Don't make it sound like it was considered completely sound doctrine until the day before Ratzinger/Benedict OFFICIALLY discontinued it. He made official what was already thought long before that.
George Carlin was under the impression it was gone long before that. In his album "Class Clown" in 1972, he addressed that very thing. (No, he was factually incorrect, but he got the idea from what people thought at the time was official doctrine.)
"Limbo was where they sent unbaptized babies. The thinking was, it wasn't their fault. Can't see God if you're not baptized, whip ém into Limbo! What was Limbo like? *odd sounds* *odd voice* 'Wel-come to Limbo.' They've since cancelled Limbo. Apparently, when they purged a couple of saints, they called off Limbo as well. I hope they promoted everyone, you know, and didn't just cut them off into space."
I think the audio is on YT somewhere if you're curious. (Don't hotlink it unless you want YT to delete the file.) "
----------------------------------------
Oldiesman:
"The very fact that it was sound doctrine for centuries leads me to think that we in this century can be wrong and not centuries before. Traditional Catholics pride themselves on tradition and age-old concepts so why would this concept be any different. George Carlin said there is no God. If he said there is no heaven, hell, limbo, etc. should we believe him. He is very funny and a gifted entertainer; but is it wise for a believer to take serious spiritual advice from an unbeliever?"
---------------------------------
I suppose it was too much to hope the old "I'll find something you didn't say, claim you said it, and object to it" Oldiesman was gone for good.....
I quoted Carlin, and said that my point was "(No, he was factually incorrect, but he got the idea from what people thought at the time was official doctrine.)" As a stand-up comedian, his job involved observing the culture around him and composing comedy. So, I quoted him to point out people thought this concept was deprecated long before Ratzinger/Benedict. As of 1972, that was in the air. That was the sole point. I also said outright that he was FACTUALLY INCORRECT. So, to skip my one point to focus on points I didn't make is, at least, silly.
The other problem is your claim about the history of Limbo. You said
"The very fact that it was sound doctrine for centuries leads me to think that we in this century can be wrong and not centuries before. "
"The concept of limbo probably developed in Europe in the Middle Ages but was never defined as a church dogma, and reference to it was omitted from the official catechism of the church that was issued in 1992."
I'm not interested in splitting hairs over the titles the RCC gives everything. However, the RCC never made Limbo a church dogma. That sounds to me like the opposite of saying it was considered "sound doctrine." Otherwise, there would have been encyclicals and everything affirming it. Since 1543 (the Council of Trent), there's been debate as to specifics of Limbo- which were not settled with a Papal decree- unless you count 2007's de-facto calling it off. For that matter, whatever led up to 1992 pretty much decided that the doctrine was kaput. So, again, as of the 1970s, some people thought it had already been called-off.
If you feel the need to continue this fruitless diversion, please go to Doctrinal and start a new thread.
Nope you made a good case for it to be called into question. Thx.
Loy Craig had this kind of authority as far back as 1976?!?
When did victor rub oil on Loy’s head? 1982?
I apologize for another diversion but I just remembered something else: that was the night that Sunny Sanders left as well. I believe she was asst. corps director or something like that. She was a nice person and I didn't spend any time with her on campus, even to talk. Guess she was tired of all the BS and I suspect she has many stories to tell.
Does faith imply obedience? Find out for yourself.
I’m not finished thinking about this asserted claim, but I’m inclined, at this moment, to suspect some theological maneuvering.
I think the more important implication is a subtle, sinister one: faith implies obedience - obedience to the clergy.
How will you learn, unless you are taught? And who will teach you? A man of God, of course! How will you know he is a man of God? He himself will say so of himself.
That does seem like something that's easy to turn into something self-serving. It's a little like the moment in pfal when vpw talks about giving to charity, and suggests giving the money to Bible research or something, and makes a small grin like he's joking.
Apparently there was much spiritual chaos, at least a little too much for Craig to handle, so he gathered all everyone on campus (even the college kids) to meet up in the Ermal Owens Sunshine Room and he dismissed everyone in the 6th corps. This was Sunday, March 7, 1976. Then he said that anybody who wanted to re-commit themselves to the corps program can do so. I think he may have passed around a clipboard but I don't remember now. But I do remember that I wanted to recommit myself but earlier in the day, Craig personally dismissed me in his office, so his offer to the whole corps didn't apply to me. Then I found out later that a sizable number of people didn't recommit themselves... so that was how that all happened.
