Since you asserted wierwille's new man nature was evident and he did great things when he was "in fellowship with God"..... I would like some examples of this. Can you elaborate?
If it was SO EVIDENT..... then you must have DOZENS of examples.
Thanks for your reply.
~~~~~~~
18 hours ago, skyrider said:
When was wierwille "in fellowship?"
When was wierwille's "new man nature" evident?
For instance, was wierwille in fellowship with God when he shut down his LIVE TEACHINGS at pfal '77 and had his desk brought out so that he could sit and read scripture verses while he sipped his Drambuie? Was wierwille's new man nature in play when he tweaked Rev. Oral Robert's teaching on "The Fourth Man" and pawned it off as "The Red Thread?"
Even in his "finest moments"...... (cough, cough) the charlatan wierwille was play-acting the part of a spiritual man of God. He was a serial plagiarist who had rarily a thought, an idea, or a teaching that he could absolutely call his own. He fooled LOTS of people along the way, but did you ever notice that it was those closest to him.....valets, bodyguards, pilots, research men, etc....abandoned him even BEFORE he retired in 1982?
Wierwille certainly didn't allow "on-again / off-again" men around him. He demanded commitment, focus and even near perfection. How often did some of us corps see wierwille berate a corps person for the simplest of mistakes? Wierwille was a chain-smoking drunkard, an unforgiving taskmaster, a bully to even the weakest corps member, a striker when irritated, a life-long misogynist and sexual predator. Anyone who CONTINUES TO THIS DAY to give wierwille a pass is a devoted sycophant and possibly a hidden narcissist himself to garner self-referential attention.
The second spectacular aspect is that Christ is the head of the Body. The Church is one Body with and of Christ, not separated as the Bride and Bridegroom were. Because of this "oneness” of relationship, Christ is able to energize each part of the Body directly. He directs each member by his spirit which is in each individual believer.
This last paragraph looks promising. No way to know how it will be explained until the next installment is revealed. Fingers crossed.
Here is the first installment on that article. It required a ton of editing, getting it exact. I'll get the next posted soon. This is from Oct/Nov 1978.
“There is no such thing as a free lunch!” That was the conclusion of a group of economists when asked to express the basis of economic theory in one sentence. The rescuing of humankind from the state of death brought on by Adam’s sin is, metaphorically, a banquet prepared by the most talented Chef, served in the most elegant of dining salons by the most attentive of servants. Its cost is correspondingly superlative, yet the bill we receive includes all gratuities and is marked “Paid in Full” by the work of Jesus Christ.
To pay for this banquet, God gave His most valuable asset — His only begotten son. The promise of this sacrifice gave hope to the Old Testament believers and allowed them to taste of the hors d’ouevres and appetizers of God's banquet. In the menu, written by the prophets, they could read of the courses to come. These courses were to be brought by the coming of the Messiah — first in suffering, then in glory.
The banquet was progressing as expected — the main courses being prepared by the death and resurrection of Christ, “our passover,” when, to the surprise of all the diners, the Chef produced His piece de resistance — the great mystery. Not mentioned on the menu, it was nourishment of a different sort, heretofore untasted, never before served on any table. It is this course that you and I partake of today — a completely new food made available by the ascension and exalted position of our advocate and mediator, Jesus Christ.
Have you ever wondered, “What does Jesus Christ do up there at God’s right hand?” It is easy enough to see what he did on earth. We can read the gospel accounts of Christ healing the sick, raising the dead, teaching God’s Word, proclaiming the Kingdom of God, and many other feats, all of which were carrying out the will of God here on earth as only the Son of God could. Since he is ascended, he can no longer do those things, yet God would not raise him into the heavenlies to demote him. What he is doing now must be of greater importance and significance than what he did on earth, if that is imaginable. It is, if we use God’s Word to enlighten our imaginations with accurate “Word pictures.”
I Timothy 2:5:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
He Is Our Mediator.
This is a very enlightening verse. First of all it tells us that Christ Jesus is a man and that God is one God (not three). Jesus Christ could not, therefore, be God. A mediator is a “go-between,” one who stands in the middle and communicates or deals with each party. More technically, a mediator is “one who mediates for peace and unites parties at variance.” The Greek word for mediator, mesites, does not occur in profane Greek since they had no higher word than that meaning arbitrator. In the Septuagint, this word mesites occurs only in Job 9:33 where it is translated “daysman.” This translation sheds tremendous light on the role of the ascended Christ, in view of the Eastern culture of the daysman.
A daysman in Eastern culture was literally a “great soul” in a town or village. He was unappointed and he was not elected but he was a man of great wisdom, well versed in the Scriptures, a man who rose up to reconcile the wrong-doer to the wronged. Jesus Christ acts to reconcile mankind back to God. He is our mediator, our daysman.
The daysman handles each situation personally, tenderly, unhurriedly. He is usually a wealthy man, well known and respected in his village. When people have a problem and want more than a legal settlement, both parties come to his door. He invites them in, gives them something to eat and waits until they bring up the situation. Then, patiently, he will hear each side of the story, yet he never makes a judgment. From his knowledge of the Scriptures he lovingly explains to the wrongdoer why he is wrong and why he needs forgiveness. Then he patiently explains to the wronged why he should be forgiving. This is tremendously revealing when applied to Jesus Christ, as he can personally relate to every situation that would cause a believer to break fellowship with God. Christ was tempted in all points, confronted with every opportunity not to obey God, not to believe God in every specific area, yet he did not sin (Hebrews 4:15). God has never been tempted with the sin of disobeying Himself. Therefore, to speak in limited, human terms, we could say He has not “been through it” like Jesus Christ has. That is why calling Jesus Christ a daysman, a mediator, between sinful man and God is so meaningful.
This relationship of daysman emphasizes the tenderness, the concern and the love involved between God, Jesus Christ and men. The result is total forgiveness and complete reconciliation beyond the degree that could be accomplished by Jesus Christ while on earth. It takes the greatness of his position at God’s right hand to be our daysman.
