The great principle is garbage. In the following verses that you still refuse to respond to, well besides saying that God deceived the Apostles with a hologram of Jesus, there is ample room to prove the great principle. And you will have to deal with the fact that there are visions and Angelic spirit beings communicating with flesh and blood people who had not yet been born again.
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are inblue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father,and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
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There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
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Continuing onwards: 2/1
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Here we see that Paul received his ministry FROM Jesus Christ and not directly from God, sidestepping Jesus as absent.
Acts 22:6-11
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
In Acts 22:9 we see that those with Paul heard not the voice but saw the light that shone around them. Acts 9:7 says his companions heard a voice but saw no man. Acts 22:9 doesnt contradict Acts 9:7 but gives more insight into Paul's conversation with the non-absent Christ.
God's Word Translation:
Acts 22:9
"The men who were with me saw the light but didn't understand what the person who was speaking to me said. Perhaps they didnt understand Hebrew.
So, again we see that Jesus Christ interacted directly with Paul and his prescence was known by Paul's travel companions but they did not understand what was said to Paul. Interesting.
Acts 22:13-15
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:13-15 we see again another few tidbits added into the record of Acts 9 where Ananias ministered to Paul at Jesus direct request. Here we see that God chose Paul. This again shows that Jesus and God are one in will and purpose. The Lord Jesus does what God wants done to the letter, but it is Christ performing the various functions and requests in his ascended, exalted, Lordship.
Acts 22:16-21
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
17And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
In Acts 22:17-21 we see that Jesus gives Paul yet another vision and a conversational one at that. Jesus Christ is directing Paul, showing once again that Christ directly controls the affairs of the Church according to God's will and at times that direction may happen through direct communication with Christ.
Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.”
Here Jesus Christ stood by Paul, whether in a vision, or literally I dont know. But either way once again we see the intimate fellowship and encouragement. It;s likely that Paul realised how bad he effed up and the Lord knew he needed to be strengthned. Where in scripture does it ever say that Jesus Christ cannot appear to someone physically on earth as God directs?
Acts 26:12-18
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
So here we have yet another record of what happened in Acts 9 where the Lord appeared unto Saul. Perhaps his travel companions did not understand Hebrew and that's why they didnt understand what Jesus said but heard the voice just the same.
Acts 27:21-25
But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Here we see an Angel of God to tell Paul that they would all survive but lose the ship. It state that God has given you all that sail with you. God in Christ working yet once again. Our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son.
----- Ill get into the Epistles next in this same post.
Anyone ever taken a close look at the graphic for the GP?
It has 3 thin lines as the border in the upper triangle. Does that have any significance? I have no idea. It does, however, cause me to suspect that VPW may have *lifted* this graphic from a trinitarian, without fully realizing the nuances the originator was trying to opine.
Anyone ever taken a close look at the graphic for the GP?
It has 3 thin lines as the border in the upper triangle. Does that have any significance? I have no idea. It does, however, cause me to suspect that VPW may have *lifted* this graphic from a trinitarian, without fully realizing the nuances the originator was trying to opine.
That's interesting to say the least.
They sure had some cheesy graphics...Martindale in his classes had an athlete looking dude in rainbow colors with each color representing a manifestation of h.s....yes he repeated a couple colors...lol
Anyone ever taken a close look at the graphic for the GP?
It has 3 thin lines as the border in the upper triangle. Does that have any significance? I have no idea. It does, however, cause me to suspect that VPW may have *lifted* this graphic from a trinitarian, without fully realizing the nuances the originator was trying to opine.
on mentioning the graphic - I have a vague memory of seeing wierwille in a class standing in front of a chart pointing out the obvious- the triangle and saying something like “we do believe in the Trinity - it’s God in Christ in you.”
I feel the Pauline epistles reveal the mystery that was kept secret since the world began. Inside that mystery is the new creation of Christ in you. The epistles show the inner man, they are where we see our true selves mirrored in scripture. Christ in you was never meant to be a lever of power to get stuff, or to replace Christ (obviously Im open to actual debate on all of this) although it's pretty clear in scripture that those in the first century walked as Christ walked: with great power! Also, Christ in you is the new nature, a new creation, a down payment that we will be fully realized in the future. The new nature gives us power over the old man as the sin nature is contrasted in Romans 7 vs Romans 8 (oversimplified illustration because it's contrasted elsewhere too). The spirit also gives us a connection to God/Christ as well, though I still refute the idea that God needed to give holy spirit so he can communicate with flesh and blood. Just a few thoughts...more later.
