Yet, one thing he wasn't when he was in human form on earth is Caucasian. That's a cool video clip, but I had cognitive dissonance when they used Jim Caviezel's image and clips, in it.
Yet, one thing he wasn't when he was in human form on earth is Caucasian. That's a cool video clip, but I had cognitive dissonance when they used Jim Caviezel's image and clips, in it.
Ha! But Jim Caviezel is not quite as white as that image of Jesus hanging on the wall of the set of PFAL.
He is not a transformer suit made to amplify your appendages. He is not a non entity. He is absent in person but not in spirit. He is right now seated at the right hand of God ever ready to make intercession for you.
What a WONDERFUL couple of analogies, figures of speech. Not a transformer.
Can and should we take LITERALLY the "fact" Jesus Christ is "right now seated at the right hand of God..."
IF it were literal, how would it be depicted in images and stories?
What the heck does it mean, in literal, factual, truth?
Or is it a story told down through the ages... to depict a certain truth?
You know, kinda like Greek, Roman, or Norse mythology? I know, that's
Im interested in hearing what youve studied. In the past few years Ive been reading a lot on the Bible's history. And it is a collection of writings that spans several thousand years by multiple authors from multiple countries. So this is me continuing to peel away my old fundie points of views. Im happy if you PM me if you feel it's out of context, start a thread in doctirnal, etc. And no, Im not trying to pick some sort of Biblical argument with you - not my style. Just continuing my quest and would love to learn some of what you have looked into. Thanks!
4 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:
The following scholars are HISTORIANS specializing in early Christianity, Second Temple Judaism, and/or the Ancient Near East. This is a small sampling.
Though they publish very serious, dense scholarly works, they also publish trade books that are accessible to non-scholars. They are all real Doctors, and they all have faith in some kind of Judeo-Christian tradition, except Ehrman, who is agnostic-atheist. I'd recommend starting with Ehrman. His writing style is extremely lucid and accessible.
Bart D. Ehrman
Elaine Pagels
James D. Tabor
Paula Fredikson
John Dominic Crossan
And if you are interested in finding meaning across other traditions and texts, like the Epic of Gilgamesh, check out Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth- Christ Jesus is included in his survey.
**Ehrman, Pagels and Tabor were conservative, fundamentalist evangelicals in their youth.
hey, OldSkool I know this is off-topic but since Nathan_Jr has some good recommendations.
And picking up on Nathan_Jrmentioning Erhman as agnostic-atheist, I wanted to add one of the things that has helped me get out of the fundamentalist mindset was listening to smart analytical people – regardless of their belief system – over Bible stuff because it gets me to look at the nuts and bolts of the Bible and even matters of faith - it's all getting down to the essentials. That’s when I say, “it is what it is” … whether it’s a contradiction in the text of the Bible, a scientific or historical error, or just something that remains a mystery - it cannot be changed and therefore I accept it…My motto after leaving TWI is “there’s a lot of $hit I don’t know and probably never will”.
...anyway...I wanted to chime in with some specific works by a few he mentioned, as well as a few others I’ve found helpful:
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/search/Bart Erhman The Great Courses website has a big selection of lectures by in-field experts – you can purchase and download a lecture or buy it on DVD. I bought several of Ehrman’s lectures ( also bought a lecture Psychology of Human Behavior by Prof. David Martin – something my wife and I are both interested in when we’re not binge watching The West Wing )
…Paul spoke and wrote Greek fluently, but with the inclusion of many secondhand semitisms. His writing style, however was the style of a speaker. He hardly ever used a period; only dashes. Sometimes his sentences would be so long, with so many parenthetical thoughts thrown in, that a reader would forget what the subject of the sentence was before reaching the verb. His writing had the rhythm of the spoken word, but he did reach heights of the almost poetic elegance in such passages as I Corinthians 13 and Rom. 8:31 – 39.
again - just for some comedic relief...it was said of wierwille "he teaches like Bullinger writes" ...after rereading this book about Paul - I realized I post like Paul wrote - "sentences would be so long, with so many parenthetical thoughts thrown in, that a reader would forget what the subject of the sentence was before reaching the verb..." well, I thought it was funny...anyway... oh Paul, I know what it's like...
This group has interesting roots back to Lonnie Frisbee!
Ive attended a number of their services in different churches in a few locations. They only do exegetical teachings not topical. And they emphasize all searching scripture. I am not a member of their church.
But on the topic of the Word searching scripture and the living Word I thought they were worth a mention.
Chockfull, T-Bone, Nathan_Jr --- Thanks for posting the links and taking the time get me in a few new directions!!! I really appreciate it! Ill take the time and check the links and see where it all goes!
Thinking about Living Word examples the last two most inspiring in person sermons I have heard were by a Catholic priest young Thai man who looked about 12 yrs old and by a gay Methodist minister close friend of ours who did the wedding for a friends daughter and son in law.
I am progressing towards free range Christian who gets around I guess. Lol.
That is wonderful !
At last! Some Godly like-mindedness emerges at GSC! :)
Wonders never cease, and Caesars never wonder.
Twinky, in recent years I read here more than I post.
This was so nice to hear that I went to YouTube to extract the cursive version, plus I did a tiny bit of formatting to make it more readable.
I did not have the time to correct it, due to this "English Class From Hell" that I got roped into.Imagine that!So many essays to write, and I’ll only get a “D” at best on them!
Ohhh!At the end the You-Tube transcriptor bot couldn’t hear the words in the music. We can hear better than the best OCR software in Earth! Imagine THAT!
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Maybe someone else can massage these cursive fragments below for us all
and make a Critical Grease Text out of it for us all to enjoy.