The whole part of the article beginning with 1 Timothy 2:5 is inaccurate.You cannot relate both the daysman analogy and this verse to a believer breaking fellowship with God.
First, 1 Timothy 2:5 is quoted.
Next, the title of this part of the article is “He is Our Mediator.”
Then comes the analogy of the daysman.Immediately after ending this analogy, the next sentence connects it to our relationship with God by using the word “this.”
Quote: “This is tremendously revealing when applied to Jesus Christ, as he can personally relate to every situation that would cause a believer to break fellowship with God.”
A few sentences later as well as in the last paragraph, it reverts back to “man” and men” which was included in the 1 Timothy verse.
Quote: That is why calling Jesus Christ a daysman, a mediator, between sinful man and God is so meaningful.
Quote: “This relationship of daysman emphasizes the tenderness, the concern and the love involved between God, Jesus Christ and men.”
Note: Men - not the believer is the context of 1 Timothy 2:5 is below.
1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
I believe that the truth of this verse (which appears at the beginning of this piece of the article) is being used out of context to support the inaccurate teaching that Jesus Christ is our mediator. He is our Lord and Savior and our Redeemer.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And [But] if any man sin, we have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The office that the ascended Christ fulfills in this case is again dealing with forgiveness and reconciliation of the sinner and God, similar to that of the daysman. This time, however, the emphasis is on the legal side of our forgiveness. An advocate is synonymous with a defense attorney; and, indeed, the context in I John goes on to mention the propitiation, the legal payment in full for our sins.
Jesus Christ not only brings the sinner and God back together in a tender, loving, heart manner; but this reconciliation is legally sound. The sin, the breach of God’s laws, has been completely paid for, and Christ Jesus is in the “heavenly court room” to plead our case every time we need it. This is an amazing thing, we who were dead in sins, quickened by God’s grace, yet who continue to fall short of the mark of fellowship with God have an attorney who paid the consequences of our shortcomings and has taken up residence at the right hand of the throne of God to defend us from the slander of the Adversary and to reconcile us each time we break fellowship. How all-encompassing is God’s care for His sons!
When referring to 1 John 2:1-2, the article says, "The office that the ascended Christ fulfills in this case is again dealing with forgiveness and reconciliation of the sinner and God similar to that of the daysman."
However, there is no mention of reconciliation in this verse.We were reconciled to God when we were born again.This verse is about Jesus Christ being our advocate for the sins believers commit after being reconciled to God.
The article also says, "Jesus Christ not only brings the sinner and God back together in a tender, loving, heart manner; but this reconciliation is legally sound."
This sentence implies that the “tender, loving” relationship between sinner and God broke off because of the sin and that Jesus Christ, our advocate, was able to bring it back to us.Yet Romans 8:35-37 says that nothing will separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.It is the believer who sins who is being brought back to God and his never-ending love through our advocate Jesus Christ.
The differences are subtle but I feel they leave the wrong image in our minds concerning our relationship with God.
Verse 9 of this same chapter also adds, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
Since you asserted wierwille's new man nature was evident and he did great things when he was "in fellowship with God"..... I would like some examples of this. Can you elaborate?
If it was SO EVIDENT..... then you must have DOZENS of examples.
Thanks for your reply.
~~~~~~~
It's mostly in the written works, but recorded teachings and personal appearances helped also. My life was benefited greatly; still is.
In order for the Church to function as a whole, however, there are certain gifts of grace that it needs, in addition to the power of the gift of holy spirit in each member. These gifts of grace also were not available until Christ ascended.
They are called gift ministries.
Ephesians 4:8, 11: Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.
The reason and functions of these gifts of grace are given in the following verses.
Ephesians 4:12, 14, 15:
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they He in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
How magnificent is the ascension! Not only do we have the power of holy spirit, the “comforter” from God because of it, but also we are of the Body of Christ, the Church of Grace, and we know how to operate the power we have been given. Along with it, we have the gift ministries for the perfecting of the saints and the building up of the Body of Christ. All of this is available because of the ascension.
Had the ascension not occurred, there would still be many benefits to believers as the result of the life, death and resurrection of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ. Among these are newness of life, righteousness, justification, freedom from the bondage of sin and the consequences of sin. These benefits were not new with the resurrection of Christ. Adam and Eve enjoyed them before their disobedience. The purpose of Jesus Christ, as revealed in the Old Testament, was to undo the consequences of that disobedience and to regain these benefits for believers. He accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
God, however, had a greater purpose in mind for His only begotten son. He kept that greater purpose hidden until He revealed it to the Apostle Paul. This is the great mystery. It is in the ascension and seated position of Jesus Christ that God’s “riches of the glory of this mystery’’ (Colossians 1:27) could be made known.
Because Christ was raised through the heavenlies, he is at God’s right hand. Because he is seated there, our redemption is complete. Because he is above all the power of the Adversary, we can claim victory in every dimension of our lives with our power of attorney in the name of Jesus Christ. We are seated with him (Ephesians 2:6) and complete in him (Colossians 2:10). Captivity is led captive and he works as our daysman and advocate. Because he is up “on high,” we take his place down here with the power of holy spirit that he sent forth. We are perfected as spiritual individuals and built up collectively as a body by the gift ministries which he gave to the Church. We now live as members of his Body (and not as separate units), with Christ as the head because he ascended to the headship of the Church. This Church of the Body forms the habitation of God where God has taken up residence in Christ in us. That is God’s greater purpose which He kept hidden from before the foundations of the world.
As we claim these truths and walk in this light, we partake of the allegorical banquet that is the more abundant life. By God’s providence, we were ushered in and seated for the main course. Our first taste of the rightly-divided Word of God was a morsel of that new kind of nourishment not mentioned in the Old Testament menu. It is our privilege to enjoy this banquet of life completely paid for by the death, resurrection and ascension of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ.
