'Christ’ is literally ‘anointed’. Jesussaid he had to leave so that his disciples could receive their own anointing(John 16:7). So what was his anointing?
(Luke 4:18, AV) “The Spirit of the Lordisupon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,”
The anointing a believer has is to preach the Word, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and to become a servant as he was.Perhaps this is what was meant by the Word taking the place of the absent Christ,though it was perhaps worded in a way that is easily misunderstood.There were some aspects of the Way International teaching that possibly distracted from Jesus’ approach to the gospel
Although I can’t say VPW knew he was misleading in some things he taught, his approach to the scripture was quite narrow and perhaps distorted by his own longing.The main foundation for the Way International was ‘Power For Abundant Living’.He built a broken cistern on Chapters 12 and 14 of 1 Corinthians, a reproof epistle. Power really appeals to the natural man. What’s interesting about that is that Chapter 13, the middle of the ‘sandwich’ is where most of the spiritually nutritional value comes. "Love, Service, Giving, Obedience, and Humility for Abundant Living"just doesn’t have the same ring to it as "Power for Abundant Living"…
Tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.
One could argue for the evangelizing value of that. And maybe that’s all he meant at the time.
Sometimes I get into wondering how a cult-leader develops. Did the “tell me what you think of Jesus” question morph into galvanizing and polarizing strategies? In other words, do you believe in Jesus the way I do? If so, then you’re cool - you belong in my group. If not - you could be possessed -cuz there’s no way you can believe in the divinity of Christ and NOT be possessed.
If you look at what different people said of Jesus in the Gospels and epistles you’ll find a wide variety of impressions.
It’s cool to ask questions like “what do you think of Jesus?”. But it should be an open question. I think it’s manipulative and a sucker punch if someone is setting me up to condemn me for thinking of Jesus in a different way than they do.
Tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.
One could argue for the evangelizing value of that. And maybe that’s all he meant at the time.
Sometimes I get into wondering how a cult-leader develops. Did the “tell me what you think of Jesus” question morph into galvanizing and polarizing strategies? In other words, do you believe in Jesus the way I do? If so, then you’re cool - you belong in my group. If not - you could be possessed -cuz there’s no way you can believe in the divinity of Christ and NOT be possessed.
If you look at what different people said of Jesus in the Gospels and epistles you’ll find a wide variety of impressions.
It’s cool to ask questions like “what do you think of Jesus?”. But it should be an open question. I think it’s manipulative and a sucker punch if someone is setting me up to condemn me for thinking of Jesus in a different way than they do.
Yep seems like you have to look at what somebody does to know whether they believe what they're saying... if there was ever a poster boy for galvanizing and polarizing strategies Jesus would qualify. It's interesting in light of that the records are ambiguous enough that people can wonder whether or not he was a trinitarian.
Yep seems like you have to look at what somebody does to know whether they believe what they're saying... if there was ever a poster boy for galvanizing and polarizing strategies Jesus would qualify. It's interesting in light of that the records are ambiguous enough that people can wonder whether or not he was a trinitarian.
Ha! You got me thinking !
it would have been nice if Jesus have a little more info about himself
Tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.
One could argue for the evangelizing value of that. And maybe that’s all he meant at the time.n they do.
At the time the class was filmed, 1967 and the Summer of Love were happening.For years it had been building, but new religions were sprouting all over in the baby-boom population. MANY of them were professing allegiance to Jesus, as well as to Buddha, Confucius, you name it, both ancient and current.
It was very common back then for intellectuals to say Jesus was cool, but it was in a Biblically degraded sense.
So that part of the class spoke loudly to this old hippie.
Tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.
One could argue for the evangelizing value of that. And maybe that’s all he meant at the time.
Sometimes I get into wondering how a cult-leader develops. Did the “tell me what you think of Jesus” question morph into galvanizing and polarizing strategies? In other words, do you believe in Jesus the way I do? If so, then you’re cool - you belong in my group. If not - you could be possessed -cuz there’s no way you can believe in the divinity of Christ and NOT be possessed.
If you look at what different people said of Jesus in the Gospels and epistles you’ll find a wide variety of impressions.
It’s cool to ask questions like “what do you think of Jesus?”. But it should be an open question. I think it’s manipulative and a sucker punch if someone is setting me up to condemn me for thinking of Jesus in a different way than they do.
