The Absent Christ?

[OldSkool]

9 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

But Christianity is at least hundreds of years older than all versions of The Bible.

The links I posted cover that as well. It's a good point of reference, not utterly exhaustive, not 100% correct but thorough nonetheless.

[Bolshevik]

1 minute ago, OldSkool said:

Fair enough, after re-reading my post I sounded like a jerk, my apologies.

Christ has been changed. The transfiguration was a sneak peak and those present needed to see it and Christ needed it as well. Christ has been changed to a life giving spirit. Whatever that actually means is beyond me. Like anyone else, I only have a glimpse.

 

No need to apologize, Dude.

I'm emphasizing  . . . The Bible itself is not Christianity . . . If all the Bibles disappeared from Earth would Christians suddenly forget what they are about?

 

Transfiguration . . . yeah not a word they use

[T-Bone]

39 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think the devil tempts Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus, when said Christians refuse to see and obey what the church epistles tell us.  It is sad to see Christians seeking comfort in a lovy-dovy, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus, all the while they themselves were called to give genuine comfort to those who hunger to be  reconciled to God.

 

YOU have just described to a T the counterfeit ministry of wierwille!

 

wierwille’s “relationship” with an imaginary god who tolerated his depraved lifestyle - he obeyed his own lusts instead of obeying the moral directives of the Bible. …self-love to the max !

 

wierwille had that lovey dovey chatty idolatry with an imaginary god and often let followers in on it - “Father showed me this” he used to say to slip in some hidden-Gnosticism-spin on a passage.”the Bible interprets itself” really means wierwille interprets it for you .  

 

Congrats, Mike you nailed it!

 

Oh what wierwille-infused idolatry doth romp in cyberspace - if only one would realize it.

[Bolshevik]

2 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

The links I posted cover that as well. It's a good point of reference, not utterly exhaustive, not 100% correct but thorough nonetheless.

Aside from Christianity,

Our culture emphasizes the existence of the individual and free speech.  Which we may take for granted.  (Jung argues Christ is a symbol of the self) . . . There's a discussion in there of the role of Christianity and the development of these concepts . . . VPW obviously would need each person to squash that understanding of ourselves

[Bolshevik]

Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual

[T-Bone]

55 minutes ago, Mike said:

I do not know exactly how to treat Jesus' words you quoted in the Gospels and how much of that applies to us in this administration. We  can look into it. 

How about finishing Penworks’ book Undertow first 

 

now switching to urgent public service message mode:

why wait another administration to finish reading Undertow - don’t get left behind - of those in the know. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by T-Bone
Urgent - finish Undertow…understand?!?!

[Bolshevik]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascension_of_Jesus

 

Quote

 

in modern times the ascension is seen less as the climax of the mystery of Christ than as "something of an embarrassment in the age of the telescope and the space probe,"^[39] an "idea [that] conjures up an outdated cosmology."^[40]

Yet, according to Dunn, a sole focus on this disparity is beside the real importance of Jesus' ascension, namely the resurrection and subsequent exaltation of Jesus.^[25] Farrow notes that, already in the third century, the ascension-story was read by Origen in a mystical way, as an "ascension of the mind rather than of the body," representing one of two basic ascension theologies.^[41] The real problem is the fact that Jesus is both present and absent,^[42] an ambiguity which points to a "something more" to which the Eucharist gives entry.^{[43][note 1]}

 

 

[Rocky]

6 hours ago, skyrider said:

After more than two decades of posting, I have long passed the threshold of giving you the benefit of doubt and surmise that you come to GSC for the sole satisfaction of CONFLICT.  You like to agitate others.  You seem to gain a sense of purpose by stirring the pot of conflicting statements for self gain [mental superiority over others].  And, although the vast majority disagrees with your statements... you are undeterred to keep coming back for more conflict.

When it becomes abundantly obvious that your declarations are wrong and absurd... you use the evasive tactic of avoidance.  You, instead, just move on to another conflicting statement or teaching.  At no time, do you stop and reflect on your position.

All of THAT is about Mike. It's a set of reasonable inferences and conclusions based on more than two decades. NONE of what Mike "contributes" on GSC furthers discussion.

I say my brother Skyrider nailed it.

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I don't forbid it either, but I do note that most of the time the believers in Acts did not have such interactions.  Years would chug by between the blue scriptures listed above.  I also note that none of the interactions were conjured up or entreated by believers. God initiates such rare interactions in Acts, not believers....

...I love all those interactions we see in Acts, but I do not see any instructions in them for my behavior and prayer life... 

 

Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name… John 20: 30, 31

 

 

Taking into consideration John alluding to other activities of Jesus  NOT recorded in the Bible, it would be very remiss for one to assume the book of Acts is any different. I think one reason why the book of Acts was written was to record key events in the birth and growth of the church. One should not assume that’s  ALL  that happened in that time.