Let’s amplify what MANY things we agree on,
and put aside the very few things we disagree on.
the Bible says my king is the King of the Jews He's a king of Israel He's a king of righteousness He's a king of the ages He's the king of heaven He's a king of glory He's the king of kings and He's the Lord of lords that's not King I wonder do you know him Martine is a sovereign King both means of measure can define his limitless love He's enduring the strong He's entirely sincere He's eternally steadfast He's immortal He's imperious powerful He's impossible do you know him He's phenomenon the horizon He's God's Son He's a sinner Saviour He's a centerpiece of civilization He's unparallel He's unprecedented He is the lastest idea in literature He's the highest personality in philosophy He's a fundamental doctrine of theology she's only mollified to be at all sufficient Savior I wonder if you know him today He supplies train for the week He's available for attempted and the pride He sympathizes any saves He strengthens and sustained He thought and He died He healed the sick He cleanse the lepers He forgives sinners He discharges tethers He delivers the captive agent in the Siebel He blesses the young He serves the unfortunate He regards me [Music] wisdom and limitless is everlasting [Music] [Music] [Music] they comprehensible you're out of your mind in jail they couldn't stop it [Music]
Let’s amplify what MANY things we agree on,
and put aside the very few things we disagree on.
Why?
Mike, what are the MANY thingswe agree on?
And
What are the very few things we disagree on?
So…
Before I sign on to amplify what YOU thinkwe agree upon – I want to know specifics! This request of yours just doesn't seem genuine to me.
Mike, why don’t YOUstart a new thread “What are the MANY things that Grease Spotters agree on?”
I also am very suspicious of your reasons for wantingGrease Spotters to put aside the very few things we disagree on. It hits me as a gimmick so you can avoid being challenged in a discussion. So…
Mike, why don’tYOUstart a new thread “What are the very few things Grease Spotters disagree on that should put aside?”
Due to recent overt and covert maneuverings on certain threads I feel the need to make this announcement to all Grease Spotters:
My preferred style of communication in cyberspace is being upfront and direct. I’m not a big fan of cold war tactics that pussyfoot around big ideological differences.
I’m not mentioning any names here, but if the hand fits in the glove, then wear it…if it doesn’t fit - you must…uhhh…quit trying it on for sizesome Grease Spotters have used the covert route of unsolicited private messages to me to continue a conversation from a thread about points they disagreed with me on. I will just redirect them back to the thread – nice try – but no thanks. I already get enough spam in my email accounts.
As it is, I often wonder about other backchannels some folks use whether it’s conspiring with other wierwille/PFAL fans through private messaging or being in direct communication with the Mothership (I know who you are! Fox and Scully told me)
I disagree with YOUR despicable and supposedly "Biblical" definition of “free pass” – and to the contrary the Bible is very clear that God did not tolerate bad behavior. And even though David was repentant of his adultery with Bathsheba – there were still multiple consequences – one of which was the child they both had together would die.
Well, I respect your right to disagree… but HEY! Maybe it’s due to a simple miscommunication… or a deep one maybe.
Actually, I didn’t give a “Biblical” definition of “free pass.”
What it was was a “Mike” definition.
I don’t think “free pass” appears in the Bible. Maybe it does, but it’s a big book, and it takes a long time to get it all studied up and deeply. It’s a work in progress for me.
MAYBE it is the case that I did not do a good job in defining it, or didn’t explain it well enough. I will give it a try again.
First of all, what I meant by “tolerate” is embedded in “The Idiom of Permission.”
Now THAT is pretty deep, and so deep I am not yet good at describing it. I am searching for a good, short description.
God tolerates bad behavior from you and me and anyone with holy spirit in this following way:
When we sin and are out of fellowship,
but when we ADMIT, or confess, or “say the same thing,”
that what we did or think was contrary to God’s will,
He FAITHFULLY forgives and cleanses us
from all unrighteousness,
and “forgets” or makes the past to be null and void.
He then is poised to bless work with us again
as we again resume working for Him.
Remember Jesus teaching us about the prodigal son, and the loving father, and the religious, envious, non-forgiving brother?
God’s forgiveness, fast and free !!!
Oh, but MEANWHILE, the devil does NOT forgive and forget.
Notes and files and folders on our sin are compiled and processed and stored, and he is poised to drag us into self-condemnation, or a RE-temptation to do the same sin again, or disaster to distract us. He will do ANYTHING to get us off topic of serving God.
It is the devil that brings the consequences, and not God, our Father.
(prepare for some like-mindedness now)
And God, for His perfect reasons, uses the figure of permission to get our attention, because it is important that we never merely admit or confess our sin, but that we also REPENT, or change our ways. If we don’t learn how to do this, then the devil has a button or two to drag us down almost any time he wants.
It is NOT necessary to repent to receive what 1 John 1:9 promises, God faithfully forgiving and “forgetting.”
Confession of sins is like standing back up after falling down.
Repenting is like starting immediately to walk, and not falling back down immediately. Maybe repenting happens some time later, after forgiveness. This is not best, but God is THAT good! Forgiveness is paid for. Protection and blessings come after repentance, unless it is God's extra grace.
I am SO GLAD that it works this way!
I am so glad that the GSC requirement for forgiveness and cleansing (repenting) is NOT the way God forgives.
Actually, the GSC requirement is common in world religions.
I cringingly see how closely it resembles the way the RC Nuns taught me in the 1950s and early 60s, how tough it was to get God to forgive us. They even said that sometimes Mary has to calm Him or Jesus down when we sin, they get so mad at us repeat sinners after Jesus died for us. Dana Carvey’s SNL church lady epitomizes this faulty attitude.
