I'm not saying you are I'm just saying how it comes across at times. I mean you no disrespect at all.
I really want to get into your Blue Scripture List of "re-visits" by the absent Jesus prior to his Return.
My first response was just the beginning of what i want to do. All those scriptures are plain and easy to read and understand the main idea. I think some may be Jesus himself re-visiting OR being a projection from angels like the Transfiguration depiction of Moses and Eliajah and the burning bush. I think some of those scriptures may indicate a projection.
I don't see any functional difference between a personal re-visit and a projection. What is important is that the job gets done.
I also wish you'd take seriously the AC'75 tape VPW played about the little girl getting healed by Jesus with her parents and doctor watching. It shows that he was not trying to hide Jesus from our consciousness with his use (once) of the word "absent." That was early in the game.
Late in his life VPW published that chapter on Zaacheus and urged us to SEEK JESUS. We should have seen then that just because God caused him to be temporarily absent does not mean Jesus is out of the story. It is a CHANGED configuration for his interactions between the Ascension and the Return.
All your Blue Scripture List items can be handled this way. The absent Jesus either re-visits or is projected in a vision.
God is obviously happy with the current arrangement of him being "received by a cloud" or "not known after the flesh" or any of the other descriptions of his current state "at the right hand of God."
WHY would I want all this negative, insult saturated "attention" ?
I feel a duty to bring up things that, to me, are obviously missing to the story that is presented here. I press on with this duty IN SPITE of all the negative attention, not to generate it.
The thread is about "The Absent Christ", not the absence of evidence for The Big Bang.
(1) Because, as any psychotherapist or parent of a three year old will tell you, negative attention is better than no attention.
(2) Nobody is so dedicated to duty that they would waste 20 years spinning their wheels.
You prove this by things you've already bragged about.
(3) Why aren't you still operating the particle collider? Didn't you feel a duty to the organization that signed your paycheck?
(4) Why don't you still do stand up? Don't you feel a duty to bring some laughter in a sad world? We hear a lot about the sad side of things, don't you feel a duty to present the missing happy side?
(5) You said you were retaking the class and attending fellowship. Are you telling them about your escapades here? So you get twice the attention for little effort. Negative attention here and positive attention when they eww and ahh at fellowship.
1. I have stories to tell about the positive attention I get right now, here in my personal life that I have never posted on. No one would believe me if I did. I have had a VERY odd life. I had to write down the oddities some time ago to believe I had really had experienced them. I look at the list and can hardly believe it all.
Let's just say that I get MUCH more positive attention than I deserve in my private unrevealed life. I marvel at it, and constantly want to find ways to turn this positive attention to moving the Word. I figure there is a duty attached to this very surprising, but odd blessing.
2. The duty I feel in posting here has been successful from my standpoint, plus it has all sorts of auxiliary blessings to me. For one, I have sharpened my writing skills considerably in the last 20 years. I have a wealth of boilerplate to discuss many Word related and TWI related topics. I have met a few life-long friends from lurkers and low volume posters that you folks never see. I could go on, but I assure you, I don't like the negative attention, and I do not lust for positive attention. I actually have TOO MUCH positive attention now, and am often praying it not go to my head, and that I can properly handle to God's glory.
3. This item makes no sense to me.
4. I am still doing the "making people feel good" thing, but just not with comedy. I do a little of that on the side.
5. I am going very slow with the TWI-4 people. They give me much more attention than I had expected a few years ago. I am more interested in celebrating the many things I agree with them on, but am slowly accumulating some constructive criticisms for them. I took the PFAL-T class to experience again the 3 weeks of synchronized attention that the class members enjoy. I had not experienced such a mass sync of minds since 1985. Most of my PFAL study has been alone, and doing it with other people again was a joy. I get plenty of attention from them and am thankful for it. The people on the field have been paragons of love, and I sense that HQ is possibly just as loving, just too busy to interact much. So, I am not rushing them, and soaking up the local fellowship as much as possible.
God is obviously happy with the current arrangement of him being "received by a cloud" or "not known after the flesh" or any of the other descriptions of his current state "at the right hand of God."
. . .
These phrases are all figurative and not necessarily pertaining to physical dimensions, are they?
