Tyson is one of the TV stars that I was talking about.
He butchers his review of the Steady State conjecture.
He avoids the main objection to Big Bang confirmation, that the Red Shift is a pure doppler effect, while claiming to cover the objections.
So_crates, that confirms everything I said. Even repeatability is in there, but then, very dishonestly, it is loosely associated with confirming Big Bang.
Tyson is a genuine physicist, and doubles as a chief priest in the Big Bang religion. This video confirms, for me and those who remember the Steady State conjecture, everything I said above about the dishonesty in academia being pounded into mass media for population acceptance.
Tyson is one of the TV stars that I was talking about.
He butchers his review of the Steady State conjecture.
He avoids the main objection to Big Bang confirmation, that the Red Shift is a pure doppler effect, while claiming to cover the objections.
So_crates, that confirms everything I said. Even repeatability is in there, but then, very dishonestly, it is loosely associated with confirming Big Bang.
Tyson is a genuine physicist, and doubles as a chief priest in the Big Bang religion. This video confirms, for me and those who remember the Steady State conjecture, everything I said above about the dishonesty in academia being pounded into mass media for population acceptance.
Did we watch the same video? Or did you do your usual watch until you find something you disagree with and then stop the video?
Did you get past 5:25 where he explained how science worked?
It's not surprising it confirms what you said, as you hear what you want to hear and ignore everything else.
The red shift is pure Doppler effect. Okay, I buy that. The red shift is cause by light waves being stretched out as the star or galaxy races away from us, as they would from a massive explosion. Seems to me this supports the big bang.
If your protest about the big bang is because it isn't biblical. Does the bible tell us how God created the universe? Could the big bang be one possible way?
I try to teach my son how (H-O-W) to find out. I try to teach him how (H-O-W) to research. (He knows the accurate meaning of that word.) How to question, inquire, test, doubt. How to always follow the evidence wherever it might lead - especially evidence presented after he thinks he knows.
I try to teach him that dogma is rarely good.
I try to teach him to pay attention to his own confirmation bias and to be aware of biases held by others.
I try to teach him the more he embraces the not knowing, the more he can know.
The red shift is cause by light waves being stretched out as the star or galaxy races away from us, as they would from a massive explosion. Seems to me this supports the big bang.
If your protest about the big bang is because it isn't biblical...
No, it has nothing to do with the Bible.
Comparing the surety of "...Seems to me..." with the surety some theories in science enjoy is what I am focused at here.
My whole set of points here has to do with LEVELS of SURETY that different sciences (and different theories) enjoy. That is a subtle topic.
Tyson presents the Big Bang as if it enjoys the extreme surety that Physics in general enjoys compared to the other sciences.
But what he hides here is that within Physics, the Big Bang is at the bottom of the SURETY list. It has none of the type of surety many theories in Physics enjoy.
Surety is measured by the number of significant figures a theoretically predicted number matches with it's corresponding number, which is measured in a laboratory.
And now the derailment of the Absent Christ is REALLY over the line.
I was only trying to give a tiny answer to Nathan_Jr.
Oh well. I am now overloaded with a large backup of posts on two threads that I really want to respond to, so let's PLEASE leave this off-topic tangent. Actually I have no where near the time for handling them tonight, so I'm just planting my excuse here, for not responding to so many posts.
As far as I can tell, the current consensus among physicists and cosmologists is that there is more evidence supporting the Big Bang and sufficient evidence refuting Steady State.
The evidence is complicated, but it's available. One can find out for one's self if one cares to go beyond what one has been taught.
As far as I can tell, the current consensus among physicists and cosmologists is that there is more evidence supporting the Big Bang and sufficient evidence refuting Steady State.
The evidence is complicated, but it's available. One can find out for one's self if one cares to go beyond what one has been taught.
I think time can be calculated back to a singularity, what would be the Big Bang, maybe. It's an extrapolation from the expansion of the universe. The Big Bang itself has no calculation.
