I get suspicious when so-and-so says he’ll bet his life on something, and he wants me to make the same wager. Knowing the character traits of so-and-so, I think he is just trying to blur distinctions and redefine words to his liking. It has nothing to do with substance – and everything to do with derailing a thread...
...and as they say on Shark Tank - "for that reason I'm out".
Someone's conviction that something is correct is proof of nothing other than that person believes that. People have believed all sorts of nonsense throughout history, and some people believe nonsense to this day.
It's not wrong to have convictions, but it's silly to think YOUR belief in something is going to convince ME that you're correct.
I was reading John 15 this morning, and this caught my attention:
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
Making a few points from the above chapter of John:
1.If Jesus Christ is absent – then none of this is applicable. How can a branch be connected to a vine if the vine is absent? Ah, but one may try arguing the branch is connected to the vine spiritually. Sure! But a spiritual unionnecessitates the joining of others who arepresent…Jesus Christ is not absent.
2. I submit that a pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International can have all the trappings of Christianity – but if they are not connected to Christ – they are lifeless and bear no fruit.
3. We are to remain in Christ’s love. How? By keeping His commands. And one of His commands is “Love each other as I have loved you”. Most followers of The Way Internationalpractice degrees of estrangementwhether they realize it or not. The most obvious being the way they deride anyChristian groups. Then to a lesser degree, anyone who is a follower of The Way international but doesn’t toe the line – will experience disaffection from the group – they might sense others - especially leadership are dissatisfied with them – even though they don’t say it outright.
wierwille used to say, “When it comes to The Word, I have no friends”. What is a friend? A person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection. I think wierwille was a malignant narcissist – the bond of mutual affection was the over-the-top admiration wierwille had of himself and the respect he demanded from others. See Dangerous Cult Leaders | Psychology Today
4.The Way Tree is a counterfeit of Christ as the vine and believers as the branches.In a pseudo-Christian cult, the cult-leader doubles as the gardener and the vine from the John 15 metaphor. The cult-leader prunes the branches – he/she will mark and avoid those who do not produce fruit which is recruiting new followers.
5. “You did not choose me, but I chose you”…This is a twisted version of how I got tricked into following a cult-leader. I bought into wierwille’s idea of The Word takes the place of the absent Christ…I did NOT choose a pathological liar, unabashed plagiarist, megalomaniac, malignant narcissist, drunkard, abusive, sexual predator – but that creep deliberately chose unsuspecting seekers of Jesus Christ like me as a target of his religious scam.
Edited by T-Bone I am the editor - and I am the poster - if you're a typo you're outta here! I prune you:)
These really can be fun. They are not perfect, but often very interesting, funny, clever, AND can even be instructive.
These could be characterized as a tangent off of the idea “What Would Jesus Do,” except they are more like “How Would Jesus Be Clever with Modern People.”
These play off the yearning we all have to hang out with Jesus and ask questions while we sip coffee with him at Starbucks, with him across the table from us.
Below is the website that cranks out hundreds of these comics. Some are not so great, but some are gems.
Interestingly, they encourage people copying and using them. They also sell coffee table books that are compilations of many such cartoons.
The SECOND fun item is MUCH MORE ODD and even bizarre, but in a good way. This too has lots of instruction to help up us understand the Absent Christ.
But first an introduction.
*/*/*/*/*
Many are concerned about their relationship with Christ suffering because of the way things went in the later years. My experience outside the Corps in the early years of TWI were rich in thought about Jesus; I was fearful that maybe Jesus WAS God after all and I would be in trouble. So I worked the Word a lot on this and especially on who Jesus said he was a lot.
I know the apostles did not want Jesus to go. They liked the relationship they had with Jesus, while he was in the flesh and with them personally. This is the kind of relationship I have seen lots of grads yearn for.
But God had a better TYPE of relationship available for the apostles on Pentecost, much to their natural chagrin at the Ascension.
What I see grads yearning for (and sometimes I have felt similarly) is the kind of relationship with Jesus where he could sit at the opposite side of the table at Starbucks while we sip coffee together, and chat about big things and about little things. "So, Jesus, tell me how you learned to speak such good English."
That is the kind of relationship the apostles had with him. It looks good at first, but you can also see its limitations, as they were recorded in the Gospels.
