All this was happening while I was trying but failing to sleep in bed. If I'd realised, I'd've got my phone out and tried to read some of this monologue. Would've put me to sleep fast.
Obviously you haven't read the thread or tracked the concepts presented, or even considered them in any meaningful way. I won't respond to you with long thoughtful posts, others have done that and it goes nowhere with you Mike. I will leave you with this verse.
2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Theres people here on GSC who are agnostic/atheist and I tell you this: I can completely respect that position and their right to choose to believe as they do and I have no judgement towards them simply because they are honest and it's obvious they are working through life and trying to sort out what it's all about. I can relate because Im on the same path.
But you are a Christian who's head is victor paul wierwille and not Jesus Christ, who is the true head of the Body of Christ. That's a sad state of affairs there Mike. It's obvious Christ is absent from your life because of the hact that you believe and act as though he is. You, via wierilles corrupt anti-christ doctrines, make him absent.
No, actually, it's always a disgusting mess when ANYONE’S old man nature is closely examined.
I just don't find any profit in ME discussing that. I have my reasons for focusing on what I can understand and grasp.
You don't wnat to discuss it because the truth is too ugly. wierwille is held to a higher standard because he was a leader in the church. Once you take that job then your behavior is to eximplify and overflow Christs fullness and love. I don't quite see that with ole vic and his sexual predations where he counseled his victims to just keep it the adulterous affair in the lockbox so they didn't cause anyone else to stumble. And he stole intellectual property, was a drunk...and so on. That's not just looking at someone's old nature that's bringing to light what the way international has spent millions to hide. Theres a difference. I find it amusing though that the greatest believer since the apostle paul, victor wierwille, the man who was second to none according to himself, the man that God almighty chose to bring hidden light to our day and time....the greatest man of God to walk the earth darn near since Jesus Christ....I find it amusing that you hold him to such a low standard when it comes to sin. He was the greatest unless his sinful ways are exposed and then well...ahh...it's just his old man nature. When leadership in the Church sin and sin against the congregation they should confess the sins publicly to the congregation and come clean to the point of using their old sins to help relate to people struggling with the same problems....but your idol never did that...yeah that would actually be wierwille being the man he knew to be. He knew he was wrong and did nothing about it until he regretted it on his deathbed.
I think the way I understood the 'absent Christ' quip was: Christ is not here physically. I didn't see him physically nor ever saw him physically, has anyone seen physically? I vaguely recall in one of those old threads of Greasespot, that someone posted that twi used to refer to "absent" as "unseen". He hasn't been seen physically, with the eyes, since the first century. Another usage: I believe twi was conveying that you and me (when we are preaching the Word) takes the place of the "unseen" Christ. We are ambassadors for Christ. He cannot be here physically. If he were here physically he wouldn't need an ambassador. At least that's they way I understood it in twi so I didn't have a problem with the statement.
I think the way I understood the 'absent Christ' quip was: Christ is not here physically. I didn't see him physically nor ever saw him physically, has anyone seen physically? I vaguely recall in one of those old threads of Greasespot, that someone posted that twi used to refer to "absent" as "unseen". He hasn't been seen physically, with the eyes, since the first century. Another usage: I believe twi was conveying that you and me (when we are preaching the Word) takes the place of the "unseen" Christ. We are ambassadors for Christ. He cannot be here physically. If he were here physically he wouldn't need an ambassador. At least that's they way I understood it in twi so I didn't have a problem with the statement.
From that point of view I agree and that makes sense. Christians are to be ambassadors for Christ and physically represent him in a flesh and blood world. My disagreement came about with the statement "the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ" - that's the issue at hand. That statemtent indicates that Christ is absent in the lives of believers and that void is filled by reading the word or something...
No, actually, it's always a disgusting mess when ANYONE’S old man nature is closely examined.
I just don't find any profit in ME discussing that. I have my reasons for focusing on what I can understand and grasp.
It gets real messy when a wierwille fan goes overboard whitewashing his unchristian ministry. clean up on cult aisle 6!
4 hours ago, Mike said:
I find it tragic that VPW was not the man he knew to be.
Had he been, many more could have been blessed and blessed bigger.
But as it was, many did get blessed, and God gave him a free pass, just like He wants to give us all one we don't deserve, and far more.
wow - that's just dandy - you're assuming the role of God's high priest ! apparently you think Christ is absent from that role too
4 hours ago, Mike said:
IWe think too small. I try and resist that and choose to look away from what went wrong in the ministry, and look VERY closely at what MASSIVE went right.