Oh....the epistles also show us how to walk in the new nature and many other things. Peace!
Thanks OldSkool for pointing out from the word what it means to have Christ in us. Along with what you shared, God uses the word riches to describe the wealth of glorious truths involved in having Christ in us. Col 1:27 “To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the gloriousriches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
Reflecting on this brought to mind what I wrote in a previous post how ‘Christ in you…falls flat.’ My saying this tarnished the glory of having Christ in you in a way that I did not intend.
The point I was trying to make is that in order to be transformed into becoming more like Christ, we need to renew our minds not only to the scriptures that describe the nature of Christ being inusbut also to the scriptures that teaches Christ living in us.Gal 2:20 says, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.”That verb “lives” is in the active voice. I learned of the former when I was in twi, but for me now, it's the learning of the latter that is making the difference in my life.
What does it mean that Christ lives in us? One way is to see that just as Jesus interacted with his apostles when he lived with them (shown in the Gospels), he also interacts with us now because lives in us (shown in the Epistles). It's a two-way relationship and fellowship they shared with each other.
The real…actual…immanent Christ may very well be present - but if His authority and directives are not acknowledged - for all practical purposes one could consider Him absent.
What you said above has become my benchmark since coming to GSC. Googles definition of benchmark is " a standard or point of reference against which things may be compared or assessed. Now I attempt to look for Jesus' authority and directives in everything I read in the Bible and what I read on here. It's what's absent in knowing about Jesus only in my mind. It's what's present in knowing Jesus both from the scriptures and from his spirit living in me.
Here ya go Mike. I added some more verses that you will likely refuse to answer to..tsk tsk. Dont fret, Im not really posting it for you but as a survey of various books in the New Testament that show Jesus Christ isnt absent but directly interacts with those in the body of Christ at times, and most definately directs the affairs of his Church in addition to being our interscessor, etc. Jesus Christ is quite busy but never absent in his duties and function which God Almighty has elevated him.
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are inblue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father,and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
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Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
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Continuing onwards: 2/1
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Here we see that Paul received his ministry FROM Jesus Christ and not directly from God, sidestepping Jesus as absent.
Acts 22:6-11
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
In Acts 22:9 we see that those with Paul heard not the voice but saw the light that shone around them. Acts 9:7 says his companions heard a voice but saw no man. Acts 22:9 doesnt contradict Acts 9:7 but gives more insight into Paul's conversation with the non-absent Christ.
God's Word Translation:
Acts 22:9
"The men who were with me saw the light but didn't understand what the person who was speaking to me said. Perhaps they didnt understand Hebrew.
So, again we see that Jesus Christ interacted directly with Paul and his prescence was known by Paul's travel companions but they did not understand what was said to Paul. Interesting.
Acts 22:13-15
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:13-15 we see again another few tidbits added into the record of Acts 9 where Ananias ministered to Paul at Jesus direct request. Here we see that God chose Paul. This again shows that Jesus and God are one in will and purpose. The Lord Jesus does what God wants done to the letter, but it is Christ performing the various functions and requests in his ascended, exalted, Lordship.
Acts 22:16-21
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
17And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
In Acts 22:17-21 we see that Jesus gives Paul yet another vision and a conversational one at that. Jesus Christ is directing Paul, showing once again that Christ directly controls the affairs of the Church according to God's will and at times that direction may happen through direct communication with Christ.
Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.”
Here Jesus Christ stood by Paul, whether in a vision, or literally I dont know. But either way once again we see the intimate fellowship and encouragement. It;s likely that Paul realised how bad he effed up and the Lord knew he needed to be strengthned. Where in scripture does it ever say that Jesus Christ cannot appear to someone physically on earth as God directs?
Acts 26:12-18
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
So here we have yet another record of what happened in Acts 9 where the Lord appeared unto Saul. Perhaps his travel companions did not understand Hebrew and that's why they didnt understand what Jesus said but heard the voice just the same.
