None of this aligns with the Bible. What in the actual eff is a "raw word"? I guess this means you are using scrambled words instead of raw?...lol...Words have meanings and God used languages, words, word definitions, rules of grammer, etc to reveal himself to manking using written scripture. Yes it takes study and effort but twisting words isnt a godly attribute...satan twists words not God.
You telling anyone what their perspective is will always be flat wrong. You arent qualified to define or explain anothers experience when it comes to their relationship with God/Jesus Christ. Of course I expect you to retort with something along the lines of "experiences arent the word"..or whatever...I would agree with you in some circumstances but not all in this case (or most other cases with you) because you cherish the word of wierwille, not the actual Word of God.
Your word salad on what God and Jesus perspective is laughable. You reject plain scripture that state what part of that perspective really looks like and instead twist words and sripture to match wierwilles laughable theology on Christ being absent.
I really should have just quoted you on "This is the perspective I picked up from PFLAP" because that pretty much makes the entire post null and void. PFLAP is remedial, stolen goods. God/Jesus Christ do not employ thieves in their service and that according to scripture.
When God created in Genesis he spoke things into being. The Logos --> Christ --> The Word. Out of chaos came creation.
As a new human being the world and life is chaos. As we grow and understand things our minds give persons, places, things, emotions, concepts, ideas etc . . . we give them names. Out of the perceived chaos our minds create meaning over time. Anytime we go into something new this happens.
Not sure where I'm going with that but the connection between language and creation and The Logos I think is neat.
In that way the use of language can be considered part of the act of creation.
When God created in Genesis he spoke things into being. The Logos --> Christ --> The Word. Out of chaos came creation.
As a new human being the world and life is chaos. As we grow and understand things our minds give persons, places, things, emotions, concepts, ideas etc . . . we give them names. Out of the perceived chaos our minds create meaning over time. Anytime we go into something new this happens.
Not sure where I'm going with that but the connection between language and creation and The Logos I think is neat.
In that way the use of language can be considered part of the act of creation.
Are you talking about infinitives, which are sometimes called the "to be" or "dictionary" form? Learning to use/conjugate them properly can be one of the most challenging aspects of learning a language. In fact, some languages even change the word completely, with the conjugation built in automatically. Cultural differences and etymology also play an important role in proper understanding Not surprisingly, it's also one of the reasons amateur "word studies" and word-for-word translations are somewhat of a fool's folly. Are you saying that God, who has supposedly made things "so simple even a fool need not err therein" has resorted to intentional ambiguity? That seems a bit devious for someone's who's depicted as being all benevolent. Wouldn't you agree?
No, I'm not talking about infinitives, nor anything grammatical.
What I am trying to point out is that, ALTHOUGH the words "hidden" and "absent" are very different in ordinary usage, in THIS usage things are different.
When people make something invisible, such invisibility is most often detectable and thwart-able. The classic H.G. Wells story of an invisible man had it's interesting exceptions to the invisibility, such as snow and rain.
Human devised invisibility is not absolute, and someone could be present, but still not absent. If the invisibility were busted, then the absence would have been only one of perception.
That was what I meant by "raw" definitions. The way we define words, "absent" and "hidden" have some big differences, in spite of a few similarities.
But when these words are involved in an action taken by God Almighty, then things can change in how the situation is viewed. Here the perception of hidden is much stronger, and the difference between "hidden" and "absent" erodes.
But this word "absent" was not used in the class to signify any kind of lack of awareness on Jesus part of our situations. It was used ONCE in the class to describe OUR PERSPECTIVE of Jesus physical presence in this time before the Return.
Had VPW done other teachings involving Jesus being absent or unaware or disconnected, then THAT would have been wrong of him. Instead, what happened is the idea of an absent Christ was strengthened and repeated in other contexts in the TVTs, but not in the teachings.
What I noticed with many grads is that they would rather pick something up in a TVT (Twi Verbal Tradition) than pick up a collateral to get something with better detail and accuracy.
VPW did not teach an absent Christ.