I have a right to do that, and there is a NEED for you and the others here to have a strong voice of opposition. That is why you are in my face. I am seriously rocking your boat on the absent Christ.
If I was not hot on the truth, you'd just laugh me off, but you can’t.
you flatter yourself. I take advantage of your wierwille-propaganda to use as a springboard to alert those still in TWI of the dangers of wierwille-toxins
4 hours ago, Mike said:
Suggestion:
Be like Gamaliel and say to yourself when I make a strong point,
that if I am off the will of God, my words will die without you having
to do anything to oppose them.
But if I am speaking truth, then there is nothing you can do,
nor should want to do, to oppose it.
Christ is not absent, "he" is in me. Another way of putting that is: holy spirit is in me.
It is not Jesus, the flesh man, in me. That man is gone, absent, hidden by God.
If and when God wants him present here in the flesh realm, personally, that will happen.
*/*/*/*
I only have so much time and energy, and I choose to look away from the things that went wrong.
WHY? Too many things went right.
Two of those many right things were we that WERE taught the answers to my two moderately difficult questions, and the answers are really cool.
Summary:
Christ Jesus is seated at the right hand of God and all the angels under his feet and command. He and the Father don't miss a shred of what goes on here, so they both are present in that sense.
But when we walk in the flesh, we are oblivious to their spiritual presence.
If you (speaking rhetorically) want Christ the man-mediator to be "present" spiritually, then you got to be right with God and in fellowship.... otherwise God and Christ are absent for you... but lovingly watching for when you want to be in fellowship.
Christ Jesus, the flesh man is absent, but it's only temporary.
Meanwhile.....
Oops! I almost gave away the answer to one of the moderately difficult questions.
T-Bone, I just thought I’d give you all the energy I had left tonight and answer one of your questions or challenges. I won’t have time or energy to even READ the other responses here, so please vouch for me that at least I spent the time and answered you one.
I wonder if any of the others are working on my two moderately difficult questions, or if they are just attacking me for not dealing with attacks on me, over and over.
don't hold your breath waiting
4 hours ago, Mike said:
I hope they can focus on the MANY more points I made, besides the two moderately difficult questions, a few pages above on the absent Christ. I still have more material on this topic, but I'll wait and let everyone have a chance to discuss the many details I already posted above.... or have a chance to attack me not caring for the right things.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up [away from them] ; and a cloud received him out of their sight [hidden].
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven [far away] as he went up [away from them], behold, two men stood by them [near] in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you [gone] into heaven [far away], shall so come [be present again] in like manner as ye have seen him go [away] into heaven[far away].
Timeline:
Verse 6 – Jesus physically present
Verse 7 – Jesus physically present
Verse 8 – Jesus physically present
Verse 9 – Jesus far away, and then hidden
Verse 10 – Jesus absent, but only temporary
Verse 11 – Jesus taken up, absent, gone
*/*/*/*/*
Now, after getting the timeline on his absence straight, it would next be good to discern what VPW meant by “Christ” in the phrase “absent Christ.”
Did he mean the man Jesus, or the man Jesus Christ, or the man Christ Jesus, or the man Christ ?…
OR did he mean the gift of holy spirit, which is Christ in you?
OR did he mean “the anointing or the unction," which is what “Christ” means.
I can see from previous posting that some of you think it’s Jesus the man, and some think it’s holy spirit.
Well, we know that holy spirit came in abundance 10 days later, so that is not absent. And First John tells us we have the anointing.
That just leaves Jesus, the man.
From what I see in all his teachings, I put my money on VPW meaning “the absent man” when he said the absent Christ. Plus, that's what Acts says.
I realize that Christ is not Jesus’, the man’s last name.But in that phrase VPW referred to the man, Christ, by the title or the description of specialness that makes up the meaning of the word “Christ.”
Is the man Jesus present or absent?
If present now, then how will he be described at the Return?
More present? I think not.
*/*/*/*/
Now, instead of getting upset over the absent man, Christ Jesus, I have a much more intriguing question.
Instead of complaining that VPW made Jesus absent, why not ask yourself WHY do we read in Acts above that Jesus went far away and hidden by an act of God, presided over by angels.
WHY would God be as nasty as you all say VPW was, and hide Jesus from us, take him far away, make him absent?
Why did Acts 1:9 happen?