Usually when people say Big Bang, it means that moment we're not sure of.
I think time can be calculated back to a singularity, what would be the Big Bang, maybe. It's an extrapolation from the expansion of the universe. The Big Bang itself has no calculation.
Usually when people say Big Bang, it means that moment we're not sure of.
I think this is Mike’s exaggeration and misrepresentation of what Grease Spotters think. As far as I know, no one here has ever said wierwille claimed he got lots of divine dictation from God.
What wierwille did was deliberately mislead a lot of people by claiming God was routinely teaching him !
I like to go the extra mile to give a person the benefit of a doubt - so I used the hyperlink WordWolf cited for the source. And so, the following is only some excerpts from Mike’s ‘transcript’- and I used a red fontsome places where wierwille states God was speaking to him, giving him revelation, routinely teaching him…overall implying he had God at his beck and call as a consultant…advisor…a specialist … a mentor...a teacher... …anyway…here is
the excerpt from what Mike posted on December 25th, 2017, 12:40 AM:
…And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word." And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day: "That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!" "Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed. My denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God."
And I thought that was terrific! But during the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit. It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.
I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky 'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. And I sat in that little office and I cried like a baby, because I guess it was about my time to cry, because I'd grown up but didn't know the Word.
And from that day on and He'd promised to teach me the Word, I have tried with all my heart, from time to time--all along, to learn this Word. One of the reasons there are sections of the Word perhaps that I--I don't know, because I do too much cement pouring and a few other items that have to be done and that have to be taken care of. But I am absolutely confident that there is no portion of God's Word that God would not teach me and unfold to me if I studied the Word to show myself approved unto Him by rightly dividing it.
And that began the ministry that has cost me, sense-knowledge, more than anybody will ever realize--except those of us who've gone through it. It gives ya' a whole set of new friends. It caused people, heads of my denomination, through various times when I appeared teaching, like in India, even to write letters against me that I was not a member of the denomination at all--and I'd been born in the lousy place. Isn't that something? And I have them on file--have them in my files, you ought to see 'em, I got a sheet this big.
These are prices you pay. Then you say, well, why don't I reciprocate? Because, people, you can't fight and work the Word too. You can't be fighting all the time and trying to defend yourself against the unbelievers, because the unbelievers are many more than the believers. And we've got only one job to do, as far as my life is concerned, and that is to teach the Word. Whether anybody believes it or not, that's not my responsibility. But to teach it is my responsibility, because He said He'd teach me the Word if I would do one thing--teach it.
Now in order to teach it, I have to study the Word; and when I study it, He shows it to me, then I can teach it. I think a lot of you people know these Bible students that are in here tonight, and we have among our people gathered here tonight, like almost every Sunday night, some of the finest Bible students in the world today. We have Bible students in here to whom no theologian in the entire world can hold a candle when it comes to the rightly dividing and the understanding of God's Word. I think every person in here knows that they can work the Word and they do work it. They get wonderful light and they contribute a great deal to The Way ministry and the light that's taught out of The Way ministry. But when these people bring their light on the Word to me and I have the opportunity to hear it--it doesn't take me but one reading or one hearing and I can, usually, without working it too far, I can pick out the error or pick the good that they bring and fit it right in.
But this is what God raised me to and when He gave me that revelation, and that was a real phenomena or phenomenon. From that day on--this was in Payne, Ohio where this happened, light began to dawn. But you can't learn the whole Word in one night. Therefore, you study the Word--you study it. I suppose I read Genesis chapter one through eleven a thousand times. I don't know how many times you've read it, but I imagine a thousand times is a low number that I have read Genesis, chapter one through eleven. Because I was taught that Genesis one through eleven had at least four or five different authors--you know, the J-P-D documents, this kind of stuff. I'd been taught all of this.
And so I'd read the Word; I'd read it--I'd read it. Then I'd work, start looking--start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light--men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others--many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it.