[Nathan_Jr]

4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Cigarettes have warning labels.

But the population of underdeveloped and overly attached will continue to need them.

Death is not a person's biggest fear.

What does The Word take the place of? What is Christ?

When you say "The Word" I assume you mean the Bible. In TWI the Bible is whatever victor paul wierwille says it is.

It takes the place of awareness of what actually is, including self awareness. It takes the place of clear perception by replacing it with an opaque lens.

Christ, it seems to me, is the true nature of man. And that true nature is divine. Jesus embodied this nature. "I and the Father are one." 

One can't find this out by taking a class.

[Bolshevik]

9 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

When you say "The Word" I assume you mean the Bible. In TWI the Bible is whatever victor paul wierwille says it is.

It takes the place of awareness of what actually is, including self awareness. It takes the place of clear perception by replacing it with an opaque lens.

Christ, it seems to me, is the true nature of man. And that true nature is divine. Jesus embodied this nature. "I and the Father are one." 

One can't find this out by taking a class.

Yeah I'll jump between TWI meanings and my understanding of Christianity meanings.  The Bible is also basis of basis of culture.  Yes "The Word" in TWI was diversion tactic by VPW.  

TWI emphasized Christ as "just a man" . . . 

The phrase in the wikipedia link above . . . The real problem is the fact that Jesus is both present and absent,^[42] an ambiguity which points to a "something more"

Victor Paul Wierwille gave answers to "apparent contradictions" . . . handing out an easy button in removing ambiguity, paradox, mystery.  And making himself out to be a great one.

Perhaps we need ambiguity?  Perhaps paradox drives thoughts and actions forward?  To think and do things that would otherwise not occur to us?

 

 

[Nathan_Jr]

25 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Yeah I'll jump between TWI meanings and my understanding of Christianity meanings.  The Bible is also basis of basis of culture.  Yes "The Word" in TWI was diversion tactic by VPW.  

TWI emphasized Christ as "just a man" . . . 

The phrase in the wikipedia link above . . . The real problem is the fact that Jesus is both present and absent,^[42] an ambiguity which points to a "something more"

Victor Paul Wierwille gave answers to "apparent contradictions" . . . handing out an easy button in removing ambiguity, paradox, mystery.  And making himself out to be a great one.

Perhaps we need ambiguity?  Perhaps paradox drives thoughts and actions forward?  To think and do things that would otherwise not occur to us?

 

 

 

Perhaps ambiguity, paradox, mystery point to that for which verbiage is insufficient. Only a clear mind free from conditioning can contemplate them. And in the contemplation one might see beyond the image constructed by thought.

 

[Raf]

[quick aside: after our last interaction on this thread, Charity and I had a private chat during which I thanked her for correcting a mistake I made. The thread continued just fine without my elaborating on why I said what I did. But I didn't want anyone to think I ignored Charity after she pwned me on a discussion.]

Edited February 13, 2023 by Raf

[Mike]

3 hours ago, Charity said:

Mike, the following verses are to prove how wrong you are...

I see the word "Lord" as referring to either the Father or the Son, depending on context.  Jesus often taught of how extremely close he was to the Father.  Like Father, like Son, applies most appropriately here.  Seated at his Father's right hand, I am sure there are no secrets between them and they communicate thoroughly on everything.

I see the word "Lord" to be like "boss" or like "landlord."  

Jesus is my boss on the physical level, and I know any command from him as my boss, comes straight from his boss, the Father.

Words often have several definitions or references. You need to prove the case that this word has only one application, and that is to Jesus.  

I understand that all power is handed over to Jesus, so if we see anything getting done in God's name, we can bet Jesus is behind it, directly or indirectly. 

When he appears and is personally present every knee will bow to him and call him Lord, or boss. 

This is a very large topic to tackle.

I will be using the tools I was given to rightly divide the scriptures you quoted, but I can see I wont be trusting you and the tools you will bring to your research table. 

We differ on tools and attitudes toward the Bible. I thoroughly embrace the wonderful teaching that the Bible interprets itself, and therefore has only one Author. 

I'd like to read your thoughts on the Bible interpreting itself... or have I already done that?

 

[T-Bone]

4 hours ago, Mike said:

I think the devil tempts Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus,

when said Christians refuse to see and obey what the church epistles tell us. 

It is sad to see Christians seeking comfort in a lovy-dovy, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus,

all the while they themselves were called to give genuine comfort to those who hunger to be  reconciled to God.

In light of Rocky’s reminder to aim for progress in a discussion - I meant to ask you a few questions about this stuff too.

