Not so. Jesus said God's words are spirit and are life. He aspired up to the Word to the extent that he became the Word made flesh.
I concur on JAL.
In 1988 he was righteously on top of a deadly TVT doctrine that was circulating thru the ministry, which was one of gaining abundance by planting images in our brains, a distortion of the believing images of victory. These were believing images of red sports cars taped to refrigerator doors! He was selling the book "The Seduction of Christianity" that tells of similar abuses to the law of believing.
We at TWI-1 had drifted into this kind of "appropriation witchcraft" in our TVTs and practices. JAL was right in pointing out this problem. But then he want one step too far and said that we were taught it in PFAL.
This was Sept 1988, and the same month I got a hold of a bootleg set of PFAL videos. I worked those videos for a whole year, and presented my findings to JAL when he returned in the Fall of 1989.
I documented this for him, with segment numbers and how many minutes into the segment he needed to listen. Then I quoted that passage of the film class.
I found about 19 places in the class where VPW clearly says that first we got to get a promise of God in mind, and THAT is what we believe; not just any old thoughts. In the film class we were taught to NOT do what the "The Seduction of Christianity" warns about. We were taught very clearly in PFAL that there must be a promise of God in our believing or it is wrong.
I showed all this to JAL and he was totally uninterested. He was happy the prior year to lay out the accusation that PFAL blew it on this, but not at all interested when I showed him that HE had blown it, and just forgot what he had heard in the class.
He told me point blank that he did not have time for me, and had to move fast to collect up all the disciples of VPW before someone else did. All he wanted was people, and accuracy and truth be damned.
But Mike didn't vp say the law of believing works for saint or sinner alike? I thought he had. Sinners are not interested in God's promises but some might be interest in red sports car. So shouldn't the law of believing work for this sinner?
…and a manageable deity that can make others think you know what you’re talking about.
I was reading TWI's reconciling others post - and wanted to address a 'side issue' - having a rigid interpretation of where 'the heavenlies' are...so -first the excerpts from TWI's post:
Today, Jesus Christ is seated in the heavenlies at God’s own right hand, functioning as the head of the Church of the Body, as it says in Ephesians 1; but he did not leave his role on earth unattended. He delegated to born-again believers the power and authority to carry out his works, and greater, in his stead. It’s now our joy to assume this responsibility and represent him with all confidence…
…What a joy we’ve been afforded to represent the Lord Jesus Christ on this earth, to carry out the works he did while here, and greater. Every day we can awake with enthusiasm and excitement to take the place of the absent Christ, reconciling men and women back to God in Christ’s stead.
Why do we have to assume that Jesus Christ being seated in the heavenlies at God’s own right hand is so far away?
Where in the Bible does it indicate the distance from Earth to the divine thrones in the heavenlies?
~ ~ ~ ~
Stringing along
New International Version Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”… Luke 17:20, 21
Is there a different way to 'discover' the kingdom of God? Was Jesus Christ alluding to other dimensions than our space-time continuum? In the grand scheme of EVERYTHING – the BIG PICTURE – how does our way of understanding the world…the cosmos relate to space, time, and everything we know of – how does all that fit within the BIGGER PICTURE?
We can try to put God in a box or pretend we can explain how He works - but that doesn't make it so! Our worldview has certainly expanded and is enhanced by the achievements in scientific disciplines – but there’s still a lot we don’t know.
Also keep in mind supersymmetric string theory is just that – a theory – it is an attempt to explain all of the elementary particles and fundamental forces of nature in one theory by modeling them as vibrations of tiny supersymmetric strings.
This was not the first occasion on which some of them at least had had his heavenly glory brought home to them in a similar way. The words “a cloud received him out of their sight” are reminiscent of those with which the Gospel incident of the transfiguration comes to an end: “a cloud came and overshadowed them; …and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!’ And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone” (Luke 9:34 – 36). They are reminiscent, too, of Jesus’ own language about the Parousia of the Son of Man – “coming in clouds with great power and glory” (Mark 13:26); “coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62).
