"I think his old-man nature was completely contrary to what he really was and what he did when he was in fellowship. When he was in fellowship he did great things for us. THAT is what I prefer to focus on and magnify.
Focus on his old man nature and he was a failure.
Focus on his new man nature and he was a success."
skyrider:
"When was wierwille "in fellowship?"
When was wierwille's "new man nature" evident?"
"Since you asserted wierwille's new man nature was evident and he did great things when he was "in fellowship with God"..... I would like some examples of this. Can you elaborate?
If it was SO EVIDENT..... then you must have DOZENS of examples."
Mike:
"It's mostly in the written works, but recorded teachings and personal appearances helped also. My life was benefited greatly; still is. "
skyrider:
"Another evasive answer, at best. "
WordWolf: No, it tells us a lot. It tells us that, when all is said and done, the BEST that Mike can cite about what vpw did, the biggest impact made on anybody's life in a POSITIVE way, was in the Bible teachings, homilies, sermons, books, etc. Those were the "great" things Mike's got to offer.
So Crates:
"So you're saying Saint Vic was most in fellowship when he was being a phony, being hypocritical, and when he was ripping off other people's work. SMH. "
skyrider:
"TRANSLATION: Mike makes these grandiose declarations about wierwille's life and "greatness"..... but then gives evasive replies to back up wierwille's new man nature in Christ. This evasiveness has all the hallmarks of a snake oil representative selling a product from a snake oil company. Always barking bold assertions of wierwille's wares, but only in the shadowy form of generalities. Pfffttt."
I have seen a few grads go off the deep end carrying on conversations with Jesus in front of others to show off their tight relationship. You think I've got mental problems? LoL
(snip)
Mike:
"Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.
He told me so."
WordWolf: Well, Mike, since you've brought it up, I think your mental health isn't all it should be.
Your nasty descriptions of me are not counted in my mulling over the ideas we are supposed to be discussing. They just tell me you have run out of material on the topic(s).
Nasty descriptions of you?
Mike, when you continue to agitate, stir conflict and refuse to engage those who challenge your statements and hypothesis....AND you get called on the carpet for it.....THAT is not "nasty descriptions of you." Why is it that you continuously make these bold [false] declarations of wierwille's writings knowing that he heavily plagiarized throughout his whole life?
Why is it that you immediately run for cover and play the "victim card" whenever someone challenges your statements? You see, Mike.... you can't have it BOTH WAYS. You cannot come to GSC and make these false assertions without being challenged. All of this is antithetical to a discussion forum where facts, opinions and judgments are volleyed back and forth to further understanding.
5 hours ago, Rocky said:
1) How is any of this quoted section FURTHERING discussion?
2) "We are supposed to WAIT..." ???
3) Did you take Skyrider's suggestion at all (yet) to consider how you're apparently acting as a provocateur?
How has your "contribution" to GSC discussion over now more than two decades furthered ANYone's understanding of God? Has ANYone provided written feedback on GSC to indicate or suggest your comments have been helpful in any way?
Mike, you first posted on GSC on December 27, 2002 with a preaching pronouncement entitled "Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 years!" That thread alone expanded to 43 pages.
After more than two decades of posting, I have long passed the threshold of giving you the benefit of doubt and surmise that you come to GSC for the sole satisfaction of CONFLICT. You like to agitate others. You seem to gain a sense of purpose by stirring the pot of conflicting statements for self gain [mental superiority over others]. And, although the vast majority disagrees with your statements... you are undeterred to keep coming back for more conflict.
When it becomes abundantly obvious that your declarations are wrong and absurd... you use the evasive tactic of avoidance. You, instead, just move on to another conflicting statement or teaching. At no time, do you stop and reflect on your position. Why? Because in your mind.... you are right and all others are wrong.
You are like a castaway on an island of your own making.
Mike can't handle this topic from scripture. All he keeps doing is quoting wierwille or way magazines...as if any of that is authoritative. Once again...copious example of interaction between Christ and those in his body from scripture...and I betcha Mike still will dance around it all.