Acts 27:21-25
But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Here we see an Angel of God to tell Paul that they would all survive but lose the ship. It state that God has given you all that sail with you. God in Christ working yet once again. Our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son.
----- Ill get into the Epistles next in this same post.
on mentioning the graphic - I have a vague memory of seeing wierwille in a class standing in front of a chart pointing out the obvious- the triangle and saying something like “we do believe in the Trinity - it’s God in Christ in you.
But it's not just that a triangle has 3 sides. If you look at it closely, each side has 3 border lines.
In what ways? Well, physical presence, but it would be silly to think that is all. He is also absent in his authority. If you and I have a dispute in that we think he means, we cannot go to him to resolve the dispute. So how do we resolve it? By spirit? Sure, except my spirit tells me I'm right and your spirit tells you that you're right, so how is the third person, who is neither you nor I, able to ascertain who is correctly interpreting the will of God in Christ?
Easy. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
See, that's the issue. When you list the ways in which Christ remains present, none are objective. All depend on the person interpreting his presence. And if two people disagree and one of them is wrong, the only way to know that is... The Word.
Any Christ who is inconsistent with his Word is QED inaccurate.
...
"God limits himself..."
I find that statement to be accurate in the sense that God limits himself according to the requirements of the plot of the story being told by the author. :)
In what ways? Well, physical presence, but it would be silly to think that is all. He is also absent in his authority. If you and I have a dispute in that we think he means, we cannot go to him to resolve the dispute. So how do we resolve it? By spirit? Sure, except my spirit tells me I'm right and your spirit tells you that you're right, so how is the third person, who is neither you nor I, able to ascertain who is correctly interpreting the will of God in Christ?
Easy. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
See, that's the issue. When you list the ways in which Christ remains present, none are objective. All depend on the person interpreting his presence. And if two people disagree and one of them is wrong, the only way to know that is... The Word.
Any Christ who is inconsistent with his Word is QED inaccurate.
...
"God limits himself..."
I find that statement to be accurate in the sense that God limits himself according to the requirements of the plot of the story being told by the author. :)
Im assuming you likely put no credence in scripture at this point?
To be clear, Im not swooping by for some type of wrongly assumed moral authority to say anything in relation to your beliefs.
Im gonna chew on what you posted for a while and come back around a little later. Thanks for your perspective!
Now here is the difference. You agree with wierwille on this point, and thats cool because you give reasoned answers for your position and not a line of circular reasoning that ends with "its this way because wierwille said its this way." For that I am thankful! Disagreement in matters such as these can be a fun way to see other perspectives and such...anywho.
In what ways? Well, physical presence, but it would be silly to think that is all. He is also absent in his authority. If you and I have a dispute in that we think he means, we cannot go to him to resolve the dispute. So how do we resolve it? By spirit? Sure, except my spirit tells me I'm right and your spirit tells you that you're right, so how is the third person, who is neither you nor I, able to ascertain who is correctly interpreting the will of God in Christ?
Easy. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
See, that's the issue. When you list the ways in which Christ remains present, none are objective. All depend on the person interpreting his presence. And if two people disagree and one of them is wrong, the only way to know that is... The Word.
Any Christ who is inconsistent with his Word is QED inaccurate.
...
"God limits himself..."
I find that statement to be accurate in the sense that God limits himself according to the requirements of the plot of the story being told by the author. :)
The Word = Jesus Christ
So Jesus Christ takes the place of Jesus Christ? Quite the switcharoo
"God limits himself..."
I find that statement to be accurate in the sense that God limits himself according to the requirements of the plot of the story being told by the author. :)
Could we say more clearly, simply:
The writer/author/storyteller limits God to fit into the plot of the story.
In what ways? Well, physical presence, but it would be silly to think that is all. He is also absent in his authority. If you and I have a dispute in that we think he means, we cannot go to him to resolve the dispute. So how do we resolve it? By spirit? Sure, except my spirit tells me I'm right and your spirit tells you that you're right, so how is the third person, who is neither you nor I, able to ascertain who is correctly interpreting the will of God in Christ?
Easy. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
See, that's the issue. When you list the ways in which Christ remains present, none are objective. All depend on the person interpreting his presence. And if two people disagree and one of them is wrong, the only way to know that is... The Word.
