"the word = YourBelieving+YourWalk+ChristInYou+TheBible"
Another problem with that equation is The Bible wasn't put together for centuries following Paul. I think the Roman Catholics put some canon together and the Protestants took it further.
When folks 'received the word' 2000 years ago what were they receiving?
When folks 'received the word' 2000 years ago what were they receiving?
Scrolls and such containing what we know as the Old Testament we're kept in the Synagogues and Temple. Those scrolls we're not an exact match of our Old Testament, books have been removed. The Septuagint was the text of the day so to speak. Most likely Jesus, and most others learned from the Septuagint.
The New Testament was compiled from cyclical letters. Nobody in the first century had the Bible as we have it. The first Bible wasn't printed until 1455 in Germany: The Gutenberg Bible.
There's been various Canons developed. Some of the books that were dropped from our Canon likely shouldn't have been.
Then there were the oral traditions that were passed down amongst Israel...many of those traditions were codified into modern day Judaism. Same old schtick as wierwille. The pharisees told people they needed their traditions to interpret the Torah. There was also the Babylonian Talmud. Jesus Christ referred to the oral traditions as well as the Babylonian Talmud as the traditions of men. He was against them fully.
Another problem with that equation is The Bible wasn't put together for centuries following Paul. I think the Roman Catholics put some canon together and the Protestants took it further.
When folks 'received the word' 2000 years ago what were they receiving?
It's laughable the manner in which the way international romanticizes our modern day Bibles. They keep their followers ignorant of history and try to spiritualize and worship a book. Personally, I stand in awe of the Bible and that's from studying it for 28 years or so. The more I study and just read what is written the easier it is to peel off wierwilles doctrines and fundamentalist ideals.
Your a highly intelligent individual so you can see that what the fundie crowd says doesn't match reality. It leaves one grasping fir straws....well speaking for myself of course. I've felt that way at times.
Scrolls and such containing what we know as the Old Testament we're kept in the Synagogues and Temple. Those scrolls we're not an exact match of our Old Testament, books have been removed. The Septuagint was the text of the day so to speak. Most likely Jesus, and most others learned from the Septuagint.
The New Testament was compiled from cyclical letters. Nobody in the first century had the Bible as we have it. The first Bible wasn't printed until 1455 in Germany: The Gutenberg Bible.
There's been various Canons developed. Some of the books that were dropped from our Canon likely shouldn't have been.
Then there were the oral traditions that were passed down amongst Israel...many of those traditions were codified into modern day Judaism. Same old schtick as wierwille. The pharisees told people they needed their traditions to interpret the Torah. There was also the Babylonian Talmud. Jesus Christ referred to the oral traditions as well as the Babylonian Talmud as the traditions of men. He was against them fully.
It makes more sense to me at this time to say Jesus Christ is The Word. When people were spreading "the message", "the word", they were talking about Jesus Christ. Not scrolls, although scrolls were likely involved.
John 1:1 makes is clear The Word was God. Jesus said he was The Truth. Not a book. Thy Word is Truth.
The Book's subject is Jesus Christ, The Word. I can imagine over time people confusing The Book with The Word. Words are in books. Kinda like a retemory mixes ideas up via association.
(I'd probably have to say The Trinity makes more sense than it doesn't)
It makes more sense to me at this time to say Jesus Christ is The Word. When people were spreading "the message", "the word", they were talking about Jesus Christ. Not scrolls, although scrolls were likely involved.
John 1:1 makes is clear The Word was God. Jesus said he was The Truth. Not a book. Thy Word is Truth.
The Book's subject is Jesus Christ, The Word. I can imagine over time people confusing The Book with The Word. Words are in books. Kinda like a retemory mixes ideas up via association.
(I'd probably have to say The Trinity makes more sense than it doesn't)
What I am saying is that VPW was not responsible for Jesus being absent from so much TWI thought and activity. He fought against that.
He used that phrase once, and constantly referred to the spiritual presence of Christ within.
*/*/*/*
I found in the archives this absent Christ debate raging 20 years ago just like it is today. Below is my re-write of a post I made April 5, 2003.
The original post can be found at:
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
The TWI Verbal Tradition (TVT) got way out of hand on LOTS of things: grace/license, guidelines/law, discipline, tough love, etc., just like all other churches. The first century church got out of balance this way and eventually became RC.
But I've found a most beautiful chapter in Dr's last book about Zacchaeus. It’s called ‘Climbing High to Seek Truth.’ It really dispels the myth that Dr’s teaching was bereft of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That DID happen in TVT, but not Dr’s teachings.