The apostles were fast to hand their problems and questions to Jesus to let him handle them. But they were slow to go to God directly (like Jesus did) and imitate Jesus solution techniques. THIS is the part that God wanted to improve on, and that is why he ascended Jesus into heaven. He raised the bar for us to aspire higher.
So at Starbucks, God wants something bigger than Jesus, the answer man, the solution man, sitting opposite you at a table there.
God's plan is for you to have Christ's hand inside your hand as you open the door to Starbucks, and Christ's legs in your legs as you walk in. For the people you can meet there YOU are the answer "man," and YOU are the solution "man" to those people inside because you have Christ in you.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
This SECOND FUN ITEM is an radio show,
called “The Jesus Christ Show.”
You can find this show on the Internet (I Heart Radio) every Sunday morning at 6 am Pacific Time, at KFI 640 AM radio, Los Angeles. This is a highly polished, very professional radio production, that has been on the air, I think, for 30 years.
You can also find podcasts of this show in various locations that go back years. I first started hearing this show in the 1990s when I was doing a lot of comedy radio work. I heard this show one Sunday morning and I thought it was very interesting.
This show is a combination of “radio theater” and regular radio “Call-in” talk shows, where they give out a number and people listening to the radio call in to talk on the air with the host.
The “radio theater” part is what gets very interesting.Back in the 1930s and 40s this art form was perfected for comedy and drama, and is sometimes called “Theater of the Mind.”
The host of the show, named Neil Saavedra, plays the role of Jesus in this theater, and people call in and pretend to talk to him as Jesus. There is zero comedy in this; it is pure and serious.
This guy, Neil Saavedra, is an all-around genius, and was a theology major in college, and then he went into radio. On Saturdays he does a four hour radio show on cooking, as he is also a master chef. I first heard him on the radio doing comedy, so he’s an actor also, and a superb one when he plays Jesus. He doesn’t get all the theology right but he gets enough of it right to make it a very interesting radio show.
Now it starts to get a little weird, but not too weird.
With Neil playing the role of Jesus, he answers people’s theology questions and is fast with the scriptures, and seriously counsels them on their lives’ problems.Sometimes he cleverly handles a heckler who sneaks past the telephone screeners. After so many years of doing this he has the role down pretty well.
What is a little weird is how serious some of the callers are; I mean people with serious problems, looking for serious help.It can get down into real life and this host really witnessing the real Word on the air.
At first I was occasionally very squeamish listening to this because I’m always very squeamish about adults playing like this. Those “murder mystery dinner theater” things that is a restaurant setting with real food make me squeamish just to talk about. Or the Renaissance Fairs where people get dressed up in costumes and start talking with “thee” and “thou” and pretending like they’re living 1000 years ago. I have always stayed away from those things, and I’m even laughing right now typing about them. I don’t see how adults could go there, but if I guess I had the right date coaxing me, I could get talked into it.
But I also had feelings this radio show that it could be blasphemous AND squeamish simultaneously, but it turned out not to be so. It’s a valuable learning experience.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Now what else is interesting about this radio show is that Neil Saavedra gets to really work the idea of being an ambassador for Christ and helping people in Christ’s place, instead of Christ, and doing it personally himself.
So Neil gets to learn this wonderful new relationship that was made available in this administration where he gets to play Jesus.
On top of this the people who call in to this show get to enjoy a little taste of the “across the table at Starbucks”type of relationship that people yearn for.
Neil’s little taste of playing Jesus is just like us having Christ’s tastebuds behind our tastebuds, tasting coffee at Starbucks where WE are that Jesus across the table for someone else.
*/*/*/*/*
This radio show calls to mind another theatrical production with interesting similarities.
Decades ago an actor named Hal Holbrook did a live theatrical Broadway-like ONE MAN play where he played Mark Twain (Samuel Clemons) on stage, and just talked to the audience like he really was Mark Twain.
Holbrook did a whole one-man show this way, and took it on tour for many years; decades I think.How well do you think he “knew” Mark Twain by playing him on stage every night for years?I can imagine he could well relate to many, many things in Mark Twain’s life.
THAT is the kind of relationship God had in mind for the apostles and for us. We get to “play” Jesus for others, and for far more than the entertainment value to the audience.
We actually take Jesus’ place while he is absent as his ambassadors.We can’t “leave it to Jesus” during this time; it is up to us to get the job done.If we PFAL grads are not up to the task of accurately representing Jesus to others, then God will findsome other believers to do it.