He used the word "absent" once to describe our perspective until the Return. VPW taught the opposite of an absent Christ. In his last book he included an entire chapter to fight this TVT on the "super absent Christ" that grabbed so many minds in TWI.
Anyone want to guess which chapter in OMSW taught us to seek the very present and findable Jesus?
And, yet, this is precisely what you are doing in this very post.
I don't see what you mean. I am not technically familiar with infinitives in grammar. Maybe you can explain with details?
I am only focused on Acts 1, and how strongly God hid Jesus with that cloud, and for how long he would remain hidden.
A God-hidden Jesus could be described as "absent" once, as long as the context is clear that it is from our point of view that he is inaccessible.
If that word "absent" had been used lots of ways and in lots of teachings, then we'd have had a bigger problem. The word "absent" got picked up by the TVTs and it was given life it did not deserve. People who paid more attention to the TVTs, instead of the collaterals and the Bible, got robbed.
Yes, this was a problem in the ministry, that relationships with Jesus Christ were confounded by the overly absent Christ in the TVTs.
It will be interesting to see the last attempt by VPW to fix this, which was an entire chapter in his last book. I posted on this almost exactly 20 years ago here. Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about? The absent Christ was a raging issue here 20 years ago. I wonder if anyone remembers?
"We have Christ in us, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27). We have the potential of Christ’s heart, commitment, and ability to reach others with God’s powerful Word of deliverance."
Christ in you to The Way means Christ's potential.
"Today, Jesus Christ is seated in the heavenlies at God’s own right hand, functioning as the head of the Church of the Body, as it says in Ephesians 1; but he did not leave his role on earth unattended. He delegated to born-again believers the power and authority to carry out his works, and greater, in his stead. It’s now our joy to assume this responsibility and represent him with all confidence."
Christ left earth, he's not here, so . . . . absent.
The phrase in that article is "in Christ's stead" and I am not very familiar with that use of the word stead. I am wondering about it's etymology; is it related to "steady" ?
There is SOMETHING to learned by God hiding Christ on the day of the Ascension. No one seems to want to take that as a positive act on God's part.
Mike...you are back peddling and changing your position yet again....
It's not the focus of my efforts any more, but I will mention it when it comes up in context. I did not abandon my position; just demoted how much attention I put into promoting of it.
The phrase in that article is "in Christ's stead" and I am not very familiar with that use of the word stead. I am wondering about it's etymology; is it related to "steady" ?
There is SOMETHING to learned by God hiding Christ on the day of the Ascension. No one seems to want to take that as a positive act on God's part.
It's simple wordplay.
We are here IN STEAD OF CHRIST.
The rest of the article I posted makes that abundantly above all that we could ask or think clear.
With more detail:
Jesus Christ left the physical realm. He is physically absent.
At the same time, Jesus Christ is spiritually present in anyone who believes in him.
Now you're calling upon fantasy, the spirit realm, to explain whatever gap you need to feel in control of.
"During Jesus Christ’s ministry on this earth, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Today the work of reconciling men and women to God is not the work of Christ but the work of born-again believers, who have been given the Word and the ministry of reconciliation. We areambassadorsfor the Lord Jesus Christ, and we have the joy of reconciling others to God in Christ’s stead. We do this with God’s Word and with His power."
The Word takes the place of the Absent Christ. . . . according to TWI
On the contrary, Christ is The Word. In which case TWI logic makes no sense.
It's not the focus of my efforts any more, but I will mention it when it comes up in context. I did not abandon my position; just demoted how much attention I put into promoting of it.
Cause you are proven wrong again and again multiple times from multiple participants...when u know your wrong you scoot out the way.
Now you're calling upon fantasy, the spirit realm, to explain whatever gap you need to feel in control of.
"During Jesus Christ’s ministry on this earth, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Today the work of reconciling men and women to God is not the work of Christ but the work of born-again believers, who have been given the Word and the ministry of reconciliation. We areambassadorsfor the Lord Jesus Christ, and we have the joy of reconciling others to God in Christ’s stead. We do this with God’s Word and with His power."