“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up [away from them] ; and a cloud received him out of their sight [hidden].”
What is the GREAT benefit for us in God causing Jesus, the man, to be absent?
WHY,WHY, WHY did God do such a thing?
*/*/*
Those of you who think that Jesus, the man, is NOT absent will likely miss the great benefit God established for us in moving Jesus far away and hiding him.
This is a bit counter-intuitive, like the angel with flaming sword guarding the entrance to Paradise after Adam and Eve were cast out. That flaming sword looks like a negative to us, at first, but it is actually a GREAT blessing that God blocked Paradise, and made it “absent” this way.
The ”absent Christ” looks like it is negative, until you flash on God’s reasons for making Christ (the man) absent.
Does anyone know WHY God made Paradise absent, and why that was a blessing?
Does anyone here, besides me, know WHY it was a GREAT blessing to us that God had Acts 1:9 happen, and Jesus moved far away, totally hidden, and absent until sent back.
Has anyone noticed that absent and sent are opposites?
Absent is like “sent away,” just like we read in Acts 1:9.
And if any are unhappy with me emphasizing “the man” try retemorizing this:
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
1 Timothy 2:5
11 hours ago, Mike said:
New International Version
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
Berean Standard Bible
After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when he had said these things, as they saw him, he was taken up and a cloud received him and he was hidden from their eyes.
NET Bible
After he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight.
11 hours ago, Mike said:
An interesting thought flashed across my mind. Tell me it this rings accurate. If not I will check the video.
In the Rock of Ages movie, there is a scene with VPW talking to a little boy. VPW asks him "Where's Jesus?" The little boy points up. VPW points to the little boy's chest and says "He's in there." or something like that.
Here we have VPW condescending way down to the little boy's vocabulary, and really asked the boy "Where is Christ?" ... meaning holy spirit. That holy spirit, Christ in you, is within every believer.
Context helps not only in Biblical interpretation but everywhere and in everything.
10 hours ago, Mike said:
Maybe, but you ought to study nothing but the Church Epistles for 3 months first, so that you can understand my beliefs.
I asked 2 moderately difficult questions. Why is Paradise hidden or absent? Why is Jesus hidden or absent?
If you had studied VPW's teachings better you would know the answer. Instead you criticize what you haven't yet understood.
I will let the questions sit, so that others can exercise their memories.
Tell me, Nathan_Jr, what do you plan to do with the answers, should you understand them?
9 hours ago, Mike said:
I think this is off topic.
Back to topic:
Can you answer my two moderately difficult questions above?
9 hours ago, Mike said:
I want to discuss what we were taught about the absent Christ, and what the Bible says about it.
I think this is a needed subject, and VPW's old-man nature has already been discussed ad infinitum.
What I brought up so far, like my two moderately difficult questions, have not gotten nearly the posting or thought.
I think you are trying to change the subject, because you can't answer my two moderately difficult questions. Did I guess right?
8 hours ago, Mike said:
I have a strong feeling, from that response above and many others, that you will NOT understand the answer.
Don't get your hopes up.
6 hours ago, Mike said:
No, actually, it's always a disgusting mess when ANYONE’S old man nature is closely examined.
I just don't find any profit in ME discussing that. I have my reasons for focusing on what I can understand and grasp.
I find it tragic that VPW was not the man he knew to be.
Had he been, many more could have been blessed and blessed bigger.
But as it was, many did get blessed, and God gave him a free pass, just like He wants to give us all one we don't deserve, and far more.
I have a hard time giving up grudges. There were times I had a grudge against VPW. I only went full bore PFAL starting in 1998. There were plenty of times in the 1980s I was disappointed in him. But I did see enough good that I wanted others to see the same good I saw.
I am sure many people in Israel, and especially in Uriah’s family, had great angst over David.
For those who knew David well, and that he was often inspired by the True God, it must have given them great pain.
What a waste! But some of them eventually saw that the Psalms were worth more than them having great angst and throwing the Psalms away. That is not an easy position to hold, TRUST me, because it is very similar to my position.
*/*/*/*
We think too small. I try and resist that and choose to look away from what went wrong in the ministry, and look VERY closely at what MASSIVE went right.
I have a right to do that, and there is a NEED for you and the others here to have a strong voice of opposition. That is why you are in my face. I am seriously rocking your boat on the absent Christ.
If I was not hot on the truth, you'd just laugh me off, but you can’t.