Here are some of VPW's last words to us, from that last year, and his last book.
*/*/*/*
On page 207 he writes:
As we pass through life, we must climb ever higher and higher in our hearts and minds with the greatness of God’s Word. We must always keep progressing to see more and more of God’s Word and His promises manifested in our daily lives.
Then on pages 212-213 we see:
All I know is that the Word of God says Zacchaeus was a publican and he was rich. We learn one other thing about Zacchaeus in this account and that is that he was motivated by a wonderful desire: He wanted to see Jesus.
Luke 19:3
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus - who he was. Perhaps it was simple curiosity prompting him. The text doesn't say. But whatever the reason, at least he wanted to see Jesus. I wish that today, across our nation, there were more people who wanted to see Jesus. When people ask to see Jesus today, we've got to show him. When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word.
Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus, but he couldn't. The reason he couldn't see him or get to him was for "the press." That doesn't mean the news media, such as newspaper, radio, or television reporters. "Press" means "numbers of people." There were so many people surrounding Jesus that Zacchaeus couldn't get a glimpse of him.
Verse 3:
. . . because he was little of stature.
Zacchaeus was short. The biggest thing about him was his desire to see Jesus.
Verse 4:
And he [Zacchaeus] ran before [ahead of where Jesus was walking], and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him: for he [Jesus] was to pass that way.
Zacchaeus climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to get a view of this noted person, Jesus, whom people were talking about. Zacchaeus took the necessary action to fulfill his desire. That's very important. If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree.
*/*/*/*
Ten times I count the phrase see Jesus in these two pages.
Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing to SEE JESUS that he’s urging with us OLGs to do. It’s for other grads too.
*/*/*/*
On pages 214 and 215 he writes:
I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God’s Word. Those people who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall (absolutely) be filled. That’s right. What an example of fulfilling this promise from this record in God’s Word.
Again, he’s telling us to hunger for the Lord Jesus Christ.
*/*/*/*
On pages 221 and 222 he writes:
Jesus Christ is a physician of the soul. A physician is not needed when one is healthy. Jesus Christ comes to seek and to save, to give wholeness to those in spiritual need. He seeks those who are lost-men and women who need the Lord Jesus Christ. He has no problem extending himself to you and to me, because we are the people he came to seek and to save. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus Christ is "able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him." Jesus Christ is always ready to meet you. He met Zacchaeus, who had climbed up in a tree to see him. Wherever there are men and women who really want to hear, Jesus Christ is always there.
There is no one so low that the arms of the Almighty are not underneath him. There is no one so high that the arms of the Almighty are not over him. And there is no one other than His Son who can save people. For there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved.
Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he’ The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is to come to God's Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation.
What do you need to hear God's Word. Jesus Christ was that Word, the Living Word, who met Zacchaeus that day in Jericho. And he brought Zacchaeus to the great reality of being a believer, because Jesus was willing to teach him and Zacchaeus was meek to learn. If you want to experience the truth of God's Word, climb high to seek truth. God always has and always will seek out and teach those who are looking to Jesus Christ as their savior and lord.
*/*/*/*
When all these words were coming out in print, we OLGs were all on our own trips, all imbalanced in one way or another, and these things slipped right by us (or out of us).
I tried to show some of these kinds of things to the CES bulldozers in the early 90’s after they had been blowing the whistle on how the TVT had lost track of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I believed them for a few years, until I found a ton of things like these quotes.
The reason I believed them at first, in the late 80’s, is because I clearly saw it the TVTs, but I hadn’t yet learned the VAST separation, the VAST difference between what got put into print from what went on behind the scenes. This is the case for other things that got out of balance besides the lordship deal.
The print record, and also the tapes, has lots of things that we OLGs were learning how to tune out. We would say things in our heads like: “Yeah, yeah, that’s just Dr”or “How many times have I heard THIS before” or “He doesn’t really mean that. He just misspoke, but I’ve a hot line to the Father and I’ll correct it immediately and just forget about it.”
Us OLGs have some accounting to do.
How come we didn’t see the VAST difference between TVT and the Word of God that God was teaching to Dr and Dr was getting into print. How come we didn’t see that VAST difference?Because we ended up on the victim end of the Sower-and-Seed, that’s how! We drifted away from the pure Word in PFAL and went back to tradition and KJV "research" on our own with no 1942 promise to back us up. And our fruit tells exactly which 3 of the 4 "Sower and Seed" victim categories we fit into, when “all nine all the time” waa the standard which we were shooting for.