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are inblue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father,and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
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Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
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Continuing onwards: 2/1
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Here we see that Paul received his ministry FROM Jesus Christ and not directly from God, sidestepping Jesus as absent.
Acts 22:6-11
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto theground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth,whom thou persecutest.
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard notthe voice of him that spake to me.
10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which areappointed for thee to do.
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
In Acts 22:9 we see that those with Paul heard not the voice but saw the light that shone around them. Acts 9:7 says his companions heard a voice but saw no man. Acts 22:9 doesnt contradict Acts 9:7 but givesmore insight into Paul's conversation with the non-absent Christ.
God's Word Translation:
Acts 22:9
"The men who were with me saw the light but didn't understand what the person who was speaking to me said. Perhaps they didnt understand Hebrew.
So, again we see that Jesus Christ interacted directly with Paul and his prescence was known by Paul's travel companions but they did not understand what was said to Paul. Interesting.
Acts 22:13-15
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:13-15 we see again another few tidbits added into the record of Acts 9 where Ananias ministered to Paul at Jesus direct request. Here we see that God chose Paul. This again shows that Jesus and God are one in will and purpose. The Lord Jesus does what God wants done to the letter, but it is Christ performing the various functions and requests in his ascended, exalted, Lordship.
Acts 22:16-21
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
17And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
In Acts 22:17-21 we see that Jesus gives Paul yet another vision and a conversational one at that. Jesus Christ is directing Paul, showing once again that Christ directly controls the affairs of the Church according to God's will and at times that direction may happen through direct communication with Christ.
Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.”
Here Jesus Christ stood by Paul, whether in a vision, or literally I dont know. But either way once again we see the intimate fellowship and encouragement. It;s likely that Paul realised how bad he effed up and the Lord knew he needed to be strengthned. Where in scripture does it ever say that Jesus Christ cannot appear to someone physically on earth as God directs?
Acts 26:12-18
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
So here we have yet another record of what happened in Acts 9 where the Lord appeared unto Saul. Perhaps his travel companions did not understand Hebrew and that's why they didnt understand what Jesus said but heard the voice just the same.
Acts 27:21-25
But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Here we see an Angel of God to tell Paul that they would all survive but lose the ship. It state that God has given you all that sail with you. God in Christ working yet once again. Our fellowship is with theFather and with the Son.
----- Ill get into the Epistles next in this same post.
Right. We are not instructed to have that kind of a prayer relationship with Jesus, nor do we have examples of it. Jesus prayed to the Father and taught us to do the same.
The only 2-way conversations we see in the Scriptures with the post-Ascension Jesus participating in are unusual events, initiated by God and look to be either unique "re-visits" or Godly constructed projections (visions), that were not at all part of everyday life.
I think this is what a lot of people are seeking, who have rejected the relationship of ambassador that God has provided for us with the Ascension.
People want the "feel" that he is not absent, not hidden, not personally present, and a 2 way conversation is pretty close to that kind of a feel.
People who refuse to see God's plan, that it involves taking Jesus away from such "personal presence" relationships, will then construct counterfeit relationships, with make-believe 2-way communications with Jesus.
People who don't like God's plan can circumvent it by just dialing Jesus direct... and getting a wrong number.
I will wait for God to provide the real deal with Jesus personal presence in the near future.
Mike, It was God's plan to usethe example of a body to show Christ's relationship with us - Christ is the head and you are a member. Why did God do this? What did He want to teach us about Christ?
Question: When your hand accidentally touches a hot flying pan, why do you jerk your hand away?
Answer: When we feel pain, such as when we touch a hot stove, sensory receptors in our skin send a message via nerve fibers (A-delta fibers and C fibers) to the spinal cord and brain stem and then onto the brain where the sensation of pain is registered, the information is processed and the pain is perceived.
Once the brain has received and interpreted the pain message, it coordinates an appropriate response. The brain can send a signal back to the spinal cord and nerves to increase or decrease the severity of pain. For example, the brain can signal the release of natural painkillers known as endorphins.
