I think we all agree that Jesus is physically absent but spiritually present.The problem is how twi’s statement concerning the "absent Christ" becomes practical error.
I've seen you guys discussing this "absent Christ" issue for years now, and I honestly don't even remember the various things I've said about it. Is it possible, in my desire to find fault with VPW, that I hopped on the "how dare he say Christ is absent" bandwagon? It would have been easy. CES (STFI, John Lynn, Schoenheit, et al) criticized the "absent Christ" doctrine without overly criticizing Wierwille.
A bandwagon refers to an object or activity that fosters a widespread zeal or passion but doesn’t have enough sustenance to sustain it for very long.However, what does have sustenance on this thread is how the statement itself (the word takes the place of the absent Christ) cunningly assisted in building a harmful and cult-like organization which remains to this day. (imho) Here is why I say this:
“the word”
= the rightly divided word = twi since it’s the only place that has it according to vp himself
“takes the place”
= a specific position or point in space = becomes the focus
“of the absent Christ”
= not presently in place
In other words, with Christ being absent, there is a void and we, twi with the rightly divided word, fill that void.
The point to all the discussion on this thread is that THERE IS NO VOID FOR THEM TO FILL with their in their ungodly ways becauseChrist lives in us.
I know I've recently said some variation of the following, and I stand by it:
To some extent, Christ MUST be absent, or anticipating his return would be rather pointless. At the last supper, Jesus says do this "in remembrance" of me. You don't "remember" something that's present. You recognize it. You acknowledge it. You don't remember it. Christ must in some way be absent.
Yes, we do anticipate his return in his glorified body (which we will be able to see) because at that time he will have a specific new and glorious duty to perform.
When Jesus says to do this “in remembrance” of me, isn’t the bread in reference to his body which will soon be broken, and the wine in reference to his blood which will soon be shed – in other words, his crucifixion?I don’t see how the use of the word “remembrance,” in the context of this one-time event, can then be cited as a way to say Christ is no longer present.
But let's go a little further (as I believe some of you have). The Bible does not speak of a "return" of Christ, or a "second coming." The word translated "coming" is better translated "presence," as in, it's his presence, not his return, that is the hope of the Christian. Now you may say, same thing. And I may agree, except God (or Paul, or whoever chose the word paraousia) has a purpose for everything he says... So if your hope is in his return (Biblically, his presence), then the current state of affairs must necessarily imply, in some manner, his absence.
So I don't think the "absent Christ" is unBiblical at all. It's the present Christ that needs defending, for if he is currently present, how can his presence be your hope?
And yes, I understand there are ways in which he is present as well. They've been articulated effectively. The problem, as I see it, is this need to have one answer be correct and the other incorrect, when the Bible clearly teaches both.
I think “yes” if one means he is physically absent at the same time as being spiritually present. This truth applies to both of your paragraphs above concerning the parousia and our hope because while he is spiritually present now, at that time he will be physically present as well.
He is present with us by way of (the H)holy (S)spirit [I am not taking sides on that one]. He is present with us in prayer. He is the Word, and as such is present where his word is taught.
I would say that depends on how his word is being taught. The way twi teaches thegreat principle, I don’t see Christ’s words being much in there. Twi can say all these things, but how does just saying them mean anything if they don’t also teach the importance of having a personal relationship.Did you think twi did this?
"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is a problematic statement, but not because it posits an absent Christ. The Bible posits an absent Christ. "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is problematic because it doesn't. At least not completely. No one thing takes the place of the absent Christ. But all these things together do. The Word. The spirit. Fellowship. Prayer. Love. Mercy. The manifestation of the spirit. The fruitage of the spirit. YOU. YOU take the place of the absent Christ.
The only way we can do or have all these great things is because Christ is present – he actually lives in us. Even though this is by way of holy spirit, if someone is living in your house, that person is technically present. You can even converse with each other. Every one of these things we have and do is only because we are in union with him (the vine – branch thing).
Isn't God wonderful? Yes – couldn’t agree with you more!
Raf, I know I am a newbie, but I have shared my thoughts in green underneath your own. A question though: Did Jesus ever say God was an “absent Father” because He wasn’t actually present on earth when Jesus was?
I'd like to reboot the thread, maybe make it a little less Mikish and a little more what were we talking about again?