We got work to do. Thank God for His patience with us.
Mike, actions speak louder than words, especially inaccurate ones. vp's teaching about wanting others to see Jesus falls flat on its face by everyone who knows how he utterly failed to do this and what a total hypocrite he was. Their testimonies to this fact are found throughout the threads on GSC.
After reading the article a few times, I see that vp repeatedly links up his words about Jesus to the "word."
When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word.
If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree.
I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God’s Word.
The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is to come to God's Word.The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation.
For me, the many times vp uses "God's word" or "the word" are solely an advertisement for twi since twi markets itself as being the only group having the accuracy and integrity of the "word" because of him. For someone like me who no longer respects him as a researcher, writer, teacher, a Christian believer or even as a man, this chapter is a dud.
I'm curious if this "the Bible is good for something" business represents an ACTUAL change from "the Bible is 'unreliable fragments' and 'tattered remnants' " and Mike's actually changed his position to something healthier,
or if it's all smokescreen and Mike still believes the Bible's "unreliable fragments" and "tattered remnants" and he's intentionally lying to tell people what they want to hear.
I won't know because, when I asked Mike if he's actually changed position, he tried to GASLIGHT me and pretend he never badmouthed the Bible before.
At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Mike can't remember he ever said that, has changed his position, and believes he now, retroactively, has ALWAYS had this new position. His grasp of what the Bible says, the collaterals say, and what posts here say have always been tenuous at best.
Man, WW!It cracks me up, how much intrigue you and a few others want to inject into me.I’d be a raving lunatic if I had half the schemes you amateur Hemlock Stones wannabees are always trying to pin on me.I’d NEVER be able to keep track of it all!!!
*/*/*
So you think my memory on the tattered references had faded or changed or something else in your soap opera menu?
Can YOU tell me why I so heavily promoted the idea that the Bible we have today is a scholarly re-construction of tattered remnants?
I remember the reason why, well.Do you?
Do you want me to bring that card out again, to squash your foolish diabolical conspiracy theories of me being diabolical about squashing these matters regarding tattered remnants?
I got VERY practiced at presenting that unfortunate fact: that the Bible was essentially lost and scrambled by the the First and Second Century church, under the adversary’s direction. This process started before the deaths of the apostles.
If God appoints us to take Jesus' place while he is hidden, then who are you to forbid God?
Mike, You have made such a doctrine about this hidden Christ based on Acts 1:9 that I wanted to show you the following:
1) The word "hid" is used only for the ascension in Acts 1:9. As far as I know no verse after that refers to Jesus as being hidden as you do above.
2) According to the the 32 versions or translations of this verse shown on Bible Hub, the word "hid" is used in 9 of them while "taken up or received him" is used in 23.
3) However, compare this to verse 11, “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven,” and you'll find that all 32 versions or translations shown on Bible Hub say either "has been taken" or "was received."
So out of the 64 usages of either the Greek word "hupolambanó" (meaning to take or bear up, receive) in verse 9 or "analambanó" (meaning to take up, raise) in verse 11, "hid" is only found 9 times.
Very weak support to build a misleading and confusing doctrine on.
By the way, T-Bone quoted some very interesting things about this cloud a few posts back. It was under his heading "Say, how about that cloud!"
Mike, You have made such a doctrine about this hidden Christ based on Acts 1:9 that I wanted to show you the following:
1) The word "hid" is used only for the ascension in Acts 1:9. As far as I know no verse after that refers to Jesus as being hidden as you do above.
2) According to the the 32 versions or translations of this verse shown on Bible Hub, the word "hid" is used in 9 of them while "taken up or received him" is used in 23.
3) However, compare this to verse 11, “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven,” and you'll find that all 32 versions or translations shown on Bible Hub say either "has been taken" or "was received."
So out of the 64 usages of either the Greek word "hupolambanó" (meaning to take or bear up, receive) in verse 9 or "analambanó" (meaning to take up, raise) in verse 11, "hid" is only found 9 times.
Very weak support to build a misleading and confusing doctrine on.
By the way, T-Bone quoted some very interesting things about this cloud a few posts back. It was under his heading "Say, how about that cloud!"
Besides hidden, here is another way the absent Christ is described in the Bible.
2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
How many more ways can we find in the Bible that describe the post-Ascension to pre-Return ministry of Jesus Christ?
Seated at the right hand of God, as opposed to his previous walk on Earth.