The transfiguration, the ascension (as here described), and the Parousia are three successive manifestations of Jesus’ divine glory. The cloud in each case is to be understood as the cloud which envelops the glory of God (the shekhinah) – that cloud which, resting above the Mosaic tabernacle and filling Solomon’s temple, was a visible token to Israel that the divine glory had taken up residence there (Ex. 40:34; I Kings 8:10 – 11). So, in the last moment that the apostles saw their Lord with outward vision, they were granted “a theophany: Jesus is enveloped in the cloud of the divine presence.”
In a science fiction movie, the special effects crew might use a fog machine during a scene where a creature crosses over to our dimension or an Earthship that lands on an unknown planet – the fog conveys feelings of otherworldliness…the mysterious…something inexplicable…utter strangeness…
Amplified Bible The Son is the radiance and only expression of the glory of [our awesome] God [reflecting God’s Shekinah glory, the Light-being, the brilliant light of the divine], and the exact representation and perfect imprint of His [Father’s] essence, and upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal].
When He [Himself and no other] had [by offering Himself on the cross as a sacrifice for sin] accomplished purification from sins and established our freedom from guilt, He sat down [revealing His completed work] at the right hand of the Majesty on high [revealing His Divine authority]having become as much superior to angels, since He has inherited a more excellent and glorious name than they [that is, Son--the name above all names].
For to which of the angels did the Father ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN (fathered) YOU [established You as a Son, with kingly dignity]”?
And again [did He ever say to the angels], “I SHALL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? And when He again brings the firstborn [highest-ranking Son] into the world, He says, “AND ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD ARE TO WORSHIP HIM.”
And concerning the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERING SERVANTS FLAMES OF FIRE [to do His bidding].” But about the Son [the Father says to Him], “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF [absolute] RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS [integrity, virtue, uprightness in purpose] AND HAVE HATED LAWLESSNESS [injustice, sin].
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” And, “YOU, LORD, LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH IN THE BEGINNING, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN [forever and ever]; AND THEY WILL ALL WEAR OUT LIKE A GARMENT, AND LIKE A ROBE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME [forever], AND YOUR YEARS WILL NEVER END.”
But to which of the angels has the Father ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND [together with me in royal dignity], UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET [in triumphant conquest]”? Are not all the angels ministering spirits sent out [by God] to serve (accompany, protect) those who will inherit salvation? [Of course they are!] …Hebrews 1: 3 – 14 Amplified Bible
It seems to me The Way International is doubling down on wierwille’s absent Christ. As a former fundamentalist I can see how wierwille came to that conclusion. I read that Jesus ascended into heaven…He’s seated at the right hand of God – those are spatial references. But that’s limiting Him to just 3 dimensions. Our physical space is observed to have three large spatial dimensions and, along with time, is a boundless 4-dimensional continuum known as space-time. Theoretical physicists have come up with a number of concepts that incorporate extra physical measurements describing more dimensions – from 10 to 26 dimensions!… Jesus Christ is not absent – but maybe our natural world and the supernatural world are commingled – and ‘stuff’ in the coalescence – for some reason are obscured from our senses.
Scripture indicates Jesus Christ is present and active in the world!
New International Version Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it…Mark 16:20
New International Version When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me…John 15:26
Amplified Bible God [in His eternal plan] chose to make known to them how great for the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in and among you, the hope and guarantee of [realizing the] glory…Colossians 1:27
We, humans, tend to look up, literally and figuratively, to taller people. We associate height with leadership simply due to height.
We move UP the corporate ladder.
A judge in a courtroom often had a higher position, they look down others look up.
I'm sure there's some symbolism there in Christ's ascension UP. At least the psychology behind it.
We, humans, tend to look up, literally and figuratively, to taller people. We associate height with leadership simply due to height.
We move UP the corporate ladder.
A judge in a courtroom often had a higher position, they look down others look up.
I'm sure there's some symbolism there in Christ's ascension UP. At least the psychology behind it.
I agree - and I’m trying to reimagine the ascension - instead of Jesus Christ floating up higher and higher until he’s a speck disappearing into a regular cloud - what if it looked to them like he started getting bigger and then seems to dissolve into a strange low lying thick mist that came out of nowhere.