Actually, the GSC requirement for forgiveness bigger than repenting. It’s repenting IN PUBLIC for all to see, and having it documented, video recorded, notarized, and copyrighted. The convent welcomes and awaits some posters here, to help strengthen their church-lady like stand.
Sheesh!
I’m going to do a “Surety Rating” for a few items:
I know David sinned because it is (specifically) written in God’s Word.
I know VPW sinned because it is (generally) written in God’s Word.
I know David repented because it is written in God’s Word.
I have no idea if and when or how many times VPW repented, and anyone here who says they do know, or know to the contrary, God’s Word calls a liar. ONLY God knows a man’s heart.
Aren’t you glad? I am. All of us have really stinky old-man natures, and I am glad that only an “educated guess” can be made when we try to do heart judgement liked that.
It is always important to accurately rate our surety for each and every matter we need to juggle in life. We sometimes NEED to make as educated a guess on a person’s heart when we are deciding how much time to spend with them and work with them. But we also need to keep in mind that it’s only a guess, and only God knows who has repented, and when.
Suppose VPW did do a public, notarized repenting with tears and color video? Would that be a guarantee of a genuine repentance? No !
No one here knows anything for sure about repentance in another man’s heart and life but God.
*/*/*/*
Now, let’s go back to being like-minded and the idiom of permission.
This next text below is from the MVB. That is my Cambridge Wide-Margin with extensive Bic 4-color pen notes, and then DIGITIZED and neatened it up.
I call it the MVB for the Mike Version of the Bible. I started with the NIV, brought in some KJV where the language is more fun, the Corps Literals for some difficult points, the collaterals, and some other sources I have learned to trust pretty well.
In the MVB I did not put any footnotes or source citations, because I am making it (a work in progress) to read easily and fluidly. No scholarly clutter to bother my eyes with distractions. I hate citations like that. It is for my own personal use, not for publication…. Except in rare teaching situations, like this.
Ohhh, BTW, feel free to make your own digitized and neatened up your Cambridge Wide-Margin.... unless your religion forbids it. You can even call it your MVB to stand for “My Version of the Bible.” Have fun with it. It is fun to play (respectfully, of course) with God’s Word just like it is to play with language in SIT.
Remember, all versions are de-void of authority, and we still are responsible to rightly-divide it.
Now, back again to the idiom of permission and like-mindedness.
1 Thess 4:3-7
It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you His Holy Spirit.
Yes, repenting is important.
Yes, there are consequences.
But they really come from the devil,
because God is light and in Him
is no darkness, no none at all.
When I was first taught this idiom, I started seeing it in lots of places, like the bad guy in Psalms who digs a pit to trap and rob someone, but then falls in the pit himself.
One of the most wonderful passages that teaches this is 1 Cor Chapter 3, but the translators were so freaked out by God’s graciousness, that they BENT the translation towards God being a harsh punisher. No one taught them the idiom of permission, I guess.
We should talk more about this chapter. Can any of the encyclopedic “gotcha-Mike” watchers” here tell me if I posted my MVB for that chapter in another thread a few months ago?. I know I’ve texted it privately so a few of friends, but I can’t remember if I posted it here.
If anyone has some good presentation up their sleeve for idiom of permission, or a well-cited source explaining it, I’d love to see it.
Due to recent overt and covert maneuverings on certain threads I feel the need to make this announcement to all Grease Spotters:
My preferred style of communication in cyberspace is being upfront and direct. I’m not a big fan of cold war tactics that pussyfoot around big ideological differences.
I’m not mentioning any names here, but if the hand fits in the glove, then wear it…if it doesn’t fit - you must…uhhh…quit trying it on for sizesome Grease Spotters have used the covert route of unsolicited private messages to me to continue a conversation from a thread about points they disagreed with me on. I will just redirect them back to the thread – nice try – but no thanks. I already get enough spam in my email accounts.
As it is, I often wonder about other backchannels some folks use whether it’s conspiring with other wierwille/PFAL fans through private messaging or being in direct communication with the Mothership (I know who you are! Fox and Scully told me)
That’s all for now
I like private communications.
I would never label them "covert" unless I was trying to be in charge of everything.
Every now and then I get an unsolicited private letter from a lurker and even an active poster or two. I have a couple of running private conversations running right now. Before posting this, I responded to one, just minutes ago.
OF COURSE, if I send an unsolicited letter to someone here, and they express any displeasure with such a communication, THEN i would be obligated to immediately back off.
Well, I respect your right to disagree… but HEY! Maybe it’s due to a simple miscommunication… or a deep one maybe.
Actually, I didn’t give a “Biblical” definition of “free pass.”
What it was was a “Mike” definition.
I don’t think “free pass” appears in the Bible. Maybe it does, but it’s a big book, and it takes a long time to get it all studied up and deeply. It’s a work in progress for me.
MAYBE it is the case that I did not do a good job in defining it, or didn’t explain it well enough. I will give it a try again.
First of all, what I meant by “tolerate” is embedded in “The Idiom of Permission.”
Now THAT is pretty deep, and so deep I am not yet good at describing it. I am searching for a good, short description.
God tolerates bad behavior from you and me and anyone with holy spirit in this following way:
When we sin and are out of fellowship,
but when we ADMIT, or confess, or “say the same thing,”
that what we did or think was contrary to God’s will,
He FAITHFULLY forgives and cleanses us
from all unrighteousness,
and “forgets” or makes the past to be null and void.
He then is poised to bless work with us again
as we again resume working for Him.
Remember Jesus teaching us about the prodigal son, and the loving father, and the religious, envious, non-forgiving brother?
God’s forgiveness, fast and free !!!
Oh, but MEANWHILE, the devil does NOT forgive and forget.