I knew someone who was in the 6th corps and he must have re-committed himself because I'm pretty sure he was eventually ordained.
I hope lcm calmly discussed with you his reason(s) for dismissing you. The way he handled it though (dismissing people one on one in his office) does seem contrary to the anger he was known to show. If it was going to be done, I'm glad he did it that way.
Apparently there was much spiritual chaos, at least a little too much for Craig to handle, so he gathered all everyone on campus (even the college kids) to meet up in the Ermal Owens Sunshine Room and he dismissed everyone in the 6th corps. This was Sunday, March 7, 1976. Then he said that anybody who wanted to re-commit themselves to the corps program can do so. I think he may have passed around a clipboard but I don't remember now. But I do remember that I wanted to recommit myself but earlier in the day, Craig personally dismissed me in his office, so his offer to the whole corps didn't apply to me. Then I found out later that a sizable number of people didn't recommit themselves... so that was how that all happened.
I think they may have done this once a year to different corps groups.
"1974-1975
"After talking with LCM one day, Dr dismissed all the corps for bad attitude problems.
He told them
'Ok, as of right now, you're all out of the corps.'
He then made it available to all of them to reapply to him by filling out a 3 x 5 card,
The card had to express their willingness to obey leadership. Some of them
decided to leave rather than obey."
=================================
I have to hand it to those who saw they were being jerked around and left.
That does seem like something that's easy to turn into something self-serving. It's a little like the moment in pfal when vpw talks about giving to charity, and suggests giving the money to Bible research or something, and makes a small grin like he's joking.
It might have done the trick concerning his son. I'm pretty sure the son had grown up in twi but he did this huge self-destructive rebellion later on in life. He's now a senior pastor at the church his ex-twi-leader-father started and teaches the same you-can-lose-your-salvation doctrine.
"vp and me in wonderland." It examines the auto-biographical book lcm wrote, with discussions about his personal history and his own accounts of things, and analysis of same.
"vp and me in wonderland." It examines the auto-biographical book lcm wrote, with discussions about his personal history and his own accounts of things, and analysis of same.
Apparently there was much spiritual chaos, at least a little too much for Craig to handle, so he gathered all everyone on campus (even the college kids) to meet up in the Ermal Owens Sunshine Room and he dismissed everyone in the 6th corps. This was Sunday, March 7, 1976. Then he said that anybody who wanted to re-commit themselves to the corps program can do so. I think he may have passed around a clipboard but I don't remember now. But I do remember that I wanted to recommit myself but earlier in the day, Craig personally dismissed me in his office, so his offer to the whole corps didn't apply to me. Then I found out later that a sizable number of people didn't recommit themselves... so that was how that all happened.
Sorry that happened to you oldies.
I remember upon more than one occasion of needing to turn in various little slips of paper indicating my compliance with, stand with, or support of various leaders having a particularly strong paranoia attack.
But the 6th Corps was also legendary for other shenanigans like the downstairs grill and pool area and the guy sleeping fugit elbowed in the gut to stand and do manifestations in the middle of Corps night teaching lol.
But the 6th Corps was also legendary for other shenanigans like the downstairs grill and pool area and the guy sleeping fugit elbowed in the gut to stand and do manifestations in the middle of Corps night teaching lol.
Like, "Mogadishu kuala lumpur jakarta lo shonta..."
(That'll show him not to sleep during corps night teaching!)
"vp and me in wonderland." It examines the auto-biographical book lcm wrote, with discussions about his personal history and his own accounts of things, and analysis of same.
I want to thank you, again, WordWolf, for the link VP and Me.
It's been a challenging week, and just a cursory reading of this drivel has me laughing hysterically. Gold. Pure gold.
Apparently there was much spiritual chaos, at least a little too much for Craig to handle, so he gathered all everyone on campus (even the college kids) to meet up in the Ermal Owens Sunshine Room and he dismissed everyone in the 6th corps. This was Sunday, March 7, 1976. Then he said that anybody who wanted to re-commit themselves to the corps program can do so. I think he may have passed around a clipboard but I don't remember now. But I do remember that I wanted to recommit myself but earlier in the day, Craig personally dismissed me in his office, so his offer to the whole corps didn't apply to me. Then I found out later that a sizable number of people didn't recommit themselves... so that was how that all happened.