There is quite a difference between taking dictation and being taught. Withdictation one person who is "dictating" speaks and another who is "taking dictation" writes down the words as they are spoken. The person taking dictation doesn’t have to understand all that is said – but should at least have all the words spoken and in the same order as when it was given. From wierwille’s own words I know he wasn’t claiming he took dictation from God.
With teachingthere are principles and methods used by teachers to enable student learning. These strategies are determined partly on subject matter to be taught and partly by the nature of the learner. From wierwille’s own words it is evident he was claiming to be taught by God directly.
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In order to get the bigger picture of wierwille’s unabashed plagiarism and delusion of grandeurcheck this out from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 175, Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences: “I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.*
And in the years that followed, there were many men I learned from: Glenn Clark, Karl Barth from Switzerland, E. Stanley Jones, Paul Tillich, Starr Daily, Rufus Mosley, Dr. John Gaynor Banks, and there were many, many others. I tried to get all I could from anybody.”
And on page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”
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As far as Mike’s statement – that the transcript “explains that the revelations were few and came only after he worked the word with his senses the best he could…”I think Mike is deluded.
I believe anyone who is NOT enamored with this myth ofwierwilleshould be able to see through his smoke and mirrors. Comparing wierwille’s body of work with that of E.W. Bullinger, J.E. Stiles, E.W. Kenyon and B.G. Leonard it becomes clear thatwierwillewas an unabashed plagiarist – and in the final analysis also an incompetent teacher who also bastardized the works of others to serve his depraved agenda.
It is intriguing to note wierwille attempted to preemptively avoid the issue of pirating intellectual property by saying much of what he taught was nothing new, he simply pieced together what he learned from others and through his own due diligence of biblical research and God’s ‘tutelage’ made it accurate in the process.
Christians, Bible students, beware of the con ! The subtle implication of wierwille’sclaims shift the Bible’s authority away from the text-in-context and onto wierwille’s ‘assumed authority’. Considering wierwille’sclaim that God would teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century – it is worth noting that Christians back in that apostolic age had no Bible – the New Testament had not been written yet.
Just for grins let’s suspend criticism of wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and examine his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. If indeed he had God’s help, then we should NOT find any errors, theological inconsistencies or any logical fallacies – in either the exact copying of another person’s material or in wierwille'ssupposedly “correcting" , “revising” …or in some way modifying or “accurizing” another person’s material. In other words, the finished product of wierwille’sdoctrine…PFAL…The Word that wierwille taught should be error-free and faultless in every way…look through the various topics on Grease Spot Café – in the forums of About the Way and Doctrinal you’ll find thoughtful analysis of wierwille’s doctrines and the policies and practices of The Way International.
Any folks still in TWI – you owe it to yourself – you owe it to your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ – you are not your own – you were bought with a price - Jesus Christ’s sacrifice…so for the sake of your own soul explore Grease Spot Café.
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*I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.
A criterion that wierwille used at the beginning of the PFAL class kept popping up in my head. He was reading from John 10:10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” and then he said either Jesus lied to us here or he told the truth. If he lied to us here – then we ought to chuck the whole thing away – because, he reasoned, if the Bible is not trustworthy there it’s not trustworthy anywhere else so why waste your time…and now ironically, I found myself gravitating toward the same criterion – if I could find some serious falsehood – then that would be a good reason to review and reevaluate everything…That makes me think of I Thessalonians 5:21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good …how many PFAL grads have done that with wierwille’s works?
In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a person’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille liedabout something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…the letter reads as follows:
June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.
Sincerely,
Vivian Ruby
Registrar’s Office
Even if you want to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt and suggest he may have purchased a bunch of courses but did not complete them – I would say that’s doubtful – it still doesn’t agree with what he said “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” Even if he purchased ten classes but didn’t complete any of them – how could he say he took everything Moody Bible Institute Correspondence School had to offer? He made a vague and misleading statement. Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher?