Right. We are not instructed to have that kind of a prayer relationship with Jesus, nor do we have examples of it. Jesus prayed to the Father and taught us to do the same.
The only 2-way conversations we see in the Scriptures with the post-Ascension Jesus participating in are unusual events, initiated by God and look to be either unique "re-visits" or Godly constructed projections (visions), that were not at all part of everyday life.
Straight out lies. I gave you a list of examples, yet you ignore those and still remain ignorant of actual scripture in favor of VP.
John 14:13-15
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father,and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
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Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
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Continuing onwards: 2/1
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Here we see that Paul received his ministry FROM Jesus Christ and not directly from God, sidestepping Jesus as absent.
Acts 22:6-11
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto theground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth,whom thou persecutest.
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard notthe voice of him that spake to me.
10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which areappointed for thee to do.
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
In Acts 22:9 we see that those with Paul heard not the voice but saw the light that shone around them. Acts 9:7 says his companions heard a voice but saw no man. Acts 22:9 doesnt contradict Acts 9:7 but givesmore insight into Paul's conversation with the non-absent Christ.
God's Word Translation:
Acts 22:9
"The men who were with me saw the light but didn't understand what the person who was speaking to me said. Perhaps they didnt understand Hebrew.
So, again we see that Jesus Christ interacted directly with Paul and his prescence was known by Paul's travel companions but they did not understand what was said to Paul. Interesting.
Acts 22:13-15
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:13-15 we see again another few tidbits added into the record of Acts 9 where Ananias ministered to Paul at Jesus direct request. Here we see that God chose Paul. This again shows that Jesus and God are one in will and purpose. The Lord Jesus does what God wants done to the letter, but it is Christ performing the various functions and requests in his ascended, exalted, Lordship.
Acts 22:16-21
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
17And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
In Acts 22:17-21 we see that Jesus gives Paul yet another vision and a conversational one at that. Jesus Christ is directing Paul, showing once again that Christ directly controls the affairs of the Church according to God's will and at times that direction may happen through direct communication with Christ.
Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.”
Here Jesus Christ stood by Paul, whether in a vision, or literally I dont know. But either way once again we see the intimate fellowship and encouragement. It;s likely that Paul realised how bad he effed up and the Lord knew he needed to be strengthned. Where in scripture does it ever say that Jesus Christ cannot appear to someone physically on earth as God directs?
Acts 26:12-18
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
So here we have yet another record of what happened in Acts 9 where the Lord appeared unto Saul. Perhaps his travel companions did not understand Hebrew and that's why they didnt understand what Jesus said but heard the voice just the same.
Acts 27:21-25
But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Here we see an Angel of God to tell Paul that they would all survive but lose the ship. It state that God has given you all that sail with you. God in Christ working yet once again. Our fellowship is with theFather and with the Son.
Right. We are not instructed to have that kind of a prayer relationship with Jesus, nor do we have examples of it. Jesus prayed to the Father and taught us to do the same.
Of course Jesus prayed to the Father - he wasn't going to pray to himself! Have you ever noticed the context of Jesus’ prayer to God?It was one example out of three where Jesus is teaching the difference between people doing righteous acts so they can be seen of men to get their praise and doing them in secret BEFORE THE FATHER who will reward them in heaven.
5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
“This, then, is how you should pray: “’Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
The context is the correct way of doing righteous acts before the Father. You cannot use the Lord's prayer to prove what can and cannot be done in our relationship with his son and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Non-Jewish readers would have been familiar with the case of the emperorAugustus, whose ascent was witnessed by Senators;Romulusthe founder of Rome, who, like Jesus, was taken to heaven in a cloud; the Greek heroHeracles(Hercules); and others.[15]
Flat out lies as I stated before, but you find me ONE verse that forbids interaction with Jesus Christ...One verse!
I don't forbid it either, but I do note that most of the time the believers in Acts did not have such interactions. Years would chug by between the blue scriptures listed above. I also note that none of the interactions were conjured up or entreated by believers. God initiates such rare interactions in Acts, not believers.