Let me agree, again, the Bible teaches exactly what you say it does. Jesus IS present in his lordship, directing the affairs of the church in Acts. But what about NOW? He's directing the affairs of church A and of church B, which go to war over belly buttons (not really, but the real disputes are just as substantive). When two churches, both directed by the lordship of the present Christ, disagree on a point of doctrine, who settles it? Church C? Church C doesn't believe in belly buttons.
It's only the Word that can resolve disputes, Biblically. "Try the spirits," the Bible says. How? Against what standard? Your gut? What if your gut disagrees with another believer's gut? Listen for the still small voice? But they don't agree with each other.
"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is the only way to resolve disagreements about the will of God.
Isn't it?
Hi Raf, I read the answer OldSkool gave later on in this thread to your question in the above post. When I went back to check my post to you on page 77, I saw I had omitted this question in my list of things you had said about the Bible. Your question was very much on topic and I should have included it in the list. This was not fair of me to have done this and I apologize.
Hi Raf, I read the answer OldSkool gave later on in this thread to your question in the above post. When I went back to check my post to you on page 77, I saw I had omitted this question in my list of things you had said about the Bible. Your question was very much on topic and I should have included it in the list. This was not fair of me to have done this and I apologize.
The question he asks accepts the introductory reasoning of VPW, the worship of the Bible. Which he takes from protestants.
There's a long history there, with guys like Martin Luther breaking with the "authors" of the Bible, the Catholic Church.
AFAIK, tradition and scripture go hand in hand. As do Faith and Science.
Otherwise, we dance around the question of where's Waldo?
“There is no such thing as a free lunch!” That was the conclusion of a group of economists when asked to express the basis of economic theory in one sentence. The rescuing of humankind from the state of death brought on by Adam’s sin is, metaphorically, a banquet prepared by the most talented Chef, served in the most elegant of dining salons by the most attentive of servants. Its cost is correspondingly superlative, yet the bill we receive includes all gratuities and is marked “Paid in Full” by the work of Jesus Christ.
To pay for this banquet, God gave His most valuable asset — His only begotten son. The promise of this sacrifice gave hope to the Old Testament believers and allowed them to taste of the hors d’ouevres and appetizers of God's banquet. In the menu, written by the prophets, they could read of the courses to come. These courses were to be brought by the coming of the Messiah — first in suffering, then in glory.
The banquet was progressing as expected — the main courses being prepared by the death and resurrection of Christ, “our passover,” when, to the surprise of all the diners, the Chef produced His piece de resistance — the great mystery. Not mentioned on the menu, it was nourishment of a different sort, heretofore untasted, never before served on any table. It is this course that you and I partake of today — a completely new food made available by the ascension and exalted position of our advocate and mediator, Jesus Christ.
Just a couple more thoughts about this article.
1. IMO, the banquet analogy in the first two paragraphs, though overplayed, made some good points about the accomplishments Jesus.
2. The third paragraph makes the statement about the great mystery, “It is this course that you and I partake of today — a completely new food made available by the ascension and exalted position of our advocate and mediator, Jesus Christ.”
This seems to tie in with the “Old Testament and Gospels are for our learning but the Epistles are written to us” doctrine.
Mike: "When he was in fellowship he did great things for us. THAT is what I prefer to focus on and magnify."
Me: "When was wierwille "in fellowship?" When was wierwille's "new man nature" evident?"
Mike: "It's mostly in the written works, but recorded teachings and personal appearances helped also."
TRANSLATION: Mike makes these grandiose declarations about wierwille's life and "greatness"..... but then gives evasive replies to back up wierwille's new man nature in Christ. This evasiveness has all the hallmarks of a snake oil representative selling a product from a snake oil company. Always barking bold assertions of wierwille's wares, but only in the shadowy form of generalities. Pfffttt.
What he is doing now must be of greater importance and significance than what he did on earth, if that is imaginable. It is, if we use God’s Word to enlighten our imaginations with accurate “Word pictures.”
I Timothy 2:5:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. He Is Our Mediator.
This is a very enlightening verse. First of all it tells us that Christ Jesus is a man and that God is one God (not three). Jesus Christ could not, therefore, be God. A mediator is a “go-between,” one who stands in the middle and communicates or deals with each party. More technically, a mediator is “one who mediates for peace and unites parties at variance.” The Greek word for mediator, mesites, does not occur in profane Greek since they had no higher word than that meaning arbitrator. In the Septuagint, this word mesites occurs only in Job 9:33 where it is translated “daysman.” This translation sheds tremendous light on the role of the ascended Christ, in view of the Eastern culture of the daysman.
A daysman in Eastern culture was literally a “great soul” in a town or village. He was unappointed and he was not elected but he was a man of great wisdom, well versed in the Scriptures, a man who rose up to reconcile the wrong-doer to the wronged. Jesus Christ acts to reconcile mankind back to God. He is our mediator, our daysman.
15 hours ago, WordWolf said:
He spent an awful lot of time working with the English definition of "daysman", which is a shame because it's such a non-issue to fixate on the specifics of the ENGLISH definition of words in the Bible.
WordWolf’s post alerted me to the problem – good catch WordWolf!
I read the whole chapter of Job 9 (I copied it further below from NIV) and realized there are a few issues with that Way Mag article – one of the most glaring is the attack on the Trinity...so first here is the Wag Mag article from Mike's post:
It is, if we use God’s Word to enlighten our imaginations with accurate “Word pictures.”
I Timothy 2:5:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
He Is Our Mediator.
This is a very enlightening verse. First of all it tells us that Christ Jesus is a man and that God is one God (not three). Jesus Christ could not, therefore, be God. A mediator is a “go-between,” one who stands in the middle and communicates or deals with each party. More technically, a mediator is “one who mediates for peace and unites parties at variance.” The Greek word for mediator, mesites, does not occur in profane Greek since they had no higher word than that meaning arbitrator. In the Septuagint, this word mesites occurs only in Job 9:33 where it is translated “daysman.” This translation sheds tremendous light on the role of the ascended Christ, in view of the Eastern culture of the daysman.