1. I have stories to tell about the positive attention I get right now, here in my personal life that I have never posted on. No one would believe me if I did. I have had a VERY odd life. I had to write down the oddities some time ago to believe I had really had experienced them. I look at the list and can hardly believe it all.
Let's just say that I get MUCH more positive attention than I deserve in my private unrevealed life. I marvel at it, and constantly want to find ways to turn this positive attention to moving the Word. I figure there is a duty attached to this very surprising, but odd blessing.
Yah, sure. You get so much attention in your private life you have to come here to get more. The length of your response is very telling. Remember what I said about the length of the post and the effort to con.
25 minutes ago, Mike said:
2. The duty I feel in posting here has been successful from my standpoint, plus it has all sorts of auxiliary blessings to me. For one, I have sharpened my writing skills considerably in the last 20 years. I have a wealth of boilerplate to discuss many Word related and TWI related topics. I have met a few life-long friends from lurkers and low volume posters that you folks never see. I could go on, but I assure you, I don't like the negative attention, and I do not lust for positive attention. I actually have TOO MUCH positive attention now, and am often praying it not go to my head, and that I can properly handle to God's glory.
Again the length of the response. And you shift back to rationalizing all the positive attention you claim to receive.
Since your so entrenched in your duty to tell what's missing here, why aren't you so dutiful to tell what's missing in fellowship?
25 minutes ago, Mike said:
3. This item makes no sense to me.
What about it makes no sense? If you're talking duty, I would think one of your major duties would be to your employer.
25 minutes ago, Mike said:
4. I am still doing the "making people feel good" thing, but just not with comedy. I do a little of that on the side.
How? When your here most of the time. Your not answering the questions I ask. Why the avoidance?
25 minutes ago, Mike said:
5. I am going very slow with the TWI-4 people. They give me much more attention than I had expected a few years ago. I am more interested in celebrating the many things I agree with them on, but am slowly accumulating some constructive criticisms for them. I took the PFAL-T class to experience again the 3 weeks of synchronized attention that the class members enjoy. I had not experienced such a mass sync of minds since 1985. Most of my PFAL study has been alone, and doing it with other people again was a joy. I get plenty of attention from them and am thankful for it. The people on the field have been paragons of love, and I sense that HQ is possibly just as loving, just too busy to interact much. So, I am not rushing them, and soaking up the local fellowship as much as possible.
After a short Way commercial we return to our regularly scheduled program.
Again, not a response to what I stated. Your avoidance tells me I'm probably right, that your going to fellowship and bragging all about how you "teach" those Greasespotters.
Yah, sure. You get so much attention in your private life you have to come here to get more. The length of your response is very telling. Remember what I said about the length of the post and the effort to con.
Come to San Diego and I can show you what I am talking about. I get an astounding amount of attention, and it is challenging to handle it. If you want to believe your own constructed lie about this, someday you will be very ashamed of it.
How come you don't apply the same length of post criticism to WW and T-Bone? Who are they conning?
You are swimming in your own BS. You can never know what is going on in my mind or in my life. You just are starting with all the wrong ingredients to have a clue. I suspect your thinking in other areas you know nothing about is equally loaded with undeserved self respect.
Come to San Diego and I can show you what I am talking about. I get an astounding amount of attention, and it is challenging to handle it. If you want to believe your own constructed lie about this, someday you will be very ashamed of it.
I'll risk it.
So, you're trying to tell me that rather than spend time with all those people that give you so much positive attention, you prefer to waste time in a place where you get negative attention.
9 minutes ago, Mike said:
How come you don't apply the same length of post criticism to WW and T-Bone? Who are they conning?
What do WW and T-Bone make long post about and what are you making long posts about?
I really want to get into your Blue Scripture List of "re-visits" by the absent Jesus prior to his Return.
My first response was just the beginning of what i want to do. All those scriptures are plain and easy to read and understand the main idea. I think some may be Jesus himself re-visiting OR being a projection from angels like the Transfiguration depiction of Moses and Eliajah and the burning bush. I think some of those scriptures may indicate a projection.
I don't see any functional difference between a personal re-visit and a projection. What is important is that the job gets done.