Appointing us as his ambassadors. It's kinda silly to have an ambassador if you are present.
SOMETHING happened on the day of the Ascension that changed things about Jesus.
Please describe to me what you think happened to the personal presence of Jesus after that cloud hid him.
Put yourself in the shoes of his apostles watching him. One minute he is with them and the next minute.... [please fill in what happened here].
Mike, You have made such a doctrine about this hidden Christ based on Acts 1:9 that I wanted...
It is not just Acts 1. There is far more.
Look at all the references here from John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I goto prepare a place for you.
3 And if I goand prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I goye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I gounto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come againunto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.
And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 2
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 7
12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Acts 26
16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
I Corinthians 3
18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Ephesians 2
~~~~~~~~~ -~~~~~~~
It’s puzzling why some may wrestle with the idea of interagency of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It may be they still wrestle with comprehending the divine attributes of Jesus Christ - that He is both transcendent AND immanent.
Man, WW!It cracks me up, how much intrigue you and a few others want to inject into me.I’d be a raving lunatic if I had half the schemes you amateur Hemlock Stones wannabees are always trying to pin on me.I’d NEVER be able to keep track of it all!!!
*/*/*
So you think my memory on the tattered references had faded or changed or something else in your soap opera menu?
Can YOU tell me why I so heavily promoted the idea that the Bible we have today is a scholarly re-construction of tattered remnants?
I remember the reason why, well.Do you?
Do you want me to bring that card out again, to squash your foolish diabolical conspiracy theories of me being diabolical about squashing these matters regarding tattered remnants?
I got VERY practiced at presenting that unfortunate fact: that the Bible was essentially lost and scrambled by the the First and Second Century church, under the adversary’s direction. This process started before the deaths of the apostles.
The reason is that it gives you something to do. If it doesn't exist- and it doesn't- then you've wasted your time forming the rest of your doctrine- and you have. This means you have nothing special to offer everyone else- and you don't.
The most embarrassing part of this doctrine you're so proud you're still pushing is how it's probably the most visible self-contradiction of your own doctrine. You can't give it up without losing what you think makes you unique, and you can't keep it and be in harmony with the Orange Book.
According to your doctrine, the Bible's "essentially lost" (your words, not mine.) In the Orange Book, vpw very clearly outlined how WE were to take modern Bibles, "compare one verse with another verse" and so on, and he said he was "confident" that "WE" could finish with an authoritative "THUS SAITH THE LORD." I know you're keen to pretend that isn't a blatant and obvious contradiction, but that's two diametrically-opposed doctrines. You have to claim "well, vpw didn't mean "we" when he said "we" there, or that the entire passage from the Orange Book doesn't apply at all.
Man, WW!It cracks me up, how much intrigue you and a few others want to inject into me.I’d be a raving lunatic if I had half the schemes you amateur Hemlock Stones wannabees are always trying to pin on me.I’d NEVER be able to keep track of it all!!!
Mike, you used a Firesign Theatre skit here when you referenced Hemlock Stone. Are you aware that a real Hemlock Stone exists and that it's not just a simple twisting of the name Sherlock Holmes for humorous effect? Well, maybe you are and maybe you aren't. Are you comparing GSC posters to a historic landmark or to a fictional character of Firesign Theatre design?
Mike, dont you remember in Some Dumbass Book Wierwille Wrote (SDBWW) on page 362.341? Surely you remember? It says in the pflap class as well but if you goto SDBWW it should jog your memory as it seems you have forgotten. Your not being a very good student mike.
It’s puzzling why some may wrestle with the idea of interagency of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It may be they still wrestle with comprehending the divine attributes of Jesus Christ - that He is both transcendent AND immanent.
It goes to show he doesnt know Jesus Christ beyond a namesake to push prayers while he focuses his own efforts pretending he is God Jr with the law of believing.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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Bolshevik
Another problem with that equation is The Bible wasn't put together for centuries following Paul. I think the Roman Catholics put some canon together and the Protestants took it further.
When folks 'received the word' 2000 years ago what were they receiving?
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OldSkool
Scrolls and such containing what we know as the Old Testament we're kept in the Synagogues and Temple. Those scrolls we're not an exact match of our Old Testament, books have been removed. The Septuagint was the text of the day so to speak. Most likely Jesus, and most others learned from the Septuagint.
The New Testament was compiled from cyclical letters. Nobody in the first century had the Bible as we have it. The first Bible wasn't printed until 1455 in Germany: The Gutenberg Bible.