A daysman in Eastern culture was literally a “great soul” in a town or village. He was unappointed and he was not elected but he was a man of great wisdom, well versed in the Scriptures, a man who rose up to reconcile the wrong-doer to the wronged. Jesus Christ acts to reconcile mankind back to God. He is our mediator, our daysman.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Right off the bat I have a problem with the writer saying Jesus Christ is a man. Even if one wants to ignore the hybrid concept alluded to in the Bible that Jesus was both human and divine - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among usJohn 1:14there is still the ‘transformation’ of the resurrected Christ – I mean technically he is no longer a male species of humankind. He is something way beyond that. Seriously! How do you classify the resurrected Christ with his new body on this chart:
Why do we have to hold to a scientifically accurate interpretation of I Timothy 2:5, when it is simply talking about the role of a mediator?
I think for many something that cemented wierwille’s anti-Trinitarian stance was embracing his absolutist thinking . In other words, Jesus Christ is either a man or he is God. There’s no in-between – no other options. I’ve been curious enough to read some captivating books – scholarly works – besides systematic theologies – that are written from a Trinitarian viewpoint, to realize wierwille’s anti-Trinitarian arguments are nothing more than a mischaracterization of the Trinity – probably something closer to a caricature that exaggerates the most striking feature of the Godhead – the divine.
Maybe it’s a similar issue to wierwille’s lack of understanding that transcendence and immanence are both divine features of God and Jesus Christ. That does not make them identical. Even speaking relationship-wise we read in Scripture the Father sends the Son…Jesus said the Father is greater than I… one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all Ephesians 4:6 ... …then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in allI Corinthians 15:28
even the motif of father and son alone resonates with dads and kids… …in John 14, 15 and 16 we observe the quadruple principle – the Father > the Son > the Holy Spirit > you…but should we take that quadruple principle so literally in such a linear fashion…maybe Jesus was dumbing it down for beings trapped in a space-time continuum. We think a process must start somewhere in space and time. Jesus Christ can’t really be at the right hand of God in heaven and yet be with us always as head of the church – at the same time - can he? How can he do that?
I’m not saying I understand it or can explain it – I just feel the concept of the Trinity holds a lot more promise of unraveling the relevant biblical data – inspiring us to think bigger about God / Jesus Christ and how all this relates to finite beings.
~ ~ ~ ~
Now if you read all of Job 9 in NIV, it is obviously speaking of someone who has a lot more power and authority than any human.:
9:33 someone to mediate between us. In the ancient Near East, people sometimes would ask for their personal gods to mediate on their behalf in the divine council. At other times, gods are seen as judges who mediate a person’s situations. Arbitration was also carried out in human courts in a variety of ways. One means of mediation was carried out by someone in the family acting on a person’s behalf.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
The description of a mediator in the Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible (or CBSB) differs significantly from the explanation of daysman in Way Mag article (or WM) in a few ways. CBSB says mediator refers to a popular culturalism of appealing to a deity as a negotiator as well as human courtroom adaptations and even notes a family member working as a representative. Whereas WM limits daysman as to someone of intellectual / moral greatness prominent in the community...I understand Job 9:33 as an appeal to someone who is more than human to be a mediator between God and us.
Edited by T-Bone the law firm of Editors, Mediators, Arbitrators, Daysman, & T-Bone "we will prosecute all typos to the full extent of the laws of grammar...we deal in all matters of sin with syntax"
WordWolf’s post alerted me to the problem – good catch WordWolf!
I read the whole chapter of Job 9 (I copied it further below from NIV) and realized there are a few issues with that Way Mag article – one of the most glaring is the attack on the Trinity...so first here is the Wag Mag article from Mike's post:
It is, if we use God’s Word to enlighten our imaginations with accurate “Word pictures.”
I Timothy 2:5:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
He Is Our Mediator.
This is a very enlightening verse. First of all it tells us that Christ Jesus is a man and that God is one God (not three). Jesus Christ could not, therefore, be God. A mediator is a “go-between,” one who stands in the middle and communicates or deals with each party. More technically, a mediator is “one who mediates for peace and unites parties at variance.” The Greek word for mediator, mesites, does not occur in profane Greek since they had no higher word than that meaning arbitrator. In the Septuagint, this word mesites occurs only in Job 9:33 where it is translated “daysman.” This translation sheds tremendous light on the role of the ascended Christ, in view of the Eastern culture of the daysman.
A daysman in Eastern culture was literally a “great soul” in a town or village. He was unappointed and he was not elected but he was a man of great wisdom, well versed in the Scriptures, a man who rose up to reconcile the wrong-doer to the wronged. Jesus Christ acts to reconcile mankind back to God. He is our mediator, our daysman.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Right off the bat I have a problem with the writer saying Jesus Christ is a man. Even if one wants to ignore the hybrid concept alluded to in the Bible that Jesus was both human and divine - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among usJohn 1:14there is still the ‘transformation’ of the resurrected Christ – I mean technically he is no longer a male species of humankind. He is something way beyond that. Seriously! How do you classify the resurrected Christ with his new body on this chart:
Why do we have to hold to a scientifically accurate interpretation of I Timothy 2:5, when it is simply talking about the role of a mediator?
I think for many something that cemented wierwille’s anti-Trinitarian stance was embracing his absolutist thinking . In other words, Jesus Christ is either a man or he is God. There’s no in-between – no other options. I’ve been curious enough to read some captivating books – scholarly works – besides systematic theologies – that are written from a Trinitarian viewpoint, to realize wierwille’s anti-Trinitarian arguments are nothing more than a mischaracterization of the Trinity – probably something closer to a caricature that exaggerates the most striking feature of the Godhead – the divine.