I also wish you'd take seriously the AC'75 tape VPW played about the little girl getting healed by Jesus with her parents and doctor watching. It shows that he was not trying to hide Jesus from our consciousness with his use (once) of the word "absent." That was early in the game.
Late in his life VPW published that chapter on Zaacheus and urged us to SEEK JESUS. We should have seen then that just because God caused him to be temporarily absent does not mean Jesus is out of the story. It is a CHANGED configuration for his interactions between the Ascension and the Return.
All your Blue Scripture List items can be handled this way. The absent Jesus either re-visits or is projected in a vision.
God is obviously happy with the current arrangement of him being "received by a cloud" or "not known after the flesh" or any of the other descriptions of his current state "at the right hand of God."
How do you like that!
We are back on topic!
Its interesting you endeavor to try and make all of scripture fit around a concept stated by a man whom you elevate above God. You are saying that Jesus Christ is a hologram generated by an angel? That makes God a liar then because the Apostles thought it was Jesus Christ. Mike, is God a liar or is wierwille a liar?
Well, my aim isnt to sit here and rip this apart line by line so I wont. I just feel its sad that you seem to have been absolutely blinded to what is written in plain English and have no trust that God Almighty is capable of communicating his will to his creation.
Received by a cloud (and thus hidden by it) seems literal and a literal ascension to the 3D sky.
""not known after the flesh" seems to have nothing to do with physical dimensions.
"seated at the right hand of God" is definitely figurative and NOT pertaining to physical dimensions.
Those were the only phrases you cited.
The cloud part was discussed before, I don't remember where. But there is some variance.
"not known after the flesh" would sound 3-dimensional, if flesh means the human body, which is 3 dimensional
We agree on the last one.
Can you summarize, as briefly as possible, 1) where has Jesus been for the last 2000 years? 2) What is The Word? 3) Does The Word relate to Jesus and how?
I know you've probably gone over it but the thread is long.
So, you're trying to tell me that rather than spend time with all those people that give you so much positive attention, you prefer to waste time in a place where you get negative attention.
1. I can do both to my satisfaction. I'd like to have more time and energy to post more, but have to budget it.
2. As I said earlier today, I don't feel this is a waste posting here. That is your projection and incorrect.
Its interesting you endeavor to try and make all of scripture fit around a concept stated by a man whom you elevate above God. You are saying that Jesus Christ is a hologram generated by an angel? That makes God a liar then because the Apostles thought it was Jesus Christ. Mike, is God a liar or is wierwille a liar?
Well, my aim isnt to sit here and rip this apart line by line so I wont. I just feel its sad that you seem to have been absolutely blinded to what is written in plain English and have no trust that God Almighty is capable of communicating his will to his creation.
I do not regard an accurate projection to be a lie. It gets the job done.
You are really stretching it here.
You are the one with an idol above God: your anti-idol is just as much as an idol. I differ and disagree with VPW in ample places. I am thankful to God for directing me to his teachings.
I do not regard an accurate projection to be a lie. It gets the job done.
You are really stretching it here.
You are the one with an idol above God: your anti-idol is just as much as an idol. I differ and disagree with VPW in ample places. I am thankful to God for directing me to his teachings.
Im stretching it because I believe the Bible as written? Im stretching it because I logically link what you say and come up with what it is? That for God to give a projection of Jesus Christ to the Apostles that they thought was Jesus Christ would make God a liar?
You cant elevate Jesus Christ above God because he is the one who elevated him to second in command in his Lordship, he has given all things into his hands.
I agree with WW that you are using a strawman logic fallacy with your made up anti-idol rhetoric in dealing with the plain truth that you cannot accept because you elevate what a drunken plagaraist said above scripture.
1. I can do both to my satisfaction. I'd like to have more time and energy to post more, but have to budget it.
**Points over Mike's head**
Look Mike there goes the point.
13 minutes ago, Mike said:
2. As I said earlier today, I don't feel this is a waste posting here. That is your projection and incorrect.
I never said you said you were wasting your time posting here. I stated, in different words, if there was a choice between so many positive attentive people and people who offer you, as you claimed, negative attention, I would think you would choose the positive over the negative.