The Word takes the place of the Absent Christ. . . . according to TWI
On the contrary, Christ is The Word. In which case TWI logic makes no sense.
TWI did not make a big deal out of the absent Christ; the TVTs did.
Here is that ONE tiny PASSAGE in the PFAL book:
"I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ, and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God’s Word."
TWI did not make a big deal out of the absent Christ; the TVTs did.
Here is that ONE tiny PASSAGE in the PFAL book:
"I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ, and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God’s Word."
How about nothing takes Christ's place ever. We may represent him and we may point to him but we never take his place.
TWI did not make a big deal out of the absent Christ; the TVTs did.
Here is that ONE tiny PASSAGE in the PFAL book:
"I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ, and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God’s Word."
I just posted an article from The Way International's website, an article from 2022.
"Every day we can awake with enthusiasm and excitement to take the place of the absent Christ, reconciling men and women back to God in Christ’s stead."
This "Absent Christ" idea persists in spite of any memory of any book you may have.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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Bolshevik
When God created in Genesis he spoke things into being. The Logos --> Christ --> The Word. Out of chaos came creation.
As a new human being the world and life is chaos. As we grow and understand things our minds give persons, places, things, emotions, concepts, ideas etc . . . we give them names. Out of the perceived chaos our minds create meaning over time. Anytime we go into something new this happens.
Not sure where I'm going with that but the connection between language and creation and The Logos I think is neat.
In that way the use of language can be considered part of the act of creation.
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OldSkool
Thanks!! Cool perspective I'd never considered!
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Mike
No, I'm not talking about infinitives, nor anything grammatical.
What I am trying to point out is that, ALTHOUGH the words "hidden" and "absent" are very different in ordinary usage, in THIS usage things are different.
When people make something invisible, such invisibility is most often detectable and thwart-able. The classic H.G. Wells story of an invisible man had it's interesting exceptions to the invisibility, such as snow and rain.
Human devised invisibility is not absolute, and someone could be present, but still not absent. If the invisibility were busted, then the absence would have been only one of perception.
That was what I meant by "raw" definitions. The way we define words, "absent" and "hidden" have some big differences, in spite of a few similarities.
But when these words are involved in an action taken by God Almighty, then things can change in how the situation is viewed. Here the perception of hidden is much stronger, and the difference between "hidden" and "absent" erodes.
But this word "absent" was not used in the class to signify any kind of lack of awareness on Jesus part of our situations. It was used ONCE in the class to describe OUR PERSPECTIVE of Jesus physical presence in this time before the Return.
Had VPW done other teachings involving Jesus being absent or unaware or disconnected, then THAT would have been wrong of him. Instead, what happened is the idea of an absent Christ was strengthened and repeated in other contexts in the TVTs, but not in the teachings.
What I noticed with many grads is that they would rather pick something up in a TVT (Twi Verbal Tradition) than pick up a collateral to get something with better detail and accuracy.
VPW did not teach an absent Christ.
He used the word "absent" once to describe our perspective until the Return. VPW taught the opposite of an absent Christ. In his last book he included an entire chapter to fight this TVT on the "super absent Christ" that grabbed so many minds in TWI.
Anyone want to guess which chapter in OMSW taught us to seek the very present and findable Jesus?
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waysider
And, yet, this is precisely what you are doing in this very post.
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Bolshevik
https://thewayinternational.com/reconciling-others-in-christs-stead/
What about "in stead of Christ"?
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Mike
I don't see what you mean. I am not technically familiar with infinitives in grammar. Maybe you can explain with details?
I am only focused on Acts 1, and how strongly God hid Jesus with that cloud, and for how long he would remain hidden.
A God-hidden Jesus could be described as "absent" once, as long as the context is clear that it is from our point of view that he is inaccessible.
If that word "absent" had been used lots of ways and in lots of teachings, then we'd have had a bigger problem. The word "absent" got picked up by the TVTs and it was given life it did not deserve. People who paid more attention to the TVTs, instead of the collaterals and the Bible, got robbed.