Maybe it’s a similar issue to wierwille’s lack of understanding that transcendence and immanence are both divine features of God and Jesus Christ. That does not make them identical. Even speaking relationship-wise we read in Scripture the Father sends the Son…Jesus said the Father is greater than I… one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all Ephesians 4:6 ... …then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in allI Corinthians 15:28
even the motif of father and son alone resonates with dads and kids… …in John 14, 15 and 16 we observe the quadruple principle – the Father > the Son > the Holy Spirit > you…but should we take that quadruple principle so literally in such a linear fashion…maybe Jesus was dumbing it down for beings trapped in a space-time continuum. We think a process must start somewhere in space and time. Jesus Christ can’t really be at the right hand of God in heaven and yet be with us always as head of the church – at the same time - can he? How can he do that?
I’m not saying I understand it or can explain it – I just feel the concept of the Trinity holds a lot more promise of unraveling the relevant biblical data – inspiring us to think bigger about God / Jesus Christ and how all this relates to finite beings.
~ ~ ~ ~
Now if you read all of Job 9 in NIV, it is obviously speaking of someone who has a lot more power and authority than any human.:
9:33 someone to mediate between us. In the ancient Near East, people sometimes would ask for their personal gods to mediate on their behalf in the divine council. At other times, gods are seen as judges who mediate a person’s situations. Arbitration was also carried out in human courts in a variety of ways. One means of mediation was carried out by someone in the family acting on a person’s behalf.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
The description of a mediator in the Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible (or CBSB) differs significantly from the explanation of daysman in Way Mag article (or WM) in a few ways. CBSB says mediator refers to a popular culturalism of appealing to a deity as a negotiator as well as human courtroom adaptations and even notes a family member working as a representative. Whereas WM limits daysman as to someone of intellectual / moral greatness prominent in the community...I understand Job 9:33 as an appeal to someone who is more than human to be a mediator between God and us.
To those interested, here is a website https://thewaymagazine.com/the-daysman/ showing an article about the daysman posted on May 27, 2020 by the Way. At the bottom of the article, it says ,"This is a reprint from the March/April 2009 issue of The Way Magazine."
It's very similar to the article Mike posted including the Job and 1 Timothy verses but adds a couple extra verses as well. This one however gives credit to how Bishop Pillai explains the daysman in his book, "Light through an Eastern Window" where the other one didn't.
Mike: "When he was in fellowship he did great things for us. THAT is what I prefer to focus on and magnify."
Me: "When was wierwille "in fellowship?" When was wierwille's "new man nature" evident?"
Mike: "It's mostly in the written works, but recorded teachings and personal appearances helped also."
TRANSLATION: Mike makes these grandiose declarations about wierwille's life and "greatness"..... but then gives evasive replies to back up wierwille's new man nature in Christ. This evasiveness has all the hallmarks of a snake oil representative selling a product from a snake oil company. Always barking bold assertions of wierwille's wares, but only in the shadowy form of generalities. Pfffttt.
.
wierwille's concept of in/out of fellowship are comical. It was as if you could do whatever you wanted as long as your believing wasnt compromised and you were acting out of love. It's almost like you could be in fellowship, and that would equate to standing under a flood light, and then be out of fellowhip, and that would equate to standing out of the floodlight in the dark. What kind of non-sensical garbage is that...because meanwhile the sinful and destructive behavior never stopped with wierwille. It didn't stop with martindale. It didnt stop with rosalile because she covered it all up, spending vast sums of donations on lawyer fees and out of court settlements. Bottom line is when you ask for forgiveness it's accompanied by the fruits meet for repentance, as John The Baptist stated. In other words, the sinful actions stop and there is a corresponding change of heart that led to the action in the first place so the action isn't repeated. Ive never come across any indication of that sort of thing with wierwille...check this..
wierwille taught martindale to be a sexual predator. Theoretically, had wierwille truly repented his repentance would have been followed with him addressing the ministry (or something similar) appropriately so they no longer think his former sinful ways are justifiabally correct. Maybe mike can find proof of wierwille doint this sort of thing in one of his files, but Ive never seen any indication of a change from any of the top honchos...wierwille, martindale, rosalie who was involved never publicly repented...etc.
In order for the Church to function as a whole, however, there are certain gifts of grace that it needs, in addition to the power of the gift of holy spirit in each member. These gifts of grace also were not available until Christ ascended.
They are called gift ministries.
Ephesians 4:8, 11: Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.
The reason and functions of these gifts of grace are given in the following verses.
Ephesians 4:12, 14, 15:
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they He in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
How magnificent is the ascension! Not only do we have the power of holy spirit, the “comforter” from God because of it, but also we are of the Body of Christ, the Church of Grace, and we know how to operate the power we have been given. Along with it, we have the gift ministries for the perfecting of the saints and the building up of the Body of Christ. All of this is available because of the ascension.
Had the ascension not occurred, there would still be many benefits to believers as the result of the life, death and resurrection of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ. Among these are newness of life, righteousness, justification, freedom from the bondage of sin and the consequences of sin. These benefits were not new with the resurrection of Christ. Adam and Eve enjoyed them before their disobedience. The purpose of Jesus Christ, as revealed in the Old Testament, was to undo the consequences of that disobedience and to regain these benefits for believers. He accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
God, however, had a greater purpose in mind for His only begotten son. He kept that greater purpose hidden until He revealed it to the Apostle Paul. This is the great mystery. It is in the ascension and seated position of Jesus Christ that God’s “riches of the glory of this mystery’’ (Colossians 1:27) could be made known.
Because Christ was raised through the heavenlies, he is at God’s right hand. Because he is seated there, our redemption is complete. Because he is above all the power of the Adversary, we can claim victory in every dimension of our lives with our power of attorney in the name of Jesus Christ. We are seated with him (Ephesians 2:6) and complete in him (Colossians 2:10). Captivity is led captive and he works as our daysman and advocate. Because he is up “on high,” we take his place down here with the power of holy spirit that he sent forth. We are perfected as spiritual individuals and built up collectively as a body by the gift ministries which he gave to the Church. We now live as members of his Body (and not as separate units), with Christ as the head because he ascended to the headship of the Church. This Church of the Body forms the habitation of God where God has taken up residence in Christ in us. That is God’s greater purpose which He kept hidden from before the foundations of the world.