Any Christ who is inconsistent with his Word is QED inaccurate.
...
"God limits himself..."
I find that statement to be accurate in the sense that God limits himself according to the requirements of the plot of the story being told by the author. :)
Your argument is that The Word, by which you mean a book, is objective. And people can't agree unless something objective exists?
I dont agree with this statement. I dont agree that Christ is absent. We used a goofy illustration of Christ being present/absent in reporting for class where I can readily admit Christ is not physically present, walking around in sandals and tunic on earth the way he was in the gospels. But I also followed up by saying that he has been changed and ascended and that ascended and absent arent synonamous. The problem you guys are having is you cant physically see him so he must be absent.
I feel scripture points to a present, yet invisible Christ. If he is truly absent the we would be awaiting his return, and I understand some use that language, but scripture teaches we are awaiting his appearing. That makes sense when you check the records in the gospes where he disappeared out of people's sight. So a lot of this argument will depend on if you consider the Bible a true account on the subject, because without it we all sound crazy discussing any of this. The Bible directs us to a present Christ, one who is head of his Body. Can a living body have an absent head?
“I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matt. 28:20). Jesus spoke those words to his followers after his resurrection and shortly before his ascension. He didnt say I am absent and will return later so read some Bible verses in the meantime.
In what ways? Well, physical presence, but it would be silly to think that is all. He is also absent in his authority. If you and I have a dispute in that we think he means, we cannot go to him to resolve the dispute. So how do we resolve it? By spirit? Sure, except my spirit tells me I'm right and your spirit tells you that you're right, so how is the third person, who is neither you nor I, able to ascertain who is correctly interpreting the will of God in Christ?
Easy. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
See, that's the issue. When you list the ways in which Christ remains present, none are objective. All depend on the person interpreting his presence. And if two people disagree and one of them is wrong, the only way to know that is... The Word.
Any Christ who is inconsistent with his Word is QED inaccurate.
...
"God limits himself..."
I find that statement to be accurate in the sense that God limits himself according to the requirements of the plot of the story being told by the author. :)
OldsKool, I check in here to see if anything new or significant has been posted, but it looks like nothing here but a doubling back to defy common sense and logic of words.
AGAIN, I am stunned to see after all my attempts to nail the common sense angle, and after all the jeering and mocking my posts as a mushbrain nonsense,
AGAIN we see Raf coming in with a clear reality check.
AGAIN I see the shock posters have from running into Raf's logic wall.
AGAIN I see the humbled regrouping to somehow salvage the complaint that the Absent Christ teaching in the class ruined us all.
Please, let me know, OIdSkool, if anything new appears here.
*/*/*/*
I feel we were given an excellent foundation to build on. With that foundation we were responsible, as individuals, to build THE PROPER scripture-based relationship with Christ while we wait for his "return," which means personal presence.
*/*/*/*
First Christ was SENT.
Next Christ was ABSENT.
Soon we can say he was SENT again.
I'm looking at the English here indicating sent and absent are related. Anyone care to check the ancient languages on this simple observation?
OldsKool, I check in here to see if anything new or significant has been posted, but it looks like nothing here but a doubling back to defy common sense and logic of words.
AGAIN, I am stunned to see after all my attempts to nail the common sense angle, and after all the jeering and mocking my posts as a mushbrain nonsense,
AGAIN we see Raf coming in with a clear reality check.
AGAIN I see the shock posters have from running into Raf's logic wall.
AGAIN I see the humbled regrouping to somehow salvage the complaint that the Absent Christ teaching in the class ruined us all.
Please, let me know, OIdSkool, if anything new appears here.
*/*/*/*
I feel we were given an excellent foundation to build on. With that foundation we were responsible, as individuals, to build THE PROPER scripture-based relationship with Christ while we wait for his "return," which means personal presence.
*/*/*/*
First Christ was SENT.
Next Christ was ABSENT.
Soon we can say he was SENT again.
I'm looking at the English here indicating sent and absent are related. Anyone care to check the ancient languages on this simple observation?
You once again provide nothing of substance. Prove me wrong from the verses I listed....you can't.
Quit name dropping Raf...it's quite pathetic...really....