1. How does the devil tempt Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus?

2. Is it possible to have a real relationship with a fake Jesus?

3. Is it possible to have a fake relationship with a real Jesus?

4. What are your criteria to gauge if a Christian is having a relationship with a fake Jesus?

5. What indicates Christians are refusing to see and obey the church epistles?

6. What in the church epistles needs to be seen and obeyed?

7. Can you give examples of Christians seeking comfort in a lovey-dovey, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus.

8. What is the tipping point when the behavior in a relationship becomes excessively affectionate (lovey-dovey) ?

9. What is the difference between chatty or informal idolatry and official idolatry?

10. Is this 'chatting idolatry' done only in public – or can it be done in private as well?

11. Why does it sadden you to see this chatty idolatry?

12. Please describe genuine comfort.

13. What in your opinion is the biggest reason why said Christians cannot provide relief to those seeking reconciliation with God?

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by T-Bone
clarification

[OldSkool]

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

This is a very large topic to tackle.

I will be using the tools I was given to rightly divide the scriptures you quoted, but I can see I wont be trusting you and the tools you will bring to your research table. 

We differ on tools and attitudes toward the Bible. I thoroughly embrace the wonderful teaching that the Bible interprets itself, and therefore has only one Author. 

I'd like to read your thoughts on the Bible interpreting itself... or have I already done that?

No it isnt a large topic to tackle and it takes no research to simply read what is written. You obviously detest Jesus Lordship since you downgrade him to a landlord or a boss when he is the one who died for us and has been set as second in command over all. This is a classic case of you not letting the Bible intrepret itself because you don't believe what is written in plain English. 

[Charity]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

I see the word "Lord" as referring to either the Father or the Son, depending on context.  Jesus often taught of how extremely close he was to the Father.  Like Father, like Son, applies most appropriately here.  Seated at his Father's right hand, I am sure there are no secrets between them and they communicate thoroughly on everything.

I see the word "Lord" to be like "boss" or like "landlord."  

Jesus is my boss on the physical level, and I know any command from him as my boss, comes straight from his boss, the Father.

Words often have several definitions or references. You need to prove the case that this word has only one application, and that is to Jesus.  

I understand that all power is handed over to Jesus, so if we see anything getting done in God's name, we can bet Jesus is behind it, directly or indirectly. 

When he appears and is personally present every knee will bow to him and call him Lord, or boss. 

This is a very large topic to tackle.

I will be using the tools I was given to rightly divide the scriptures you quoted, but I can see I wont be trusting you and the tools you will bring to your research table. 

We differ on tools and attitudes toward the Bible. I thoroughly embrace the wonderful teaching that the Bible interprets itself, and therefore has only one Author. 

I'd like to read your thoughts on the Bible interpreting itself... or have I already done that?

 

Nice try Mike, but there have been so many posts since November of last year when I came to GSC that have explained such things to you.  I only reply to your posts to brighten up the darkness you bring with your obvious animosity towards Christ.   

[OldSkool]

23 minutes ago, Mike said:

I see the word "Lord" to be like "boss" or like "landlord."  

And once again ... you are wrong...where on earth do you qualify as a dictionary..who care what you "see" what a word means...Let's define King James words with a King James dictionary.

https://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/lord.html

1. A master; a person possessing supreme power and authority; a ruler; a governor. <--- Christ!

There's plenty more definitions that don't apply to Christ...

2. A tyrant; an oppressive ruler.

3. A husband.

I oft in bitterness of soul deplores my absent daughter, and my dearer lord.

My lord also being old. Gen. 18.

4. A baron; the proprietor of a manor; as the lord of the manor.

5. A nobleman; a title of honor in Great Britain given to those who are noble by birth or creation; a peer of the realm, including dukes, marquises, earls, viscounts and barons. Archbishops and bishops also, as members of the house of lords, are lords of parliament. Thus we say, lords temporal and spiritual. By courtesy also the title is given to the sons of dukes and marquises, and to the eldest sons of earls.

6. An honorary title bestowed on certain official characters; as lord advocate, lord chamberlain, lord chancellor, lord chief justice, &c.

7. In scripture, the Supreme Being; Jehovah. When Lord, in the Old Testament, is prints in capitals, it is the translation of JEHOVAH, and so might, with more propriety, be rendered. The word is applied to Christ, Ps. 110. Col. 3. and to the Holy Spirit, 2Thess. 3. As a title of respect, it is applied to kings, Gen. 40. 2Sam. 19. to princes and nobles, Gen 42. Dan. 4. to a husband, Gen. 18. to a prophet, 1Kings 18. 2Kings 2. and to a respectable person, Gen. 24. Christ is called the Lord of glory, 1Cor. 2. and Lord of lords, Rev. 19.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by OldSkool

[Charity]

4 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

No it isnt a large topic to tackle and it takes no research to simply read what is written. You obviously detest Jesus Lordship since you downgrade him to a landlord or a boss when he is the one who died for us and has been set as second in command over all. This is a classic case of you not letting the Bible intrepret itself because you don't believe what is written in plain English. 