Suggestion:
Be like Gamaliel and say to yourself when I make a strong point,
that if I am off the will of God, my words will die without you having
to do anything to oppose them.
But if I am speaking truth, then there is nothing you can do,
nor should want to do, to oppose it.
Christ is not absent, "he" is in me. Another way of putting that is: holy spirit is in me.
It is not Jesus, the flesh man, in me. That man is gone, absent, hidden by God.
If and when God wants him present here in the flesh realm, personally, that will happen.
*/*/*/*
I only have so much time and energy, and I choose to look away from the things that went wrong.
WHY? Too many things went right.
Two of those many right things were we that WERE taught the answers to my two moderately difficult questions, and the answers are really cool.
Summary:
Christ Jesus is seated at the right hand of God and all the angels under his feet and command. He and the Father don't miss a shred of what goes on here, so they both are present in that sense.
But when we walk in the flesh, we are oblivious to their spiritual presence.
If you (speaking rhetorically) want Christ the man-mediator to be "present" spiritually, then you got to be right with God and in fellowship.... otherwise God and Christ are absent for you... but lovingly watching for when you want to be in fellowship.
Christ Jesus, the flesh man is absent, but it's only temporary.
Meanwhile.....
Oops! I almost gave away the answer to one of the moderately difficult questions.
T-Bone, I just thought I’d give you all the energy I had left tonight and answer one of your questions or challenges. I won’t have time or energy to even READ the other responses here, so please vouch for me that at least I spent the time and answered you one.
I wonder if any of the others are working on my two moderately difficult questions, or if they are just attacking me for not dealing with attacks on me, over and over.
I hope they can focus on the MANY more points I made, besides the two moderately difficult questions, a few pages above on the absent Christ. I still have more material on this topic, but I'll wait and let everyone have a chance to discuss the many details I already posted above.... or have a chance to attack me not caring for the right things.
considering the propaganda for wierwille's defense in Mike's posts - and his failure to engage in an honest discussion - I honestly wonder WHY Mike wastes his time at Grease Spot Cafe.
Maybe his time would be better spent if he went to work at TWI HQ.
From that point of view I agree and that makes sense. Christians are to be ambassadors for Christ and physically represent him in a flesh and blood world. My disagreement came about with the statement "the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ" - that's the issue at hand. That statemtent indicates that Christ is absent in the lives of believers and that void is filled by reading the wordor something...
It's not an "OR" something; it's "AND" something(s).
The other things, after receiving the Word somewhat accurately (like Jesus did), are retaining that Word in mind against opposing circumstances (like Jesus did), and then releasing that Word in love (like Jesus did).
If those three are not happening at all, then Christ-within (pneuma hagion) pretty much IS absent in their lives. I suppose we can coast on what we know and receive no more and have SOME presence of Christ within, but coasting on what we know means RETAINING. Sure, we can coast on retaining and not release, but that is a pretty stunted life with Christ. Also, the Eve Syndrome is sure to set in with such minimal renewed mind, and with adding/subtracting/changing, pretty soon there is no Word left to retain.
*/*/*/*
NEW TOPIC (very temporary) - The RRR process I outlined above was happening a lot in the 70s. I feel for those grads, like you I think, who took the class after the ministry meltdown in 1986. I can't blame you if you think the ANDs I supplied to answer your frustration above are futile. If I had not seen RRR working in my life and many others, I'd think it was futile also.
I think the way I understood the 'absent Christ' quip was: Christ is not here physically. I didn't see him physically nor ever saw him physically, has anyone seen physically? I vaguely recall in one of those old threads of Greasespot, that someone posted that twi used to refer to "absent" as "unseen". He hasn't been seen physically, with the eyes, since the first century. Another usage: I believe twi was conveying that you and me (when we are preaching the Word) takes the place of the "unseen" Christ. We are ambassadors for Christ. He cannot be here physically. If he were here physically he wouldn't need an ambassador. At least that's they way I understood it in twi so I didn't have a problem with the statement.
Thanks Oldiesman. That ambassador angle is good. I had not thought of explaining it that way.
wow - that's just dandy - you're assuming the role of God's high priest ! apparently you think Christ is absent from that role t .... not interested in your misdirection
I had said:
"I find it tragic that VPW was not the man he knew to be.
Had he been, many more could have been blessed and blessed bigger.
But as it was, many did get blessed, and God gave him a free pass, just like He wants to give us all one we don't deserve, and far more."
