Mike: Ive never said that every single thing that wierwille ever said is wrong. There's a lot of things he had right. It's just that the things that are wrong are both subtle and grevious. Anywho.
I can agree with that.
But I do not believe any of those mistakes of his ever made it into the collaterals.
I have had Corps people sometimes swear that VPW said or did something in their presence that would have to be wrong. He had sin; he could be very VERY wrong in private Corps settings. But there were other people with spirit working with him in refining it all down to the collaterals.
But I do not believe any of those mistakes of his ever made it into the collaterals.
Nice flame bait, there, sir Troll-A-Lot. But the topic is the absent Christ? Go start a thread about the accuracy of the collaterals. Thats been going on here for years....heck just bump one up from the dead.
I think people who have a relationship with Christ - the ones who know him and not just about him - would have no interest in staying long or at all if they were approached by someone in twi. Since they would already be experiencing Christ's love, they wouldn't be so susceptible to all the "love bombing." And if they were in the habit of checking with Christ before making decisions, I doubt very much that Christ would give them the go ahead to hang out with this group. So they were the safe ones.
That leaves people who either don't know Christ at all or if they do, didn't have Christ dwelling in their hearts in which case I think it would be difficult for him to warn them away from twi. Instead, they could easily be attracted to what twi offered and once hooked, remain for a long time. I was one of those people. The off-putting part was that I did think God had led me to twi because I was messed up and was seeking His help. But then again, because of my Catholic upbringing, all I knew about God was how guilty I felt around Him all the time. That's where the love bombing and twi's definition of standing righteous before God sucked me in big time.
Thanks for the response, Charity.
I get the idea, or at least I see supported, TWI promised relief from some other condition that was present.
Do you think the "The Absent Christ" phrase conjures up some sort of longing in people's minds?
Yes, that part of Jesus knocking is future. He is willing to wait on the personal visits. The Christ in us relationship is not trivial; it is superior to the personal part.
I loved your link; easy to read aroung the trinity part.
Did you see the blue quotes I posted from OMSW. In one Jesus is depicted as pretty busy right now with extreme needs in the body. Please check out what VPW said on this topic in 1985, when no one was listening to him.
What future are you talking about? Is this after Christ comes to gather the church together to meet him in the air? If so, why would Christ be disciplining them and giving them a chance to repent - wouldn't it be too late for them by this time? His invitation to sup with them and they with him is totally dependent on them hearing his voice and opening the door. Would that be something he would offer the church in Laodicea after the gathering together? I think his invitation is an incentive for them to repent before he comes to gather them.
I didn't mention the context for Rev 3:20 before because I wanted to keep the post short. But here it is now.
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.17You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.18**I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.22Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
** "I counsel you" is in the present indicative active - The fact that it is the present tense means it is happening now. The indicative is a mood of assertion or presentation of certainty (a fact). The active voice occurs when the action is being performed by the subject (who is Christ). I don't see anything futuristic about these verses.
I get the idea, or at least I see supported, TWI promised relief from some other condition that was present.
Do you think the "The Absent Christ" phrase conjures up some sort of longing in people's minds?
That is some earthshaking insight, Bolshevik!
at least for me
thats probably one of the biggest reasons I took the class and stuck around
PFAL and TWI as the platform held such promise for me - “the Word” filling in for the absent Christ until He returns.
man, what a let down
but my attitude has changed for the better since I left the controlling cult - and learning about and exploring the dynamic quadruple principle the Father > the Son > the Holy Spirit > me
yeah realistically speaking it can be a downer trapped in the space-time continuum but I feel the transcendence/ immanence feature of the Godhead makes things bearable for now.
I get the idea, or at least I see supported, TWI promised relief from some other condition that was present.
Do you think the "The Absent Christ" phrase conjures up some sort of longing in people's minds?
For me no for three reasons: 1. After taking the pfal class, I don't remember hearing the phrase, the Absent Christ, often enough for me to notice he was absent. 2. I was too busy noticing what twi was telling me I needed to believe and do. 3. I felt I was a good believer because I did most of the things I was told I needed to do. The only reason I didn't go into the Corps when I wanted to was because I was too nervous about asking people to sponsor me.