Notes and files and folders on our sin are compiled and processed and stored, and he is poised to drag us into self-condemnation, or a RE-temptation to do the same sin again, or disaster to distract us. He will do ANYTHING to get us off topic of serving God.
It is the devil that brings the consequences, and not God, our Father.
(prepare for some like-mindedness now)
And God, for His perfect reasons, uses the figure of permission to get our attention, because it is important that we never merely admit or confess our sin, but that we also REPENT, or change our ways. If we don’t learn how to do this, then the devil has a button or two to drag us down almost any time he wants.
It is NOT necessary to repent to receive what 1 John 1:9 promises, God faithfully forgiving and “forgetting.”
Confession of sins is like standing back up after falling down.
Repenting is like starting immediately to walk, and not falling back down immediately. Maybe repenting happens some time later, after forgiveness. This is not best, but God is THAT good! Forgiveness is paid for. Protection and blessings come after repentance, unless it is God's extra grace.
I am SO GLAD that it works this way!
I am so glad that the GSC requirement for forgiveness and cleansing (repenting) is NOT the way God forgives.
Actually, the GSC requirement is common in world religions.
I cringingly see how closely it resembles the way the RC Nuns taught me in the 1950s and early 60s, how tough it was to get God to forgive us. They even said that sometimes Mary has to calm Him or Jesus down when we sin, they get so mad at us repeat sinners after Jesus died for us. Dana Carvey’s SNL church lady epitomizes this faulty attitude.
Actually, the GSC requirement for forgiveness bigger than repenting. It’s repenting IN PUBLIC for all to see, and having it documented, video recorded, notarized, and copyrighted. The convent welcomes and awaits some posters here, to help strengthen their church-lady like stand.
Sheesh!
I’m going to do a “Surety Rating” for a few items:
I know David sinned because it is (specifically) written in God’s Word.
I know VPW sinned because it is (generally) written in God’s Word.
I know David repented because it is written in God’s Word.
I have no idea if and when or how many times VPW repented, and anyone here who says they do know, or know to the contrary, God’s Word calls a liar. ONLY God knows a man’s heart.
Aren’t you glad? I am. All of us have really stinky old-man natures, and I am glad that only an “educated guess” can be made when we try to do heart judgement liked that.
It is always important to accurately rate our surety for each and every matter we need to juggle in life. We sometimes NEED to make as educated a guess on a person’s heart when we are deciding how much time to spend with them and work with them. But we also need to keep in mind that it’s only a guess, and only God knows who has repented, and when.
Suppose VPW did do a public, notarized repenting with tears and color video? Would that be a guarantee of a genuine repentance? No !
No one here knows anything for sure about repentance in another man’s heart and life but God.
*/*/*/*
Now, let’s go back to being like-minded and the idiom of permission.
This next text below is from the MVB. That is my Cambridge Wide-Margin with extensive Bic 4-color pen notes, and then DIGITIZED and neatened it up.
I call it the MVB for the Mike Version of the Bible. I started with the NIV, brought in some KJV where the language is more fun, the Corps Literals for some difficult points, the collaterals, and some other sources I have learned to trust pretty well.
In the MVB I did not put any footnotes or source citations, because I am making it (a work in progress) to read easily and fluidly. No scholarly clutter to bother my eyes with distractions. I hate citations like that. It is for my own personal use, not for publication…. Except in rare teaching situations, like this.
Ohhh, BTW, feel free to make your own digitized and neatened up your Cambridge Wide-Margin.... unless your religion forbids it. You can even call it your MVB to stand for “My Version of the Bible.” Have fun with it. It is fun to play (respectfully, of course) with God’s Word just like it is to play with language in SIT.
Remember, all versions are de-void of authority, and we still are responsible to rightly-divide it.
Now, back again to the idiom of permission and like-mindedness.
1 Thess 4:3-7
It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you His Holy Spirit.
Yes, repenting is important.
Yes, there are consequences.
But they really come from the devil,
because God is light and in Him
is no darkness, no none at all.
When I was first taught this idiom, I started seeing it in lots of places, like the bad guy in Psalms who digs a pit to trap and rob someone, but then falls in the pit himself.
One of the most wonderful passages that teaches this is 1 Cor Chapter 3, but the translators were so freaked out by God’s graciousness, that they BENT the translation towards God being a harsh punisher. No one taught them the idiom of permission, I guess.
We should talk more about this chapter. Can any of the encyclopedic “gotcha-Mike” watchers” here tell me if I posted my MVB for that chapter in another thread a few months ago?. I know I’ve texted it privately so a few of friends, but I can’t remember if I posted it here.
If anyone has some good presentation up their sleeve for idiom of permission, or a well-cited source explaining it, I’d love to see it.
Mike said: I don’t think “free pass” appears in the Bible. Maybe it does, but it’s a big book, and it takes a long time to get it all studied up and deeply.It’s a work in progress for me.
T-Bone’s response: You’re right - “free pass” doesn’t appear in the Bible. But the conceptdoes! That’s why I gave the definition in my post Free pass = toleration of bad behavior or poor performance. Perhaps this will become clearer to you when I address your next statements.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said: MAYBE it is the case that I did not do a good job in defining it, or didn’t explain it well enough.I will give it a try again. First of all, what I meant by “tolerate” is embedded in “The Idiom of Permission.” Now THAT is pretty deep, and so deep I am not yet good at describing it.I am searching for a good, short description.
T-Bone’s response: So in other words God permits bad behavior or poor performance – is that what you mean?Sounds like you’re describing some hypocritical Pharisee talking to himself in the mirror.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said: God tolerates bad behavior from you and me and anyone with holy spirit in this following way. When we sin and are out of fellowship, but when we ADMIT, or confess, or “say the same thing,” that what we did or think was contrary to God’s will, He FAITHFULLY forgives and cleanses us from all unrighteousness, and “forgets” or makes the past to be null and void. He then is poised to bless work with us again as we again resume working for Him.