It was scripted and staged. The same thing happened in FellowLaborers at the same time. What a co-winky-dink,eh? There was nothing spontaneous about it. It was all about eliciting control.
I remember upon more than one occasion of needing to turn in various little slips of paper indicating my compliance with, stand with, or support of various leaders having a particularly strong paranoia attack.
But the 6th Corps was also legendary for other shenanigans like the downstairs grill and pool area and the guy sleeping fugit elbowed in the gut to stand and do manifestations in the middle of Corps night teaching lol.
Any similar stories there? Curiosity lol.
Hard to remember. Are you talking about the guy who was carried to the teaching center in his pajamas? He had a habit of sleeping through teachings so they finally decided to wake him up and carry him to the front of class... he took it like a sport and later became a Rev. I do remember the hitchhiking trip from Emporia to HQ and back, and how I fought with my partner all the way there, took us twice as long to get there, then when time came to go back to the college, asking Craig if I could go back alone he said yes, and it took me half the time doing it alone.
It was scripted and staged. The same thing happened in FellowLaborers at the same time. What a co-winky-dink,eh? There was nothing spontaneous about it. It was all about eliciting control.
Okay, I get it now. Forget what I wrote earlier about how better it was that martindale did this with the 6th corps instead of having a meltdown and yelling at everyone to get the heck out.
Hard to remember. Are you talking about the guy who was carried to the teaching center in his pajamas? He had a habit of sleeping through teachings so they finally decided to wake him up and carry him to the front of class... he took it like a sport and later became a Rev. I do remember the hitchhiking trip from Emporia to HQ and back, and how I fought with my partner all the way there, took us twice as long to get there, then when time came to go back to the college, asking Craig if I could go back alone he said yes, and it took me half the time doing it alone.
Naw some story Donnie Fugit told me.
Actually same shiz different Corps on the hitchhiking. HQ to Gunnison. Reproof session for arriving 3 hrs late. Got luckier on way home and arrived a day early and slept lol.
Are you talking about the guy who was carried to the teaching center in his pajamas? He had a habit of sleeping through teachings so they finally decided to wake him up and carry him to the front of class... he took it like a sport and later became a Rev.
Thats funny! When I was in-rez out a Gunnison one of my good friends was sitting in the back of the auditorium when we were at a live STS that the campus coordinator taught. Well, Rodney fell asleep in the back where he was seated but they broadcast the service over the campus and he was dead on the camera. He was literally the laughing stock for a while and all of could relate cause we all dozed off from time to time. His brother was on staff at the time and the best part was hearing his brother roast him as only a brother can.
I saw a picture of vp (courtesy of a Toledo magazine) for the first time in Charlene's book "Undertow." If you haven't seen it, this is what it looks like. On page 91, vp is at a podium with his open Bible so he's obviously teaching. Behind him are the words , I AM THE WAY in large letters at the top and beneath it is an outline of an open book. You can't see much of this part because vp and the podium are covering it up, but twi followers would know what was written there. In smaller letters it would have said THE WORD OF GOD on the left and THE WILL OF GOD on the right (with a little "is" somewhere in the middle). This obviously was a slogan invented by vp and was repeated by believers everywhere. (In the beginning of the first session of the class, vp proclaims this dogma in full: "The first and most basic key for abundant living is that the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God.")
So here's what jumped out at me from the picture. Directly over vp's head are the words I AM THE WAY. It doesn't have "Jesus says" above this and if the Bible verse John 14:6 is shown on the bottom, you can't see it. Back then, I would have just thought that the words, of course, referred to what Jesus said, but to me now, seeing this image and knowing about the absent Christ, I quickly connected the statement I AM THE WAY to vp himself. Would I have made that connection if someone else was teaching at that podium - no. But anyone else was not vp - believed to be the "man of God for our day and time."
Did twi plan it to look this way? Was it supposed to be a subliminal message to the believers? Who knows.