No longer having a stake in the "rightly-divided" answer opens up various avenues of exploration.
I've seen you guys discussing this "absent Christ" issue for years now, and I honestly don't even remember the various things I've said about it. Is it possible, in my desire to find fault with VPW, that I hopped on the "how dare he say Christ is absent" bandwagon? It would have been easy. CES (STFI, John Lynn, Schoenheit, et al) criticized the "absent Christ" doctrine without overly criticizing Wierwille.
I know I've recently said some variation of the following, and I stand by it:
To some extent, Christ MUST be absent, or anticipating his return would be rather pointless. At the last supper, Jesus says do this "in remembrance" of me. You don't "remember" something that's present. You recognize it. You acknowledge it. You don't remember it. Christ must in some way be absent.
But let's go a little further (as I believe some of you have). The Bible does not speak of a "return" of Christ, or a "second coming." The word translated "coming" is better translated "presence," as in, it's his presence, not his return, that is the hope of the Christian. Now you may say, same thing. And I may agree, except God (or Paul, or whoever chose the word paraousia) has a purpose for everything he says... So if your hope is in his return (Biblically, his presence), then the current state of affairs must necessarily imply, in some manner, his absence.
So I don't think the "absent Christ" is unBiblical at all. It's the present Christ that needs defending, for if he is currently present, how can his presence be your hope?
And yes, I understand there are ways in which he is present as well. They've been articulated effectively. The problem, as I see it, is this need to have one answer be correct and the other incorrect, when the Bible clearly teaches both.
He is present with us by way of (the H)holy (S)spirit [I am not taking sides on that one]. He is present with us in prayer. He is the Word, and as such is present where his word is taught.
"The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is a problematic statement, but not because it posits an absent Christ. The Bible posits an absent Christ. "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ" is problematic because it doesn't. At least not completely. No one thing takes the place of the absent Christ. But all these things together do. The Word. The spirit. Fellowship. Prayer. Love. Mercy. The manifestation of the spirit. The fruitage of the spirit. YOU. YOU take the place of the absent Christ.
Isn't God wonderful?
Hey Raf,
Wow you post here still? Cool good to hear some thoughts.
I mean the nature of the ascension ensures there is plenty of physical record of Christ becoming slowly absent.
The contention comes in with the relative absence or presence of his nature in those who propose to be experts in his words.
A couple millennium past his physical presence and plenty of fools construct mountains of nonsense with his words to ensure the slavery of others and the ease of their own lives.
Thus making Christ absent in every sense of the word. Physically, mentally, spiritually, morally.
This is one "testimony" I can give about the absent Christ in my life while in twi. When I used to go witnessing, I don't remember bringing up Jesus much at all, certainly not about having a relationship with him. It was mostly about God and twi, pfal and twig fellowships. This must have been the case because for years after being out of twi, I felt uncomfortable mentioning Jesus in my conversations with others about God. It's still somewhat embarrassing even now to imagine me talking about him - the reasons for this I can't exactly put my finger on at the moment.
I doubt I would have experienced any of the above if Christ was alive and kicking in twi.
This is one "testimony" I can give about the absent Christ in my life while in twi. When I used to go witnessing, I don't remember bringing up Jesus much at all, certainly not about having a relationship with him. It was mostly about God and twi, pfal and twig fellowships. This must have been the case because for years after being out of twi, I felt uncomfortable mentioning Jesus in my conversations with others about God. It's still somewhat embarrassing even now to imagine me talking about him - the reasons for this I can't exactly put my finger on at the moment.
I doubt I would have experienced any of the above if Christ was alive and kicking in twi.
I understand. I was a way corps trained class salesman. I have since asked for forgiveness.
We were NOT taught in the books (or in the film class) that Jesus Christ is absent from US.
He went absent from the physical realm at the Ascension, but became MORE present to US via the spiritual realm.
What you THINK Dr taught about the absent Christ is wrong. You are thinking of the TVTs, which were woefully in error.
This is what I've often posted, and I have posted page references. I will give you this information in PMs if you want to see it. I don't want to waste any more of my time in this thread, though.
2 hours ago, So_crates said:
You got this backwards. YOU were the one arguing for the absent Christ. The others were arguing for a personal relationship.
So, what YOU think Saint Vic taught about the absent Christ is wrong. YOU were thinking of oral tradition, which is woefully in error.