There's been various Canons developed. Some of the books that were dropped from our Canon likely shouldn't have been.
Then there were the oral traditions that were passed down amongst Israel...many of those traditions were codified into modern day Judaism. Same old schtick as wierwille. The pharisees told people they needed their traditions to interpret the Torah. There was also the Babylonian Talmud. Jesus Christ referred to the oral traditions as well as the Babylonian Talmud as the traditions of men. He was against them fully.
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OldSkool
It's laughable the manner in which the way international romanticizes our modern day Bibles. They keep their followers ignorant of history and try to spiritualize and worship a book. Personally, I stand in awe of the Bible and that's from studying it for 28 years or so. The more I study and just read what is written the easier it is to peel off wierwilles doctrines and fundamentalist ideals.
Your a highly intelligent individual so you can see that what the fundie crowd says doesn't match reality. It leaves one grasping fir straws....well speaking for myself of course. I've felt that way at times.
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Bolshevik
It makes more sense to me at this time to say Jesus Christ is The Word. When people were spreading "the message", "the word", they were talking about Jesus Christ. Not scrolls, although scrolls were likely involved.
John 1:1 makes is clear The Word was God. Jesus said he was The Truth. Not a book. Thy Word is Truth.
The Book's subject is Jesus Christ, The Word. I can imagine over time people confusing The Book with The Word. Words are in books. Kinda like a retemory mixes ideas up via association.
(I'd probably have to say The Trinity makes more sense than it doesn't)
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OldSkool
Dude...we are on the exact same page.
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waysider
Hey, listen. If the King James was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.
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OldSkool
Apparently, according to some very deluded individuals, he preferred the PFLAP Orange Book...
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Charity
Mike, actions speak louder than words, especially inaccurate ones. vp's teaching about wanting others to see Jesus falls flat on its face by everyone who knows how he utterly failed to do this and what a total hypocrite he was. Their testimonies to this fact are found throughout the threads on GSC.
After reading the article a few times, I see that vp repeatedly links up his words about Jesus to the "word."
When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word.
If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree.
I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God’s Word.
The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is to come to God's Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation.
For me, the many times vp uses "God's word" or "the word" are solely an advertisement for twi since twi markets itself as being the only group having the accuracy and integrity of the "word" because of him. For someone like me who no longer respects him as a researcher, writer, teacher, a Christian believer or even as a man, this chapter is a dud.
Edited by CharityLink to comment
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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Mike
Man, WW! It cracks me up, how much intrigue you and a few others want to inject into me. I’d be a raving lunatic if I had half the schemes you amateur Hemlock Stones wannabees are always trying to pin on me. I’d NEVER be able to keep track of it all!!!
*/*/*
So you think my memory on the tattered references had faded or changed or something else in your soap opera menu?
Can YOU tell me why I so heavily promoted the idea that the Bible we have today is a scholarly re-construction of tattered remnants?
I remember the reason why, well. Do you?
Do you want me to bring that card out again, to squash your foolish diabolical conspiracy theories of me being diabolical about squashing these matters regarding tattered remnants?
I got VERY practiced at presenting that unfortunate fact: that the Bible was essentially lost and scrambled by the the First and Second Century church, under the adversary’s direction. This process started before the deaths of the apostles.
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Mike
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Charity
Mike, You have made such a doctrine about this hidden Christ based on Acts 1:9 that I wanted to show you the following:
1) The word "hid" is used only for the ascension in Acts 1:9. As far as I know no verse after that refers to Jesus as being hidden as you do above.
2) According to the the 32 versions or translations of this verse shown on Bible Hub, the word "hid" is used in 9 of them while "taken up or received him" is used in 23.
3) However, compare this to verse 11, “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven,” and you'll find that all 32 versions or translations shown on Bible Hub say either "has been taken" or "was received."
So out of the 64 usages of either the Greek word "hupolambanó" (meaning to take or bear up, receive) in verse 9 or "analambanó" (meaning to take up, raise) in verse 11, "hid" is only found 9 times.
Very weak support to build a misleading and confusing doctrine on.
By the way, T-Bone quoted some very interesting things about this cloud a few posts back. It was under his heading "Say, how about that cloud!"
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Mike
Besides hidden, here is another way the absent Christ is described in the Bible.
2 Cor 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
How many more ways can we find in the Bible that describe the post-Ascension to pre-Return ministry of Jesus Christ?
Seated at the right hand of God, as opposed to his previous walk on Earth.
Appointing us as his ambassadors. It's kinda silly to have an ambassador if you are present.