So basically the only longing in my mind was to carry out #3. Now for people like Mike who opening talk about the Absent Christ, they don't seem to miss him because they have the word and the ministry of reconciliation to replace the absent Christ. (see #2).
For me no for three reasons: 1. After taking the pfal class, I don't remember hearing the phrase, the Absent Christ, often enough for me to notice he was absent. 2. I was too busy noticing what twi was telling me I needed to believe and do. 3. I felt I was a good believer because I did most of the things I was told I needed to do. The only reason I didn't go into the Corps when I wanted to was because I was too nervous about asking people to sponsor me.
So basically the only longing in my mind was to carry out #3. Now for people like Mike who opening talk about the Absent Christ, they don't seem to miss him because they have the word and the ministry of reconciliation to replace the absent Christ. (see #2).
I think of when people stopped going to fellowship after years of going. How much time was given to wonder what happened? I remember direction to feel hurt, by their betrayal. Not their absence.
If a loved one died? They're just sleeping. Carry on.
Some people never feel the presence of others. And that makes the sting of absence impossible for them to feel.
To feel the void is to feel existential pain, wouldn't that be?
Ideology is often used to fill a void. The busywork of "the ministry" and the intellectual farce of "the word" numbs self awareness, and the acknowledgement of the void.
thats probably one of the biggest reasons I took the class and stuck around
PFAL and TWI as the platform held such promise for me - “the Word” filling in for the absent Christ until He returns.
man, what a let down
but my attitude has changed for the better since I left the controlling cult - and learning about and exploring the dynamic quadruple principle the Father > the Son > the Holy Spirit > me
yeah realistically speaking it can be a downer trapped in the space-time continuum but I feel the transcendence/ immanence feature of the Godhead makes things bearable for now.
Christ left, ascended, transfigured, flew off on a magic cloud for a reason, so The Comforter would come.
Why? I dunno.
The disciples staring up into the sky makes me think they were feeling a loss. Sounds like they enjoyed his presence. An angel had to nudge them to keep going.
10 days later something, or someone else, was sent. Here's Jesus, then take him away, now here's The Comforter. What's happening here?
The Comforter takes the place of The Absent Christ? No, people still want Jesus back.
The Comforter is an interesting name. Comforting what? Who? How? Why?
Thanks Mike.... for acknowledging my post. You "passed the test."
Steps to take to further discussion.
Read one another's post. Don't read into it.
The post says what it means.... and means what it says.
Two-way communication opens doors for understanding.
No need to be defensive or evasive. We are simply communicating.
Facts and opinions are exchanged with view towards better understanding.
As per Will Roger's quote: "Everyone is ignorant, just on different subjects."
Healthy discussion and vibrant debate is in the DNA of the fabric of society.
Personal attacks are not welcomed.... but healthy discussion is.
There is learning whenever two opposing viewpoints collide.
Some of our greatest inventions and theories were garnered by vigorous discussions.
Have a great day, Mike.
~~~~~
2 hours ago, Mike said:
11. Stop long detailed personal attacks, that require tons of homework to read, defend, and show how stupidly inaccurate they are.
12. Stop projecting that every counterpoint disagreement is a personal attack on you.
13. Learning how to add substance or counter facts and viewpoints is something learned in High School Debate Clubs.... not something a person should be struggling with in their 60's.
14. What is causing you to do "tons of homework" in a discussion forum? Could it possibly be that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?
Just to clear something up: I don't "agree with Mike," per se. I see where Wierwille is coming from and submit that he has a point. Whether that point outweighs the points you guys raise in opposition to it is really up to each individual believer (or unbeliever) to decide (though believers are the only ones who have an actual stake in the answer). I decline to accept Mike as a frame of reference for my viewpoint here because I come to my point of view independent of his arguments.
That is: I see Wierwille's point because I believe there is evidence to support it. I accept that there is also evidence to contradict it, and I can live with those contradictions because I accept contradictions as an attribute of the scriptures.
