. They are all real Doctors, and they all have faith in some kind of Judeo-Christian tradition, except Ehrman, who is agnostic-atheist. I'd recommend starting with Ehrman. His writing style is extremely lucid and accessible.
Bart D. Ehrman
Elaine Pagels
James D. Tabor
Paula Fredikson
John Dominic Crossan
And if you are interested in finding meaning across other traditions and texts, like the Epic of Gilgamesh, check out Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth - Christ Jesus is included in his survey.
**Ehrman, Pagels and Tabor were conservative, fundamentalist evangelicals in their youth.
Edited by Nathan_JrThe Permissive Idiom of Editing
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.