Yes, this was a problem in the ministry, that relationships with Jesus Christ were confounded by the overly absent Christ in the TVTs.
It will be interesting to see the last attempt by VPW to fix this, which was an entire chapter in his last book. I posted on this almost exactly 20 years ago here. Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about? The absent Christ was a raging issue here 20 years ago. I wonder if anyone remembers?
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Bolshevik
"We have Christ in us, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27). We have the potential of Christ’s heart, commitment, and ability to reach others with God’s powerful Word of deliverance."
Christ in you to The Way means Christ's potential.
Christ is absent, it sounds.
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OldSkool
Mike...you are back peddling and changing your position yet again....
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Bolshevik
"Today, Jesus Christ is seated in the heavenlies at God’s own right hand, functioning as the head of the Church of the Body, as it says in Ephesians 1; but he did not leave his role on earth unattended. He delegated to born-again believers the power and authority to carry out his works, and greater, in his stead. It’s now our joy to assume this responsibility and represent him with all confidence."
Christ left earth, he's not here, so . . . . absent.
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Bolshevik
https://www.google.com/search?q=absent+definition&rlz=1C1GCEB_enMX783MX783&oq=absent+defin&aqs=chrome.0.0i512j69i57j0i512j0i22i30l2j0i15i22i30l2j0i22i30l3.2411j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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Mike
The phrase in that article is "in Christ's stead" and I am not very familiar with that use of the word stead. I am wondering about it's etymology; is it related to "steady" ?
There is SOMETHING to learned by God hiding Christ on the day of the Ascension. No one seems to want to take that as a positive act on God's part.
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OldSkool
Maybe u can learn to admit your error.
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Mike
It's not the focus of my efforts any more, but I will mention it when it comes up in context. I did not abandon my position; just demoted how much attention I put into promoting of it.
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Bolshevik
It's simple wordplay.
We are here IN STEAD OF CHRIST.
The rest of the article I posted makes that abundantly above all that we could ask or think clear.
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Mike
With more detail:
Jesus Christ left the physical realm. He is physically absent.
At the same time, Jesus Christ is spiritually present in anyone who believes in him.
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Bolshevik
Now you're calling upon fantasy, the spirit realm, to explain whatever gap you need to feel in control of.
"During Jesus Christ’s ministry on this earth, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Today the work of reconciling men and women to God is not the work of Christ but the work of born-again believers, who have been given the Word and the ministry of reconciliation. We are ambassadors for the Lord Jesus Christ, and we have the joy of reconciling others to God in Christ’s stead. We do this with God’s Word and with His power."
The Word takes the place of the Absent Christ. . . . according to TWI
On the contrary, Christ is The Word. In which case TWI logic makes no sense.
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waysider
Which is why you have no business pretending to have cornered the market on interpreting the complexities of scripture.
Edited by waysidermissed a word
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OldSkool
Cause you are proven wrong again and again multiple times from multiple participants...when u know your wrong you scoot out the way.
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Mike
TWI did not make a big deal out of the absent Christ; the TVTs did.
Here is that ONE tiny PASSAGE in the PFAL book:
"I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ, and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God’s Word."
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OldSkool
Yeah they do..to this day...in their classes...word of God takes the place of the absent Christ.
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OldSkool
How about nothing takes Christ's place ever. We may represent him and we may point to him but we never take his place.
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Mike
I don't buy that empty virtue signalling.
If God appoints us to take Jesus' place while he is hidden, then who are you to forbid God?
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Bolshevik
I just posted an article from The Way International's website, an article from 2022.
"Every day we can awake with enthusiasm and excitement to take the place of the absent Christ, reconciling men and women back to God in Christ’s stead."
This "Absent Christ" idea persists in spite of any memory of any book you may have.
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Bolshevik
Here's the link,
AGAIN
https://thewayinternational.com/reconciling-others-in-christs-stead/
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