Mike sees Wierwille's point because Wierwille can say the moon is made of green cheese and, as long as it was written in a PFAL collateral, Mike would accept it and dodge, distract, deny, etc if anyone told him it was objectively bulls hit.
Wierwille was a con man. He saw the absent Christ in the scriptures and exploited it for his own gain. He exploited LOTS of things he saw in the scriptures for his own gain. Why should the physical absence of Christ and the future hope of his presence be any different?
I accept that Mike and I are in agreement that there is a Biblical justification for the use of the term "absent Christ," but to say I "agree with Mike" is a bit misleading without the context that I still think he and Wierwille are absolutely full of solid excrement.
. . (though believers are the only ones who have an actual stake in the answer). . .
False . . unless the argument is The Bible and Christianity have nothing to do with the development of modern civilization and thought . . . it appeared in spite of it
Just to clear something up: I don't "agree with Mike," per se. I see where Wierwille is coming from and submit that he has a point. Whether that point outweighs the points you guys raise in opposition to it is really up to each individual believer (or unbeliever) to decide (though believers are the only ones who have an actual stake in the answer). I decline to accept Mike as a frame of reference for my viewpoint here because I come to my point of view independent of his arguments.
That is: I see Wierwille's point because I believe there is evidence to support it. I accept that there is also evidence to contradict it, and I can live with those contradictions because I accept contradictions as an attribute of the scriptures.
Mike sees Wierwille's point because Wierwille can say the moon is made of green cheese and, as long as it was written in a PFAL collateral, Mike would accept it and dodge, distract, deny, etc if anyone told him it was objectively bulls hit.
Wierwille was a con man. He saw the absent Christ in the scriptures and exploited it for his own gain. He exploited LOTS of things he saw in the scriptures for his own gain. Why should the physical absence of Christ and the future hope of his presence be any different?
I accept that Mike and I are in agreement that there is a Biblical justification for the use of the term "absent Christ," but to say I "agree with Mike" is a bit misleading without the context that I still think he and Wierwille are absolutely full of solid excrement.
No offense, Mike.
By saying you see Wierwille's point you are giving VPW credence.
Did he even understand this "point"? Is there evidence for that?
I doubt it. He was a plagiarist. A mimic.
He did not have the faculty to see the story behind the words. Mike hasn't demonstrated that ability either.
By saying you see Wierwille's point you are giving VPW credence.
Did he even understand this "point"? Is there evidence for that?
I doubt it. He was a plagiarist. A mimic.
He did not have the faculty to see the story behind the words. Mike hasn't demonstrated that ability either.
The concept is not totally without merit in scripture. However, it's the way in which wierwille capitilized on the concept, to promote himself as some great one, the entire time making Christ absent from his ministry, and forbidding interaction between followers and their savior. Scripture clearly shows copious interaction between Christ and his followers in Acts and we are told to let Christ into our lives as T-Bone once more demonstrated from scripture. Let him into our lives and not make him absent to us personally.
In 2 Corinthins 5 our earthly house of this tabernacle refers to our current physical, carbon based bodies. Paul is indicating his desire to be changed into what we will all be changed to in the future: A body that doesn't die, get sick, etc. One like Jesus Christ currently has. We are the ones absent from Christ in the sense that we are flesh and blood and he is not and is in the heavenlies with God. This is rather obvious, and not to answser for Raf, seems to be the point people agree on that wierwille stated but then morphed into an anti-Christ doctrine; making Christ absent in his Lordship and function as head of the body. Thus, there are points of accord along the way. I feel it was typical of wierwille to speak on things he didnt REALLY understand and morph his own doctrine based on his twisted concepts.
Raf will answer on his own, or not, but even though you weren't directly addressing me I still thought my two cents may offer some insight...maybe not..
2 Corinthians 5:1-8
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I get the idea, or at least I see supported, TWI promised relief from some other condition that was present.
In my experience they promised relief for a condition that was NOT present, an imagined condition projected on the targets of their proselytizing.
When I first encountered all of this madness, my life was full of joy, peace, wonder, prosperity, healings..."manifestations" that can't be counterfeited.