T-Bone’s response: Hold on – you lost me at the beginning when you said God tolerates bad behavior from you and me and anyone with holy spirit in this following way …it seems to me you like to rewrite the moral demands of the Bible - to minimize them – and expect God to accept your rewrite…that’s not how I understand Ephesians 4:
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Ephesians 4:25-31
I don’t understand how someone can get "God tolerates bad behavior from you and me and anyone with holy spirit" out of Ephesians 4 – when it’s plain as day that it’s saying God does NOT tolerate bad behavior so QUIT DOING IT – because it grieves…hurts…saddens…offends the Holy Spirit of God!
I don’t see the need to address the rest of these morally degenerative musings.
Have a nice day Mike
Edited by T-Bone good editors do NOT tolerate bad typos...no wait - that implies there's good typos.
it is important that we never merely admit or confess our sin, but that we also REPENT, or change our ways.
Glad you get this, Mike. Because, although you might think that VPW might have confessed his sins, he never changed his ways but continued raping women for years. As also did his protege, LCM.
Prov 20:11 - Even a child is known by his doings,whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.
(How much more a supposed minister of religion??????? )
he never changed his ways but continued raping women for years. As also did his protege, LCM
Thinking on this, and on a recent thread I started about Eli not reproving and stopping his sons from sleeping with the women at the entrance to the temple, I find myself thinking that VPW not only did not reprove LCM in his wandering habits - he actively encouraged it. Might expand that thought a bit more on the other thread, as this doesn't exactly fit with this thread.
I have no idea if and when or how many times VPW repented, and anyone here who says they do know, or know to the contrary, God’s Word calls a liar. ONLY God knows a man’s heart.
Yes, Victor Wierwille was not perfect regarding faith in God. The only perfect man in his earthly life was and is Jesus Christ. Near the end of Wierwille’s life, I believe he saw that more fully with him showing more humility by passing on authority to people in the TWI ministry which he started. In the late 1970s and 1980s, I saw the problem with the hierarchical structure of TWI with the lordship of people, especially the leader of TWI taking the place of Jesus Christ as head of the body or the TWI organization. I more clearly saw and heard that in the late 1970s when I listened to a tape of a Wierwille teaching when he agreed with the Roman Catholic church that regarding church leadership in this church that the Pope was and is the Vicar of Christ. According to the Catholic web site, the Vicar of Christ is the following: “A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honor and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ”. When Wierwille was the main leader of TWI, he thought of this in a similar way as the primary leader of TWI and the church of Christ.
The only time I met him and talked directly with Wierwille was in the 1980s at a TWI event in a southern state, perhaps North Carolina, or Tennessee. When he was with his best friend, I walked up to him and told him that he looked familiar, but I can’t remember your name, but it sounds something like “Wear Something”. Then he answered by saying, “Werewolf”. In recently looking up the word “werewolf” on the internet, this has the meaning of a “mythological animal” or “a human with the ability to shapeshift into a wolf”. That showed he had more humility towards the end of his life with his death less than 2 years later. Then I answered him with an apology for not calling him “Werewolf”, but calling him something else. Then Victor Wierwille, his best male friend and I all laughed. This clearly shows at least to me his increased humility at the end of his life with Victor Wierwille not elevating himself up over others in the ministry organization, which he started.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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Twinky
Another for Mike:
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Twinky
Note the chorus for the above is NOT:
Turn your eyes upon Wierwille
Look full at his PFAL
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of its gloating and lies
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Rocky
Yet, one thing he wasn't when he was in human form on earth is Caucasian. That's a cool video clip, but I had cognitive dissonance when they used Jim Caviezel's image and clips, in it.
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Nathan_Jr
Ha! But Jim Caviezel is not quite as white as that image of Jesus hanging on the wall of the set of PFAL.
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Rocky
What a WONDERFUL couple of analogies, figures of speech. Not a transformer.
Can and should we take LITERALLY the "fact" Jesus Christ is "right now seated at the right hand of God..."
IF it were literal, how would it be depicted in images and stories?
What the heck does it mean, in literal, factual, truth?
Or is it a story told down through the ages... to depict a certain truth?
You know, kinda like Greek, Roman, or Norse mythology? I know, that's
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T-Bone
hey, OldSkool I know this is off-topic but since Nathan_Jr has some good recommendations.
And picking up on Nathan_Jr mentioning Erhman as agnostic-atheist, I wanted to add one of the things that has helped me get out of the fundamentalist mindset was listening to smart analytical people – regardless of their belief system – over Bible stuff because it gets me to look at the nuts and bolts of the Bible and even matters of faith - it's all getting down to the essentials. That’s when I say, “it is what it is” … whether it’s a contradiction in the text of the Bible, a scientific or historical error, or just something that remains a mystery - it cannot be changed and therefore I accept it…My motto after leaving TWI is “there’s a lot of $hit I don’t know and probably never will”.
...anyway...I wanted to chime in with some specific works by a few he mentioned, as well as a few others I’ve found helpful:
https://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Bart Ehrman
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195141830
The Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew by Bart Ehrman
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions-ebook/dp/B001TKD4XA/
Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them) by Bart Ehrman
~ ~ ~ ~
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/search/Bart Erhman
)
The Great Courses website has a big selection of lectures by in-field experts – you can purchase and download a lecture or buy it on DVD. I bought several of Ehrman’s lectures ( also bought a lecture Psychology of Human Behavior by Prof. David Martin – something my wife and I are both interested in when we’re not binge watching The West Wing
~ ~ ~ ~
https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Bible-Introduction-Skeptics-Religious/dp/0807010537
Understanding the Bible: An Introduction for Skeptics, Seekers, and Religious Liberals by John Buehrens
https://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-Bible-Rediscovering-Scripture/dp/0062234986
Making Sense of the Bible: Rediscovering the Power of Scripture Today by Adam Hamilton ...Engine turned me on to this one mentioning it on this thread here - it's a great read!