But seeking the “across the table at Starbucks” relationship with Jesus, the old kind of relationship that God ended, is not wise at this time.It is outside God’s will and Word, and we can get tricked into all sorts of counterfeit “Jesus relationships” that are of our own making or worse.
The SECOND fun item is MUCH MORE ODD and even bizarre, but in a good way. This too has lots of instruction to help up us understand the Absent Christ.
But first an introduction.
*/*/*/*/*
Many are concerned about their relationship with Christ suffering because of the way things went in the later years. My experience outside the Corps in the early years of TWI were rich in thought about Jesus; I was fearful that maybe Jesus WAS God after all and I would be in trouble. So I worked the Word a lot on this and especially on who Jesus said he was a lot.
I know the apostles did not want Jesus to go. They liked the relationship they had with Jesus, while he was in the flesh and with them personally. This is the kind of relationship I have seen lots of grads yearn for.
But God had a better TYPE of relationship available for the apostles on Pentecost, much to their natural chagrin at the Ascension.
What I see grads yearning for (and sometimes I have felt similarly) is the kind of relationship with Jesus where he could sit at the opposite side of the table at Starbucks while we sip coffee together, and chat about big things and about little things. "So, Jesus, tell me how you learned to speak such good English."
That is the kind of relationship the apostles had with him. It looks good at first, but you can also see its limitations, as they were recorded in the Gospels.
The apostles were fast to hand their problems and questions to Jesus to let him handle them. But they were slow to go to God directly (like Jesus did) and imitate Jesus solution techniques. THIS is the part that God wanted to improve on, and that is why he ascended Jesus into heaven. He raised the bar for us to aspire higher.
So at Starbucks, God wants something bigger than Jesus, the answer man, the solution man, sitting opposite you at a table there.
God's plan is for you to have Christ's hand inside your hand as you open the door to Starbucks, and Christ's legs in your legs as you walk in. For the people you can meet there YOU are the answer "man," and YOU are the solution "man" to those people inside because you have Christ in you.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
This SECOND FUN ITEM is an radio show,
called “The Jesus Christ Show.”
You can find this show on the Internet (I Heart Radio) every Sunday morning at 6 am Pacific Time, at KFI 640 AM radio, Los Angeles. This is a highly polished, very professional radio production, that has been on the air, I think, for 30 years.
You can also find podcasts of this show in various locations that go back years. I first started hearing this show in the 1990s when I was doing a lot of comedy radio work. I heard this show one Sunday morning and I thought it was very interesting.
This show is a combination of “radio theater” and regular radio “Call-in” talk shows, where they give out a number and people listening to the radio call in to talk on the air with the host.
The “radio theater” part is what gets very interesting.Back in the 1930s and 40s this art form was perfected for comedy and drama, and is sometimes called “Theater of the Mind.”
The host of the show, named Neil Saavedra, plays the role of Jesus in this theater, and people call in and pretend to talk to him as Jesus. There is zero comedy in this; it is pure and serious.
This guy, Neil Saavedra, is an all-around genius, and was a theology major in college, and then he went into radio. On Saturdays he does a four hour radio show on cooking, as he is also a master chef. I first heard him on the radio doing comedy, so he’s an actor also, and a superb one when he plays Jesus. He doesn’t get all the theology right but he gets enough of it right to make it a very interesting radio show.
Now it starts to get a little weird, but not too weird.
With Neil playing the role of Jesus, he answers people’s theology questions and is fast with the scriptures, and seriously counsels them on their lives’ problems.Sometimes he cleverly handles a heckler who sneaks past the telephone screeners. After so many years of doing this he has the role down pretty well.
What is a little weird is how serious some of the callers are; I mean people with serious problems, looking for serious help.It can get down into real life and this host really witnessing the real Word on the air.
At first I was occasionally very squeamish listening to this because I’m always very squeamish about adults playing like this. Those “murder mystery dinner theater” things that is a restaurant setting with real food make me squeamish just to talk about. Or the Renaissance Fairs where people get dressed up in costumes and start talking with “thee” and “thou” and pretending like they’re living 1000 years ago. I have always stayed away from those things, and I’m even laughing right now typing about them. I don’t see how adults could go there, but if I guess I had the right date coaxing me, I could get talked into it.