You can see the actual letter from the Moody Bible Institute if you click here
Would you really trust an unabashed plagiarist? Would you believe someone who routinely lied about their accomplishments?
That’s all for now, folks
On 1/25/2023 at 9:16 AM, Mike said:
2
That is a very telling phrase: "...the foundation of my faith was built upon..."
I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar.
In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible and especially Paul's Epistles to my mind so that I could use them to benefit my live and others.
The ministry was merely a vehicle to help this process in my mind.
My suspicions and respects toward VPW went up and down over the decades. But my understanding of the Bible has just increased and increased over the years, due to the start I got in PFAL.
I am so glad I built my faith on the Bible, and still do.
On 1/25/2023 at 8:04 PM, Mike said:
3
I was out the door to work when you posted that; just got back and read a lot of your long list of scriptures. Some I can handle fast, some I need a refresher, having put them down decades ago, satisfied I understood them. Explaining them to others is another deal.
I saw the pattern to the questions, though, and can try to “mass answer” them with a few words.Then, when time permits, I can go into each individual scripture.
*/*/*/* Now, let’s get up front about something. No matter what I write as a summary of handling that list, and no matter what amount of text I devote to each scripture, you will find SOMETHING(s) about it to totally reject it, and even if lose the argument with me, you’ll find another set of arguments to maintain your position. Isn’t that so?
In other words you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people, right? You aren’t thinking, “What am I going to do if Mike unravels my anti-idol that I’ve built my religious service faith on protecting people from?” I just want you to know that I know that. And of course, you will (and have often) accuse me of the exact same; isn’t that right? You were sure you were right when you slaved for TWI, but now your are sure you are right, again. But THIS time you are really right….
*/*/*/*
So now I will begin my first attempt to answer you that will surely be rejected for something.
I have noticed that God uses angels to do a lot of things. In one account of the burning bush it looks like it is God himself, inside the bush talking to Moses. (Let’s keep the topic unde-railed by Great Principle talk here. Moses probably got spirit before this.)
In another account it talks about an angel in the bush operating the Ham Radio for God to speak to Moses. (or something like that)
*/*/*/*
On the Mount of the Transfiguration, there was a vision of Moses and Elijah, but we don’t hear that it was a vision until after it’s over and Jesus told them to be quiet about it.But that vision must have done a lot for them.It was for their believing, and Jesus’ also. But it wasn’t really Moses and Elijah present and alive and conscious. It looked that way to teach them something.
*/*/*/*
I have long tracked with “what is Jesus doing up there” ever since before that 1970s Way Magazine article appeared with that title.I was very eager to read it, but thought it did not go far enough, so I kept studying.
I came to realize that Jesus took Lucifer’s place as a leader (or coordinator) of angels.
God used angels in the OT a lot.There is an interesting account in the OT about this; I think in Daniel.If that is right, Daniel was praying and praying for some help with something, and nothing happens for a long time. Suddenly one day an angel shows up, and says something like “I’m here to help. Sorry I’m so late. I was detained for weeks struggling with some “big guy” out there.”
So, I get the impression that, though God has infinite power, He has limited it for various reasons, and must work within His own constructed framework.The spiritual battle in the OT is often one of God just barely winning, but often very cleverly. I get the impression He limits Himself to some kind of Intervention Budget, SO THAT He can limit the devil to the same one.I should start a thread on this someday.
So, where is this heading?
God’s budget in the spiritual battle got a big boost when Jesus joined Him on His right hand.Jesus now co-ordinates the angels and gets more done than God was able to in the OT.
I don't know where this "Let's forget Jesus, since he's absent" heresy came from, but I never got it from the collaterals or classes or SNT tapes or mag articles. I think it is a Corps related TVT that I never was hit with. I heard it in whisps at times, but I thought it was just people trying to "think it through." I know lots got bizzarre after 1986, and that heresy may have grown a lot then.