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Tells-Me-Defending-Scripture/dp/0062272039
The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It by Peter Enns
https://www.amazon.com/How-Bible-Actually-Works-Answers_and/dp/0062686755
How the Bible Actually Works: In Which I Explain How An Ancient, Ambiguous, and Diverse Book Leads Us to Wisdom Rather Than Answers―and Why That's Great News by Peter Enns
https://www.amazon.com/Misreading-Scripture-Western-Eyes-Understand/dp/0830837825
Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes: Removing Cultural Blinders to Better Understand the Bible by E. Randolph Richards and Brandon J. O’Brien
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Biography-Karen-Armstrong/dp/1843543966
The Bible: The Biography by Karen Armstrong
https://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Karen-Armstrong-ebook/dp/B004OEIDCK
In the Beginning: A New Interpretation of Genesis by Karen Armstrong
https://www.amazon.com/Adam-Eve-Serpent-Politics-Christianity-ebook/dp/B005MHHRUC/
Adam, Eve, and the Serpent: Sex and Politics in Early Christianity by Elaine Pagels
https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Satan-Christians-Demonized-Heretics-ebook/dp/B005O1BLU8/
The Origin of Satan: How Christians Demonized Jews, Pagans, and Heretics by Elaine Pagels
https://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-Modern-Library-Nonfiction-ebook/dp/B000RH0DSU/
Edited by T-BoneThe Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels
How I Edited This Post by Thelonious Hyphen Bone
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T-Bone
Edited by T-Boneinterpolations are us
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chockfull
Hey thx Nathan and TBone for the linked references. That’s awesome. I’m going to do some reading.
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chockfull
You know in covering this topic I would be remiss not to mention Calvary Chapel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary_Chapel_Association
This group has interesting roots back to Lonnie Frisbee!
Ive attended a number of their services in different churches in a few locations. They only do exegetical teachings not topical. And they emphasize all searching scripture. I am not a member of their church.
But on the topic of the Word searching scripture and the living Word I thought they were worth a mention.
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OldSkool
Chockfull, T-Bone, Nathan_Jr --- Thanks for posting the links and taking the time get me in a few new directions!!! I really appreciate it! Ill take the time and check the links and see where it all goes!
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chockfull
Thinking about Living Word examples the last two most inspiring in person sermons I have heard were by a Catholic priest young Thai man who looked about 12 yrs old and by a gay Methodist minister close friend of ours who did the wedding for a friends daughter and son in law.
I am progressing towards free range Christian who gets around I guess. Lol.
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Mike
That is wonderful !
At last! Some Godly like-mindedness emerges at GSC! :)
Wonders never cease, and Caesars never wonder.
Twinky, in recent years I read here more than I post.
This was so nice to hear that I went to YouTube to extract the cursive version, plus I did a tiny bit of formatting to make it more readable.
I did not have the time to correct it, due to this "English Class From Hell" that I got roped into. Imagine that! So many essays to write, and I’ll only get a “D” at best on them!
Ohhh! At the end the You-Tube transcriptor bot couldn’t hear the words in the music. We can hear better than the best OCR software in Earth! Imagine THAT!
*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Maybe someone else can massage these cursive fragments below for us all
and make a Critical Grease Text out of it for us all to enjoy.
Let’s amplify what MANY things we agree on,
and put aside the very few things we disagree on.
the Bible says my king is the King of the Jews He's a king of Israel He's a king of righteousness He's a king of the ages He's the king of heaven He's a king of glory He's the king of kings and He's the Lord of lords that's not King I wonder do you know him Martine is a sovereign King both means of measure can define his limitless love He's enduring the strong He's entirely sincere He's eternally steadfast He's immortal He's imperious powerful He's impossible do you know him He's phenomenon the horizon He's God's Son He's a sinner Saviour He's a centerpiece of civilization He's unparallel He's unprecedented He is the lastest idea in literature He's the highest personality in philosophy He's a fundamental doctrine of theology she's only mollified to be at all sufficient Savior I wonder if you know him today He supplies train for the week He's available for attempted and the pride He sympathizes any saves He strengthens and sustained He thought and He died He healed the sick He cleanse the lepers He forgives sinners He discharges tethers He delivers the captive agent in the Siebel He blesses the young He serves the unfortunate He regards me [Music] wisdom and limitless is everlasting [Music] [Music] [Music] they comprehensible you're out of your mind in jail they couldn't stop it [Music]
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OldSkool
Mike. Because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean it's ungodly.
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Mike
RIGHT you are, sir!
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T-Bone
Why?
Mike, what are the MANY things we agree on?
And
What are the very few things we disagree on?
So…
Before I sign on to amplify what YOU think we agree upon – I want to know specifics! This request of yours just doesn't seem genuine to me.
Mike, why don’t YOU start a new thread “What are the MANY things that Grease Spotters agree on?”
I also am very suspicious of your reasons for wanting Grease Spotters to put aside the very few things we disagree on. It hits me as a gimmick so you can avoid being challenged in a discussion. So…
Mike, why don’t YOU start a new thread “What are the very few things Grease Spotters disagree on that should put aside?”
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T-Bone
Due to recent overt and covert maneuverings on certain threads I feel the need to make this announcement to all Grease Spotters:
My preferred style of communication in cyberspace is being upfront and direct. I’m not a big fan of cold war tactics that pussyfoot around big ideological differences.