Amplified Bible The Son is the radiance and only expression of the glory of [our awesome] God [reflecting God’s Shekinah glory, the Light-being, the brilliant light of the divine], and the exact representation and perfect imprint of His [Father’s] essence, and upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal].
When He [Himself and no other] had [by offering Himself on the cross as a sacrifice for sin] accomplished purification from sins and established our freedom from guilt, He sat down [revealing His completed work] at the right hand of the Majesty on high [revealing His Divine authority]having become as much superior to angels, since He has inherited a more excellent and glorious name than they [that is, Son--the name above all names].
For to which of the angels did the Father ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN (fathered) YOU [established You as a Son, with kingly dignity]”?
And again [did He ever say to the angels], “I SHALL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? And when He again brings the firstborn [highest-ranking Son] into the world, He says, “AND ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD ARE TO WORSHIP HIM.”
And concerning the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERING SERVANTS FLAMES OF FIRE [to do His bidding].” But about the Son [the Father says to Him], “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF [absolute] RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS [integrity, virtue, uprightness in purpose] AND HAVE HATED LAWLESSNESS [injustice, sin].
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” And, “YOU, LORD, LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH IN THE BEGINNING, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN [forever and ever]; AND THEY WILL ALL WEAR OUT LIKE A GARMENT, AND LIKE A ROBE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME [forever], AND YOUR YEARS WILL NEVER END.”
But to which of the angels has the Father ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND [together with me in royal dignity], UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET [in triumphant conquest]”? Are not all the angels ministering spirits sent out [by God] to serve (accompany, protect) those who will inherit salvation? [Of course they are!] …Hebrews 1: 3 – 14 Amplified Bible
Over the past few years I have started to ponder if we need to understand Jesus Christs relationship with God and his current function in his elevated state as a present and future affair. Scripture is clear that God in the beginning created...
However, scripture speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. Who is to say that Jesus Christ doesnt have a major role in it's preperation and creation. We no longer know him after the flesh and scripture calls him a life giving spirit. Who are we to tell God how to be God and limit our understanding of Jesus Christ based on fundamentalism nonsense.
Cool post T-Bone.
Oh...I think the main reason Mike, TWI, etc stumble with Jesus Christ, beyond that fact that he is meant to be a stumbling and rock of offence at times, is they cant comprehend that Jesus Christ is no longer what we would call human: that's to say a carbon based lifeform. What if he is a plasma based life form? Whatever he was changed into at the ressurection and ascenscion is beyond our comprehension. Again, revelation gives a glimpse:
Revelation 1:10-18
10 was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Except that it really is the point. You have no idea whether or not the claims are verifiable.
You also have no idea what my "theology" is.
It's your anti-idol theology I was talking about. You think VPW taught us to look away from Jesus, but that tape VPW played for us was about a little girl who looked TOWARD Jesus for healing and received it.
In a sense you are, in that I am relaying to you what I got from Paul. I'm suggesting you study Paul's Epistles instead of my posts for the truth here. I am pointing you to a source better than me. If you engage me in a discussion on it, I will be bringing Paul into it.
If you want to know the truth you must move on to Paul. But if your motivation is not to learn for your personal development, but to box me into a corner based on how flawed an essay I can write for you, then please just back off with your requests.
If you want to learn, go to Paul. You can start with 1 Thessalonians. There is an important verse there that can explain "the Word" to you.
In a sense you are, in that I am relaying to you what I got from Paul. I'm suggesting you study Paul's Epistles instead of my posts for the truth here. I am pointing you to a source better than me. If you engage me in a discussion on it, I will be bringing Paul into it.
If you want to know the truth you must move on to Paul. But if your motivation is not to learn for your personal development, but to box me into a corner based on how flawed an essay I can write for you, then please just back off with your requests.
If you want to learn, go to Paul. You can start with 1 Thessalonians. There is an important verse there that can explain "the Word" to you.
Paul cannot respond me, or clarify my questions about what he wrote. I am speaking to living people, I was assuming.
You could just quote the verse instead of posturing for some sort of high ground. This is not a game of gotcha. Your reductionist views are the box.
But Mike didn't vp say the law of believing works for saint or sinner alike? I thought he had. Sinners are not interested in God's promises but some might be interest in red sports car. So shouldn't the law of believing work for this sinner?