But they persisted with the relentless, if subtle, claim that I was lacking something, that I was incomplete without taking "the class," incomplete without "having" their contrived truth, that I was without REAL "power" until I heard and revered what "the doctor" had to say, that so much was "available" for me, but I was leaving it on the table "untapped."
Tell someone enough times they are missing something BIG, they will start to believe it, in spite of the evidence against the claim. This is called gaslighting. Gaslighting is the most wicked abuse.
The concept is not totally without merit in scripture. However, it's the way in which wierwille capitilized on the concept, to promote himself as some great one, the entire time making Christ absent from his ministry, and forbidding interaction between followers and their savior. Scripture clearly shows copious interaction between Christ and his followers in Acts and we are told to let Christ into our lives as T-Bone once more demonstrated from scripture. Let him into our lives and not make him absent to us personally.
In 2 Corinthins 5 our earthly house of this tabernacle refers to our current physical, carbon based bodies. Paul is indicating his desire to be changed into what we will all be changed to in the future: A body that doesn't die, get sick, etc. One like Jesus Christ currently has. We are the ones absent from Christ in the sense that we are flesh and blood and he is not and is in the heavenlies with God. This is rather obvious, and not to answser for Raf, seems to be the point people agree on that wierwille stated but then morphed into an anti-Christ doctrine; making Christ absent in his Lordship and function as head of the body. Thus, there are points of accord along the way. I feel it was typical of wierwille to speak on things he didnt REALLY understand and morph his own doctrine based on his twisted concepts.
Raf will answer on his own, or not, but even though you weren't directly addressing me I still thought my two cents may offer some insight...maybe not..
2 Corinthians 5:1-8
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I agree with Raf on the point Wierwille could have picked up "Lord of The Rings" and built his cult around that, conceptually speaking.
But, Wierwille was too stupid to understand mythology behind "Lord of The Rings" . . .
Wierwille only said things to get people to have thoughts people in their own minds they would be drawn to. He never made a point. Seduction doesn't need a point.
Wierwille does not need to understand what he is saying . . . and neither did the follower.
Wierwille only said things to get people to have thoughts people in their own minds they would be drawn to. He never made a point. Seduction doesn't need a point.
Wierwille does not need to understand what he is saying . . . and neither did the follower.
The subtle difference between bull$hit and deception.
In my experience they promised relief for a condition that was NOT present, an imagined condition projected on the targets of their proselytizing.
When I first encountered all of this madness, my life was full of joy, peace, wonder, prosperity, healings..."manifestations" that can't be counterfeited.
But they persisted with the relentless, if subtle, claim that I was lacking something, that I was incomplete without taking "the class," incomplete without "having" their contrived truth, that I was without REAL "power" until I heard and revered what "the doctor" had to say, that so much was "available" for me, but I was leaving it on the table "untapped."
Tell someone enough times they are missing something BIG, they will start to believe it, in spite of the evidence against the claim. This is called gaslighting. Gaslighting is the most wicked abuse.
. . . insecurity is a condition that would be present . . . that could have been present before an encounter with TWI . . . or induced as you are saying . . .
like the kids game, "Are you mad?" "No" "Are you mad?" "No" "Are you mad?" "No" "Are you mad?" "NO!" "See, you're mad"
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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Mike
I can agree with that.
But I do not believe any of those mistakes of his ever made it into the collaterals.
I have had Corps people sometimes swear that VPW said or did something in their presence that would have to be wrong. He had sin; he could be very VERY wrong in private Corps settings. But there were other people with spirit working with him in refining it all down to the collaterals.
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So_crates
You made the topic you when you answered Skyrider's post complaining about "personal attacks."
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OldSkool
You make it about you.
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OldSkool
No it isnt. Its present day, right now. What happened to the Word of God being an eternal now?
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OldSkool
Nice flame bait, there, sir Troll-A-Lot. But the topic is the absent Christ? Go start a thread about the accuracy of the collaterals. Thats been going on here for years....heck just bump one up from the dead.