I’m not mentioning any names here, but if the hand fits in the glove, then wear it…if it doesn’t fit - you must…uhhh…quit trying it on for size
some Grease Spotters have used the covert route of unsolicited private messages to me to continue a conversation from a thread about points they disagreed with me on. I will just redirect them back to the thread – nice try – but no thanks. I already get enough spam in my email accounts.
As it is, I often wonder about other backchannels some folks use whether it’s conspiring with other wierwille/PFAL fans through private messaging or being in direct communication with the Mothership (I know who you are! Fox and Scully told me)
That’s all for now
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Mike
Well, I respect your right to disagree… but HEY! Maybe it’s due to a simple miscommunication… or a deep one maybe.
Actually, I didn’t give a “Biblical” definition of “free pass.”
What it was was a “Mike” definition.
I don’t think “free pass” appears in the Bible. Maybe it does, but it’s a big book, and it takes a long time to get it all studied up and deeply. It’s a work in progress for me.
MAYBE it is the case that I did not do a good job in defining it, or didn’t explain it well enough. I will give it a try again.
First of all, what I meant by “tolerate” is embedded in “The Idiom of Permission.”
Now THAT is pretty deep, and so deep I am not yet good at describing it. I am searching for a good, short description.
God tolerates bad behavior from you and me and anyone with holy spirit in this following way:
When we sin and are out of fellowship,
but when we ADMIT, or confess, or “say the same thing,”
that what we did or think was contrary to God’s will,
He FAITHFULLY forgives and cleanses us
from all unrighteousness,
and “forgets” or makes the past to be null and void.
He then is poised to bless work with us again
as we again resume working for Him.
Remember Jesus teaching us about the prodigal son, and the loving father, and the religious, envious, non-forgiving brother?
God’s forgiveness, fast and free !!!
Oh, but MEANWHILE, the devil does NOT forgive and forget.
Notes and files and folders on our sin are compiled and processed and stored, and he is poised to drag us into self-condemnation, or a RE-temptation to do the same sin again, or disaster to distract us. He will do ANYTHING to get us off topic of serving God.
It is the devil that brings the consequences, and not God, our Father.
(prepare for some like-mindedness now)
And God, for His perfect reasons, uses the figure of permission to get our attention, because it is important that we never merely admit or confess our sin, but that we also REPENT, or change our ways. If we don’t learn how to do this, then the devil has a button or two to drag us down almost any time he wants.
It is NOT necessary to repent to receive what 1 John 1:9 promises, God faithfully forgiving and “forgetting.”
Confession of sins is like standing back up after falling down.
Repenting is like starting immediately to walk, and not falling back down immediately. Maybe repenting happens some time later, after forgiveness. This is not best, but God is THAT good! Forgiveness is paid for. Protection and blessings come after repentance, unless it is God's extra grace.
I am SO GLAD that it works this way!
I am so glad that the GSC requirement for forgiveness and cleansing (repenting) is NOT the way God forgives.
Actually, the GSC requirement is common in world religions.
I cringingly see how closely it resembles the way the RC Nuns taught me in the 1950s and early 60s, how tough it was to get God to forgive us. They even said that sometimes Mary has to calm Him or Jesus down when we sin, they get so mad at us repeat sinners after Jesus died for us. Dana Carvey’s SNL church lady epitomizes this faulty attitude.
Actually, the GSC requirement for forgiveness bigger than repenting. It’s repenting IN PUBLIC for all to see, and having it documented, video recorded, notarized, and copyrighted. The convent welcomes and awaits some posters here, to help strengthen their church-lady like stand.
Sheesh!
I’m going to do a “Surety Rating” for a few items:
I know David sinned because it is (specifically) written in God’s Word.
I know VPW sinned because it is (generally) written in God’s Word.
I know David repented because it is written in God’s Word.
I have no idea if and when or how many times VPW repented, and anyone here who says they do know, or know to the contrary, God’s Word calls a liar. ONLY God knows a man’s heart.
Aren’t you glad? I am. All of us have really stinky old-man natures, and I am glad that only an “educated guess” can be made when we try to do heart judgement liked that.
It is always important to accurately rate our surety for each and every matter we need to juggle in life. We sometimes NEED to make as educated a guess on a person’s heart when we are deciding how much time to spend with them and work with them. But we also need to keep in mind that it’s only a guess, and only God knows who has repented, and when.
Suppose VPW did do a public, notarized repenting with tears and color video? Would that be a guarantee of a genuine repentance? No !
No one here knows anything for sure about repentance in another man’s heart and life but God.
*/*/*/*
Now, let’s go back to being like-minded and the idiom of permission.
This next text below is from the MVB. That is my Cambridge Wide-Margin with extensive Bic 4-color pen notes, and then DIGITIZED and neatened it up.
I call it the MVB for the Mike Version of the Bible. I started with the NIV, brought in some KJV where the language is more fun, the Corps Literals for some difficult points, the collaterals, and some other sources I have learned to trust pretty well.
In the MVB I did not put any footnotes or source citations, because I am making it (a work in progress) to read easily and fluidly. No scholarly clutter to bother my eyes with distractions. I hate citations like that. It is for my own personal use, not for publication…. Except in rare teaching situations, like this.
Ohhh, BTW, feel free to make your own digitized and neatened up your Cambridge Wide-Margin.... unless your religion forbids it. You can even call it your MVB to stand for “My Version of the Bible.” Have fun with it. It is fun to play (respectfully, of course) with God’s Word just like it is to play with language in SIT.
Remember, all versions are de-void of authority, and we still are responsible to rightly-divide it.