A huge Amen to that children.

 

 

Little baby (amen) in the manger (amen) king Jesus (amen amen amen)
At the temple (amen) there they found him (amen)
Teachin' the elders (amen amen amen amen)

Poor Lazerus (amen) didn't bear it (amen) up a walkin' (amen amen amen)
Yeah amen amen amen amen amen amen

Lord Jesus (amen) up in heaven (amen) who'll be returnin' (amen amen amen)
Amen amen amen amen amen amen

Shout it children (amen) let me hear you (amen) hallelujah (amen amen amen)
Sing it children (amen) sing amen (amen) amen one more time amen amen amen

[Charity]

19 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

In light of Rocky’s reminder to aim for progress in a discussion - I meant to ask you a few questions about this stuff too.

1. How does the devil tempt Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus?

2. Is it possible to have a real relationship with a fake Jesus?

3. Is it possible to have a fake relationship with a real Jesus?

4. What are your criteria to gauge if a Christian is having a relationship with a fake Jesus?

5. What indicates Christians are refusing to see and obey the church epistles?

6. What in the church epistles needs to be seen and obeted?

7. Can you give examples of Christians seeking comfort in a lovey-dovey, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus.

8. What is the tipping point when the behavior in a relationship becomes excessively affectionate?

9. What is the difference between chatty or informal idolatry and official idolatry?

10. Is this chatting idolatry done only in public – or can it be done in private as well?

11. Why does it sadden you to see this chatty idolatry?

12. Please describe genuine comfort.

13. What in your opinion is the biggest reason why said Christians cannot provide relief to those seeking reconciliation with God?

 

Thanks T-Bone,

Your list shows how it's hard to take what Mike says seriously especially when it's in response to posts where scriptures are actually given. 

[Bolshevik]

41 minutes ago, Mike said:

. . . .

We differ on tools and attitudes toward the Bible. I thoroughly embrace the wonderful teaching that the Bible interprets itself, and therefore has only one Author. 

I'd like to read your thoughts on the Bible interpreting itself... or have I already done that?

 

 

 

*scratches scalp*

[OldSkool]

44 minutes ago, Mike said:

This is a very large topic to tackle.

I will be using the tools I was given to rightly divide the scriptures you quoted, but I can see I wont be trusting you and the tools you will bring to your research table. 

We differ on tools and attitudes toward the Bible. I thoroughly embrace the wonderful teaching that the Bible interprets itself, and therefore has only one Author. 

I'd like to read your thoughts on the Bible interpreting itself... or have I already done that?

 

BS. Trying to change topics, which you do most anytime you can't back up what wierwille says. We do differ on attitudes towards scripture because I respect what is written without using a bunch of cherrypicked definitions and such from the nearest concordance. Tools? How about holy spirit and relying on Christ/God as noted in scripture. 

1 John 2:27

 

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

[Nathan_Jr]

One of my favorite verses.

Before I divorced my wife, before I realized she was a sociopath/narcissist, I sent her this verse in a text. It was one of many attempts to extricate her from the manipulation of the wierwillian "fellowship" and save our marriage.

She hated that verse. HATED it. I suspect she had it crossed out of her Bible. She was obedient.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

In light of Rocky’s reminder to aim for progress in a discussion - I meant to ask you a few questions about this stuff too.

1. How does the devil tempt Christians with fake relationships with a fake Jesus?

2. Is it possible to have a real relationship with a fake Jesus?

3. Is it possible to have a fake relationship with a real Jesus?

4. What are your criteria to gauge if a Christian is having a relationship with a fake Jesus?

5. What indicates Christians are refusing to see and obey the church epistles?

6. What in the church epistles needs to be seen and obeyed?

7. Can you give examples of Christians seeking comfort in a lovey-dovey, chatty idolatry with a fake Jesus.

8. What is the tipping point when the behavior in a relationship becomes excessively affectionate (lovey-dovey) ?

9. What is the difference between chatty or informal idolatry and official idolatry?

10. Is this 'chatting idolatry' done only in public – or can it be done in private as well?

11. Why does it sadden you to see this chatty idolatry?

12. Please describe genuine comfort.

13. What in your opinion is the biggest reason why said Christians cannot provide relief to those seeking reconciliation with God?

 

I'll add these questions to the folder I started to track all unanswered questions. 

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I'll add these questions to the folder I started to track all unanswered questions. 

oh...hey guys....hey NateJ...drop a note in there for me too...I got dirty winders to tend to....