I also note the rarity of such events in everyday life. I also note that not so rare are really stupid fake imaginations of interactions or relationships with Jesus.
I love it when God intervenes. I love all those interactions we see in Acts, but I do not see any instructions in them for my behavior and prayer life. I do see plenty of that in Paul's epistles.
I think the devil tempts Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus, when said Christians refuse to see and obey what the church epistles tell us. It is sad to see Christians seeking comfort in a lovy-dovy, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus, all the while they themselves were called to give genuine comfort to those who hunger to be reconciled to God.
I do not know exactly how to treat Jesus' words you quoted in the Gospels and how much of that applies to us in this administration. We can look into it.
I don't forbid it either, but I do note that most of the time the believers in Acts did not have such interactions. Years would chug by between the blue scriptures listed above. I also note that none of the interactions were conjured up or entreated by believers. God initiates such rare interactions in Acts, not believers.
I also note the rarity of such events in everyday life. I also note that not so rare are really stupid fake imaginations of interactions or relationships with Jesus.
I love it when God intervenes. I love all those interactions we see in Acts, but I do not see any instructions in them for my behavior and prayer life. I do see plenty of that in Paul's epistles.
I think the devil tempts Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus, when said Christians refuse to see and obey what the church epistles tell us. It is sad to see Christians seeking comfort in a lovy-dovy, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus, all the while they themselves were called to give genuine comfort to those who hunger to be reconciled to God.
I do not know exactly how to treat Jesus' words you quoted in the Gospels and how much of that applies to us in this administration. We can look into it.
I sense a spiritual anger . . .
lovy-dovy Jesus is an issue . . . interfering with obedience?
I do not know exactly how to treat Jesus' words you quoted in the Gospels and how much of that applies to us in this administration. We can look into it.
While you're "looking into it", you might also want to look into the bogus doctrine of administrations.
I don't forbid it either, but I do note that most of the time the believers in Acts did not have such interactions. Years would chug by between the blue scriptures listed above. I also note that none of the interactions were conjured up or entreated by believers. God initiates such rare interactions in Acts, not believers.
I also note the rarity of such events in everyday life. I also note that not so rare are really stupid fake imaginations of interactions or relationships with Jesus.
I love it when God intervenes. I love all those interactions we see in Acts, but I do not see any instructions in them for my behavior and prayer life. I do see plenty of that in Paul's epistles.
I think the devil tempts Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus, when said Christians refuse to see and obey what the church epistles tell us. It is sad to see Christians seeking comfort in a lovy-dovy, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus, all the while they themselves were called to give genuine comfort to those who hunger to be reconciled to God.
I do not know exactly how to treat Jesus' words you quoted in the Gospels and how much of that applies to us in this administration. We can look into it.
Yeah, but I noticed you skipped those verses again that prove you wrong and you then act as if you know what Jesus, God, the devil -- as if you know what they are all up to. You once again provide your opinion based on what victor paul wierwille said....
Right. We are not instructed to have that kind of a prayer relationship with Jesus, nor do we have examples of it. Jesus prayed to the Father and taught us to do the same.
The only 2-way conversations we see in the Scriptures with the post-Ascension Jesus participating in are unusual events, initiated by God and look to be either unique "re-visits" or Godly constructed projections (visions), that were not at all part of everyday life.
I think this is what a lot of people are seeking, who have rejected the relationship of ambassador that God has provided for us with the Ascension.
People want the "feel" that he is not absent, not hidden, not personally present, and a 2 way conversation is pretty close to that kind of a feel.
People who refuse to see God's plan, that it involves taking Jesus away from such "personal presence" relationships, will then construct counterfeit relationships, with make-believe 2-way communications with Jesus.
People who don't like God's plan can circumvent it by just dialing Jesus direct... and getting a wrong number.
I will wait for God to provide the real deal with Jesus personal presence in the near future.
Mike, the following verses are to prove how wrong you are in your statements which I've marked in red above. First, look at John 13:13.