You notice how on Rafs post he provided reasons and logical deductions in his argument? Since your on his jock go ahead and try and emulate how he reasons....cause youve missed that entire boat...all your trying to do is stifle conversation because you disagree...
I'm looking at the English here indicating sent and absent are related.
Hey, yo, Merriam-webster-mike...HOW are sent and absent related? Can u show the etymology of those words or how the relation works in some way using something besides your unqualified opinion?
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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OldSkool
your repeating the same baseless garbage from thread to thread.
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OldSkool
The great principle is garbage. In the following verses that you still refuse to respond to, well besides saying that God deceived the Apostles with a hologram of Jesus, there is ample room to prove the great principle. And you will have to deal with the fact that there are visions and Angelic spirit beings communicating with flesh and blood people who had not yet been born again.
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are in blue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
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Continuing onwards: 2/1
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Here we see that Paul received his ministry FROM Jesus Christ and not directly from God, sidestepping Jesus as absent.
Acts 22:6-11
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
In Acts 22:9 we see that those with Paul heard not the voice but saw the light that shone around them. Acts 9:7 says his companions heard a voice but saw no man. Acts 22:9 doesnt contradict Acts 9:7 but gives more insight into Paul's conversation with the non-absent Christ.
God's Word Translation:
Acts 22:9
"The men who were with me saw the light but didn't understand what the person who was speaking to me said. Perhaps they didnt understand Hebrew.
So, again we see that Jesus Christ interacted directly with Paul and his prescence was known by Paul's travel companions but they did not understand what was said to Paul. Interesting.
Acts 22:13-15
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:13-15 we see again another few tidbits added into the record of Acts 9 where Ananias ministered to Paul at Jesus direct request. Here we see that God chose Paul. This again shows that Jesus and God are one in will and purpose. The Lord Jesus does what God wants done to the letter, but it is Christ performing the various functions and requests in his ascended, exalted, Lordship.
Acts 22:16-21
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
17And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
In Acts 22:17-21 we see that Jesus gives Paul yet another vision and a conversational one at that. Jesus Christ is directing Paul, showing once again that Christ directly controls the affairs of the Church according to God's will and at times that direction may happen through direct communication with Christ.
Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.”
Here Jesus Christ stood by Paul, whether in a vision, or literally I dont know. But either way once again we see the intimate fellowship and encouragement. It;s likely that Paul realised how bad he effed up and the Lord knew he needed to be strengthned. Where in scripture does it ever say that Jesus Christ cannot appear to someone physically on earth as God directs?
Acts 26:12-18
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
So here we have yet another record of what happened in Acts 9 where the Lord appeared unto Saul. Perhaps his travel companions did not understand Hebrew and that's why they didnt understand what Jesus said but heard the voice just the same.
Acts 27:21-25
But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Here we see an Angel of God to tell Paul that they would all survive but lose the ship. It state that God has given you all that sail with you. God in Christ working yet once again. Our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son.
----- Ill get into the Epistles next in this same post.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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waysider
Anyone ever taken a close look at the graphic for the GP?
It has 3 thin lines as the border in the upper triangle. Does that have any significance? I have no idea. It does, however, cause me to suspect that VPW may have *lifted* this graphic from a trinitarian, without fully realizing the nuances the originator was trying to opine.
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OldSkool
That's interesting to say the least.
They sure had some cheesy graphics...Martindale in his classes had an athlete looking dude in rainbow colors with each color representing a manifestation of h.s....yes he repeated a couple colors...lol
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T-Bone
on mentioning the graphic - I have a vague memory of seeing wierwille in a class standing in front of a chart pointing out the obvious- the triangle and saying something like “we do believe in the Trinity - it’s God in Christ in you.”
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Charity
Thanks OldSkool for pointing out from the word what it means to have Christ in us. Along with what you shared, God uses the word riches to describe the wealth of glorious truths involved in having Christ in us. Col 1:27 “To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”
Reflecting on this brought to mind what I wrote in a previous post how ‘Christ in you…falls flat.’ My saying this tarnished the glory of having Christ in you in a way that I did not intend.