As we claim these truths and walk in this light, we partake of the allegorical banquet that is the more abundant life. By God’s providence, we were ushered in and seated for the main course. Our first taste of the rightly-divided Word of God was a morsel of that new kind of nourishment not mentioned in the Old Testament menu. It is our privilege to enjoy this banquet of life completely paid for by the death, resurrection and ascension of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ.
[end]
This is all knowledge that's been taught for decades. It's good knowledge, but having 2-way communications between the Head (Christ) and his members (us) as a human body does and the book of Acts reveals, is not included. I guess it's not one of the things Jesus Christ is doing up there.
I’m sure you already know this, but Bishop Pillai shouldn’t be considered a final authority on the historical-cultural idiosyncrasies of the ancient Near East.
I’m sure you already know this, but Bishop Pillai shouldn’t be considered a final authority on the historical-cultural idiosyncrasies of the ancient Near East.
Hey, what's a couple thousand year gap between cultures got to do with anything?
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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skyrider
Exactly. Progress to a fuller comprehension of the topic at hand.
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skyrider
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skyrider
Mike,
Since you asserted wierwille's new man nature was evident and he did great things when he was "in fellowship with God"..... I would like some examples of this. Can you elaborate?
If it was SO EVIDENT..... then you must have DOZENS of examples.
Thanks for your reply.
~~~~~~~
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Charity
This last paragraph looks promising. No way to know how it will be explained until the next installment is revealed. Fingers crossed.
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Charity
The whole part of the article beginning with 1 Timothy 2:5 is inaccurate. You cannot relate both the daysman analogy and this verse to a believer breaking fellowship with God.
First, 1 Timothy 2:5 is quoted.
Next, the title of this part of the article is “He is Our Mediator.”
Then comes the analogy of the daysman. Immediately after ending this analogy, the next sentence connects it to our relationship with God by using the word “this.”
Quote: “This is tremendously revealing when applied to Jesus Christ, as he can personally relate to every situation that would cause a believer to break fellowship with God.”
A few sentences later as well as in the last paragraph, it reverts back to “man” and men” which was included in the 1 Timothy verse.
Quote: That is why calling Jesus Christ a daysman, a mediator, between sinful man and God is so meaningful.
Quote: “This relationship of daysman emphasizes the tenderness, the concern and the love involved between God, Jesus Christ and men.”
Note: Men - not the believer is the context of 1 Timothy 2:5 is below.
1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
I believe that the truth of this verse (which appears at the beginning of this piece of the article) is being used out of context to support the inaccurate teaching that Jesus Christ is our mediator. He is our Lord and Savior and our Redeemer.
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Charity
When referring to 1 John 2:1-2, the article says, "The office that the ascended Christ fulfills in this case is again dealing with forgiveness and reconciliation of the sinner and God similar to that of the daysman."
However, there is no mention of reconciliation in this verse. We were reconciled to God when we were born again. This verse is about Jesus Christ being our advocate for the sins believers commit after being reconciled to God.
The article also says, "Jesus Christ not only brings the sinner and God back together in a tender, loving, heart manner; but this reconciliation is legally sound."
This sentence implies that the “tender, loving” relationship between sinner and God broke off because of the sin and that Jesus Christ, our advocate, was able to bring it back to us. Yet Romans 8:35-37 says that nothing will separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. It is the believer who sins who is being brought back to God and his never-ending love through our advocate Jesus Christ.
The differences are subtle but I feel they leave the wrong image in our minds concerning our relationship with God.
Verse 9 of this same chapter also adds, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
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Bolshevik
A Fog is like a low elevation cloud.
When VPW croaked he left a power vacuum. So then everyone was in a Fog.
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Mike
It's mostly in the written works, but recorded teachings and personal appearances helped also. My life was benefited greatly; still is.
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skyrider
Another evasive answer, at best.
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Mike
Here is the last installment:
Gift Ministries.
In order for the Church to function as a whole, however, there are certain gifts of grace that it needs, in addition to the power of the gift of holy spirit in each member. These gifts of grace also were not available until Christ ascended.
They are called gift ministries.
Ephesians 4:8, 11: Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.
The reason and functions of these gifts of grace are given in the following verses.
Ephesians 4:12, 14, 15:
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they He in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
How magnificent is the ascension! Not only do we have the power of holy spirit, the “comforter” from God because of it, but also we are of the Body of Christ, the Church of Grace, and we know how to operate the power we have been given. Along with it, we have the gift ministries for the perfecting of the saints and the building up of the Body of Christ. All of this is available because of the ascension.
Had the ascension not occurred, there would still be many benefits to believers as the result of the life, death and resurrection of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ. Among these are newness of life, righteousness, justification, freedom from the bondage of sin and the consequences of sin. These benefits were not new with the resurrection of Christ. Adam and Eve enjoyed them before their disobedience. The purpose of Jesus Christ, as revealed in the Old Testament, was to undo the consequences of that disobedience and to regain these benefits for believers. He accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
God, however, had a greater purpose in mind for His only begotten son. He kept that greater purpose hidden until He revealed it to the Apostle Paul. This is the great mystery. It is in the ascension and seated position of Jesus Christ that God’s “riches of the glory of this mystery’’ (Colossians 1:27) could be made known.
Because Christ was raised through the heavenlies, he is at God’s right hand. Because he is seated there, our redemption is complete. Because he is above all the power of the Adversary, we can claim victory in every dimension of our lives with our power of attorney in the name of Jesus Christ. We are seated with him (Ephesians 2:6) and complete in him (Colossians 2:10). Captivity is led captive and he works as our daysman and advocate. Because he is up “on high,” we take his place down here with the power of holy spirit that he sent forth. We are perfected as spiritual individuals and built up collectively as a body by the gift ministries which he gave to the Church. We now live as members of his Body (and not as separate units), with Christ as the head because he ascended to the headship of the Church. This Church of the Body forms the habitation of God where God has taken up residence in Christ in us. That is God’s greater purpose which He kept hidden from before the foundations of the world.