John 13:13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
They are all in the book of Acts except for the first one which concerns Paul's prayer to Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 12:7b Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Acts 1: 23So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
Acts 6:5b They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6 They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.
Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed (called upon), “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”
These 2 verses show how Stephen’s prayer expresses a communion with the Lord that neither hatred nor stones nor the imminence of death can interrupt.
Acts 8:15,1715 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 13:2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
I stopped here but there are more and I think you get the message since they are all from Scripture. The rest of your post is what you think.
I didnt say that. You ask about various historical related items so I provided a list of links. Read em or not. I dont really care.
I didn't say you did.
The thread is about the absent Christ, which the Word takes the place of. In TWI The Word is The Bible.
There's multiple canons out there. Which one is it would be a remark to TWI. Bible worship precedes VPW.
But Christianity is at least hundreds of years older than all versions of The Bible.
Christ ascended, assumption, in a cloud which is a common symbolism 2000 years ago, which people back then would have understood. Heaven is not outer space.
There's refence in the Bible to be absent from the body, which means we died. But the dead are not alive in TWI.
Then there's the Trinity. Christ is a man and God. He is both. He is absent and present.
I have seen a few grads go off the deep end carrying on conversations with Jesus in front of others to show off their tight relationship. You think I've got mental problems? LoL
What others do should not be your basis for truth (so don't point them out as if they are going to prove anything). The Scriptures are Mike and you have been shown many which you ignore and/or minimize because they don't agree with vp.
The thread is about the absent Christ, which the Word takes the place of. In TWI The Word is The Bible.
There's multiple canons out there. Which one is it would be a remark to TWI. Bible worship precedes VPW.
But Christianity is at least hundreds of years older than all versions of The Bible.
Christ ascended, assumption, in a cloud which is a common symbolism 2000 years ago, which people back then would have understood. Heaven is not outer space.
There's refence in the Bible to be absent from the body, which means we died. But the dead are not alive in TWI.
Then there's the Trinity. Christ is a man and God. He is both. He is absent and present.
He is absent as a Man, present as a God?
Fair enough, after re-reading my post I sounded like a jerk, my apologies.
Christ has been changed. The transfiguration was a sneak peak and those present needed to see it and Christ needed it as well. Christ has been changed to a life giving spirit. Whatever that actually means is beyond me. Like anyone else, I only have a glimpse.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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WordWolf
Mike:
"I think his old-man nature was completely contrary to what he really was and what he did when he was in fellowship. When he was in fellowship he did great things for us. THAT is what I prefer to focus on and magnify.
Focus on his old man nature and he was a failure.
Focus on his new man nature and he was a success."
skyrider:
"When was wierwille "in fellowship?"
When was wierwille's "new man nature" evident?"
"Since you asserted wierwille's new man nature was evident and he did great things when he was "in fellowship with God"..... I would like some examples of this. Can you elaborate?
If it was SO EVIDENT..... then you must have DOZENS of examples."
Mike:
"It's mostly in the written works, but recorded teachings and personal appearances helped also. My life was benefited greatly; still is. "
skyrider:
"Another evasive answer, at best. "
WordWolf: No, it tells us a lot. It tells us that, when all is said and done, the BEST that Mike can cite about what vpw did, the biggest impact made on anybody's life in a POSITIVE way, was in the Bible teachings, homilies, sermons, books, etc. Those were the "great" things Mike's got to offer.
So Crates:
"So you're saying Saint Vic was most in fellowship when he was being a phony, being hypocritical, and when he was ripping off other people's work. SMH. "
skyrider:
"TRANSLATION: Mike makes these grandiose declarations about wierwille's life and "greatness"..... but then gives evasive replies to back up wierwille's new man nature in Christ. This evasiveness has all the hallmarks of a snake oil representative selling a product from a snake oil company. Always barking bold assertions of wierwille's wares, but only in the shadowy form of generalities. Pfffttt."
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WordWolf
Mike:
"Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.
He told me so."
WordWolf: Well, Mike, since you've brought it up, I think your mental health isn't all it should be.