I understand. I was a way corps trained class salesman. I have since asked for forgiveness.
Thanks for understand OldSkool. I'm sure there are many others who also had regrets when looking back at certain aspects of their service while in twi. I can count myself as being one of them. I'm thinking from what you share in your posts that you have found peace since then.
I found the book, Jesus Christ Our Passover, very moving to read. I saw in painful detail of all that Jesus went through which was then followed by being very touched by his immense love for us as shown by willingly becoming our Passover lamb. It blessed me so much at the time that I wrote a children's version of the book for my son. So I believe the doctrine about the purpose of Jesus' ministry, his death and his resurrection were taught in that book. However, the sad part was that for the time I was in twi both before and even after reading Jesus Christ Our Passover, I don't remember being taught the value and importance of having a relationship with him. Neither did I see one being modeled by the leaders I'd known.
I found the book, Jesus Christ Our Passover, very moving to read. I saw in painful detail of all that Jesus went through which was then followed by being very touched by his immense love for us as shown by willingly becoming our Passover lamb. It blessed me so much at the time that I wrote a children's version of the book for my son. So I believe the doctrine about the purpose of Jesus' ministry, his death and his resurrection were taught in that book. However, the sad part was that for the time I was in twi both before and even after reading Jesus Christ Our Passover, I don't remember being taught the value and importance of having a relationship with him. Neither did I see one being modeled by the leaders I'd known.
FYI,
although the book says "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover, he wrote an intro at most, and the research dept wrote everything of substance there. For a few books (Promised Seed, Passover), that was the pattern. For earlier books, either they were compilations of plagiarism of others (The Orange Book and the White Book) or transcriptions of teachings which may have been plagiarized from others (the Blue Book et al.)
So, I'd expect JCOP and/or JCOPS to bless you more than other twi books despite "by vpw" on the cover. In case you were wondering why "his" writing style varies so heavily among books "he wrote".
Naturally, some people insist that it was a good idea that he plagiarized some books, and a good idea he slapped his name on the books written by the Research Dept- even saying that's standard policy somewhere (not outside of twi, actually.)
If it's Christ in you, from where will Christ "come" from? When did he come as a thief in the night? I see Christ in many that post their thoughts here.
although the book says "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover, he wrote an intro at most, and the research dept wrote everything of substance there. For a few books (Promised Seed, Passover), that was the pattern. For earlier books, either they were compilations of plagiarism of others (The Orange Book and the White Book) or transcriptions of teachings which may have been plagiarized from others (the Blue Book et al.)
So, I'd expect JCOP and/or JCOPS to bless you more than other twi books despite "by vpw" on the cover. In case you were wondering why "his" writing style varies so heavily among books "he wrote".
Naturally, some people insist that it was a good idea that he plagiarized some books, and a good idea he slapped his name on the books written by the Research Dept- even saying that's standard policy somewhere (not outside of twi, actually.)
17 hours ago, cman said:
Yes to that WordWolf.
Walter Cummins did the majority of the work and content of those two books. He has a site, but I'm not sure what he's doing these days.
I always wondered who actually wrote those books and it was always obvious to me that it wasnt St Vic. I have wondered about the differences in writing styles before I learned of his plagarism exploits back in the early 2000s. But I never knew who authored those two works and still hold them in high regard. Those two books Ive never combed through for errors like I did the ones that vic obviously copied and altered somewhat. Im sure there are points to reconsider in those books but I feel overall they are somehwhat solid considering they have vicsters name on them.
I always wondered who actually wrote those books and it was always obvious to me that it wasnt St Vic. I have wondered about the differences in writing styles before I learned of his plagarism exploits back in the early 2000s. But I never knew who authored those two works and still hold them in high regard. Those two books Ive never combed through for errors like I did the ones that vic obviously copied and altered somewhat. Im sure there are points to reconsider in those books but I feel overall they are somehwhat solid considering they have vicsters name on them.
In one of those books it is asserted that cocks had different crowing habits in "Bible times." Though the Latin Vulgate and Codex Sinaiticus are frequently cited, no citation is provided for the authors' Biblically crowing cocks. The asserted claim is absurd without foundation.
Upon reading that sentence, I realized I couldn't take the rest of the book seriously. Though there may be some good information and data, that spurious claim was enough for me to doubt the credibility of the rest of the book.