The heaviness I felt in my heart last week when I wanted to have every memory of my time in twi swallowed up by a dark hole someway in a galaxy far, far away has lifted. The beginning of a new spiritual relationship with God and Jesus feels more real to me now. Without twi telling me what I need do and think as a believer in their ministry, there's now the sense of a freedom and even joy. You know what It's like when you spend a long evening with a large group of people in your house and then once they all leave, you can finally get to be alone with the one (or ones) who mean the most in your life. It's like that. The Way has left the building!
Still being active both on GSC and with reading Undertow, I can better handle references to the twi created with their practices and doctrine because I can now contrast them with what's happening in my life now. Thanks again for all your help and support.
The heaviness I felt in my heart last week when I wanted to have every memory of my time in twi swallowed up by a dark hole someway in a galaxy far, far away has lifted. The beginning of a new spiritual relationship with God and Jesus feels more real to me now. Without twi telling me what I need do and think as a believer in their ministry, there's now the sense of a freedom and even joy. You know what It's like when you spend a long evening with a large group of people in your house and then once they all leave, you can finally get to be alone with the one (or ones) who mean the most in your life. It's like that. The Way has left the building!
Still being active both on GSC and with reading Undertow, I can better handle references to the twi created with their practices and doctrine because I can now contrast them with what's happening in my life now. Thanks again for all your help and support.
I am so happy read this!!!!!! Your welcome, Im just glad that I was able to help a little and very awesome to hear you are able to start putting TWI in the rearview. More importantly, you are on strong footing in your faith because it's on the Rock - Christ Jesus!!
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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oldiesman
Nope you made a good case for it to be called into question. Thx.
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oldiesman
He was the corps director... but I suspect he called VP first.
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oldiesman
I apologize for another diversion but I just remembered something else: that was the night that Sunny Sanders left as well. I believe she was asst. corps director or something like that. She was a nice person and I didn't spend any time with her on campus, even to talk. Guess she was tired of all the BS and I suspect she has many stories to tell.
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WordWolf
That does seem like something that's easy to turn into something self-serving. It's a little like the moment in pfal when vpw talks about giving to charity, and suggests giving the money to Bible research or something, and makes a small grin like he's joking.
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Charity
I knew someone who was in the 6th corps and he must have re-committed himself because I'm pretty sure he was eventually ordained.
I hope lcm calmly discussed with you his reason(s) for dismissing you. The way he handled it though (dismissing people one on one in his office) does seem contrary to the anger he was known to show. If it was going to be done, I'm glad he did it that way.
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WordWolf
I think they may have done this once a year to different corps groups.
"1974-1975
"After talking with LCM one day, Dr dismissed all the corps for bad attitude problems.
He told them
'Ok, as of right now, you're all out of the corps.'
He then made it available to all of them to reapply to him by filling out a 3 x 5 card,
The card had to express their willingness to obey leadership. Some of them
decided to leave rather than obey."
=================================
I have to hand it to those who saw they were being jerked around and left.
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WordWolf
Um, you're welcome.
Bartender, next round here's on me.
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Charity
It might have done the trick concerning his son. I'm pretty sure the son had grown up in twi but he did this huge self-destructive rebellion later on in life. He's now a senior pastor at the church his ex-twi-leader-father started and teaches the same you-can-lose-your-salvation doctrine.
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WordWolf
Nathan Jr,
If you want to get a better sense of lcm's history with twi, there's a thread for you.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8019-vp-and-me-in-wonderland/
"vp and me in wonderland." It examines the auto-biographical book lcm wrote, with discussions about his personal history and his own accounts of things, and analysis of same.
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Nathan_Jr
He made it available? Of course. How can you get something if it's not available? What is the source of this quote?
Did anyone here submit a pledge of allegiance on a 3x5 card? What does that look like?
This is simultaneously horrifying and hilarious. Cults and their 3x5 cards!
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks!
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chockfull
Sorry that happened to you oldies.
I remember upon more than one occasion of needing to turn in various little slips of paper indicating my compliance with, stand with, or support of various leaders having a particularly strong paranoia attack.
But the 6th Corps was also legendary for other shenanigans like the downstairs grill and pool area and the guy sleeping fugit elbowed in the gut to stand and do manifestations in the middle of Corps night teaching lol.
Any similar stories there? Curiosity lol.
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Nathan_Jr
Like, "Mogadishu kuala lumpur jakarta lo shonta..."