Now, back again to the idiom of permission and like-mindedness.
1 Thess 4:3-7
It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you His Holy Spirit.
Yes, repenting is important.
Yes, there are consequences.
But they really come from the devil,
because God is light and in Him
is no darkness, no none at all.
When I was first taught this idiom, I started seeing it in lots of places, like the bad guy in Psalms who digs a pit to trap and rob someone, but then falls in the pit himself.
One of the most wonderful passages that teaches this is 1 Cor Chapter 3, but the translators were so freaked out by God’s graciousness, that they BENT the translation towards God being a harsh punisher. No one taught them the idiom of permission, I guess.
We should talk more about this chapter. Can any of the encyclopedic “gotcha-Mike” watchers” here tell me if I posted my MVB for that chapter in another thread a few months ago?. I know I’ve texted it privately so a few of friends, but I can’t remember if I posted it here.
If anyone has some good presentation up their sleeve for idiom of permission, or a well-cited source explaining it, I’d love to see it.
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Nathan_Jr
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Mike
I like private communications.
I would never label them "covert" unless I was trying to be in charge of everything.
Every now and then I get an unsolicited private letter from a lurker and even an active poster or two. I have a couple of running private conversations running right now. Before posting this, I responded to one, just minutes ago.
OF COURSE, if I send an unsolicited letter to someone here, and they express any displeasure with such a communication, THEN i would be obligated to immediately back off.
T-Bone, your preferences are noted.
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Nathan_Jr
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T-Bone
Mike said: I don’t think “free pass” appears in the Bible. Maybe it does, but it’s a big book, and it takes a long time to get it all studied up and deeply. It’s a work in progress for me.
T-Bone’s response: You’re right - “free pass” doesn’t appear in the Bible. But the concept does! That’s why I gave the definition in my post Free pass = toleration of bad behavior or poor performance. Perhaps this will become clearer to you when I address your next statements.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said: MAYBE it is the case that I did not do a good job in defining it, or didn’t explain it well enough. I will give it a try again. First of all, what I meant by “tolerate” is embedded in “The Idiom of Permission.” Now THAT is pretty deep, and so deep I am not yet good at describing it. I am searching for a good, short description.
T-Bone’s response: So in other words God permits bad behavior or poor performance – is that what you mean? Sounds like you’re describing some hypocritical Pharisee talking to himself in the mirror.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said: God tolerates bad behavior from you and me and anyone with holy spirit in this following way. When we sin and are out of fellowship, but when we ADMIT, or confess, or “say the same thing,” that what we did or think was contrary to God’s will, He FAITHFULLY forgives and cleanses us from all unrighteousness, and “forgets” or makes the past to be null and void. He then is poised to bless work with us again as we again resume working for Him.
T-Bone’s response: Hold on – you lost me at the beginning when you said God tolerates bad behavior from you and me and anyone with holy spirit in this following way …it seems to me you like to rewrite the moral demands of the Bible - to minimize them – and expect God to accept your rewrite…that’s not how I understand Ephesians 4:
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Ephesians 4:25-31
I don’t understand how someone can get "God tolerates bad behavior from you and me and anyone with holy spirit" out of Ephesians 4 – when it’s plain as day that it’s saying God does NOT tolerate bad behavior so QUIT DOING IT – because it grieves…hurts…saddens…offends the Holy Spirit of God!
I don’t see the need to address the rest of these morally degenerative musings.
Have a nice day Mike
Edited by T-Bonegood editors do NOT tolerate bad typos...no wait - that implies there's good typos.
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Twinky
Glad you get this, Mike. Because, although you might think that VPW might have confessed his sins, he never changed his ways but continued raping women for years. As also did his protege, LCM.
Prov 20:11 - Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.
(How much more a supposed minister of religion??????? )
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Twinky
Thinking on this, and on a recent thread I started about Eli not reproving and stopping his sons from sleeping with the women at the entrance to the temple, I find myself thinking that VPW not only did not reprove LCM in his wandering habits - he actively encouraged it. Might expand that thought a bit more on the other thread, as this doesn't exactly fit with this thread.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Yes, Victor Wierwille was not perfect regarding faith in God. The only perfect man in his earthly life was and is Jesus Christ. Near the end of Wierwille’s life, I believe he saw that more fully with him showing more humility by passing on authority to people in the TWI ministry which he started. In the late 1970s and 1980s, I saw the problem with the hierarchical structure of TWI with the lordship of people, especially the leader of TWI taking the place of Jesus Christ as head of the body or the TWI organization. I more clearly saw and heard that in the late 1970s when I listened to a tape of a Wierwille teaching when he agreed with the Roman Catholic church that regarding church leadership in this church that the Pope was and is the Vicar of Christ. According to the Catholic web site, the Vicar of Christ is the following: “A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honor and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ”. When Wierwille was the main leader of TWI, he thought of this in a similar way as the primary leader of TWI and the church of Christ.
The only time I met him and talked directly with Wierwille was in the 1980s at a TWI event in a southern state, perhaps North Carolina, or Tennessee. When he was with his best friend, I walked up to him and told him that he looked familiar, but I can’t remember your name, but it sounds something like “Wear Something”. Then he answered by saying, “Werewolf”. In recently looking up the word “werewolf” on the internet, this has the meaning of a “mythological animal” or “a human with the ability to shapeshift into a wolf”. That showed he had more humility towards the end of his life with his death less than 2 years later. Then I answered him with an apology for not calling him “Werewolf”, but calling him something else. Then Victor Wierwille, his best male friend and I all laughed. This clearly shows at least to me his increased humility at the end of his life with Victor Wierwille not elevating himself up over others in the ministry organization, which he started.
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