But I also had feelings this radio show that it could be blasphemous AND squeamish simultaneously, but it turned out not to be so. It’s a valuable learning experience.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Now what else is interesting about this radio show is that Neil Saavedra gets to really work the idea of being an ambassador for Christ and helping people in Christ’s place, instead of Christ, and doing it personally himself.
So Neil gets to learn this wonderful new relationship that was made available in this administration where he gets to play Jesus.
On top of this the people who call in to this show get to enjoy a little taste of the “across the table at Starbucks”type of relationship that people yearn for.
Neil’s little taste of playing Jesus is just like us having Christ’s tastebuds behind our tastebuds, tasting coffee at Starbucks where WE are that Jesus across the table for someone else.
*/*/*/*/*
This radio show calls to mind another theatrical production with interesting similarities.
Decades ago an actor named Hal Holbrook did a live theatrical Broadway-like ONE MAN play where he played Mark Twain (Samuel Clemons) on stage, and just talked to the audience like he really was Mark Twain.
Holbrook did a whole one-man show this way, and took it on tour for many years; decades I think.How well do you think he “knew” Mark Twain by playing him on stage every night for years?I can imagine he could well relate to many, many things in Mark Twain’s life.
THAT is the kind of relationship God had in mind for the apostles and for us. We get to “play” Jesus for others, and for far more than the entertainment value to the audience.
We actually take Jesus’ place while he is absent as his ambassadors.We can’t “leave it to Jesus” during this time; it is up to us to get the job done.If we PFAL grads are not up to the task of accurately representing Jesus to others, then God will findsome other believers to do it.
But seeking the “across the table at Starbucks” relationship with Jesus, the old kind of relationship that God ended, is not wise at this time.It is outside God’s will and Word, and we can get tricked into all sorts of counterfeit “Jesus relationships” that are of our own making or worse.
Didn't victor tell a little boy that Jesus was in his chest? Was it at an ROA? Victor asked the little boy, "Where is Jesus?" The boy pointed toward the sky. Victor reproved and corrected him immediately by shoving his finger in that poor little boy's chest saying, "Jesus is in there!"
That little boy is all grown up now. If you could meet that grown up boy at Starbucks today, you could have coffee with Jesus.
Where is that little boy today? That's the REAL question!
"At first I was occasionally very squeamish listening to this because I’m always very squeamish about adults playing like this. Those “murder mystery dinner theater” things that is a restaurant setting with real food make me squeamish just to talk about. Or the Renaissance Fairs where people get dressed up in costumes and start talking with “thee” and “thou” and pretending like they’re living 1000 years ago. I have always stayed away from those things, and I’m even laughing right now typing about them. I don’t see how adults could go there, but if I guess I had the right date coaxing me, I could get talked into it. "
=======================
Mike,
that sort of thing isn't entertaining for everyone, but it can be a lot of fun. The important part is a willingness to continue to actually be yourself- and to be willing to pretend otherwise for minutes or hours. People have been doing plays for millenia, and there's all sorts of "lets-pretend" where you either pretend while acting, or with a paper-and-pencil game (or online game). There's an incredible variety of them. You don't have to try any of them, but you don't have to be scared of any of them, either. In the 70s/80s, there was a public panic over Dungeons and Dragons. Like so many things that were predicted to destroy the US, it did not. It sure would have surprised Dave Arneson- one of its makers and former twi member.
Maybe you can try an Escape Room or something, and see if it makes you equally squeamish.
...that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
How much time have you put into thinking about this image that I have of being an ambassador for the absent Christ?
Yes, it is dangerous to the devil. That's why the devil wants people to merely have their Jesus sitting across the table from them, instead of living within them.
Well, if wierwille, mike, and radio theater say its so then it must be...
You got it backwards.
FIRST the scriptures say so, and that makes it true.
THEN mike and radio theater merely ILLUSTRATE the truth.
I never once heard VPW talk about actors on stage identifying with the role they played. That's just little old me doing the illustrating from the items of my everyday life.