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are inblue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father,and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
When I am not defending my honor, or answering questions, I come up with the most on-topic posts, in my opinion.
Bolshevik asked you three questions...
3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
Can you summarize, as briefly as possible, 1) where has Jesus been for the last 2000 years? 2) What is The Word? 3) Does The Word relate to Jesus and how?
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First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
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Mike
I really want to get into your Blue Scripture List of "re-visits" by the absent Jesus prior to his Return.
My first response was just the beginning of what i want to do. All those scriptures are plain and easy to read and understand the main idea. I think some may be Jesus himself re-visiting OR being a projection from angels like the Transfiguration depiction of Moses and Eliajah and the burning bush. I think some of those scriptures may indicate a projection.
I don't see any functional difference between a personal re-visit and a projection. What is important is that the job gets done.
I also wish you'd take seriously the AC'75 tape VPW played about the little girl getting healed by Jesus with her parents and doctor watching. It shows that he was not trying to hide Jesus from our consciousness with his use (once) of the word "absent." That was early in the game.
Late in his life VPW published that chapter on Zaacheus and urged us to SEEK JESUS. We should have seen then that just because God caused him to be temporarily absent does not mean Jesus is out of the story. It is a CHANGED configuration for his interactions between the Ascension and the Return.
All your Blue Scripture List items can be handled this way. The absent Jesus either re-visits or is projected in a vision.
God is obviously happy with the current arrangement of him being "received by a cloud" or "not known after the flesh" or any of the other descriptions of his current state "at the right hand of God."
How do you like that!
We are back on topic!
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Bolshevik
The thread is about "The Absent Christ", not the absence of evidence for The Big Bang.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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Mike
1. I have stories to tell about the positive attention I get right now, here in my personal life that I have never posted on. No one would believe me if I did. I have had a VERY odd life. I had to write down the oddities some time ago to believe I had really had experienced them. I look at the list and can hardly believe it all.
Let's just say that I get MUCH more positive attention than I deserve in my private unrevealed life. I marvel at it, and constantly want to find ways to turn this positive attention to moving the Word. I figure there is a duty attached to this very surprising, but odd blessing.
2. The duty I feel in posting here has been successful from my standpoint, plus it has all sorts of auxiliary blessings to me. For one, I have sharpened my writing skills considerably in the last 20 years. I have a wealth of boilerplate to discuss many Word related and TWI related topics. I have met a few life-long friends from lurkers and low volume posters that you folks never see. I could go on, but I assure you, I don't like the negative attention, and I do not lust for positive attention. I actually have TOO MUCH positive attention now, and am often praying it not go to my head, and that I can properly handle to God's glory.
3. This item makes no sense to me.
4. I am still doing the "making people feel good" thing, but just not with comedy. I do a little of that on the side.
5. I am going very slow with the TWI-4 people. They give me much more attention than I had expected a few years ago. I am more interested in celebrating the many things I agree with them on, but am slowly accumulating some constructive criticisms for them. I took the PFAL-T class to experience again the 3 weeks of synchronized attention that the class members enjoy. I had not experienced such a mass sync of minds since 1985. Most of my PFAL study has been alone, and doing it with other people again was a joy. I get plenty of attention from them and am thankful for it. The people on the field have been paragons of love, and I sense that HQ is possibly just as loving, just too busy to interact much. So, I am not rushing them, and soaking up the local fellowship as much as possible.
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Bolshevik
These phrases are all figurative and not necessarily pertaining to physical dimensions, are they?
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So_crates
Yah, sure. You get so much attention in your private life you have to come here to get more. The length of your response is very telling. Remember what I said about the length of the post and the effort to con.
Again the length of the response. And you shift back to rationalizing all the positive attention you claim to receive.
Since your so entrenched in your duty to tell what's missing here, why aren't you so dutiful to tell what's missing in fellowship?
What about it makes no sense? If you're talking duty, I would think one of your major duties would be to your employer.
How? When your here most of the time. Your not answering the questions I ask. Why the avoidance?
After a short Way commercial we return to our regularly scheduled program.
Again, not a response to what I stated. Your avoidance tells me I'm probably right, that your going to fellowship and bragging all about how you "teach" those Greasespotters.