It started out with broad, grand statements like the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God, but quickly devolved into a spiritual bonsai tree, with nutrition stunted, light limited, and limbs pruned and tied off into grotesque caricature of their natural development. The result bore little resemblence to the gospel the Lord had brought, lived, and died for. It is no wonder that so many people, gazing back at a life they were so invested in, are not merely puzzled, but horrified, at the ways in which they were misled.
Fortunately, God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will, so we can be assured that the wrongs will be righted and the tears wiped away.
It is no wonder that so many people, gazing back at a life they were so invested in, are not merely puzzled, but horrified, at the ways in which they were misled.
Right here. Great assessment ..Mike...this is the fruit of wierwillian...pflap...etc......false doctrine.
There is NO logic or rational thinking/analysis in that claim, at all.
Well now. While Mike's claim here is also NOT at all rational or logical, it DOES show that he continues to push people's buttons... or at least try to do so.
WW "gets" Mike... at least to some degree.
But why ANY of you continue to let him toss you around with every wind of psychological manipulation escapes me.
20 fking years. NOBODY ever gets anything in reply/response from him other than crap that fits neatly into the same damn box he's kept you in for TWO decades.
On 10/7/2022 at 10:30 PM, Rocky said:
Okay. Your intentions are noble. Yet, speaking of data, do you have any data to show the approach taken by those who engage with Mike's vain babblings have changed their minds because of those discussions?
I get that you are likely not impressed with the perspective I present now. That's okay.
But, if you really want to change minds of twi refugees, you might want to explore the concept of Deep Canvassing.
Can you reflect back on interactions with Mike and honestly think they would be considered Deep Canvassing types of conversations?
I appreciate that you read extensively on psychology issues.
To answer your questions. I was asking any/all readers those questions.
There's an old saying, "if the foo poops, wear it." or something like that...
Oh, correction, if the shoe fits...
If nobody finds the questions relevant, so be it.
However, declaring Mike's schtick pathetic hasn't made any progress, either, right?
I'll grant that I have been dismissive of Mike's antics and his claims and his reverence for PFLAP and Wierwille.
But my objective wasn't to get him to like me or listen to my perspective either. Was it yours?
I figured that 20 years of doing the same thing and expecting any different outcome wasn't worth my time.
But I share perspective and values with the rest of the people on this thread.
Have I taken an approach that everyone will consider? Probably not.
But with you, T-Bone, I share a curiosity about matters of the mind and human behavior/conduct. So, I thought it possible you might be interested in Deep Canvassing and McRaney's book.
One thing necessary to get people to consider changing their minds, according to what I've read recently, is empathy.
I haven't demonstrated empathy toward Mike. So I don't expect him to care in the least about what I have to say to or about him.
On 10/7/2022 at 11:55 PM, Rocky said:
No. I simply believe those reacting to you could be a bit wiser in how they let you push their buttons... whether that's your intent or not, it's the ultimate result.
I do think it's absurd to realize we've all been having virtually the exact same discussion with NO apparent common ground found. You stated, earlier today that you believe you're correct and everyone else is wrong as it concerns twi and PFLAP.
20 years. Something or somebody really should consider figuring out how to actually "connect" such that you give genuine consideration to viewpoints on GSC you've stubbornly refused to do so.
And if threads like this are going to be anything different than they've been for two decades, perhaps people here might benefit from figuring out a way to find tidbits of your message that they/we could acknowledge as valid.
I don't know how to do so at this time, however.
Hi Rocky,
It’s taken me awhile to process all this. Please accept my sincere apology.
I had an epiphany recently – and shared about it on another thread – here - …I often forget I’m a recovering a$$-hole and sometimes I fall off the wagon when I allow certain buttons to get pushed. I appreciate the clarity, thoughtfulness, new ideas, and friendly boldness you bring to Grease Spot. My new strategy is to ignore the temptation.
Sometimes after a fight – when we’ve declared a cease fire – my wife and I will exchange these words of elegant tolerance “thanks for putting up with me”. That’s my message to you and other Grease Spotters.
Sometimes after a fight – when we’ve declared a cease fire – my wife and I will exchange these words of elegant tolerance “thanks for putting up with me”. That’s my message to you and other Grease Spotters.
Not that I needed or expected an apology of any kind from you T-Bone, but I do appreciate your capacity to reflect and re-evaluate.
It is no wonder that so many people, gazing back at a life they were so invested in, are not merely puzzled, but horrified, at the ways in which they were misled.
Fortunately, God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will, so we can be assured that the wrongs will be righted and the tears wiped away.
I very much appreciate Fred's insight as quoted.