So, T-Bone, it looks to me that you hadn't picked up on my reference to 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Or maybe you never considered that God is faithful in this, even when we are not. Or maybe you never considered that this cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness.
No, I was only thankfully expecting God to be faithful to forgive us all and let us serve, in spite of the sin in our lives. Of course we'd do better, MUCH better, if we avoided the sin. That is what I was lamenting. But I am still thankful for those days when VPW was in fellowship and serving us with what God taught him.
Are you sure this is not projection on your part, and that YOU are assuming a high role or something when you proclaim that my direction is mis-direction. I am directing us to consider that the absent Christ is a good thing, done by God to bless us. Did you see Oldiesman's post? Is that mis-direction, to bring up ambassador for Christ?
You get plenty of text out on what you think is proper direction, but does it jive with God's written Word? I think not. But that's just my direction. We will get this fully aired when Christ comes back.
God gave him a free pass, just like He wants to give us all one we don't deserve, and far more.
This quote is from Mike...not Wayside. Mike God gave nobody a free pass. Jesus Christ paid the price...a rather hideous price...and based on that sacrifice we are declared righteous by our identification with Christ. Vpw got a lot of splaining to do on that day.
Sheesh! WordWolf. You sure do embrace a lot of silly errors:
8 hours ago, WordWolf said:
vpw didn't use those versions, therefore Mike won't use them.
Baloney! I can show you where he used (and therefore gave kudos to) the Amplified Bible (one verse) and the New English Bible (half a chapter), and then I think all the PFAL'77 students had to get an 1800s version that I forget the name of. I have it somewhere, though.
The NASB has been one of my favorites since the 1970s, but lately I have been enjoying the NIV.
The reason I posted several versions of Acts 1:9 is because they used the word "hid" or "hidden."
The reason I suggested Nathan_Jr (not everyone, like you made it look) read those Romans chapters in the New English Bible is because that is the best translation of those chapters to me. I was very glad when someone turned me onto Chapter 5 in that version. It has the best explanation to the BIg Question on the street. That question is why did God allow evil, when He had foreknowledge of Lucifer's and Adam's rebellions? I see the answer most clear in that version. I thought it might help Nathan_Jr with one of the two moderately difficult questions I had asked the board.
Have you thought of answers to what benefit did God make Paradise temporarily hidden or absent? And the other moderately difficult question being to what benefit did God make Christ temporarily hidden or absent?
We were taught the answers to both. The answer to the absent Paradise was probably in the Advanced Class, but I am not sure.
The answer to the absent Christ benefit was abundantly taught.
I must have heard it a hundred times.
I think all the focus here on sin and negativity and what went wrong in TWI has gotten some minds here pretty clogged.
The answer to what is the benefit to having Christ physically absent is really simple, and so ubiquitous in the good old days that people are going to do a Homer Simpson DOUGH! when they hear it.
I will answer both questions, but I thought your encyclopedic memory would have it. Maybe you do have it, and are suppressing it, because it bolsters my arguments? Maybe?
The example of the NASB is particularly silly, because the one possible benefit of using the KJV or New KJV is the italics- and the NASB uses the italics.
Wrong again. There were many GOOD reasons for him to use the KJV. In the days when the class was being put together, the KJV had lots of research materials available, like concordances and the English text in the interlinear. Plus people were already familiar with the KJV in his early classes.
Moreover, since the vocabulary usage of the NASB is more standardized than that of the KJV (more often, if you see a word in English, it's translated from the same word in Greek/Hebrew as before), it's more useful when reading to understand the contents. I'm not sure if it was just complete ignorance of the NASB that led vpw to use the KJV only, but I suspect he preferred the 450-year old vocabulary of the KJV to that of a modern version like the NASB. With few fans of Elizabethan literature taking pfal (fans of Shakespeare, et al) vpw could more easily get away with mistakes based on the KJV and relying on its vocabulary even when what he said was factually incorrect.
Also the NASB is relatively new. I had the NT in the 70s, but I think the OT wasn't finished then. Or there was little demand for it, and I never saw the complete NASB until the 80s. I could be wrong on the publication dates, but that's what I remember.