(That'll show him not to sleep during corps night teaching!)
What at comedy!
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OldSkool
Ahhhh! Mogashoniay lmaka eleevetay!
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Nathan_Jr
I want to thank you, again, WordWolf, for the link VP and Me.
It's been a challenging week, and just a cursory reading of this drivel has me laughing hysterically. Gold. Pure gold.
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waysider
It was scripted and staged. The same thing happened in FellowLaborers at the same time. What a co-winky-dink,eh? There was nothing spontaneous about it. It was all about eliciting control.
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oldiesman
Hard to remember. Are you talking about the guy who was carried to the teaching center in his pajamas? He had a habit of sleeping through teachings so they finally decided to wake him up and carry him to the front of class... he took it like a sport and later became a Rev. I do remember the hitchhiking trip from Emporia to HQ and back, and how I fought with my partner all the way there, took us twice as long to get there, then when time came to go back to the college, asking Craig if I could go back alone he said yes, and it took me half the time doing it alone.
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Charity
Okay, I get it now. Forget what I wrote earlier about how better it was that martindale did this with the 6th corps instead of having a meltdown and yelling at everyone to get the heck out.
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Charity
It's like that old comforting statement when something goes bad, "don't worry, one day you'll look back on this and laugh."
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chockfull
Naw some story Donnie Fugit told me.
Actually same shiz different Corps on the hitchhiking. HQ to Gunnison. Reproof session for arriving 3 hrs late. Got luckier on way home and arrived a day early and slept lol.
Stanford prison experiment bullshonta.
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OldSkool
Thats funny! When I was in-rez out a Gunnison one of my good friends was sitting in the back of the auditorium when we were at a live STS that the campus coordinator taught. Well, Rodney fell asleep in the back where he was seated but they broadcast the service over the campus and he was dead on the camera. He was literally the laughing stock for a while and all of could relate cause we all dozed off from time to time. His brother was on staff at the time and the best part was hearing his brother roast him as only a brother can.
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Charity
I saw a picture of vp (courtesy of a Toledo magazine) for the first time in Charlene's book "Undertow." If you haven't seen it, this is what it looks like. On page 91, vp is at a podium with his open Bible so he's obviously teaching. Behind him are the words , I AM THE WAY in large letters at the top and beneath it is an outline of an open book. You can't see much of this part because vp and the podium are covering it up, but twi followers would know what was written there. In smaller letters it would have said THE WORD OF GOD on the left and THE WILL OF GOD on the right (with a little "is" somewhere in the middle). This obviously was a slogan invented by vp and was repeated by believers everywhere. (In the beginning of the first session of the class, vp proclaims this dogma in full: "The first and most basic key for abundant living is that the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God.")
So here's what jumped out at me from the picture. Directly over vp's head are the words I AM THE WAY. It doesn't have "Jesus says" above this and if the Bible verse John 14:6 is shown on the bottom, you can't see it. Back then, I would have just thought that the words, of course, referred to what Jesus said, but to me now, seeing this image and knowing about the absent Christ, I quickly connected the statement I AM THE WAY to vp himself. Would I have made that connection if someone else was teaching at that podium - no. But anyone else was not vp - believed to be the "man of God for our day and time."
Did twi plan it to look this way? Was it supposed to be a subliminal message to the believers? Who knows.
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Charity
The heaviness I felt in my heart last week when I wanted to have every memory of my time in twi swallowed up by a dark hole someway in a galaxy far, far away has lifted. The beginning of a new spiritual relationship with God and Jesus feels more real to me now. Without twi telling me what I need do and think as a believer in their ministry, there's now the sense of a freedom and even joy. You know what It's like when you spend a long evening with a large group of people in your house and then once they all leave, you can finally get to be alone with the one (or ones) who mean the most in your life. It's like that. The Way has left the building!
Still being active both on GSC and with reading Undertow, I can better handle references to the
twi created with their practices and doctrine because I can now contrast them with what's happening in my life now. Thanks again for all your help and support.
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OldSkool
I am so happy read this!!!!!! Your welcome, Im just glad that I was able to help a little and very awesome to hear you are able to start putting TWI in the rearview. More importantly, you are on strong footing in your faith because it's on the Rock - Christ Jesus!!
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