The point I was trying to make is that in order to be transformed into becoming more like Christ, we need to renew our minds not only to the scriptures that describe the nature of Christ being in us but also to the scriptures that teaches Christ living in us. Gal 2:20 says, I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.” That verb “lives” is in the active voice. I learned of the former when I was in twi, but for me now, it's the learning of the latter that is making the difference in my life.
What does it mean that Christ lives in us? One way is to see that just as Jesus interacted with his apostles when he lived with them (shown in the Gospels), he also interacts with us now because lives in us (shown in the Epistles). It's a two-way relationship and fellowship they shared with each other.
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Charity
What you said above has become my benchmark since coming to GSC. Googles definition of benchmark is " a standard or point of reference against which things may be compared or assessed. Now I attempt to look for Jesus' authority and directives in everything I read in the Bible and what I read on here. It's what's absent in knowing about Jesus only in my mind. It's what's present in knowing Jesus both from the scriptures and from his spirit living in me.
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OldSkool
Here ya go Mike. I added some more verses that you will likely refuse to answer to..tsk tsk. Dont fret, Im not really posting it for you but as a survey of various books in the New Testament that show Jesus Christ isnt absent but directly interacts with those in the body of Christ at times, and most definately directs the affairs of his Church in addition to being our interscessor, etc. Jesus Christ is quite busy but never absent in his duties and function which God Almighty has elevated him.
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are in blue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 2/1
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Here we see that Paul received his ministry FROM Jesus Christ and not directly from God, sidestepping Jesus as absent.
Acts 22:6-11
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
In Acts 22:9 we see that those with Paul heard not the voice but saw the light that shone around them. Acts 9:7 says his companions heard a voice but saw no man. Acts 22:9 doesnt contradict Acts 9:7 but gives more insight into Paul's conversation with the non-absent Christ.
God's Word Translation:
Acts 22:9
"The men who were with me saw the light but didn't understand what the person who was speaking to me said. Perhaps they didnt understand Hebrew.
So, again we see that Jesus Christ interacted directly with Paul and his prescence was known by Paul's travel companions but they did not understand what was said to Paul. Interesting.
Acts 22:13-15
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Acts 22:13-15 we see again another few tidbits added into the record of Acts 9 where Ananias ministered to Paul at Jesus direct request. Here we see that God chose Paul. This again shows that Jesus and God are one in will and purpose. The Lord Jesus does what God wants done to the letter, but it is Christ performing the various functions and requests in his ascended, exalted, Lordship.
Acts 22:16-21
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
17And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
19And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
20And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
21And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
In Acts 22:17-21 we see that Jesus gives Paul yet another vision and a conversational one at that. Jesus Christ is directing Paul, showing once again that Christ directly controls the affairs of the Church according to God's will and at times that direction may happen through direct communication with Christ.
Acts 23:11
And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.”
Here Jesus Christ stood by Paul, whether in a vision, or literally I dont know. But either way once again we see the intimate fellowship and encouragement. It;s likely that Paul realised how bad he effed up and the Lord knew he needed to be strengthned. Where in scripture does it ever say that Jesus Christ cannot appear to someone physically on earth as God directs?
Acts 26:12-18
12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
So here we have yet another record of what happened in Acts 9 where the Lord appeared unto Saul. Perhaps his travel companions did not understand Hebrew and that's why they didnt understand what Jesus said but heard the voice just the same.
Acts 27:21-25
But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Here we see an Angel of God to tell Paul that they would all survive but lose the ship. It state that God has given you all that sail with you. God in Christ working yet once again. Our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son.
----- Ill get into the Epistles next in this same post.
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waysider
But it's not just that a triangle has 3 sides. If you look at it closely, each side has 3 border lines.
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T-Bone
So , three squared ?
that would be an ennead -
Too much info
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Raf
Here's the thing.
We all agree that Christ is, in some way, absent.
In what ways? Well, physical presence, but it would be silly to think that is all. He is also absent in his authority. If you and I have a dispute in that we think he means, we cannot go to him to resolve the dispute. So how do we resolve it? By spirit? Sure, except my spirit tells me I'm right and your spirit tells you that you're right, so how is the third person, who is neither you nor I, able to ascertain who is correctly interpreting the will of God in Christ?
Easy. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.
See, that's the issue. When you list the ways in which Christ remains present, none are objective. All depend on the person interpreting his presence. And if two people disagree and one of them is wrong, the only way to know that is... The Word.
