Agreed. He appearantly didn't have much depth to his reasoning. He was smart enough to gather unto himself what was donated to help move da verd. That took some form of intelligence...pimps have some form of intellignence...
. . . you can find videos and listen to how these people reason as they speak for themselves . . . you could also have their faces peeled off and slid into toaster slots, hypothetically
What future are you talking about? Is this after Christ comes to gather the church together to meet him in the air? If so, why would Christ be disciplining them and giving them a chance to repent in the future? His invitation to sup with them and they with him is totally dependent on them hearing his voice and opening the door. Would that be something he would offer the church in Laodicea after the gathering together? I think his invitation is an incentive for them to repent before he comes to gather them.
I didn't mention the context for Rev 3:20 before because I wanted to keep the post short. But here it is now.
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.17You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.18**I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.22Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
** "I counsel you" is in the present indicative active - The fact that it is the present tense means it is happening now. The indicative is a mood of assertion or presentation of certainty (a fact). The active voice occurs when the action is being performed by the subject (who is Christ). I don't see anything futuristic about these verses.
Charity, that’s cool insight, “I counsel you" being present indicative active ! It speaks of the immanence of Christ.
Although these 7 churches were actual, historical churches in Asia Minor, they represent the types of churches that perennially exist throughout the church age. What Christ says to these churches is relevant in all times.
the verb means to “give advice” and is used elsewhere only in John 18:14, where Caiaphas “advised” the Jews that “one man should die for the people.” It deliberately understates (using language language of advice for a command) the seriousness of the situation: “Let me give you some advice, You should…”
The manager in Luke 16: 1-8used his “worldly wealth” to prepare for the future and so was “more shrewd” than “the children of light” because he used his wealth resources for the future and not just the present. So too the Laodiceans should use their “wealth” to “buy” spiritual and not just material rewards.
The key here is ἀγοράσαι παρ’ ἐμοῦ = to buy from me.
The commercial nature of the verb is perfect for this city.; they had “bought” everything from earthly merchants and so had gone to the wrong “store”. Theπαρ’ ἐμοῦ is emphatic. Christ is the only proper source of goods that will last, so they have to switch their broker from the marketplace to him…
…This builds on the banking and commerce of the city. They think their accumulated possessions have made them rich (3:17), but they are actually poverty-stricken because they have purchased the wrong things…The idea of “purified” also appears in I Pet. 1:7 (“gold, which perishes even though refined by fire”) in a context of suffering and mat recall Ps. 66:10 (“you refined us like silver”; cf. Zech. 13:9; Isa. 1:25)…If 3:19 is understood to mean God is going to send trials, it reinforces this connection between purified gold and personal suffering.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Circling back to Charity’s point – Christ’s message was / issignificant and practical to the Laodiceans and the church today! The time to RSVP is NOW - to listen to His voice and open the door.
Although these 7 churches were actual, historical churches in Asia Minor, they represent the types of churches that perennially exist throughout the church age. What Christ says to these churches is relevant in all times.
the verb means to “give advice” and is used elsewhere only in John 18:14, where Caiaphas “advised” the Jews that “one man should die for the people.” It deliberately understates (using language language of advice for a command) the seriousness of the situation: “Let me give you some advice, You should…”
The manager in Luke 16: 1-8used his “worldly wealth” to prepare for the future and so was “more shrewd” than “the children of light” because he used his wealth resources for the future and not just the present. So too the Laodiceans should use their “wealth” to “buy” spiritual and not just material rewards.
The key here is ἀγοράσαι παρ’ ἐμοῦ = to buy from me.
The commercial nature of the verb is perfect for this city.; they had “bought” everything from earthly merchants and so had gone to the wrong “store”. Theπαρ’ ἐμοῦ is emphatic. Christ is the only proper source of goods that will last, so they have to switch their broker from the marketplace to him…
…This builds on the banking and commerce of the city. They think their accumulated possessions have made them rich (3:17), but they are actually poverty-stricken because they have purchased the wrong things…The idea of “purified” also appears in I Pet. 1:7 (“gold, which perishes even though refined by fire”) in a context of suffering and mat recall Ps. 66:10 (“you refined us like silver”; cf. Zech. 13:9; Isa. 1:25)…If 3:19 is understood to mean God is going to send trials, it reinforces this connection between purified gold and personal suffering.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Circling back to Charity’s point – Christ’s message was / issignificant and practical to the Laodiceans and the church today! The time to RSVP is NOW - to listen to His voice and open the door.