Do you remember WHAT ELSE he said about that law and unbelievers? He said it should work better for us.
Are you familiar with that book JAL was promoting, The Seduction of Christianity? It was saying that working the brain to believe something that is not a promise of God opens the door to witchcraft.
Paul cannot respond me, or clarify my questions about what he wrote. I am speaking to living people, I was assuming.
You could just quote the verse instead of posturing for some sort of high ground. This is not a game of gotcha. Your reductionist views are the box.
Since Paul wrote for God, his words are spirit and life to you. God can respond to you as you study Paul. God is the living Author of those Epistles.
If I were to write the perfect essay for you, all it would do is motivate you better to study Paul. If you are not willing to crack open 1 Thessalonians now, then why should I bother writing the essay? All of my teaching to you will be to get you to study Paul for yourself. That is what the PFAL class was all about for you, as well. It was a pointer to Paul. Your refusal to go to Paul right now is not a good sign to me. A hungry student would have had 1 Thessalonians open by now.
Since Paul wrote for God, his words are spirit and life to you. God can respond to you as you study Paul. God is the living Author of those Epistles.
If I were to write the perfect essay for you, all it would do is motivate you better to study Paul. If you are not willing to crack open 1 Thessalonians now, then why should I bother writing the essay? All of my teaching to you will be to get you to study Paul for yourself. That is what the PFAL class was all about for you, as well. It was a pointer to Paul. Your refusal to go to Paul right now is not a good sign to me. A hungry student would have had 1 Thessalonians open by now.
1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Do you remember WHAT ELSE he said about that law and unbelievers? He said it should work better for us.
There you go making stuff up again. If the premise is that you believe something or you don't, how would pistis work better for believers than unbelievers?
Just where in the class was the above quote?
I can see what JAL was hinting at. It's called magical thinking.
1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
To be distinguished from..
1 Th 4:15
"...the word of the Lord..."
...distinguished still from...
John 1:1
"....the word was God.."
...even further distinguished from...
"the word = YourBelieving+YourWalk+ChristInYou+TheBible"
It's your anti-idol theology I was talking about. You think VPW taught us to look away from Jesus, but that tape VPW played for us was about a little girl who looked TOWARD Jesus for healing and received it.
Over the past few years I have started to ponder if we need to understand Jesus Christs relationship with God and his current function in his elevated state as a present and future affair. Scripture is clear that God in the beginning created...
However, scripture speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. Who is to say that Jesus Christ doesnt have a major role in it's preperation and creation. We no longer know him after the flesh and scripture calls him a life giving spirit. Who are we to tell God how to be God and limit our understanding of Jesus Christ based on fundamentalism nonsense.
John 14 makes me think Jesus Christ will have a major role in the creation & prep of our new “digs”:
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Oh...I think the main reason Mike, TWI, etc stumble with Jesus Christ, beyond that fact that he is meant to be a stumbling and rock of offence at times, is they cant comprehend that Jesus Christ is no longer what we would call human: that's to say a carbon based lifeform. What if he is a plasma based life form? Whatever he was changed into at the ressurection and ascenscion is beyond our comprehension.
My 2-bit theory on why TWI stumbles with Jesus Christ is that no one could drive the stick in wierwille’s jalopy of theology. I believe there’s at least 4 major elements to wierwille’s dogmatics:
1.His signature intuition
2.Fundamentalism
3.Spiritualism
4.Gnosticism
Of the four - wierwille’s signature intuition is key to making it all work together in a Dr. Frankenstein sort of way
His signature intuition = whatever he felt the explanation should be.
And to be clear – it’s wierwille’s intuitionover against your intuition or anyone else’s. Only wierwille’s intuition counts! That's the way cults work. Didn't you read the rule book?
Rule # 1. Follow the cult-leader.
Rule # 2. See Rule # 1.
the slightly off-topic portion of our show: intuition
I don’t mean to give intuition itself a bad rap. I believe our intuition should be integral with our more analytical study of the Scriptures...But it’s important to realize that it’s not perfect and it can be misinterpreted or even compromised by a seared conscience – certain passages like Proverbs 16:25 and Judges 21:25 will attest to that – we find that one’s feelings can be wrong, and not all inner leanings should be heeded. Because of our sinful nature, we are often prone to error and poor judgment. If relying only upon our own powers of discernment, we can be led astray.