SOMETHING happened on the day of the Ascension that changed things about Jesus.
Please describe to me what you think happened to the personal presence of Jesus after that cloud hid him.
Put yourself in the shoes of his apostles watching him. One minute he is with them and the next minute.... [please fill in what happened here].
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Mike
It is not just Acts 1. There is far more.
Look at all the references here from John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
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T-Bone
Transcendence and immanence are divine attributes
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Matthew 28
25 David said about him:
“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.
And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 2
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 7
12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Acts 26
16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
I Corinthians 3
18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Ephesians 2
~~~~~~~~~ -~~~~~~~
It’s puzzling why some may wrestle with the idea of interagency of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It may be they still wrestle with comprehending the divine attributes of Jesus Christ - that He is both transcendent AND immanent.
Edited by T-BoneAdding a pinch of salt
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WordWolf
The reason is that it gives you something to do. If it doesn't exist- and it doesn't- then you've wasted your time forming the rest of your doctrine- and you have. This means you have nothing special to offer everyone else- and you don't.
The most embarrassing part of this doctrine you're so proud you're still pushing is how it's probably the most visible self-contradiction of your own doctrine. You can't give it up without losing what you think makes you unique, and you can't keep it and be in harmony with the Orange Book.
According to your doctrine, the Bible's "essentially lost" (your words, not mine.) In the Orange Book, vpw very clearly outlined how WE were to take modern Bibles, "compare one verse with another verse" and so on, and he said he was "confident" that "WE" could finish with an authoritative "THUS SAITH THE LORD." I know you're keen to pretend that isn't a blatant and obvious contradiction, but that's two diametrically-opposed doctrines. You have to claim "well, vpw didn't mean "we" when he said "we" there, or that the entire passage from the Orange Book doesn't apply at all.
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WordWolf
Ok, found what I was looking for, in the Orange Book, pages 127-128.
The Orange Book, page-127-128 says
"In proceeding as a workman, there is basic information which must be kept in
mind, the first of which is that no translation or version of the Bible may
properly be called the Word of God.
The Bible from which I have been quoting is called the King James Version.
It is not the King James Translation. If I had a King James translation in my
hands, I would have a Bible that is worth a great deal of money as a collector's
item. Once a translation has been made from an original text, like the Stephens
Text from which the King James was translated, the first copy is called a
translation. When scholars begin to rework the translation in any way, it becomes
a version.
Now, I said that no translation, let alone a version, may properly be called the
Word of God. As far as anybody knows, there are no original texts in existence
today. The oldest dated Biblical manuscript is from 464 AD and written in
Aramaic in Estrangelo script. There are older Aramaic manuscripts written in the
Estrangelo script which predate 464 AD, but these are not Biblical texts.
What students or scholars refer to as 'originals' really date from 464 AD and
later. These manuscripts are not originals--the originals are those which holy
men of God wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. At best, we have copies
of the originals. When I refer to the Word of God, I do not mean a copy or a
translation or a version; I mean that Word of God which was originally given by
revelation to holy men.
Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to
the fifth century AD,
how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of
God spoke?
To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version,
we have to compare one word with another word
and one verse with another verse.
We have to study the context of all the verses.
If it is the Word of God, then if cannot have a contradiction
for God cannot contradict Himself.
Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding.
When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word-
which I am confident we can-
then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the
prophets of old, 'Thus saith the Lord'. "
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waysider
Mike, you used a Firesign Theatre skit here when you referenced Hemlock Stone. Are you aware that a real Hemlock Stone exists and that it's not just a simple twisting of the name Sherlock Holmes for humorous effect? Well, maybe you are and maybe you aren't. Are you comparing GSC posters to a historic landmark or to a fictional character of Firesign Theatre design?
Edited by waysiderspelling
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OldSkool
Mike, dont you remember in Some Dumbass Book Wierwille Wrote (SDBWW) on page 362.341? Surely you remember? It says in the pflap class as well but if you goto SDBWW it should jog your memory as it seems you have forgotten. Your not being a very good student mike.
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OldSkool
Cool. He's called us worse.
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OldSkool
No its just that discussing anything with you is a moot point because you lack the intellectual honesty.
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OldSkool
It goes to show he doesnt know Jesus Christ beyond a namesake to push prayers while he focuses his own efforts pretending he is God Jr with the law of believing.
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waysider
If I believe hard enough, will the law of believing become real?
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OldSkool
Well you have to believe it will work before you can believe it will work.
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