You see, Mike, raf intervened because he is a moderator and he was trying to get us back on topic and unfortunately, we (myself included) have a habit of letting you comletely derail a thread when you have been proven in error.
No, no, no!
I do not do the derailing.
I post relatively smaller pieces that prove to be MOST inconvenient for your building and maintaining a fictional and distorted Pure Evil picture of VPW for your reading audience at home.
The derailing comes in by all sorts, manners, and varieties of posts by you folks that find my simple post most inconvenient. The all sorts, manners, and varieties of posts include jeering, misrepresentations, exaggerations, diagnosis if serious mental diseases, lunacy, selective omissions, and several more.
*/*/*
"You see, Mike, raf intervened because he is a moderator and he was trying to get us back on topic and unfortunately, we (myself included) have a habit of letting you comletely derail a thread when you have been proven in error."
Oh, REALLY! And who are the impartial judges of said proofs? Might it be the same crew who belched out said proofs? LoL Such unabashed pompus bull$hit !!!
The only close to impartial judge here so far was Raf, several times, and you folks were found wanting on a few points by him. I find you wanting on MANY points in your Kangaroo Proofs from your Kangaroo Courts.
If I had the time and a few others on my team we could make big trouble for your said proofs. A few weeks ago I looked at Raf's old thread on Actual Errors in PFAL and thought the first ten were doable.
But putting time into that is a luxury. I'm doing it as a mental exercise right now. I may even post some, or dredge up old challenges to said proofs. Of course they will be rejected before they are read. You folks have too much at stake to be proved wrong. You want to go down with this ship, after probably claiming the same for TWI years ago.
I post relatively smaller pieces that prove to be MOST inconvenient for your building and maintaining a fictional and distorted Pure Evil picture of VPW for your reading audience at home.
The derailing comes in by all sorts, manners, and varieties of posts by you folks that find my simple post most inconvenient. The all sorts, manners, and varieties of posts include jeering, misrepresentations, exaggerations, diagnosis if serious mental diseases, lunacy, selective omissions, and several more.
*/*/*
"You see, Mike, raf intervened because he is a moderator and he was trying to get us back on topic and unfortunately, we (myself included) have a habit of letting you comletely derail a thread when you have been proven in error."
Oh, REALLY! And who are the impartial judges of said proofs? Might it be the same crew who belched out said proofs? LoL Such unabashed pompus bull$hit !!!
The only close to impartial judge here so far was Raf, several times, and you folks were found wanting on a few points by him. I find you wanting on MANY points in your Kangaroo Proofs from your Kangaroo Courts.
If I had the time and a few others on my team we could make big trouble for your said proofs. A few weeks ago I looked at Raf's old thread on Actual Errors in PFAL and thought the first ten were doable.
But putting time into that is a luxury. I'm doing it as a mental exercise right now. I may even post some, or dredge up old challenges to said proofs. Of course they will be rejected before they are read. You folks have too much at stake to be proved wrong. You want to go down with this ship, after probably claiming the same for TWI years ago.
I wish you would understand how disappointing and frustrating it is to someone who does try to follow your train of thought and wants some clarification only to be condemned for paying attention and asking questions.
I can understand that.
Please note that your posts are long and require a lot of reading. If there are many points of disagreement, then an extensive essay is necessary to handle it all properly. I usually do not have time for that.
Another thing I ask you to note is that your posts come within a flurry of many others, also requiring large volumes of work. I get these demands from all sides, all the time. I have 4 and 5 debates or discussions or comments flowing simultaneously. Have you ever handled such a barrage? I think not.
Please note that when your post arrives within a huge barrage of negatives and crazy attempts at humor, it gets flavored by them. If you want your posts to be $dang flavored, then keep the company you keep and flavor them that way, regardless of the gentle grammar you use.
If you post gentle lamb stuff in amongst a bunch of $dang thowers, then don't be too surprised if I lump you in with their condemnation. Stand apart from them a little in time and a lot in rhetoric (like telling them to cut the crap) then your letters to me will be more receivable. You seem incapable of putting yourself in my shoes. Prove me wrong, please. Take a close look at the $hit storms your post arrive on my screen within.
post relatively smaller pieces that prove to be MOST inconvenient for your building and maintaining a fictional and distorted Pure Evil picture of VPW for your reading audience at home.