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Bolshevik
Thanks for the response, Charity.
I get the idea, or at least I see supported, TWI promised relief from some other condition that was present.
Do you think the "The Absent Christ" phrase conjures up some sort of longing in people's minds?
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Charity
What future are you talking about? Is this after Christ comes to gather the church together to meet him in the air? If so, why would Christ be disciplining them and giving them a chance to repent - wouldn't it be too late for them by this time? His invitation to sup with them and they with him is totally dependent on them hearing his voice and opening the door. Would that be something he would offer the church in Laodicea after the gathering together? I think his invitation is an incentive for them to repent before he comes to gather them.
I didn't mention the context for Rev 3:20 before because I wanted to keep the post short. But here it is now.
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 **I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
** "I counsel you" is in the present indicative active - The fact that it is the present tense means it is happening now. The indicative is a mood of assertion or presentation of certainty (a fact). The active voice occurs when the action is being performed by the subject (who is Christ). I don't see anything futuristic about these verses.
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T-Bone
That is some earthshaking insight, Bolshevik!
at least for me
thats probably one of the biggest reasons I took the class and stuck around
PFAL and TWI as the platform held such promise for me - “the Word” filling in for the absent Christ until He returns.
man, what a let down
but my attitude has changed for the better since I left the controlling cult - and learning about and exploring the dynamic quadruple principle the Father > the Son > the Holy Spirit > me
yeah realistically speaking it can be a downer trapped in the space-time continuum but I feel the transcendence/ immanence feature of the Godhead makes things bearable for now.
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Charity
For me no for three reasons: 1. After taking the pfal class, I don't remember hearing the phrase, the Absent Christ, often enough for me to notice he was absent. 2. I was too busy noticing what twi was telling me I needed to believe and do. 3. I felt I was a good believer because I did most of the things I was told I needed to do. The only reason I didn't go into the Corps when I wanted to was because I was too nervous about asking people to sponsor me.
So basically the only longing in my mind was to carry out #3. Now for people like Mike who opening talk about the Absent Christ, they don't seem to miss him because they have the word and the ministry of reconciliation to replace the absent Christ. (see #2).
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waysider
The collaterals take the place of the absent Wierwille.
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Bolshevik
Fahrenheit 451?
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Bolshevik
I think of when people stopped going to fellowship after years of going. How much time was given to wonder what happened? I remember direction to feel hurt, by their betrayal. Not their absence.
If a loved one died? They're just sleeping. Carry on.
Some people never feel the presence of others. And that makes the sting of absence impossible for them to feel.
To feel the void is to feel existential pain, wouldn't that be?
Ideology is often used to fill a void. The busywork of "the ministry" and the intellectual farce of "the word" numbs self awareness, and the acknowledgement of the void.
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Bolshevik
Christ left, ascended, transfigured, flew off on a magic cloud for a reason, so The Comforter would come.
Why? I dunno.
The disciples staring up into the sky makes me think they were feeling a loss. Sounds like they enjoyed his presence. An angel had to nudge them to keep going.
10 days later something, or someone else, was sent. Here's Jesus, then take him away, now here's The Comforter. What's happening here?
The Comforter takes the place of The Absent Christ? No, people still want Jesus back.
The Comforter is an interesting name. Comforting what? Who? How? Why?
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skyrider
~~~~~
12. Stop projecting that every counterpoint disagreement is a personal attack on you.
13. Learning how to add substance or counter facts and viewpoints is something learned in High School Debate Clubs.... not something a person should be struggling with in their 60's.
14. What is causing you to do "tons of homework" in a discussion forum? Could it possibly be that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?
.
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Nathan_Jr
"Homework" and "glove fitting" -- there are folders for those.
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Raf
Just to clear something up: I don't "agree with Mike," per se. I see where Wierwille is coming from and submit that he has a point. Whether that point outweighs the points you guys raise in opposition to it is really up to each individual believer (or unbeliever) to decide (though believers are the only ones who have an actual stake in the answer). I decline to accept Mike as a frame of reference for my viewpoint here because I come to my point of view independent of his arguments.