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skyrider
Nasty descriptions of you?
Mike, when you continue to agitate, stir conflict and refuse to engage those who challenge your statements and hypothesis....AND you get called on the carpet for it.....THAT is not "nasty descriptions of you." Why is it that you continuously make these bold [false] declarations of wierwille's writings knowing that he heavily plagiarized throughout his whole life?
Why is it that you immediately run for cover and play the "victim card" whenever someone challenges your statements? You see, Mike.... you can't have it BOTH WAYS. You cannot come to GSC and make these false assertions without being challenged. All of this is antithetical to a discussion forum where facts, opinions and judgments are volleyed back and forth to further understanding.
Mike, you first posted on GSC on December 27, 2002 with a preaching pronouncement entitled "Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 years!" That thread alone expanded to 43 pages.
After more than two decades of posting, I have long passed the threshold of giving you the benefit of doubt and surmise that you come to GSC for the sole satisfaction of CONFLICT. You like to agitate others. You seem to gain a sense of purpose by stirring the pot of conflicting statements for self gain [mental superiority over others]. And, although the vast majority disagrees with your statements... you are undeterred to keep coming back for more conflict.
When it becomes abundantly obvious that your declarations are wrong and absurd... you use the evasive tactic of avoidance. You, instead, just move on to another conflicting statement or teaching. At no time, do you stop and reflect on your position. Why? Because in your mind.... you are right and all others are wrong.
You are like a castaway on an island of your own making.
And, you like it that way.
.
Edited by skyrideradd clarity
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OldSkool
Mike can't handle this topic from scripture. All he keeps doing is quoting wierwille or way magazines...as if any of that is authoritative. Once again...copious example of interaction between Christ and those in his body from scripture...and I betcha Mike still will dance around it all.
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are in blue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 2/1
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Here we see that Paul received his ministry FROM Jesus Christ and not directly from God, sidestepping Jesus as absent.
Acts 22:6-11
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
In Acts 22:9 we see that those with Paul heard not the voice but saw the light that shone around them. Acts 9:7 says his companions heard a voice but saw no man. Acts 22:9 doesnt contradict Acts 9:7 but gives more insight into Paul's conversation with the non-absent Christ.
God's Word Translation:
Acts 22:9
"The men who were with me saw the light but didn't understand what the person who was speaking to me said. Perhaps they didnt understand Hebrew.
So, again we see that Jesus Christ interacted directly with Paul and his prescence was known by Paul's travel companions but they did not understand what was said to Paul. Interesting.
Acts 22:13-15
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:13-15 we see again another few tidbits added into the record of Acts 9 where Ananias ministered to Paul at Jesus direct request. Here we see that God chose Paul. This again shows that Jesus and God are one in will and purpose. The Lord Jesus does what God wants done to the letter, but it is Christ performing the various functions and requests in his ascended, exalted, Lordship.
Acts 22:16-21
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
17And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
In Acts 22:17-21 we see that Jesus gives Paul yet another vision and a conversational one at that. Jesus Christ is directing Paul, showing once again that Christ directly controls the affairs of the Church according to God's will and at times that direction may happen through direct communication with Christ.
Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.”
Here Jesus Christ stood by Paul, whether in a vision, or literally I dont know. But either way once again we see the intimate fellowship and encouragement. It;s likely that Paul realised how bad he effed up and the Lord knew he needed to be strengthned. Where in scripture does it ever say that Jesus Christ cannot appear to someone physically on earth as God directs?
Acts 26:12-18
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
So here we have yet another record of what happened in Acts 9 where the Lord appeared unto Saul. Perhaps his travel companions did not understand Hebrew and that's why they didnt understand what Jesus said but heard the voice just the same.
Acts 27:21-25
But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Here we see an Angel of God to tell Paul that they would all survive but lose the ship. It state that God has given you all that sail with you. God in Christ working yet once again. Our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son.
----- Ill get into the Epistles next in this same post.
Edited by OldSkool
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Bolshevik
DragonBall GT is not canon. There's some concepts I think are superior to and I wish were incorporated into DragonBall Super.