The second paragraph I quoted above is very meaningful to me and has been for years. The way I look at it is such that we are the sum total of our experience and learning. Whether we remain victims of Wierwille's con game or not is within our power to decide. At least a few times, I have spelled out some of the things Vic and Loy influenced me to incorporate in my life and how those things have caused me pain in relationships for a long time. In some cases, the pain is ongoing.
Yet, I wouldn't be who I am or know what I now know or be able to do or write what I do without having endured crucibles that forced me to face up to my faults and mistakes.
I am content in my own skin and very thankful for being a survivor. Nevertheless, I expect to continue to confront, one way or another, BS like Mike's and cult-like nonsense I encounter in civic life.
Btw, whether I agree with your values, Dear Reader, or not, I encourage you to exercise your citizenship and vote in the upcoming election. Thanks to early voting, I already have done so.
I was reading this account in Luke where Jesus said Satan has desired to sift Peter like wheat…and this thread and a few comparisons between a cult-leader and Jesus Christ came to mind…such as wierwille’s fondness for fear mongering over the devil to intimidate TWI-followers into cowering behind his hollow leadership and toeing the line or else it’s curtains for you…
I also thought of what little confidence wierwille showed in the abilities of others as he usually tried to micromanage everyone…The most contrasting thing starts in the 24th verse of Luke 22…think about all the times wierwille would go on and on about the greatest leader should be the greatest servant – but most of what he did was sit back on his duff and demand people treat him like visiting royalty.
As for the rest of us - in TWI there’s usually never a dispute over who is the greatest because there’s a clearly defined hierarchy – one moves up in status and authority as you go from PFAL to other classes to the Advanced Class, or other acceptable routes like WOW to way corps…anyway here’s Luke 22:
A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest.Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors.But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table?
But I am among you as one who serves.You are those who have stood by me in my trials.And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me,so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”
34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”Luke 22: 24 – 34
One of my study Bibles suggested this dispute may have prompted the episode where Christ washed their feetJohn 13. That has a lot more impact than wierwille’s impotent armchair quarterbacking.
For Jesus to single out Simon this may be significant for a couple of reasons. Jesus Christ Himself had given the new name of Peter to Simon. Was Peter one of the more vocal disciples in this dispute? Was Peter reverting back to his old ways before he met Jesus?
There’s lots of mentoring going on in this passage – and Jesus doesn’t sugarcoat the challenges but He’s basically saying that trials have a refining process on believers, and He assures Peter He is praying for him to hang in there – even though he’s going to experience failures his faith will never be squashed. Jesus Christ never gave up on his disciples...I remember in the way corps wierwille would go on and on about if you ever trip out or cop out of the ministry you're doomed to oblivion - whatever that means. I remember sometimes when he'd get on a rant about that, I'd have some morbid death wish or something - like I hope someone shoots me dead or I have a heart attack and die before I trip out or cop out...it's weird how all-consuming cult-indoctrination can become.
Even when Peter failed miserably – denying his Lord. Jesus is a big fan of the repentance process. Jesus believed in the ability of people to bounce back and in turn strengthen others ( verse 32 )…and check out John 21: 18, 19Jesus foretells that Peter will remain committed unto death to the glory of God.
Considering Jesus Christ’s transcendence and immanence – I can’t imagine Him doing any less for us.
Edited by T-Bone I have sifted this post like word salad...what?!?! does anyone read this stuff down here?
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
This caught my attention. Sort of reminded me of the Book of Job when Satan asked God for permission to hurt Job. What's your take T-Bone?
This caught my attention. Sort of reminded me of the Book of Job when Satan asked God for permission to hurt Job. What's your take T-Bone?
Yeah this account reminded me of that “divine council “ scene in Job too …you might be interested in my post on another thread. Here where I share some stuff from a cultural background study Bible
Considering Jesus Christ’s transcendence and immanence – I can’t imagine Him doing any less for us.
Indeed, and us is..................
Colossians 1:20 KJV
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
its where no child left behind must have come from
Yeah this account reminded me of that “divine council “ scene in Job too …you might be interested in my post on another thread. Here where I share some stuff from a cultural background study Bible
If you haven't seen this, it is pretty interesting and informative, although maybe a little dramatic..
If you haven't seen this, it is pretty interesting and informative, although maybe a little dramatic..
Cool video, FredGrant ! Thanks for posting.
Not to get into this stuff here…but there’s a lot to process in that video…near the end he says something like - as a member of the kingdom of God, this adversary has no claim on you at all…the growth of the kingdom of God means the diminishing of the adversary’s domain.