In one of those books it is asserted that cocks had different crowing habits in "Bible times." Though the Latin Vulgate and Codex Sinaiticus are frequently cited, no citation is provided for the authors' Biblically crowing cocks. The asserted claim is absurd without foundation.
Upon reading that sentence, I realized I couldn't take the rest of the book seriously. Though there may be some good information and data, that spurious claim was enough for me to doubt the credibility of the rest of the book.
Well, yeah, theres that. Its been about 15 years since I read them so ... yeah...figures...
In one of those books it is asserted that cocks had different crowing habits in "Bible times." Though the Latin Vulgate and Codex Sinaiticus are frequently cited, no citation is provided for the authors' Biblically crowing cocks. The asserted claim is absurd without foundation.
Upon reading that sentence, I realized I couldn't take the rest of the book seriously. Though there may be some good information and data, that spurious claim was enough for me to doubt the credibility of the rest of the book.
Did you inquire from others in the TWIG about this?
I'm picturing blank stares, avoidance of eye contact, and efforts to pretend the question was never asked or heard.
Did you inquire from others in the TWIG about this?
I'm picturing blank stares, avoidance of eye contact, and efforts to pretend the question was never asked or heard.
Usually, what you picture would be the actual response. The other pat responses were: I’m just trying to rightly divide the word of truth…or… Well, I’ve never been asked that question (exasperated sigh).
When I read that passage about the crowing cocks, it was in the fellowship house after the tithe was collected. I was so floored, so astonished, so dumbfounded by the stupidity, I couldn’t speak. I froze.
It was horrifying to me the credulousness of these people - that they would believe anything, ANYTHING, that was attributed to victor paul wierwille.
Usually, what you picture would be the actual response. The other pat responses were: I’m just trying to rightly divide the word of truth…or… Well, I’ve never been asked that question (exasperated sigh).
When I read that passage about the crowing cocks, it was in the fellowship house after the tithe was collected. I was so floored, so astonished, so dumbfounded by the stupidity, I couldn’t speak. I froze.
It was horrifying to me the credulousness of these people - that they would believe anything, ANYTHING, that was attributed to victor paul wierwille.
I wonder what that does to a person . . . If you're surrounded by non-responses over and over and over. . . . Do our minds develop in the absence of other people?
I guess The Word takes the place of the absent minds.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
427
271
423
257
Popular Days
Feb 14
142
Oct 13
105
Jan 18
101
Oct 8
88
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 427 posts
T-Bone 271 posts
OldSkool 423 posts
Nathan_Jr 257 posts
Popular Days
Feb 14 2023
142 posts
Oct 13 2022
105 posts
Jan 18 2023
101 posts
Oct 8 2022
88 posts
Popular Posts
OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
Posted Images
OldSkool
Obviously not if it's still under discussion...more like every point that you are willing to consider has been covered.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Raf, I know I am a newbie, but I have shared my thoughts in green underneath your own. A question though: Did Jesus ever say God was an “absent Father” because He wasn’t actually present on earth when Jesus was?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Hey Raf,
Wow you post here still? Cool good to hear some thoughts.
I mean the nature of the ascension ensures there is plenty of physical record of Christ becoming slowly absent.
The contention comes in with the relative absence or presence of his nature in those who propose to be experts in his words.
A couple millennium past his physical presence and plenty of fools construct mountains of nonsense with his words to ensure the slavery of others and the ease of their own lives.
Thus making Christ absent in every sense of the word. Physically, mentally, spiritually, morally.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
This is one "testimony" I can give about the absent Christ in my life while in twi. When I used to go witnessing, I don't remember bringing up Jesus much at all, certainly not about having a relationship with him. It was mostly about God and twi, pfal and twig fellowships. This must have been the case because for years after being out of twi, I felt uncomfortable mentioning Jesus in my conversations with others about God. It's still somewhat embarrassing even now to imagine me talking about him - the reasons for this I can't exactly put my finger on at the moment.
I doubt I would have experienced any of the above if Christ was alive and kicking in twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I understand. I was a way corps trained class salesman. I have since asked for forgiveness.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Just to keep the record straight.