As we claim these truths and walk in this light, we partake of the allegorical banquet that is the more abundant life. By God’s providence, we were ushered in and seated for the main course. Our first taste of the rightly-divided Word of God was a morsel of that new kind of nourishment not mentioned in the Old Testament menu. It is our privilege to enjoy this banquet of life completely paid for by the death, resurrection and ascension of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ.
[end]
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Charity
Hi Raf, I read the answer OldSkool gave later on in this thread to your question in the above post. When I went back to check my post to you on page 77, I saw I had omitted this question in my list of things you had said about the Bible. Your question was very much on topic and I should have included it in the list. This was not fair of me to have done this and I apologize.
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Bolshevik
The question he asks accepts the introductory reasoning of VPW, the worship of the Bible. Which he takes from protestants.
There's a long history there, with guys like Martin Luther breaking with the "authors" of the Bible, the Catholic Church.
AFAIK, tradition and scripture go hand in hand. As do Faith and Science.
Otherwise, we dance around the question of where's Waldo?
Edited by BolshevikIn spiral agacent
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So_crates
So you're saying Saint Vic was most in fellowship when he was being a phony, being hypocritical, and when he was ripping off other people's work. SMH.
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waysider
You: "That was a great movie."
Me: "What did you like about it?"
You: "Oh, you know, stuff".
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Charity
Just a couple more thoughts about this article.
1. IMO, the banquet analogy in the first two paragraphs, though overplayed, made some good points about the accomplishments Jesus.
2. The third paragraph makes the statement about the great mystery, “It is this course that you and I partake of today — a completely new food made available by the ascension and exalted position of our advocate and mediator, Jesus Christ.”
This seems to tie in with the “Old Testament and Gospels are for our learning but the Epistles are written to us” doctrine.
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skyrider
Exactly
~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike: "When he was in fellowship he did great things for us. THAT is what I prefer to focus on and magnify."
Me: "When was wierwille "in fellowship?" When was wierwille's "new man nature" evident?"
Mike: "It's mostly in the written works, but recorded teachings and personal appearances helped also."
TRANSLATION: Mike makes these grandiose declarations about wierwille's life and "greatness"..... but then gives evasive replies to back up wierwille's new man nature in Christ. This evasiveness has all the hallmarks of a snake oil representative selling a product from a snake oil company. Always barking bold assertions of wierwille's wares, but only in the shadowy form of generalities. Pfffttt.
.
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T-Bone
WordWolf’s post alerted me to the problem – good catch WordWolf!
I read the whole chapter of Job 9 (I copied it further below from NIV) and realized there are a few issues with that Way Mag article – one of the most glaring is the attack on the Trinity...so first here is the Wag Mag article from Mike's post:
It is, if we use God’s Word to enlighten our imaginations with accurate “Word pictures.”
I Timothy 2:5:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
He Is Our Mediator.
This is a very enlightening verse. First of all it tells us that Christ Jesus is a man and that God is one God (not three). Jesus Christ could not, therefore, be God. A mediator is a “go-between,” one who stands in the middle and communicates or deals with each party. More technically, a mediator is “one who mediates for peace and unites parties at variance.” The Greek word for mediator, mesites, does not occur in profane Greek since they had no higher word than that meaning arbitrator. In the Septuagint, this word mesites occurs only in Job 9:33 where it is translated “daysman.” This translation sheds tremendous light on the role of the ascended Christ, in view of the Eastern culture of the daysman.
A daysman in Eastern culture was literally a “great soul” in a town or village. He was unappointed and he was not elected but he was a man of great wisdom, well versed in the Scriptures, a man who rose up to reconcile the wrong-doer to the wronged. Jesus Christ acts to reconcile mankind back to God. He is our mediator, our daysman.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
Right off the bat I have a problem with the writer saying Jesus Christ is a man. Even if one wants to ignore the hybrid concept alluded to in the Bible that Jesus was both human and divine - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us John 1:14 there is still the ‘transformation’ of the resurrected Christ – I mean technically he is no longer a male species of humankind. He is something way beyond that. Seriously! How do you classify the resurrected Christ with his new body on this chart:
Why do we have to hold to a scientifically accurate interpretation of I Timothy 2:5, when it is simply talking about the role of a mediator?
I think for many something that cemented wierwille’s anti-Trinitarian stance was embracing his absolutist thinking . In other words, Jesus Christ is either a man or he is God. There’s no in-between – no other options. I’ve been curious enough to read some captivating books – scholarly works – besides systematic theologies – that are written from a Trinitarian viewpoint, to realize wierwille’s anti-Trinitarian arguments are nothing more than a mischaracterization of the Trinity – probably something closer to a caricature that exaggerates the most striking feature of the Godhead – the divine.
Maybe it’s a similar issue to wierwille’s lack of understanding that transcendence and immanence are both divine features of God and Jesus Christ. That does not make them identical. Even speaking relationship-wise we read in Scripture the Father sends the Son…Jesus said the Father is greater than I… one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all Ephesians 4:6 ... …then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all I Corinthians 15:28
even the motif of father and son alone resonates with dads and kids… …in John 14, 15 and 16 we observe the quadruple principle – the Father > the Son > the Holy Spirit > you…but should we take that quadruple principle so literally in such a linear fashion…maybe Jesus was dumbing it down for beings trapped in a space-time continuum. We think a process must start somewhere in space and time. Jesus Christ can’t really be at the right hand of God in heaven and yet be with us always as head of the church – at the same time - can he? How can he do that?
I’m not saying I understand it or can explain it – I just feel the concept of the Trinity holds a lot more promise of unraveling the relevant biblical data – inspiring us to think bigger about God / Jesus Christ and how all this relates to finite beings.