Some of his ideas are similar to things I’ve read by John Walton – and I went to Heiser’s website and noticed he recommends some of Walton’s books…I like Heiser’s delivery and his thoughtful approach – I’ll have to watch that video a few more times…interesting stuff…I like all the dramatic stuff ! thanks again for posting!
If you haven't seen this, it is pretty interesting and informative, although maybe a little dramatic..
I have wondered for a while if someone would ever reference Michael Heiser. Believe it or not, this is one of his concise lectures. He really loves to hear himself talk, but he knows a lot of Hebrew and really geeks out on the spirit world -- that's his shtick.
I believe if victor had believed big enough to live long enough, he would have scrapped his entire Advanced Class and handed it over to Heiser to teach. Mainly because accurate biblical research is better than stupidity.
At the 23:30 mark he "handles" leviathan more convincingly than victor. Not once does he mention waterhead babies, because, well, that would be just stupid.
Yeah this account reminded me of that “divine council “ scene in Job too …you might be interested in my post on another thread. Here where I share some stuff from a cultural background study Bible
Thank you for that link. I'll go back and read the entire thread on 'idiom of permission'. Worth noting that when TWI taught "God is light and in him is no darkness at all" I took that to mean all (without exception) whatever it is, comes from Satan and never God, without considering the possibility that sometimes evil comes from God for His purposes. Example: A friend recently said to me that the sickness he had came from God, and I told him 'no, Jesus is the Healer, sickness does not come from him.' But now I'm thinking there may be a deeper truth working that I need to know about!
Example: A friend recently said to me that the sickness he had came from God, and I told him 'no, Jesus is the Healer, sickness does not come from him.' But now I'm thinking there may be a deeper truth working that I need to know about!
My granddaughter, Clara Belle (that's short for Helen.), said, "Geeze, Grampaw, don't you guys know nothin'? Sickness comes from cooties."
Thank you for that link. I'll go back and read the entire thread on 'idiom of permission'. Worth noting that when TWI taught "God is light and in him is no darkness at all" I took that to mean all (without exception) whatever it is, comes from Satan and never God, without considering the possibility that sometimes evil comes from God for His purposes. Example: A friend recently said to me that the sickness he had came from God, and I told him 'no, Jesus is the Healer, sickness does not come from him.' But now I'm thinking there may be a deeper truth working that I need to know about!
Cool.
You might find FredGrant’s YouTube on Demons (in above post) helpful too. And note my comments to him after I watched the video. This stuff is all new to me too - and it’s nice to find some sources that are grounded in the actual culture and theological thought process of the people in the Bible.
I’m going to watch that video a few more times - and check out some other videos he has.
My granddaughter, Clara Belle (that's short for Helen.), said, "Geeze, Grampaw, don't you guys know nothin'? Sickness comes from cooties."
That girl has a mind of her own.
It’s funny how some things stay with you. I asked my wife if she wanted to try my latest Irish Coffee concoction so I said “want a sip if you’re not afraid of my cooties.”
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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fredgrant
'Christ’ is literally ‘anointed’. Jesus said he had to leave so that his disciples could receive their own anointing(John 16:7). So what was his anointing?
(Luke 4:18, AV) “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,”
The anointing a believer has is to preach the Word, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and to become a servant as he was. Perhaps this is what was meant by the Word taking the place of the absent Christ,though it was perhaps worded in a way that is easily misunderstood. There were some aspects of the Way International teaching that possibly distracted from Jesus’ approach to the gospel
Although I can’t say VPW knew he was misleading in some things he taught, his approach to the scripture was quite narrow and perhaps distorted by his own longing. The main foundation for the Way International was ‘Power For Abundant Living’. He built a broken cistern on Chapters 12 and 14 of 1 Corinthians, a reproof epistle. Power really appeals to the natural man. What’s interesting about that is that Chapter 13, the middle of the ‘sandwich’ is where most of the spiritually nutritional value comes. "Love, Service, Giving, Obedience, and Humility for Abundant Living" just doesn’t have the same ring to it as "Power for Abundant Living"…
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T-Bone
Remember in PFAL class wierwille says
Tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.
One could argue for the evangelizing value of that. And maybe that’s all he meant at the time.
Sometimes I get into wondering how a cult-leader develops. Did the “tell me what you think of Jesus” question morph into galvanizing and polarizing strategies? In other words, do you believe in Jesus the way I do? If so, then you’re cool - you belong in my group. If not - you could be possessed -cuz there’s no way you can believe in the divinity of Christ and NOT be possessed.