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Thanks for understand OldSkool. I'm sure there are many others who also had regrets when looking back at certain aspects of their service while in twi. I can count myself as being one of them. I'm thinking from what you share in your posts that you have found peace since then.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
One more thing...
I found the book, Jesus Christ Our Passover, very moving to read. I saw in painful detail of all that Jesus went through which was then followed by being very touched by his immense love for us as shown by willingly becoming our Passover lamb. It blessed me so much at the time that I wrote a children's version of the book for my son. So I believe the doctrine about the purpose of Jesus' ministry, his death and his resurrection were taught in that book. However, the sad part was that for the time I was in twi both before and even after reading Jesus Christ Our Passover, I don't remember being taught the value and importance of having a relationship with him. Neither did I see one being modeled by the leaders I'd known.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Yes! Ive been through a lot but if it took that much to get here then it was worth it!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
FYI,
although the book says "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover, he wrote an intro at most, and the research dept wrote everything of substance there. For a few books (Promised Seed, Passover), that was the pattern. For earlier books, either they were compilations of plagiarism of others (The Orange Book and the White Book) or transcriptions of teachings which may have been plagiarized from others (the Blue Book et al.)
So, I'd expect JCOP and/or JCOPS to bless you more than other twi books despite "by vpw" on the cover. In case you were wondering why "his" writing style varies so heavily among books "he wrote".
Naturally, some people insist that it was a good idea that he plagiarized some books, and a good idea he slapped his name on the books written by the Research Dept- even saying that's standard policy somewhere (not outside of twi, actually.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Yes to that WordWolf.
Walter Cummins did the majority of the work and content of those two books. He has a site, but I'm not sure what he's doing these days.
Continuing in the Scriptures
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Anyway, Christ is not absent at all.
If it's Christ in you, from where will Christ "come" from? When did he come as a thief in the night? I see Christ in many that post their thoughts here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I always wondered who actually wrote those books and it was always obvious to me that it wasnt St Vic. I have wondered about the differences in writing styles before I learned of his plagarism exploits back in the early 2000s. But I never knew who authored those two works and still hold them in high regard. Those two books Ive never combed through for errors like I did the ones that vic obviously copied and altered somewhat. Im sure there are points to reconsider in those books but I feel overall they are somehwhat solid considering they have vicsters name on them.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I emailed him with a few questions before I buy but his book titles pique my interest. So we shall see.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
In one of those books it is asserted that cocks had different crowing habits in "Bible times." Though the Latin Vulgate and Codex Sinaiticus are frequently cited, no citation is provided for the authors' Biblically crowing cocks. The asserted claim is absurd without foundation.
Upon reading that sentence, I realized I couldn't take the rest of the book seriously. Though there may be some good information and data, that spurious claim was enough for me to doubt the credibility of the rest of the book.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Well, yeah, theres that. Its been about 15 years since I read them so ... yeah...figures...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I knew someone with a crow habit
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Did you inquire from others in the TWIG about this?
I'm picturing blank stares, avoidance of eye contact, and efforts to pretend the question was never asked or heard.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Usually, what you picture would be the actual response. The other pat responses were: I’m just trying to rightly divide the word of truth…or… Well, I’ve never been asked that question (exasperated sigh).
When I read that passage about the crowing cocks, it was in the fellowship house after the tithe was collected. I was so floored, so astonished, so dumbfounded by the stupidity, I couldn’t speak. I froze.
It was horrifying to me the credulousness of these people - that they would believe anything, ANYTHING, that was attributed to victor paul wierwille.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I wonder what that does to a person . . . If you're surrounded by non-responses over and over and over. . . . Do our minds develop in the absence of other people?
I guess The Word takes the place of the absent minds.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
When you say The Word, you mean….?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
The Way International, VPW, a shared fantasy between all participants
PFAL and the collaterals as opposed to The Bible.
Edited by BolshevikAdded a sentence
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
So…
TWI+VPW+SharedFantasy+PFAL+Collaterals = The Word
I like it. Makes sense in context.
HOWEVER…
That’s not Mike’s formula. His is:
YourBelieving+YourWalk+ChristInYou+TheBible = The Word
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Both equations have The Word. So we can equate them.
And with each variable you can make a new function. So we can can modify this so the fun never ends.
But I would reduce it to Shared Fantasy, the term from Sam Vaknin, the self proclaimed narcissist expert.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.