"At first I was occasionally very squeamish listening to this because I’m always very squeamish about adults playing like this. Those “murder mystery dinner theater” things that is a restaurant setting with real food make me squeamish just to talk about. Or the Renaissance Fairs where people get dressed up in costumes and start talking with “thee” and “thou” and pretending like they’re living 1000 years ago. I have always stayed away from those things, and I’m even laughing right now typing about them. I don’t see how adults could go there, but if I guess I had the right date coaxing me, I could get talked into it. "
=======================
Mike,
that sort of thing isn't entertaining for everyone, but it can be a lot of fun. The important part is a willingness to continue to actually be yourself- and to be willing to pretend otherwise for minutes or hours. People have been doing plays for millenia, and there's all sorts of "lets-pretend" where you either pretend while acting, or with a paper-and-pencil game (or online game). There's an incredible variety of them. You don't have to try any of them, but you don't have to be scared of any of them, either. In the 70s/80s, there was a public panic over Dungeons and Dragons. Like so many things that were predicted to destroy the US, it did not. It sure would have surprised Dave Arneson- one of its makers and former twi member.
Maybe you can try an Escape Room or something, and see if it makes you equally squeamish.
LoL. Well I did press through the odd feelings first hearing the show gave me, so maybe I am ready now for that hot date to coax me into a murder mystery dinner theater.
FIRST the scriptures say so, and that makes it true.
THEN mike and radio theater merely ILLUSTRATE the truth.
I never once heard VPW talk about actors on stage identifying with the role they played. That's just little old me doing the illustrating from the items of my everyday life.
Method acting. That's what's being promoted as "Christ's eyes behind your eyes" type thinking. Where in the scriptures is it referenced that people should be method actors?
Method acting. That's what's being promoted as "Christ's eyes behind your eyes" type thinking. Where in the scriptures is it referenced that people should be method actors?
Stanslavski wept.
Burden of proof is on mike, but this type of stuff is one of many compelling reasons mike has no credibility. So Christ is absent and we replace him. Not we are witnesses and point the way to the risesn saviour. But we become Christ so we can leverage power to get stuff.
As I understand it, there are three basic components that must be combined to succeed as a method actor. First, one must adapt to the psychology of the character. At the same time, one must consider the sociological impact of the character. Lastly, one's behavioral characteristics must reflect the first two items.
Granted, this is only my own interpretation of how the process works.
As an advocate of method acting, VPW failed miserably, especially on item #2.
...that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
How much time have you put into thinking about this image that I have of being an ambassador for the absent Christ?
Yes, it is dangerous to the devil. That's why the devil wants people to merely have their Jesus sitting across the table from them, instead of living within them.
2 Tim 3:17 . . . There's probably a thread about this verse. Or the verse prior.
I think prior you mentioned this is how one can talk to Paul.
This holding of an image of oneself involves no real growth or self reflection.
If you hold a perfect image and it doesn't work when tested in the real world you will begin patchwork excuses and blame. If you are in a leadership or administrative position this magnifies the problem.
As I understand it, there are three basic components that must be combined to succeed as a method actor. First, one must adapt to the psychology of the character. At the same time, one must consider the sociological impact of the character. Lastly, one's behavioral characteristics must reflect the first two items.
Granted, this is only my own interpretation of how the process works.
As an advocate of method acting, VPW failed miserably, especially on item #2.
Thoughts, words and action going in the same way? The synchronized life?
For the record, the Starbucks Jesus is a concept you brought to the table...setting up a strawman attack on Starbucks Jesus doesn't prove your point, it actually shows how desperate you REALLY are to make wierwilles false doctrines fit with scripture.
We actually take Jesus’ place while he is absent as his ambassadors.
Hold the truck up....TWI teaches the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ...what new doctrine is this where we take the place of the absent Christ? How many more ways are you seeking to replace our Lord and savior, there Mike. So here you are again changing your position and moving the goal posts yet again.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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WordWolf
Someone's conviction that something is correct is proof of nothing other than that person believes that. People have believed all sorts of nonsense throughout history, and some people believe nonsense to this day.
It's not wrong to have convictions, but it's silly to think YOUR belief in something is going to convince ME that you're correct.
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WordWolf
"I have a different set of ground rules for how I approach an apparent error in the PFAL collaterals."
Right. Some of us remember.
"Dodge, deny, distract, but never admit an error is an error."
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T-Bone
I was reading John 15 this morning, and this caught my attention:
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
John 15
~ ~ ~ ~
Making a few points from the above chapter of John:
1.If Jesus Christ is absent – then none of this is applicable. How can a branch be connected to a vine if the vine is absent? Ah, but one may try arguing the branch is connected to the vine spiritually. Sure! But a spiritual union necessitates the joining of others who are present…Jesus Christ is not absent.