Not my fault that's how he lived and I wont keep silent about it...though it sure kicks off your cognitive dissonance to the nth degree....
all sorts, manners, and varieties of posts by you folks
so typical of the way international and it's followers. Grease Spot Cafe is comprised of people from all walks of life. so not everyone has the same story and not everyone here was hurt by the way international. However, many of us have and I am one of them. I will not keep silent about how evil the way international is or that victor paul wierwille was a lying plagaraist, rapist, drunk, false prophet, and all around con-man. But my point with quoting mike is the way international has a long history of victim blaming that their adherents happily engage. At this point mike is now blaming people who post on grease spot cafe for his actions. Heck, hes derailing this thread right now and yet again.
I was not playing gotcha earlier when I pointed out the contradictory nature of your post . I was giving you honest feedback - and if you really wanted to know what I was interested in - you would have realized I PREFER the personal freedom represented in wierwille’s statement rather than being bullied with fear of the devil in your statement…if you wouldn’t let yourself get so worked up over innocent questions we might actually find some common ground.
Ok, I may have overreacted, but with the mitigation I supplied above to you.
The APPARENT contradiction of my post was only that: apparent.
But I now totally forget the context.
Last night I just did not want to go through the work hassle of another essay to explain the apparent contradiction. You can relate to this right now, because I am going to ask you to work for me. Please give me the two apparently contradictory statements, AND the exact url or page number where I can find them. I can then go see the total context. If you don't do that work for me then I have to do it, and as I said it is not worth that much work for me.
If I answer you then, it will only be ignored by everyone or misunderstood or mis-characterized or exaggerated or mocked or jeered or ... whatever.
If you do that work, and make it easy for me to review the contradiction then I will try to amswwer, just for your sake.
But really? What do you think you will really do with that answer from me?
In the most unlikely of circumstances where understand it and accept it, THEN WHAT?
Will that change your attitude any toward me? Will that change the next post you ask me about to waste time?
Really, these and a thousand other thoughts go through my mind when deciding whether to invest time or DODGE another time waster.
Her's proof mike doesnt actually read what we post, except in a very selective manner. Mike: None of the scriptures in that list are in blue, but my comments are in blue. Had you actually read any of it you would know that but yet you accuse others of not reading your posts...ya..right...
Yeah there's the bull$dang quality of proof that reigns here. Even if you had a water tight proof, it would demonstrate your desperation in trying to obfuscate what I post that is most inconvenient to your anti-idol.
Actually it is a proof that I haven't read your list since you first posted it, several weeks ago, and I merely transposed the colors in mind.
Consider that another one of your proofs shown to be baloney.
Yeah there's the bull$dang quality of proof that reigns here. Even if you had a water tight proof, it would demonstrate your desperation in trying to obfuscate what I post that is most inconvenient to your anti-idol.
Actually it is a proof that I haven't read your list since you first posted it, several weeks ago, and I merely transposed the colors in mind.
Consider that another one of your proofs shown to be baloney.
but since you say you read my verses and comments I bet you filed away your response on a stack of 3x5 cards somewhere....
I think people who have a relationship with Christ - the ones who know him and not just about him - would...
How does one know him and not just about him?
And if it is the case that the knowing about him comes from an accurate understanding of God's Word, then would the use of the word "just" (synonymous with "merely") be uncalled for?
I can see saying that knowing about Jesus from another man COULD be lacking in some way, but not if it was the perfect knowing about him that God intends when He talks about him.
What could you trust more than God's own words ABOUT Jesus?
Can you trust your experiences with Jesus that much?
Could you trust your memory of experiences with Jesus that much?
See where we are? We are back at 2 Peter.
Charity, are you one of those people who know Jesus directly, that is, in a way that is above or greater than knowing about him from the written Word of God?
According to your beliefs, your believing is such that you view any disagreement or questioning as a personal attack.
No, there are real personal attacks sprinkled in with the honest disagreements. Go back and look. Maybe you only read your own posts. I challenge you (along with you folks at home) to go back and read this whole thread and look for the personal attacks against me. Just look at the evidence instead of pulling it up from inattentive memory.
Nice flame bait, there, sir Troll-A-Lot. But the topic is the absent Christ? Go start a thread about the accuracy of the collaterals. Thats been going on here for years....heck just bump one up from the dead.