A cloud was also involved in transport early in DBZ. That was before instant transmission, which is much less showy.
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Bolshevik
The Orthodox continued to add books, the Catholics had no issue with that.
Adding books is something one would expect. Since people exist before books.
The Protestants removed books, which the Catholics had issue is.
The point being the Church existed before the book.
Think about how much attention Mike gets here. Where will that attention be in 30 years? In a book? In a thread?
Who does GSC take the place of?
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Nathan_Jr
Agreed.
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Bolshevik
Cigarettes have warning labels.
But the population of underdeveloped and overly attached will continue to need them.
Death is not a person's biggest fear.
What does The Word take the place of? What is Christ?
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Charity
Mike, It was God's plan to use the example of a body to show Christ's relationship with us - Christ is the head and you are a member. Why did God do this? What did He want to teach us about Christ?
Question: When your hand accidentally touches a hot flying pan, why do you jerk your hand away?
Answer: When we feel pain, such as when we touch a hot stove, sensory receptors in our skin send a message via nerve fibers (A-delta fibers and C fibers) to the spinal cord and brain stem and then onto the brain where the sensation of pain is registered, the information is processed and the pain is perceived.
Once the brain has received and interpreted the pain message, it coordinates an appropriate response. The brain can send a signal back to the spinal cord and nerves to increase or decrease the severity of pain. For example, the brain can signal the release of natural painkillers known as endorphins.
It's how a body works!
https://mydr.com.au/pain/pain-and-how-you-sense-it/
https://www.nva.org/learnpatient/how-we-feel-pain/
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OldSkool
Straight out lies. I gave you a list of examples, yet you ignore those and still remain ignorant of actual scripture in favor of VP.
John 14:13-15
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
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Continuing onwards: 2/1
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Here we see that Paul received his ministry FROM Jesus Christ and not directly from God, sidestepping Jesus as absent.
Acts 22:6-11
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
In Acts 22:9 we see that those with Paul heard not the voice but saw the light that shone around them. Acts 9:7 says his companions heard a voice but saw no man. Acts 22:9 doesnt contradict Acts 9:7 but gives more insight into Paul's conversation with the non-absent Christ.
God's Word Translation:
Acts 22:9
"The men who were with me saw the light but didn't understand what the person who was speaking to me said. Perhaps they didnt understand Hebrew.
So, again we see that Jesus Christ interacted directly with Paul and his prescence was known by Paul's travel companions but they did not understand what was said to Paul. Interesting.
Acts 22:13-15
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:13-15 we see again another few tidbits added into the record of Acts 9 where Ananias ministered to Paul at Jesus direct request. Here we see that God chose Paul. This again shows that Jesus and God are one in will and purpose. The Lord Jesus does what God wants done to the letter, but it is Christ performing the various functions and requests in his ascended, exalted, Lordship.
Acts 22:16-21
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
17And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
In Acts 22:17-21 we see that Jesus gives Paul yet another vision and a conversational one at that. Jesus Christ is directing Paul, showing once again that Christ directly controls the affairs of the Church according to God's will and at times that direction may happen through direct communication with Christ.
Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.”
Here Jesus Christ stood by Paul, whether in a vision, or literally I dont know. But either way once again we see the intimate fellowship and encouragement. It;s likely that Paul realised how bad he effed up and the Lord knew he needed to be strengthned. Where in scripture does it ever say that Jesus Christ cannot appear to someone physically on earth as God directs?
Acts 26:12-18
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
So here we have yet another record of what happened in Acts 9 where the Lord appeared unto Saul. Perhaps his travel companions did not understand Hebrew and that's why they didnt understand what Jesus said but heard the voice just the same.
Acts 27:21-25
But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Here we see an Angel of God to tell Paul that they would all survive but lose the ship. It state that God has given you all that sail with you. God in Christ working yet once again. Our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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Charity
Of course Jesus prayed to the Father - he wasn't going to pray to himself! Have you ever noticed the context of Jesus’ prayer to God? It was one example out of three where Jesus is teaching the difference between people doing righteous acts so they can be seen of men to get their praise and doing them in secret BEFORE THE FATHER who will reward them in heaven.