2. I submit that a pseudo-Christian cult like The Way International can have all the trappings of Christianity – but if they are not connected to Christ – they are lifeless and bear no fruit.
3. We are to remain in Christ’s love. How? By keeping His commands. And one of His commands is “Love each other as I have loved you”. Most followers of The Way International practice degrees of estrangement whether they realize it or not. The most obvious being the way they deride any Christian groups. Then to a lesser degree, anyone who is a follower of The Way international but doesn’t toe the line – will experience disaffection from the group – they might sense others - especially leadership are dissatisfied with them – even though they don’t say it outright.
wierwille used to say, “When it comes to The Word, I have no friends”. What is a friend? A person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection. I think wierwille was a malignant narcissist – the bond of mutual affection was the over-the-top admiration wierwille had of himself and the respect he demanded from others. See Dangerous Cult Leaders | Psychology Today
4.The Way Tree is a counterfeit of Christ as the vine and believers as the branches. In a pseudo-Christian cult, the cult-leader doubles as the gardener and the vine from the John 15 metaphor. The cult-leader prunes the branches – he/she will mark and avoid those who do not produce fruit which is recruiting new followers.
5. “You did not choose me, but I chose you”…This is a twisted version of how I got tricked into following a cult-leader. I bought into wierwille’s idea of The Word takes the place of the absent Christ …I did NOT choose a pathological liar, unabashed plagiarist, megalomaniac, malignant narcissist, drunkard, abusive, sexual predator – but that creep deliberately chose unsuspecting seekers of Jesus Christ like me as a target of his religious scam.
Edited by T-BoneI am the editor - and I am the poster - if you're a typo you're outta here! I prune you:)
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Mike
I have TWO FUN ITEMS to share.
The first item is a set of 2 cartoons.
These really can be fun. They are not perfect, but often very interesting, funny, clever, AND can even be instructive.
These could be characterized as a tangent off of the idea “What Would Jesus Do,” except they are more like “How Would Jesus Be Clever with Modern People.”
These play off the yearning we all have to hang out with Jesus and ask questions while we sip coffee with him at Starbucks, with him across the table from us.
Below is the website that cranks out hundreds of these comics. Some are not so great, but some are gems.
Interestingly, they encourage people copying and using them. They also sell coffee table books that are compilations of many such cartoons.
http://www.radiofreebabylon.com/
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Mike
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Mike
The SECOND fun item is MUCH MORE ODD and even bizarre, but in a good way. This too has lots of instruction to help up us understand the Absent Christ.
But first an introduction.
*/*/*/*/*
Many are concerned about their relationship with Christ suffering because of the way things went in the later years. My experience outside the Corps in the early years of TWI were rich in thought about Jesus; I was fearful that maybe Jesus WAS God after all and I would be in trouble. So I worked the Word a lot on this and especially on who Jesus said he was a lot.
I know the apostles did not want Jesus to go. They liked the relationship they had with Jesus, while he was in the flesh and with them personally. This is the kind of relationship I have seen lots of grads yearn for.
But God had a better TYPE of relationship available for the apostles on Pentecost, much to their natural chagrin at the Ascension.
What I see grads yearning for (and sometimes I have felt similarly) is the kind of relationship with Jesus where he could sit at the opposite side of the table at Starbucks while we sip coffee together, and chat about big things and about little things. "So, Jesus, tell me how you learned to speak such good English."
That is the kind of relationship the apostles had with him. It looks good at first, but you can also see its limitations, as they were recorded in the Gospels.
The apostles were fast to hand their problems and questions to Jesus to let him handle them. But they were slow to go to God directly (like Jesus did) and imitate Jesus solution techniques. THIS is the part that God wanted to improve on, and that is why he ascended Jesus into heaven. He raised the bar for us to aspire higher.
So at Starbucks, God wants something bigger than Jesus, the answer man, the solution man, sitting opposite you at a table there.
God's plan is for you to have Christ's hand inside your hand as you open the door to Starbucks, and Christ's legs in your legs as you walk in. For the people you can meet there YOU are the answer "man," and YOU are the solution "man" to those people inside because you have Christ in you.