I did that in a minor way with that chapter on seeking Jesus in OMSW. Did you read it yet. It has blue fonts.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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Nathan_Jr
Yes! The pimp-prostitute analogy fits like a hand in a…
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Bolshevik
. . . you can find videos and listen to how these people reason as they speak for themselves . . . you could also have their faces peeled off and slid into toaster slots, hypothetically
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T-Bone
Charity, that’s cool insight, “I counsel you" being present indicative active ! It speaks of the immanence of Christ.
The MacArthur Study Bible notes the relevance of Christ’s presence even for us today, on page 1963, The MacArthur Study Bible notes of Revelation 2 and Revelation 3 :
Although these 7 churches were actual, historical churches in Asia Minor, they represent the types of churches that perennially exist throughout the church age. What Christ says to these churches is relevant in all times.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
On page 208 of Revelation the Baker Exegetical Commentary by Grant R Osborne the author notes of the spiritual counsel in Rev. 3:18 “I counsel you”:
the verb means to “give advice” and is used elsewhere only in John 18:14, where Caiaphas “advised” the Jews that “one man should die for the people.” It deliberately understates (using language language of advice for a command) the seriousness of the situation: “Let me give you some advice, You should…”
The manager in Luke 16: 1-8 used his “worldly wealth” to prepare for the future and so was “more shrewd” than “the children of light” because he used his wealth resources for the future and not just the present. So too the Laodiceans should use their “wealth” to “buy” spiritual and not just material rewards.
The key here is ἀγοράσαι παρ’ ἐμοῦ = to buy from me.
[also see Revelation 3:18 Greek English Interlinear: I counsel thee to buy from me gold fired by fire ]
The commercial nature of the verb is perfect for this city.; they had “bought” everything from earthly merchants and so had gone to the wrong “store”. The παρ’ ἐμοῦ is emphatic. Christ is the only proper source of goods that will last, so they have to switch their broker from the marketplace to him…
…This builds on the banking and commerce of the city. They think their accumulated possessions have made them rich (3:17), but they are actually poverty-stricken because they have purchased the wrong things…The idea of “purified” also appears in I Pet. 1:7 (“gold, which perishes even though refined by fire”) in a context of suffering and mat recall Ps. 66:10 (“you refined us like silver”; cf. Zech. 13:9; Isa. 1:25)…If 3:19 is understood to mean God is going to send trials, it reinforces this connection between purified gold and personal suffering.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Circling back to Charity’s point – Christ’s message was / is significant and practical to the Laodiceans and the church today! The time to RSVP is NOW - to listen to His voice and open the door.
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OldSkool
Holy SheepShonta Batman! We finally made something fit like a...
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OldSkool
Thanks for the insight, really cool post.
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Mike
No, no, no!
I do not do the derailing.
I post relatively smaller pieces that prove to be MOST inconvenient for your building and maintaining a fictional and distorted Pure Evil picture of VPW for your reading audience at home.
The derailing comes in by all sorts, manners, and varieties of posts by you folks that find my simple post most inconvenient. The all sorts, manners, and varieties of posts include jeering, misrepresentations, exaggerations, diagnosis if serious mental diseases, lunacy, selective omissions, and several more.
*/*/*
"You see, Mike, raf intervened because he is a moderator and he was trying to get us back on topic and unfortunately, we (myself included) have a habit of letting you comletely derail a thread when you have been proven in error."
Oh, REALLY! And who are the impartial judges of said proofs? Might it be the same crew who belched out said proofs? LoL Such unabashed pompus bull$hit !!!
The only close to impartial judge here so far was Raf, several times, and you folks were found wanting on a few points by him. I find you wanting on MANY points in your Kangaroo Proofs from your Kangaroo Courts.
If I had the time and a few others on my team we could make big trouble for your said proofs. A few weeks ago I looked at Raf's old thread on Actual Errors in PFAL and thought the first ten were doable.
But putting time into that is a luxury. I'm doing it as a mental exercise right now. I may even post some, or dredge up old challenges to said proofs. Of course they will be rejected before they are read. You folks have too much at stake to be proved wrong. You want to go down with this ship, after probably claiming the same for TWI years ago.
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Bolshevik
Victor Paul Wierwille was incapable of love.
What proof is going to change that?
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Mike
I can understand that.
Please note that your posts are long and require a lot of reading. If there are many points of disagreement, then an extensive essay is necessary to handle it all properly. I usually do not have time for that.
Another thing I ask you to note is that your posts come within a flurry of many others, also requiring large volumes of work. I get these demands from all sides, all the time. I have 4 and 5 debates or discussions or comments flowing simultaneously. Have you ever handled such a barrage? I think not.