I believe people are created in God’s image and as such we reflect some unique characteristics of our Creator – like a moral compass, the ability to judge what is right from wrong and act accordingly. At times we may acquire knowledge without obvious deliberation. Perhaps that is what Ephesians 1:17 is talking about - “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you…”
People are not robots. We have freedom of will and some passages seem to suggest the more we align ourselves with the sentiment and moral demands of the Bible – the more reliable our instincts become – Psalm 37:23 and the Bible does seem to suggest that when we seek wisdom as our highest priority, our intuition can very well be a safeguard against tragic mistakes Proverbs 2:3-5 , Ecclesiastes 7:12 , Psalm 37:23Psalm 111:10 , and James 1:5 .
Surviving a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International is not simple or easy. One needs to consider the damage done to cognitive skills and self-confidence. TWI’s programs, classes, studies, and teachings are all designed towhittle down cognitive skills and self-confidence…I learned to NOTtrust my own thinking process, emotions, and intuition. I was encouraged to check with upper leadership before I made any major decisions. I put my faith in wierwille, LCM, PFAL, and the Way Tree (it all is the culticsystem) because I was led to believe it was all designed by God and that’s how God works – through the ministry – the cultic system.
It all starts with the cult-leader. I trusted the intuition of a plagiarizing, pathological liar…a malignant narcissist…a megalomaniac…a drunkard…a sexual predator = victor paul wierwille. If the insight, ideas, ‘research’, or teaching did not have wierwille’s “signature” on it – in other words, unless I knew it was from him – I might doubt if it was true.
wierwille’s signature intuition was like a manual transmission - allowing “the driver “ to change gears . Depending on his agenda he could interpret a passage with a fundamentalist’s literalism or spiritualize it to push his demonology or suggest hidden and deeper meanings with a Gnostic viewpoint. On different occasions I’ve heard wierwille spin the same passage several different ways. Adultery could be explained as spiritual adultery – shacking up with other gods – idolatry.
Without wierwille’s signature intuition driven by his charisma and gravitas current cult-leaders can’t make it work - they’re grinding gears - they probably can’t reconcile earthly Jesus with resurrected / exalted Christ. They regurgitate the great principle instead of exploring the interagency of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spiritat work in each believer.
And then there’s so-and-so here who frequently attempts to shift gears on a passage or something he said or even reinterpret something from PFAL that would make wierwille roll over in his grave - fortunately the dead are not alive now.
Fellow Christians, we fare a lot better just looking for the natural sense...the obvious sense of Scripture and glean from legitimate sources stuff about the biblical languages, cultures, literary genres, etc.. We all don’t have to think alike...and we're not going to figure out everything...there's some pretty weird stuff in the Bible...the main thing is to use it as an aid to devotion - one of the catalysts in your transforming relationship with Jesus Christ...don't worship the book - worship God who inspired the book.
And I don’t think we should approach the Bible expecting to find mathematical exactness, scientific precision, step-by-step how-to instructions, and explanations on exactly how God works. Instead of believing in wierwille’s great principle, try trusting the John 14-15-and-16 principle = The Father > The Son > The Holy Spirit > you.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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Charity
But Mike didn't vp say the law of believing works for saint or sinner alike? I thought he had. Sinners are not interested in God's promises but some might be interest in red sports car. So shouldn't the law of believing work for this sinner?
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Bolshevik
We, humans, tend to look up, literally and figuratively, to taller people. We associate height with leadership simply due to height.
We move UP the corporate ladder.
A judge in a courtroom often had a higher position, they look down others look up.
I'm sure there's some symbolism there in Christ's ascension UP. At least the psychology behind it.
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OldSkool
A person just can't make it make sense.
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T-Bone
I agree - and I’m trying to reimagine the ascension - instead of Jesus Christ floating up higher and higher until he’s a speck disappearing into a regular cloud - what if it looked to them like he started getting bigger and then seems to dissolve into a strange low lying thick mist that came out of nowhere.