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
This SECOND FUN ITEM is an radio show,
called “The Jesus Christ Show.”
You can find this show on the Internet (I Heart Radio) every Sunday morning at 6 am Pacific Time, at KFI 640 AM radio, Los Angeles. This is a highly polished, very professional radio production, that has been on the air, I think, for 30 years.
You can also find podcasts of this show in various locations that go back years. I first started hearing this show in the 1990s when I was doing a lot of comedy radio work. I heard this show one Sunday morning and I thought it was very interesting.
This show is a combination of “radio theater” and regular radio “Call-in” talk shows, where they give out a number and people listening to the radio call in to talk on the air with the host.
The “radio theater” part is what gets very interesting. Back in the 1930s and 40s this art form was perfected for comedy and drama, and is sometimes called “Theater of the Mind.”
The host of the show, named Neil Saavedra, plays the role of Jesus in this theater, and people call in and pretend to talk to him as Jesus. There is zero comedy in this; it is pure and serious.
This guy, Neil Saavedra, is an all-around genius, and was a theology major in college, and then he went into radio. On Saturdays he does a four hour radio show on cooking, as he is also a master chef. I first heard him on the radio doing comedy, so he’s an actor also, and a superb one when he plays Jesus. He doesn’t get all the theology right but he gets enough of it right to make it a very interesting radio show.
Now it starts to get a little weird, but not too weird.
With Neil playing the role of Jesus, he answers people’s theology questions and is fast with the scriptures, and seriously counsels them on their lives’ problems. Sometimes he cleverly handles a heckler who sneaks past the telephone screeners. After so many years of doing this he has the role down pretty well.
What is a little weird is how serious some of the callers are; I mean people with serious problems, looking for serious help. It can get down into real life and this host really witnessing the real Word on the air.
At first I was occasionally very squeamish listening to this because I’m always very squeamish about adults playing like this. Those “murder mystery dinner theater” things that is a restaurant setting with real food make me squeamish just to talk about. Or the Renaissance Fairs where people get dressed up in costumes and start talking with “thee” and “thou” and pretending like they’re living 1000 years ago. I have always stayed away from those things, and I’m even laughing right now typing about them. I don’t see how adults could go there, but if I guess I had the right date coaxing me, I could get talked into it.
But I also had feelings this radio show that it could be blasphemous AND squeamish simultaneously, but it turned out not to be so. It’s a valuable learning experience.
*/*/*/*/*/*
Now what else is interesting about this radio show is that Neil Saavedra gets to really work the idea of being an ambassador for Christ and helping people in Christ’s place, instead of Christ, and doing it personally himself.
So Neil gets to learn this wonderful new relationship that was made available in this administration where he gets to play Jesus.
On top of this the people who call in to this show get to enjoy a little taste of the “across the table at Starbucks” type of relationship that people yearn for.
Neil’s little taste of playing Jesus is just like us having Christ’s tastebuds behind our tastebuds, tasting coffee at Starbucks where WE are that Jesus across the table for someone else.
*/*/*/*/*
This radio show calls to mind another theatrical production with interesting similarities.
Decades ago an actor named Hal Holbrook did a live theatrical Broadway-like ONE MAN play where he played Mark Twain (Samuel Clemons) on stage, and just talked to the audience like he really was Mark Twain.
Holbrook did a whole one-man show this way, and took it on tour for many years; decades I think. How well do you think he “knew” Mark Twain by playing him on stage every night for years? I can imagine he could well relate to many, many things in Mark Twain’s life.
THAT is the kind of relationship God had in mind for the apostles and for us. We get to “play” Jesus for others, and for far more than the entertainment value to the audience.
We actually take Jesus’ place while he is absent as his ambassadors. We can’t “leave it to Jesus” during this time; it is up to us to get the job done. If we PFAL grads are not up to the task of accurately representing Jesus to others, then God will find some other believers to do it.
But seeking the “across the table at Starbucks” relationship with Jesus, the old kind of relationship that God ended, is not wise at this time. It is outside God’s will and Word, and we can get tricked into all sorts of counterfeit “Jesus relationships” that are of our own making or worse.
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OldSkool
Well, if wierwille, mike, and radio theater say its so then it must be...
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Bolshevik
You are literally telling people to be perfect.
Demand for perfection is utopian thinking.
This leads to demand for control.