As a fan of Shakespeare, I'd found it irksome when people tortured the KJV English in twi, especially when a quick look at a concordance could expose the mistake. I think the one that bothered me most often was in the Intermediate class. When getting to Colossians 3:5 and the KJV said "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth", Earl said that the word "mortify" meant to "blow to smithereens." Ridiculous. As if Paul was referring to a mortar cannon which was invented millenia later. The KJV has a strong influence from the LATIN (like the Vulgate) because it draws from Tyndale's early efforts to go from Latin to English because that's the best he had. However, modern Bibles aren't hobbled the same way. Tyndale did good work with what he had, and the KJV was a fair accomplishment 450 years ago. So, what did "mortify" mean? Well, come on, anyone with a good vocabulary in English knows what a "mortician" is, and probably knows that "mortis" in Latin is "Death" "Mortify" meant "kill off". All of that would have been avoided by just checking a simple Greek-English Interlinear. That word "mortify" is the Greek word "necrosate." The root word is "NECROS." Again, if you have a decent vocabulary, you don't need to look up "necros" to know it means "death." It's used in many words in English. Doctors deal with necrotic tissue, Paul condemned necromancers in the Bible, etc. vpw made a number of ASSUMPTIONS based entirely on the KJV English, and taught them that way, even though a simple check of the Hebrew or Greek would have shown it was a mistake. In pfal, vpw spent MINUTES on the significance of the word "REPLENISH" in Genesis, when the Hebrew root word meant "FILL" and had NONE of the implications of "REPLENISH". If his doctrine was correct, it wasn't because the KJV used the word "replenish" as a poor translation from the Hebrew. (This has been discussed here, more than once, it's in lists of mistakes from pfal.)
It is a mere American idiom to say "blow to smitherenes" in place of "put to death." It resembles VPW's citing of Israel being surrounded by the enemies tanks and machine guns. WE ALL KNEW what Earl meant. None of us was tricked into thinking gunpowder was invented or used.
Don't be shocked if this is the only answer you get- or the answer is some vague HINTING there's a different answer that he never actually gives.
Airing your special “talents” on Grease Spot Cafe seems pointless to me
Well, of course, it is the case that I am opposing what you think are most the most important points. We differ on what is an important priority here. I think it is most important that we all get more of God's Word into our lives. Ministers will always sin and screw up at times. Let's be thankful for all days we can have fellowship with God and His Son. The absent Christ helps us do that (another hint to one of the two moderately difficult questions).
Well, of course, it is the case that I am opposing what you think are most the most important points. We differ on what is an important priority here. I think it is most important that we all get more of God's Word into our lives. Ministers will always sin and screw up at times. Let's be thankful for all days we can have fellowship with God and His Son. The absent Christ helps us do that (another hint to one of the two moderately difficult questions).
Your absent Christ is another Jesus. Have fun with that.
Well, of course, it is the case that I am opposing what you think are most the most important points. We differ on what is an important priority here. I think it is most important that we all get more of God's Word into our lives
But it’s obvious we are worlds apart on what we each mean when we say it’s important to get more of God’s Word into our lives.
You obviously equate PFAL with God’s Word and the way to get more of that in your life is to review PFAL.
But to end my post on a friendlier note - I would be more than happy to give TWI a good recommendation of you - since I honestly think you are very committed to keeping wierwille’s legacy alive.
Oh dear lord baby Jesus on a pogo stick. (Talladega Nights 2:18)
We we’re having a discussion on why the Ways interpretation of the Bible does NOT take the place of the absent Christ, and now we are playing Jeopardy with Mike with the category “Old Way Teachings”?
Negative Ghost Rider.
Bite me Mike. Take your disruptive scribe BS over to doctrinal and maybe somebody will answer you there.
Or maybe mods can move your commentary for the benefit of the thread and group.
I can show you where he used (and therefore gave kudos to) the Amplified Bible (one verse) and the New English Bible (half a chapter), and then I think all the PFAL'77 students had to get an 1800s version that I forget the name of. I have it somewhere, though.
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can't remember what it's called or where you store it.
Yep, the guy was a bona fide Bible scholar, a genuine research technician if ever I've met one.
But it’s obvious we are worlds apart on what we each mean when we say it’s important to get more of God’s Word into our lives.
You obviously equate PFAL with God’s Word and the way to get more of that in your life is to review PFAL. Mike's response: You are close here. I spent the years 1998 to 2018 reviewing all the collaterals and Magazine articles of VPW. I am now spending more time applying what I learned in that 20 year review: applying to my life's dicipline, applying to loving others better, applying to working the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc. PFAL only directly covers a fraction of the scriptures.