That is: I see Wierwille's point because I believe there is evidence to support it. I accept that there is also evidence to contradict it, and I can live with those contradictions because I accept contradictions as an attribute of the scriptures.
Mike sees Wierwille's point because Wierwille can say the moon is made of green cheese and, as long as it was written in a PFAL collateral, Mike would accept it and dodge, distract, deny, etc if anyone told him it was objectively bulls hit.
Wierwille was a con man. He saw the absent Christ in the scriptures and exploited it for his own gain. He exploited LOTS of things he saw in the scriptures for his own gain. Why should the physical absence of Christ and the future hope of his presence be any different?
I accept that Mike and I are in agreement that there is a Biblical justification for the use of the term "absent Christ," but to say I "agree with Mike" is a bit misleading without the context that I still think he and Wierwille are absolutely full of solid excrement.
No offense, Mike.
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Bolshevik
False . . unless the argument is The Bible and Christianity have nothing to do with the development of modern civilization and thought . . . it appeared in spite of it
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Bolshevik
By saying you see Wierwille's point you are giving VPW credence.
Did he even understand this "point"? Is there evidence for that?
I doubt it. He was a plagiarist. A mimic.
He did not have the faculty to see the story behind the words. Mike hasn't demonstrated that ability either.
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OldSkool
The concept is not totally without merit in scripture. However, it's the way in which wierwille capitilized on the concept, to promote himself as some great one, the entire time making Christ absent from his ministry, and forbidding interaction between followers and their savior. Scripture clearly shows copious interaction between Christ and his followers in Acts and we are told to let Christ into our lives as T-Bone once more demonstrated from scripture. Let him into our lives and not make him absent to us personally.
In 2 Corinthins 5 our earthly house of this tabernacle refers to our current physical, carbon based bodies. Paul is indicating his desire to be changed into what we will all be changed to in the future: A body that doesn't die, get sick, etc. One like Jesus Christ currently has. We are the ones absent from Christ in the sense that we are flesh and blood and he is not and is in the heavenlies with God. This is rather obvious, and not to answser for Raf, seems to be the point people agree on that wierwille stated but then morphed into an anti-Christ doctrine; making Christ absent in his Lordship and function as head of the body. Thus, there are points of accord along the way. I feel it was typical of wierwille to speak on things he didnt REALLY understand and morph his own doctrine based on his twisted concepts.
Raf will answer on his own, or not, but even though you weren't directly addressing me I still thought my two cents may offer some insight...maybe not..
2 Corinthians 5:1-8
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
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Nathan_Jr
In my experience they promised relief for a condition that was NOT present, an imagined condition projected on the targets of their proselytizing.
When I first encountered all of this madness, my life was full of joy, peace, wonder, prosperity, healings..."manifestations" that can't be counterfeited.
But they persisted with the relentless, if subtle, claim that I was lacking something, that I was incomplete without taking "the class," incomplete without "having" their contrived truth, that I was without REAL "power" until I heard and revered what "the doctor" had to say, that so much was "available" for me, but I was leaving it on the table "untapped."
Tell someone enough times they are missing something BIG, they will start to believe it, in spite of the evidence against the claim. This is called gaslighting. Gaslighting is the most wicked abuse.
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Bolshevik
I agree with Raf on the point Wierwille could have picked up "Lord of The Rings" and built his cult around that, conceptually speaking.
But, Wierwille was too stupid to understand mythology behind "Lord of The Rings" . . .
Wierwille only said things to get people to have thoughts people in their own minds they would be drawn to. He never made a point. Seduction doesn't need a point.
Wierwille does not need to understand what he is saying . . . and neither did the follower.
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Nathan_Jr
The subtle difference between bull$hit and deception.
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Bolshevik
. . . insecurity is a condition that would be present . . . that could have been present before an encounter with TWI . . . or induced as you are saying . . .
like the kids game, "Are you mad?" "No" "Are you mad?" "No" "Are you mad?" "No" "Are you mad?" "NO!" "See, you're mad"
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Bolshevik
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me thousands of times over decades and decades . . .
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