Please note that when your post arrives within a huge barrage of negatives and crazy attempts at humor, it gets flavored by them. If you want your posts to be $dang flavored, then keep the company you keep and flavor them that way, regardless of the gentle grammar you use.
If you post gentle lamb stuff in amongst a bunch of $dang thowers, then don't be too surprised if I lump you in with their condemnation. Stand apart from them a little in time and a lot in rhetoric (like telling them to cut the crap) then your letters to me will be more receivable. You seem incapable of putting yourself in my shoes. Prove me wrong, please. Take a close look at the $hit storms your post arrive on my screen within.
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OldSkool
Not my fault that's how he lived and I wont keep silent about it...though it sure kicks off your cognitive dissonance to the nth degree....
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OldSkool
so typical of the way international and it's followers. Grease Spot Cafe is comprised of people from all walks of life. so not everyone has the same story and not everyone here was hurt by the way international. However, many of us have and I am one of them. I will not keep silent about how evil the way international is or that victor paul wierwille was a lying plagaraist, rapist, drunk, false prophet, and all around con-man. But my point with quoting mike is the way international has a long history of victim blaming that their adherents happily engage. At this point mike is now blaming people who post on grease spot cafe for his actions. Heck, hes derailing this thread right now and yet again.
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OldSkool
Psstt.....mike....Raf thinks your full of bullshonta.
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OldSkool
I was in your shoes, and shoes youve never worn and I left once I figured out the whole organization is crooked as a dog leg.
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Rocky
Your posts do NOT prove anything to anyone.
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Mike
Ok, I may have overreacted, but with the mitigation I supplied above to you.
The APPARENT contradiction of my post was only that: apparent.
But I now totally forget the context.
Last night I just did not want to go through the work hassle of another essay to explain the apparent contradiction. You can relate to this right now, because I am going to ask you to work for me. Please give me the two apparently contradictory statements, AND the exact url or page number where I can find them. I can then go see the total context. If you don't do that work for me then I have to do it, and as I said it is not worth that much work for me.
If I answer you then, it will only be ignored by everyone or misunderstood or mis-characterized or exaggerated or mocked or jeered or ... whatever.
If you do that work, and make it easy for me to review the contradiction then I will try to amswwer, just for your sake.
But really? What do you think you will really do with that answer from me?
In the most unlikely of circumstances where understand it and accept it, THEN WHAT?
Will that change your attitude any toward me? Will that change the next post you ask me about to waste time?
Really, these and a thousand other thoughts go through my mind when deciding whether to invest time or DODGE another time waster.
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Rocky
You just made an argument (to yourself) for staying silent.
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Mike
Yeah there's the bull$dang quality of proof that reigns here. Even if you had a water tight proof, it would demonstrate your desperation in trying to obfuscate what I post that is most inconvenient to your anti-idol.
Actually it is a proof that I haven't read your list since you first posted it, several weeks ago, and I merely transposed the colors in mind.
Consider that another one of your proofs shown to be baloney.
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OldSkool
straw-man.
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OldSkool
but since you say you read my verses and comments I bet you filed away your response on a stack of 3x5 cards somewhere....
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Mike
How does one know him and not just about him?
And if it is the case that the knowing about him comes from an accurate understanding of God's Word, then would the use of the word "just" (synonymous with "merely") be uncalled for?
I can see saying that knowing about Jesus from another man COULD be lacking in some way, but not if it was the perfect knowing about him that God intends when He talks about him.
What could you trust more than God's own words ABOUT Jesus?
Can you trust your experiences with Jesus that much?
Could you trust your memory of experiences with Jesus that much?
See where we are? We are back at 2 Peter.
Charity, are you one of those people who know Jesus directly, that is, in a way that is above or greater than knowing about him from the written Word of God?
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Mike
No, there are real personal attacks sprinkled in with the honest disagreements. Go back and look. Maybe you only read your own posts. I challenge you (along with you folks at home) to go back and read this whole thread and look for the personal attacks against me. Just look at the evidence instead of pulling it up from inattentive memory.
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Mike
You forgot: it is only the collaterals I revere, and they are the product of many people with spirit.
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OldSkool
Same song my friend, same song.
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Mike
I did that in a minor way with that chapter on seeking Jesus in OMSW. Did you read it yet. It has blue fonts.
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OldSkool
Mike, are you spiritually angry?
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