And control leads to whining about groupthink.
This image you have to be a Jesus is dangerous.
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Nathan_Jr
Didn't victor tell a little boy that Jesus was in his chest? Was it at an ROA? Victor asked the little boy, "Where is Jesus?" The boy pointed toward the sky. Victor reproved and corrected him immediately by shoving his finger in that poor little boy's chest saying, "Jesus is in there!"
That little boy is all grown up now. If you could meet that grown up boy at Starbucks today, you could have coffee with Jesus.
Where is that little boy today? That's the REAL question!
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WordWolf
"At first I was occasionally very squeamish listening to this because I’m always very squeamish about adults playing like this. Those “murder mystery dinner theater” things that is a restaurant setting with real food make me squeamish just to talk about. Or the Renaissance Fairs where people get dressed up in costumes and start talking with “thee” and “thou” and pretending like they’re living 1000 years ago. I have always stayed away from those things, and I’m even laughing right now typing about them. I don’t see how adults could go there, but if I guess I had the right date coaxing me, I could get talked into it. "
=======================
Mike,
that sort of thing isn't entertaining for everyone, but it can be a lot of fun. The important part is a willingness to continue to actually be yourself- and to be willing to pretend otherwise for minutes or hours. People have been doing plays for millenia, and there's all sorts of "lets-pretend" where you either pretend while acting, or with a paper-and-pencil game (or online game). There's an incredible variety of them. You don't have to try any of them, but you don't have to be scared of any of them, either. In the 70s/80s, there was a public panic over Dungeons and Dragons. Like so many things that were predicted to destroy the US, it did not. It sure would have surprised Dave Arneson- one of its makers and former twi member.
Maybe you can try an Escape Room or something, and see if it makes you equally squeamish.
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Mike
...that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
How much time have you put into thinking about this image that I have of being an ambassador for the absent Christ?
Yes, it is dangerous to the devil. That's why the devil wants people to merely have their Jesus sitting across the table from them, instead of living within them.
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Mike
You got it backwards.
FIRST the scriptures say so, and that makes it true.
THEN mike and radio theater merely ILLUSTRATE the truth.
I never once heard VPW talk about actors on stage identifying with the role they played. That's just little old me doing the illustrating from the items of my everyday life.
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Mike
LoL. Well I did press through the odd feelings first hearing the show gave me, so maybe I am ready now for that hot date to coax me into a murder mystery dinner theater.
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Nathan_Jr
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OldSkool
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waysider
Method acting. That's what's being promoted as "Christ's eyes behind your eyes" type thinking. Where in the scriptures is it referenced that people should be method actors?
Stanslavski wept.
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OldSkool
Burden of proof is on mike, but this type of stuff is one of many compelling reasons mike has no credibility. So Christ is absent and we replace him. Not we are witnesses and point the way to the risesn saviour. But we become Christ so we can leverage power to get stuff.
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waysider
As I understand it, there are three basic components that must be combined to succeed as a method actor. First, one must adapt to the psychology of the character. At the same time, one must consider the sociological impact of the character. Lastly, one's behavioral characteristics must reflect the first two items.
Granted, this is only my own interpretation of how the process works.
As an advocate of method acting, VPW failed miserably, especially on item #2.
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Bolshevik
2 Tim 3:17 . . . There's probably a thread about this verse. Or the verse prior.
I think prior you mentioned this is how one can talk to Paul.
This holding of an image of oneself involves no real growth or self reflection.
If you hold a perfect image and it doesn't work when tested in the real world you will begin patchwork excuses and blame. If you are in a leadership or administrative position this magnifies the problem.
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Bolshevik
Being inspired by an image may be different.
I'm reasonably certain in TWI results were expected to be instantaneous. Which is insane.
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Bolshevik
Thoughts, words and action going in the same way? The synchronized life?
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waysider
TWI's version was more like the sycophant life.
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OldSkool
For the record, the Starbucks Jesus is a concept you brought to the table...setting up a strawman attack on Starbucks Jesus doesn't prove your point, it actually shows how desperate you REALLY are to make wierwilles false doctrines fit with scripture.
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OldSkool
Hold the truck up....TWI teaches the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ...what new doctrine is this where we take the place of the absent Christ? How many more ways are you seeking to replace our Lord and savior, there Mike. So here you are again changing your position and moving the goal posts yet again.
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