If you look at what different people said of Jesus in the Gospels and epistles you’ll find a wide variety of impressions.
It’s cool to ask questions like “what do you think of Jesus?”. But it should be an open question. I think it’s manipulative and a sucker punch if someone is setting me up to condemn me for thinking of Jesus in a different way than they do.
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fredgrant
Yep seems like you have to look at what somebody does to know whether they believe what they're saying... if there was ever a poster boy for galvanizing and polarizing strategies Jesus would qualify. It's interesting in light of that the records are ambiguous enough that people can wonder whether or not he was a trinitarian.
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T-Bone
Ha! You got me thinking !
it would have been nice if Jesus have a little more info about himself
Jesus international man of mystery
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Mike
At the time the class was filmed, 1967 and the Summer of Love were happening. For years it had been building, but new religions were sprouting all over in the baby-boom population. MANY of them were professing allegiance to Jesus, as well as to Buddha, Confucius, you name it, both ancient and current.
It was very common back then for intellectuals to say Jesus was cool, but it was in a Biblically degraded sense.
So that part of the class spoke loudly to this old hippie.
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fredgrant
It started out with broad, grand statements like the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God, but quickly devolved into a spiritual bonsai tree, with nutrition stunted, light limited, and limbs pruned and tied off into grotesque caricature of their natural development. The result bore little resemblence to the gospel the Lord had brought, lived, and died for. It is no wonder that so many people, gazing back at a life they were so invested in, are not merely puzzled, but horrified, at the ways in which they were misled.
Fortunately, God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will, so we can be assured that the wrongs will be righted and the tears wiped away.
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Mike
Amen!
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OldSkool
Right here. Great assessment ..Mike...this is the fruit of wierwillian...pflap...etc......false doctrine.
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T-Bone
Hi Rocky,
It’s taken me awhile to process all this. Please accept my sincere apology.
I had an epiphany recently – and shared about it on another thread – here - …I often forget I’m a recovering a$$-hole and sometimes I fall off the wagon when I allow certain buttons to get pushed. I appreciate the clarity, thoughtfulness, new ideas, and friendly boldness you bring to Grease Spot. My new strategy is to ignore the temptation.
Sometimes after a fight – when we’ve declared a cease fire – my wife and I will exchange these words of elegant tolerance “thanks for putting up with me”. That’s my message to you and other Grease Spotters.
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Rocky
Not that I needed or expected an apology of any kind from you T-Bone, but I do appreciate your capacity to reflect and re-evaluate.
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Rocky
I very much appreciate Fred's insight as quoted.
The second paragraph I quoted above is very meaningful to me and has been for years. The way I look at it is such that we are the sum total of our experience and learning. Whether we remain victims of Wierwille's con game or not is within our power to decide. At least a few times, I have spelled out some of the things Vic and Loy influenced me to incorporate in my life and how those things have caused me pain in relationships for a long time. In some cases, the pain is ongoing.
Yet, I wouldn't be who I am or know what I now know or be able to do or write what I do without having endured crucibles that forced me to face up to my faults and mistakes.
I am content in my own skin and very thankful for being a survivor. Nevertheless, I expect to continue to confront, one way or another, BS like Mike's and cult-like nonsense I encounter in civic life.
Btw, whether I agree with your values, Dear Reader, or not, I encourage you to exercise your citizenship and vote in the upcoming election. Thanks to early voting, I already have done so.
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Twinky
Love this!! The Way tree - a bonsai. ROFL
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T-Bone
I was reading this account in Luke where Jesus said Satan has desired to sift Peter like wheat…and this thread and a few comparisons between a cult-leader and Jesus Christ came to mind…such as wierwille’s fondness for fear mongering over the devil to intimidate TWI-followers into cowering behind his hollow leadership and toeing the line or else it’s curtains for you…
I also thought of what little confidence wierwille showed in the abilities of others as he usually tried to micromanage everyone…The most contrasting thing starts in the 24th verse of Luke 22…think about all the times wierwille would go on and on about the greatest leader should be the greatest servant – but most of what he did was sit back on his duff and demand people treat him like visiting royalty.
As for the rest of us - in TWI there’s usually never a dispute over who is the greatest because there’s a clearly defined hierarchy – one moves up in status and authority as you go from PFAL to other classes to the Advanced Class, or other acceptable routes like WOW to way corps…anyway here’s Luke 22:
A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table?