Any Christ who is inconsistent with his Word is QED inaccurate.
...
"God limits himself..."
I find that statement to be accurate in the sense that God limits himself according to the requirements of the plot of the story being told by the author. :)
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OldSkool
Im assuming you likely put no credence in scripture at this point?
To be clear, Im not swooping by for some type of wrongly assumed moral authority to say anything in relation to your beliefs.
Im gonna chew on what you posted for a while and come back around a little later. Thanks for your perspective!
Now here is the difference. You agree with wierwille on this point, and thats cool because you give reasoned answers for your position and not a line of circular reasoning that ends with "its this way because wierwille said its this way." For that I am thankful! Disagreement in matters such as these can be a fun way to see other perspectives and such...anywho.
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Bolshevik
The Word = Jesus Christ
So Jesus Christ takes the place of Jesus Christ? Quite the switcharoo
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Nathan_Jr
Could we say more clearly, simply:
The writer/author/storyteller limits God to fit into the plot of the story.
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Bolshevik
Your argument is that The Word, by which you mean a book, is objective. And people can't agree unless something objective exists?
Is this the case?
Are values objective?
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Nathan_Jr
Isn't interpretation subjective? Who decides when Christ is inconsistent or consistent with his Word?
Though the opinionated claim has been asserted, the Word/Bible/scripture does NOT interpret itself.
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OldSkool
I dont agree with this statement. I dont agree that Christ is absent. We used a goofy illustration of Christ being present/absent in reporting for class where I can readily admit Christ is not physically present, walking around in sandals and tunic on earth the way he was in the gospels. But I also followed up by saying that he has been changed and ascended and that ascended and absent arent synonamous. The problem you guys are having is you cant physically see him so he must be absent.
I feel scripture points to a present, yet invisible Christ. If he is truly absent the we would be awaiting his return, and I understand some use that language, but scripture teaches we are awaiting his appearing. That makes sense when you check the records in the gospes where he disappeared out of people's sight. So a lot of this argument will depend on if you consider the Bible a true account on the subject, because without it we all sound crazy discussing any of this. The Bible directs us to a present Christ, one who is head of his Body. Can a living body have an absent head?
“I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matt. 28:20). Jesus spoke those words to his followers after his resurrection and shortly before his ascension. He didnt say I am absent and will return later so read some Bible verses in the meantime.
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Mike
OldsKool, I check in here to see if anything new or significant has been posted, but it looks like nothing here but a doubling back to defy common sense and logic of words.
AGAIN, I am stunned to see after all my attempts to nail the common sense angle, and after all the jeering and mocking my posts as a mushbrain nonsense,
AGAIN we see Raf coming in with a clear reality check.
AGAIN I see the shock posters have from running into Raf's logic wall.
AGAIN I see the humbled regrouping to somehow salvage the complaint that the Absent Christ teaching in the class ruined us all.
Please, let me know, OIdSkool, if anything new appears here.
*/*/*/*
I feel we were given an excellent foundation to build on. With that foundation we were responsible, as individuals, to build THE PROPER scripture-based relationship with Christ while we wait for his "return," which means personal presence.
*/*/*/*
First Christ was SENT.
Next Christ was ABSENT.
Soon we can say he was SENT again.
I'm looking at the English here indicating sent and absent are related. Anyone care to check the ancient languages on this simple observation?
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OldSkool
You once again provide nothing of substance. Prove me wrong from the verses I listed....you can't.
Quit name dropping Raf...it's quite pathetic...really....
You notice how on Rafs post he provided reasons and logical deductions in his argument? Since your on his jock go ahead and try and emulate how he reasons....cause youve missed that entire boat...all your trying to do is stifle conversation because you disagree...
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Bolshevik
Sent, not created
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OldSkool
Not so...Raf actually posted something to consider...so I slept on it before responding. Your the only one playing gotcha...your gotchasbating....
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waysider
....Oh, my. I feel so ruined now.
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OldSkool
I was just thinking you feel ruined..dang...I do too.....
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OldSkool
Hey, yo, Merriam-webster-mike...HOW are sent and absent related? Can u show the etymology of those words or how the relation works in some way using something besides your unqualified opinion?
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