But to end my post on a friendlier note - I would be more than happy to give TWI a good recommendation of you - since I honestly think you are very committed to keeping wierwille’s legacy alive.
.Thanks :)
I cherish any and all friendly exchange here. I am in close contact to TWI leadership on the field and slowly getting to know some at HQ.
The legacy I feel worth preserving of VPW's is what he taught in writing. That is what I focused on to get an understand of God, His Son, and the written Word. It got purified by the time it reached the printing stages. He had a lot of help doing that, people with holy spirit and love.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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Twinky
All this was happening while I was trying but failing to sleep in bed. If I'd realised, I'd've got my phone out and tried to read some of this monologue. Would've put me to sleep fast.
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waysider
Hold on to all your questions
They will be answered at the last session.
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OldSkool
Obviously you haven't read the thread or tracked the concepts presented, or even considered them in any meaningful way. I won't respond to you with long thoughtful posts, others have done that and it goes nowhere with you Mike. I will leave you with this verse.
2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Theres people here on GSC who are agnostic/atheist and I tell you this: I can completely respect that position and their right to choose to believe as they do and I have no judgement towards them simply because they are honest and it's obvious they are working through life and trying to sort out what it's all about. I can relate because Im on the same path.
But you are a Christian who's head is victor paul wierwille and not Jesus Christ, who is the true head of the Body of Christ. That's a sad state of affairs there Mike. It's obvious Christ is absent from your life because of the hact that you believe and act as though he is. You, via wierilles corrupt anti-christ doctrines, make him absent.
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OldSkool
You don't wnat to discuss it because the truth is too ugly. wierwille is held to a higher standard because he was a leader in the church. Once you take that job then your behavior is to eximplify and overflow Christs fullness and love. I don't quite see that with ole vic and his sexual predations where he counseled his victims to just keep it the adulterous affair in the lockbox so they didn't cause anyone else to stumble. And he stole intellectual property, was a drunk...and so on. That's not just looking at someone's old nature that's bringing to light what the way international has spent millions to hide. Theres a difference. I find it amusing though that the greatest believer since the apostle paul, victor wierwille, the man who was second to none according to himself, the man that God almighty chose to bring hidden light to our day and time....the greatest man of God to walk the earth darn near since Jesus Christ....I find it amusing that you hold him to such a low standard when it comes to sin. He was the greatest unless his sinful ways are exposed and then well...ahh...it's just his old man nature. When leadership in the Church sin and sin against the congregation they should confess the sins publicly to the congregation and come clean to the point of using their old sins to help relate to people struggling with the same problems....but your idol never did that...yeah that would actually be wierwille being the man he knew to be. He knew he was wrong and did nothing about it until he regretted it on his deathbed.
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oldiesman
I think the way I understood the 'absent Christ' quip was: Christ is not here physically. I didn't see him physically nor ever saw him physically, has anyone seen physically? I vaguely recall in one of those old threads of Greasespot, that someone posted that twi used to refer to "absent" as "unseen". He hasn't been seen physically, with the eyes, since the first century. Another usage: I believe twi was conveying that you and me (when we are preaching the Word) takes the place of the "unseen" Christ. We are ambassadors for Christ. He cannot be here physically. If he were here physically he wouldn't need an ambassador. At least that's they way I understood it in twi so I didn't have a problem with the statement.
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OldSkool
From that point of view I agree and that makes sense. Christians are to be ambassadors for Christ and physically represent him in a flesh and blood world. My disagreement came about with the statement "the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ" - that's the issue at hand. That statemtent indicates that Christ is absent in the lives of believers and that void is filled by reading the word or something...
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T-Bone
It gets real messy when a wierwille fan goes overboard whitewashing his unchristian ministry. clean up on cult aisle 6!
wow - that's just dandy - you're assuming the role of God's high priest ! apparently you think Christ is absent from that role too
you flatter yourself. I take advantage of your wierwille-propaganda to use as a springboard to alert those still in TWI of the dangers of wierwille-toxins
don't hold your breath waiting
not interested in your misdirection
Edited by T-Boneediting can get messy
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waysider
This is literally the stated premise of one of the foundational class sessions.
(Please don't ask me to dig out my syllabus to give a reference, I just ate breakfast.)
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OldSkool
They still teach it too. Same with great principle etc.
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T-Bone
considering the propaganda for wierwille's defense in Mike's posts - and his failure to engage in an honest discussion - I honestly wonder WHY Mike wastes his time at Grease Spot Cafe.