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OldSkool
Over the past few years I have started to ponder if we need to understand Jesus Christs relationship with God and his current function in his elevated state as a present and future affair. Scripture is clear that God in the beginning created...
However, scripture speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. Who is to say that Jesus Christ doesnt have a major role in it's preperation and creation. We no longer know him after the flesh and scripture calls him a life giving spirit. Who are we to tell God how to be God and limit our understanding of Jesus Christ based on fundamentalism nonsense.
Cool post T-Bone.
Oh...I think the main reason Mike, TWI, etc stumble with Jesus Christ, beyond that fact that he is meant to be a stumbling and rock of offence at times, is they cant comprehend that Jesus Christ is no longer what we would call human: that's to say a carbon based lifeform. What if he is a plasma based life form? Whatever he was changed into at the ressurection and ascenscion is beyond our comprehension. Again, revelation gives a glimpse:
Revelation 1:10-18
10 was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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Bolshevik
But but but . . . . Four crucified!
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Mike
If you can believe that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, then you can rise above this fear of fantasy.
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OldSkool
Or you can reject unsound doctrine so you dont become delusional.
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Mike
The goal worth driving yourself for is to understand what Paul meant by "the Word" and "spiritual."
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OldSkool
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Mike
It's your anti-idol theology I was talking about. You think VPW taught us to look away from Jesus, but that tape VPW played for us was about a little girl who looked TOWARD Jesus for healing and received it.
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Bolshevik
I'm not having a discussion with Paul!
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Mike
In a sense you are, in that I am relaying to you what I got from Paul. I'm suggesting you study Paul's Epistles instead of my posts for the truth here. I am pointing you to a source better than me. If you engage me in a discussion on it, I will be bringing Paul into it.
If you want to know the truth you must move on to Paul. But if your motivation is not to learn for your personal development, but to box me into a corner based on how flawed an essay I can write for you, then please just back off with your requests.
If you want to learn, go to Paul. You can start with 1 Thessalonians. There is an important verse there that can explain "the Word" to you.
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Bolshevik
Paul cannot respond me, or clarify my questions about what he wrote. I am speaking to living people, I was assuming.
You could just quote the verse instead of posturing for some sort of high ground. This is not a game of gotcha. Your reductionist views are the box.
Edited by BolshevikSpelling
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Mike
Do you remember WHAT ELSE he said about that law and unbelievers? He said it should work better for us.
Are you familiar with that book JAL was promoting, The Seduction of Christianity? It was saying that working the brain to believe something that is not a promise of God opens the door to witchcraft.
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Mike
Since Paul wrote for God, his words are spirit and life to you. God can respond to you as you study Paul. God is the living Author of those Epistles.
If I were to write the perfect essay for you, all it would do is motivate you better to study Paul. If you are not willing to crack open 1 Thessalonians now, then why should I bother writing the essay? All of my teaching to you will be to get you to study Paul for yourself. That is what the PFAL class was all about for you, as well. It was a pointer to Paul. Your refusal to go to Paul right now is not a good sign to me. A hungry student would have had 1 Thessalonians open by now.
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Bolshevik
Romans 12:3
There's a verse. Talk to Paul.
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Mike
1 Thess 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
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So_crates
There you go making stuff up again. If the premise is that you believe something or you don't, how would pistis work better for believers than unbelievers?
Just where in the class was the above quote?
I can see what JAL was hinting at. It's called magical thinking.
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Bolshevik
That is a verse.
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Nathan_Jr
To be distinguished from..
1 Th 4:15
"...the word of the Lord..."
...distinguished still from...
John 1:1
"....the word was God.."
...even further distinguished from...
"the word = YourBelieving+YourWalk+ChristInYou+TheBible"
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waysider
Like I said, you don't have the slightest clue.
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T-Bone
John 14 makes me think Jesus Christ will have a major role in the creation & prep of our new “digs”:
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”
John 14
My 2-bit theory on why TWI stumbles with Jesus Christ is that no one could drive the stick in wierwille’s jalopy of theology. I believe there’s at least 4 major elements to wierwille’s dogmatics:
1.His signature intuition
2.Fundamentalism
3.Spiritualism
4.Gnosticism
Of the four - wierwille’s signature intuition is key to making it all work together in a Dr. Frankenstein sort of way
His signature intuition = whatever he felt the explanation should be.