But I am among you as one who serves. You are those who have stood by me in my trials. And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”
34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.” Luke 22: 24 – 34
One of my study Bibles suggested this dispute may have prompted the episode where Christ washed their feet John 13 . That has a lot more impact than wierwille’s impotent armchair quarterbacking.
For Jesus to single out Simon this may be significant for a couple of reasons. Jesus Christ Himself had given the new name of Peter to Simon. Was Peter one of the more vocal disciples in this dispute? Was Peter reverting back to his old ways before he met Jesus?
There’s lots of mentoring going on in this passage – and Jesus doesn’t sugarcoat the challenges but He’s basically saying that trials have a refining process on believers, and He assures Peter He is praying for him to hang in there – even though he’s going to experience failures his faith will never be squashed. Jesus Christ never gave up on his disciples...I remember in the way corps wierwille would go on and on about if you ever trip out or cop out of the ministry you're doomed to oblivion - whatever that means. I remember sometimes when he'd get on a rant about that, I'd have some morbid death wish or something - like I hope someone shoots me dead or I have a heart attack and die before I trip out or cop out...it's weird how all-consuming cult-indoctrination can become.
Even when Peter failed miserably – denying his Lord. Jesus is a big fan of the repentance process. Jesus believed in the ability of people to bounce back and in turn strengthen others ( verse 32 )…and check out John 21: 18, 19 Jesus foretells that Peter will remain committed unto death to the glory of God.
Considering Jesus Christ’s transcendence and immanence – I can’t imagine Him doing any less for us.
Edited by T-BoneI have sifted this post like word salad...what?!?! does anyone read this stuff down here?
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oldiesman
This caught my attention. Sort of reminded me of the Book of Job when Satan asked God for permission to hurt Job. What's your take T-Bone?
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T-Bone
Yeah this account reminded me of that “divine council “ scene in Job too …you might be interested in my post on another thread. Here where I share some stuff from a cultural background study Bible
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fredgrant
Indeed, and us is..................
Colossians 1:20 KJV
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
its where no child left behind must have come from
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fredgrant
If you haven't seen this, it is pretty interesting and informative, although maybe a little dramatic..
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T-Bone
Cool video, FredGrant ! Thanks for posting.
Not to get into this stuff here…but there’s a lot to process in that video…near the end he says something like - as a member of the kingdom of God, this adversary has no claim on you at all…the growth of the kingdom of God means the diminishing of the adversary’s domain.
Some of his ideas are similar to things I’ve read by John Walton – and I went to Heiser’s website and noticed he recommends some of Walton’s books…I like Heiser’s delivery and his thoughtful approach – I’ll have to watch that video a few more times…interesting stuff…I like all the dramatic stuff ! thanks again for posting!
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Nathan_Jr
I have wondered for a while if someone would ever reference Michael Heiser. Believe it or not, this is one of his concise lectures. He really loves to hear himself talk, but he knows a lot of Hebrew and really geeks out on the spirit world -- that's his shtick.
I believe if victor had believed big enough to live long enough, he would have scrapped his entire Advanced Class and handed it over to Heiser to teach. Mainly because accurate biblical research is better than stupidity.
At the 23:30 mark he "handles" leviathan more convincingly than victor. Not once does he mention waterhead babies, because, well, that would be just stupid.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloved hands
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oldiesman
Thank you for that link. I'll go back and read the entire thread on 'idiom of permission'. Worth noting that when TWI taught "God is light and in him is no darkness at all" I took that to mean all (without exception) whatever it is, comes from Satan and never God, without considering the possibility that sometimes evil comes from God for His purposes. Example: A friend recently said to me that the sickness he had came from God, and I told him 'no, Jesus is the Healer, sickness does not come from him.' But now I'm thinking there may be a deeper truth working that I need to know about!
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waysider
My granddaughter, Clara Belle (that's short for Helen.), said, "Geeze, Grampaw, don't you guys know nothin'? Sickness comes from cooties."
That girl has a mind of her own.
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T-Bone
Cool.
You might find FredGrant’s YouTube on Demons (in above post) helpful too. And note my comments to him after I watched the video. This stuff is all new to me too - and it’s nice to find some sources that are grounded in the actual culture and theological thought process of the people in the Bible.
I’m going to watch that video a few more times - and check out some other videos he has.
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T-Bone
It’s funny how some things stay with you. I asked my wife if she wanted to try my latest Irish Coffee concoction so I said “want a sip if you’re not afraid of my cooties.”
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Nathan_Jr
You might like this one, T-Bone.
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