~ ~ ~ ~
Now if you read all of Job 9 in NIV, it is obviously speaking of someone who has a lot more power and authority than any human.:
Then Job replied:
2“Indeed, I know that this is true.
But how can mere mortals prove their innocence before God?
3Though they wished to dispute with him,
they could not answer him one time out of a thousand.
4His wisdom is profound, his power is vast.
Who has resisted him and come out unscathed?
5He moves mountains without their knowing it
and overturns them in his anger.
6He shakes the earth from its place
and makes its pillars tremble.
7He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;
he seals off the light of the stars.
8He alone stretches out the heavens
and treads on the waves of the sea.
9He is the Maker of the Bear a and Orion,
the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
10He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
11When he passes me, I cannot see him;
when he goes by, I cannot perceive him.
12If he snatches away, who can stop him?
Who can say to him, ‘What are you doing?’
13God does not restrain his anger;
even the cohorts of Rahab cowered at his feet.
14“How then can I dispute with him?
How can I find words to argue with him?
15Though I were innocent, I could not answer him;
I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
16Even if I summoned him and he responded,
I do not believe he would give me a hearing.
17He would crush me with a storm
and multiply my wounds for no reason.
18He would not let me catch my breath
but would overwhelm me with misery.
19If it is a matter of strength, he is mighty!
And if it is a matter of justice, who can challenge him b ?
20Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me;
if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
21“Although I am blameless,
I have no concern for myself;
I despise my own life.
22It is all the same; that is why I say,
‘He destroys both the blameless and the wicked.’
23When a scourge brings sudden death,
he mocks the despair of the innocent.
24When a land falls into the hands of the wicked,
he blindfolds its judges.
If it is not he, then who is it?
25“My days are swifter than a runner;
they fly away without a glimpse of joy.
26They skim past like boats of papyrus,
like eagles swooping down on their prey.
27If I say, ‘I will forget my complaint,
I will change my expression, and smile,’
28I still dread all my sufferings,
for I know you will not hold me innocent.
29Since I am already found guilty,
why should I struggle in vain?
30Even if I washed myself with soap
and my hands with cleansing powder,
31you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.
32“He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.
33If only there were someone to mediate between us,
someone to bring us together,
34someone to remove God’s rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.
35Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.
On page 837 of NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible, Hardcover: Craig Keener, John Walton: 9780310431589 - Christianbook.com the authors comment on verse 33
9:33 someone to mediate between us. In the ancient Near East, people sometimes would ask for their personal gods to mediate on their behalf in the divine council. At other times, gods are seen as judges who mediate a person’s situations. Arbitration was also carried out in human courts in a variety of ways. One means of mediation was carried out by someone in the family acting on a person’s behalf.
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
The description of a mediator in the Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible (or CBSB) differs significantly from the explanation of daysman in Way Mag article (or WM) in a few ways. CBSB says mediator refers to a popular culturalism of appealing to a deity as a negotiator as well as human courtroom adaptations and even notes a family member working as a representative. Whereas WM limits daysman as to someone of intellectual / moral greatness prominent in the community...I understand Job 9:33 as an appeal to someone who is more than human to be a mediator between God and us.
Edited by T-Bonethe law firm of Editors, Mediators, Arbitrators, Daysman, & T-Bone "we will prosecute all typos to the full extent of the laws of grammar...we deal in all matters of sin with syntax"
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Nathan_Jr
So, the crucifixion pays for “old man” sins and the daysman makes a plea for “new man” sins?
But why do we need a daysman to make a plea deal when, if we act in the love of God, we can do as we fool well please?
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Bolshevik
By his stripes we are healed.
Next time you are sick, simply choose not to be.
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Charity
To those interested, here is a website https://thewaymagazine.com/the-daysman/ showing an article about the daysman posted on May 27, 2020 by the Way. At the bottom of the article, it says ,"This is a reprint from the March/April 2009 issue of The Way Magazine."
It's very similar to the article Mike posted including the Job and 1 Timothy verses but adds a couple extra verses as well. This one however gives credit to how Bishop Pillai explains the daysman in his book, "Light through an Eastern Window" where the other one didn't.
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OldSkool
wierwille's concept of in/out of fellowship are comical. It was as if you could do whatever you wanted as long as your believing wasnt compromised and you were acting out of love. It's almost like you could be in fellowship, and that would equate to standing under a flood light, and then be out of fellowhip, and that would equate to standing out of the floodlight in the dark. What kind of non-sensical garbage is that...because meanwhile the sinful and destructive behavior never stopped with wierwille. It didn't stop with martindale. It didnt stop with rosalile because she covered it all up, spending vast sums of donations on lawyer fees and out of court settlements. Bottom line is when you ask for forgiveness it's accompanied by the fruits meet for repentance, as John The Baptist stated. In other words, the sinful actions stop and there is a corresponding change of heart that led to the action in the first place so the action isn't repeated. Ive never come across any indication of that sort of thing with wierwille...check this..
wierwille taught martindale to be a sexual predator. Theoretically, had wierwille truly repented his repentance would have been followed with him addressing the ministry (or something similar) appropriately so they no longer think his former sinful ways are justifiabally correct. Maybe mike can find proof of wierwille doint this sort of thing in one of his files, but Ive never seen any indication of a change from any of the top honchos...wierwille, martindale, rosalie who was involved never publicly repented...etc.
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Charity
This is all knowledge that's been taught for decades. It's good knowledge, but having 2-way communications between the Head (Christ) and his members (us) as a human body does and the book of Acts reveals, is not included. I guess it's not one of the things Jesus Christ is doing up there.
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Nathan_Jr
I’m sure you already know this, but Bishop Pillai shouldn’t be considered a final authority on the historical-cultural idiosyncrasies of the ancient Near East.
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waysider
Hey, what's a couple thousand year gap between cultures got to do with anything?
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