And to be clear – it’s wierwille’s intuition over against your intuition or anyone else’s. Only wierwille’s intuition counts!
That's the way cults work. Didn't you read the rule book?
Rule # 1. Follow the cult-leader.
Rule # 2. See Rule # 1.
I don’t mean to give intuition itself a bad rap. I believe our intuition should be integral with our more analytical study of the Scriptures...But it’s important to realize that it’s not perfect and it can be misinterpreted or even compromised by a seared conscience – certain passages like Proverbs 16:25 and Judges 21:25 will attest to that – we find that one’s feelings can be wrong, and not all inner leanings should be heeded. Because of our sinful nature, we are often prone to error and poor judgment. If relying only upon our own powers of discernment, we can be led astray.
I believe people are created in God’s image and as such we reflect some unique characteristics of our Creator – like a moral compass, the ability to judge what is right from wrong and act accordingly. At times we may acquire knowledge without obvious deliberation. Perhaps that is what Ephesians 1:17 is talking about - “that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you…”
People are not robots. We have freedom of will and some passages seem to suggest the more we align ourselves with the sentiment and moral demands of the Bible – the more reliable our instincts become – Psalm 37:23 and the Bible does seem to suggest that when we seek wisdom as our highest priority, our intuition can very well be a safeguard against tragic mistakes Proverbs 2:3-5 , Ecclesiastes 7:12 , Psalm 37:23 Psalm 111:10 , and James 1:5 .
Surviving a harmful and controlling cult like The Way International is not simple or easy. One needs to consider the damage done to cognitive skills and self-confidence. TWI’s programs, classes, studies, and teachings are all designed to whittle down cognitive skills and self-confidence…I learned to NOT trust my own thinking process, emotions, and intuition. I was encouraged to check with upper leadership before I made any major decisions. I put my faith in wierwille, LCM, PFAL, and the Way Tree (it all is the cultic system) because I was led to believe it was all designed by God and that’s how God works – through the ministry – the cultic system.
It all starts with the cult-leader. I trusted the intuition of a plagiarizing, pathological liar…a malignant narcissist…a megalomaniac…a drunkard…a sexual predator = victor paul wierwille. If the insight, ideas, ‘research’, or teaching did not have wierwille’s “signature” on it – in other words, unless I knew it was from him – I might doubt if it was true.
wierwille’s signature intuition was like a manual transmission - allowing “the driver “ to change gears . Depending on his agenda he could interpret a passage with a fundamentalist’s literalism or spiritualize it to push his demonology or suggest hidden and deeper meanings with a Gnostic viewpoint. On different occasions I’ve heard wierwille spin the same passage several different ways. Adultery could be explained as spiritual adultery – shacking up with other gods – idolatry.
Without wierwille’s signature intuition driven by his charisma and gravitas current cult-leaders can’t make it work - they’re grinding gears - they probably can’t reconcile earthly Jesus with resurrected / exalted Christ. They regurgitate the great principle instead of exploring the interagency of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit at work in each believer.
And then there’s so-and-so here who frequently attempts to shift gears on a passage or something he said or even reinterpret something from PFAL that would make wierwille roll over in his grave - fortunately the dead are not alive now.
Fellow Christians, we fare a lot better just looking for the natural sense...the obvious sense of Scripture and glean from legitimate sources stuff about the biblical languages, cultures, literary genres, etc.. We all don’t have to think alike...and we're not going to figure out everything...there's some pretty weird stuff in the Bible...the main thing is to use it as an aid to devotion - one of the catalysts in your transforming relationship with Jesus Christ...don't worship the book - worship God who inspired the book.
And I don’t think we should approach the Bible expecting to find mathematical exactness, scientific precision, step-by-step how-to instructions, and explanations on exactly how God works. Instead of believing in wierwille’s great principle, try trusting the John 14-15-and-16 principle = The Father > The Son > The Holy Spirit > you.
Edited by T-BoneT-Bone > post > proof > edit
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OldSkool
That's not what I read...
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
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