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OldSkool
No worries, much love!
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Mike
Received by a cloud (and thus hidden by it) seems literal and a literal ascension to the 3D sky.
""not known after the flesh" seems to have nothing to do with physical dimensions.
"seated at the right hand of God" is definitely figurative and NOT pertaining to physical dimensions.
Those were the only phrases you cited.
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Mike
Come to San Diego and I can show you what I am talking about. I get an astounding amount of attention, and it is challenging to handle it. If you want to believe your own constructed lie about this, someday you will be very ashamed of it.
How come you don't apply the same length of post criticism to WW and T-Bone? Who are they conning?
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Mike
You are swimming in your own BS. You can never know what is going on in my mind or in my life. You just are starting with all the wrong ingredients to have a clue. I suspect your thinking in other areas you know nothing about is equally loaded with undeserved self respect.
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So_crates
I'll risk it.
So, you're trying to tell me that rather than spend time with all those people that give you so much positive attention, you prefer to waste time in a place where you get negative attention.
What do WW and T-Bone make long post about and what are you making long posts about?
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OldSkool
Its interesting you endeavor to try and make all of scripture fit around a concept stated by a man whom you elevate above God. You are saying that Jesus Christ is a hologram generated by an angel? That makes God a liar then because the Apostles thought it was Jesus Christ. Mike, is God a liar or is wierwille a liar?
Well, my aim isnt to sit here and rip this apart line by line so I wont. I just feel its sad that you seem to have been absolutely blinded to what is written in plain English and have no trust that God Almighty is capable of communicating his will to his creation.
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Bolshevik
The cloud part was discussed before, I don't remember where. But there is some variance.
"not known after the flesh" would sound 3-dimensional, if flesh means the human body, which is 3 dimensional
We agree on the last one.
Can you summarize, as briefly as possible, 1) where has Jesus been for the last 2000 years? 2) What is The Word? 3) Does The Word relate to Jesus and how?
I know you've probably gone over it but the thread is long.
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So_crates
Odd, I'd say the same thing about you.
No, I don't know what goes on in your mind, I only see the results. I don't know you, but I know people like you.
And usually, when I get the above type of response it means I'm on the nose
Huh?
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Mike
1. I can do both to my satisfaction. I'd like to have more time and energy to post more, but have to budget it.
2. As I said earlier today, I don't feel this is a waste posting here. That is your projection and incorrect.
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Mike
I do not regard an accurate projection to be a lie. It gets the job done.
You are really stretching it here.
You are the one with an idol above God: your anti-idol is just as much as an idol. I differ and disagree with VPW in ample places. I am thankful to God for directing me to his teachings.
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OldSkool
Im stretching it because I believe the Bible as written? Im stretching it because I logically link what you say and come up with what it is? That for God to give a projection of Jesus Christ to the Apostles that they thought was Jesus Christ would make God a liar?
You cant elevate Jesus Christ above God because he is the one who elevated him to second in command in his Lordship, he has given all things into his hands.
I agree with WW that you are using a strawman logic fallacy with your made up anti-idol rhetoric in dealing with the plain truth that you cannot accept because you elevate what a drunken plagaraist said above scripture.
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So_crates
**Points over Mike's head**
Look Mike there goes the point.
I never said you said you were wasting your time posting here. I stated, in different words, if there was a choice between so many positive attentive people and people who offer you, as you claimed, negative attention, I would think you would choose the positive over the negative.
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So_crates
Would it be deciving?
The above sentence makes no sense. We don't put Saint Vic's word over the bible.
That's your right. Just as it's our right to reject his teachings and your propaganda
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Raf
Anyone have any idea when the last post about The Absent Christ was?
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Bolshevik
He vanished into a cloud. Or behind it. We think it was a cloud. Or fog. Maybe.
https://bigthink.com/13-8/limits-of-knowledge-big-bang-origin-life/
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Mike
Yes. The second post on this page was very much on the Absent Christ. Plus I had a followup one mid page.
When I am not defending my honor, or answering questions, I come up with the most on-topic posts, in my opinion.
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OldSkool
Somewhere back there....
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OldSkool
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are in blue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
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Nathan_Jr
Bolshevik asked you three questions...
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