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
“This, then, is how you should pray: “’Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
The context is the correct way of doing righteous acts before the Father. You cannot use the Lord's prayer to prove what can and cannot be done in our relationship with his son and our Lord Jesus Christ.
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OldSkool
Flat out lies as I stated before, but you find me ONE verse that forbids interaction with Jesus Christ...One verse!
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OldSkool
Heres a list of links the Bible's history.
https://textusreceptusbibles.com/Editorial
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Bolshevik
Right The Word The Word nothing But The Word.
. . . . which word?
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Bolshevik
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension_of_Jesus
Clouds!
Symbolism!
Clouds!
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Mike
I don't forbid it either, but I do note that most of the time the believers in Acts did not have such interactions. Years would chug by between the blue scriptures listed above. I also note that none of the interactions were conjured up or entreated by believers. God initiates such rare interactions in Acts, not believers.
I also note the rarity of such events in everyday life. I also note that not so rare are really stupid fake imaginations of interactions or relationships with Jesus.
I love it when God intervenes. I love all those interactions we see in Acts, but I do not see any instructions in them for my behavior and prayer life. I do see plenty of that in Paul's epistles.
I think the devil tempts Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus, when said Christians refuse to see and obey what the church epistles tell us. It is sad to see Christians seeking comfort in a lovy-dovy, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus, all the while they themselves were called to give genuine comfort to those who hunger to be reconciled to God.
I do not know exactly how to treat Jesus' words you quoted in the Gospels and how much of that applies to us in this administration. We can look into it.
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Bolshevik
I sense a spiritual anger . . .
lovy-dovy Jesus is an issue . . . interfering with obedience?
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waysider
While you're "looking into it", you might also want to look into the bogus doctrine of administrations.
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OldSkool
Yeah, but I noticed you skipped those verses again that prove you wrong and you then act as if you know what Jesus, God, the devil -- as if you know what they are all up to. You once again provide your opinion based on what victor paul wierwille said....
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OldSkool
I didnt say that. You ask about various historical related items so I provided a list of links. Read em or not. I dont really care.
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Charity
Mike, the following verses are to prove how wrong you are in your statements which I've marked in red above. First, look at John 13:13.
John 13:13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.
They are all in the book of Acts except for the first one which concerns Paul's prayer to Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 12:7b Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Acts 1: 23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
Acts 6:5b They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6 They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.
Acts 7: 59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed (called upon), “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”
These 2 verses show how Stephen’s prayer expresses a communion with the Lord that neither hatred nor stones nor the imminence of death can interrupt.
Acts 8:15,17 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
I stopped here but there are more and I think you get the message since they are all from Scripture. The rest of your post is what you think.
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Bolshevik
I didn't say you did.
The thread is about the absent Christ, which the Word takes the place of. In TWI The Word is The Bible.
There's multiple canons out there. Which one is it would be a remark to TWI. Bible worship precedes VPW.
But Christianity is at least hundreds of years older than all versions of The Bible.
Christ ascended, assumption, in a cloud which is a common symbolism 2000 years ago, which people back then would have understood. Heaven is not outer space.
There's refence in the Bible to be absent from the body, which means we died. But the dead are not alive in TWI.
Then there's the Trinity. Christ is a man and God. He is both. He is absent and present.
He is absent as a Man, present as a God?
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Charity
What others do should not be your basis for truth (so don't point them out as if they are going to prove anything). The Scriptures are Mike and you have been shown many which you ignore and/or minimize because they don't agree with vp.
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OldSkool
Fair enough, after re-reading my post I sounded like a jerk, my apologies.
Christ has been changed. The transfiguration was a sneak peak and those present needed to see it and Christ needed it as well. Christ has been changed to a life giving spirit. Whatever that actually means is beyond me. Like anyone else, I only have a glimpse.
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