Maybe his time would be better spent if he went to work at TWI HQ.
Edited by T-Bonedoes my editor need an editor?
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Mike
It's not an "OR" something; it's "AND" something(s).
The other things, after receiving the Word somewhat accurately (like Jesus did), are retaining that Word in mind against opposing circumstances (like Jesus did), and then releasing that Word in love (like Jesus did).
If those three are not happening at all, then Christ-within (pneuma hagion) pretty much IS absent in their lives. I suppose we can coast on what we know and receive no more and have SOME presence of Christ within, but coasting on what we know means RETAINING. Sure, we can coast on retaining and not release, but that is a pretty stunted life with Christ. Also, the Eve Syndrome is sure to set in with such minimal renewed mind, and with adding/subtracting/changing, pretty soon there is no Word left to retain.
*/*/*/*
NEW TOPIC (very temporary) - The RRR process I outlined above was happening a lot in the 70s. I feel for those grads, like you I think, who took the class after the ministry meltdown in 1986. I can't blame you if you think the ANDs I supplied to answer your frustration above are futile. If I had not seen RRR working in my life and many others, I'd think it was futile also.
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Mike
Thanks Oldiesman. That ambassador angle is good. I had not thought of explaining it that way.
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OldSkool
It's not the same concept.
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Mike
I had said:
"I find it tragic that VPW was not the man he knew to be.
Had he been, many more could have been blessed and blessed bigger.
But as it was, many did get blessed, and God gave him a free pass, just like He wants to give us all one we don't deserve, and far more."
So, T-Bone, it looks to me that you hadn't picked up on my reference to 1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Or maybe you never considered that God is faithful in this, even when we are not. Or maybe you never considered that this cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness.
No, I was only thankfully expecting God to be faithful to forgive us all and let us serve, in spite of the sin in our lives. Of course we'd do better, MUCH better, if we avoided the sin. That is what I was lamenting. But I am still thankful for those days when VPW was in fellowship and serving us with what God taught him.
Are you sure this is not projection on your part, and that YOU are assuming a high role or something when you proclaim that my direction is mis-direction. I am directing us to consider that the absent Christ is a good thing, done by God to bless us. Did you see Oldiesman's post? Is that mis-direction, to bring up ambassador for Christ?
You get plenty of text out on what you think is proper direction, but does it jive with God's written Word? I think not. But that's just my direction. We will get this fully aired when Christ comes back.
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waysider
Would you say the same of Jeffrey Dahmer?
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OldSkool
This quote is from Mike...not Wayside. Mike God gave nobody a free pass. Jesus Christ paid the price...a rather hideous price...and based on that sacrifice we are declared righteous by our identification with Christ. Vpw got a lot of splaining to do on that day.
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T-Bone
Airing your special “talents” on Grease Spot Cafe seems pointless to me
However I bet TWI could use a hard sell salesman like you
have a nice day, Mike.
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Mike
Sheesh! WordWolf. You sure do embrace a lot of silly errors:
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Mike
Well, of course, it is the case that I am opposing what you think are most the most important points. We differ on what is an important priority here. I think it is most important that we all get more of God's Word into our lives. Ministers will always sin and screw up at times. Let's be thankful for all days we can have fellowship with God and His Son. The absent Christ helps us do that (another hint to one of the two moderately difficult questions).
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OldSkool
Your absent Christ is another Jesus. Have fun with that.
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T-Bone
But it’s obvious we are worlds apart on what we each mean when we say it’s important to get more of God’s Word into our lives.
You obviously equate PFAL with God’s Word and the way to get more of that in your life is to review PFAL.
But to end my post on a friendlier note - I would be more than happy to give TWI a good recommendation of you - since I honestly think you are very committed to keeping wierwille’s legacy alive.
peace out
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chockfull
Oh dear lord baby Jesus on a pogo stick. (Talladega Nights 2:18)
We we’re having a discussion on why the Ways interpretation of the Bible does NOT take the place of the absent Christ, and now we are playing Jeopardy with Mike with the category “Old Way Teachings”?
Negative Ghost Rider.
Bite me Mike. Take your disruptive scribe BS over to doctrinal and maybe somebody will answer you there.
Or maybe mods can move your commentary for the benefit of the thread and group.
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waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can't remember what it's called or where you store it.
Yep, the guy was a bona fide Bible scholar, a genuine research technician if ever I've met one.
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Mike
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