*/*/*/*/*
Ok, I think that above are the basic pieces to start to put together an understanding of all the scriptures of personal visits by Jesus in the scriptures, and in modern testimonies of healings as well.
Some of them could be the “real” Jesus showing up, just like angels would sometimes show up in OT situations.Some of them could be a “projected” Jesus for the believing of the recipient, like the way Peter, James, John, and Jesus were shown a teaching vision of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration.
Maybe some of the scriptures’ grammar configurations can tell us which type of “visit” the scripture is reporting on; maybe not.
**/*/*/*/*/*
Ok that is the short version.I gave you an hour. writing and polishing.I will look at the long list of scriptures you posted again, because some already have notes. I can respond more; but not now.
I just wanted to give you this preview summary, so that you could give me your preview summary of rejection.
*/*/*/*
And now for the excuses:
I have neglected all the other boys and girls here, so I want to pay attention to them also. You can wait for me, just like they have been patiently waiting.I know you can do it.
I also want to read Penworks’ book more, and work on my PFAL-T report for my TWI-4 friends.
AND one last big excuse:I am going dancing in a half hour.And I have a super early Believer Breakfast at Denny’s tomorrow (interdenominational). And then I have to work again, but I will bring a note from my boss (me), excusing me from blame.
I wonder if Mike got mixed up with his responses and who he was replying to…But it doesn’t matter…what’s really important is that in the mix-up Mike may have inadvertently revealed his motivation…the multi-quotes above are in sequential order – and I will make a few comments about each one to show Grease Spotters how I got to this discovery…My persistence in doing stuff like this is for the benefit of those still in The Way International…I don’t think Mike’s habit of denial is representative of many folks in TWI. At least I hope not – it probably becomes more prevalent the longer folks stay involved with a cult that encourages cognitive distortions .
Denial is a defense mechanism in which an individual refuses to recognize or acknowledge objective facts or experiences. It’s an unconscious process that serves to protect the person from discomfort or anxietyfrom: Denial | Psychology Today .
The road to discovery starts here( numbers in red correspond to above quoted posts)
1.Before I quote my post of January 25, 2023 at 1:25 AM, I want to give you some sense of what drove me to start questioning everything about wierwille. My cognitive skills were reawakened in the aftermath of Chris G reading the Passing of the Patriarch (which, I guess, was supposed to be something like wierwille’s last will and testament to the way corps) one night while I was in residence…It was like so many red flags that were heavily blanketed by the dust of denial were suddenly uncovered by tornadic storms of long forgotten doubts, questions and bad personal experiences in TWI…I began an intense review and reevaluation of wierwille’s teachings – in PFAL and beyond! I even looked into his credentials and things he claimed he accomplished – like “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses” . That is why
In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a person’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwilleliedabout something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand–but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher? …T-Bone quote
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2.On January 25th 2023 9:16 AM Mike quotes this portion of my post
“Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand–but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher?”T-Bone quote
And then Mike says this:
That is a very telling phrase: "...the foundation of my faith was built upon..."
I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar.
In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW.He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much.I am glad I didn't.I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible and especially Paul's Epistles to my mind so that I could use them to benefit my live and others.
The ministry was merely a vehicle to help this process in my mind.
My suspicions and respects toward VPW went up and down over the decades. But my understanding of the Bible has just increased and increased over the years, due to the start I got in PFAL.
I am so glad I built my faith on the Bible, and still do.”…Mike quote
Unless you are familiar with Mike’sunsolicited ‘tenure’ of 20 years at Grease Spot Café – you probably won’t see how laughable Mike’s hypocrisy is – as revealed in this typical response above. Mike has adopted wierwille’s position on a lot of stuff related to the Bible – but at this stage of his game Mike has mutated so much of wierwille’s doctrine that I bet wierwille himself probably wouldn’t recognize it…To be clear – Mike has NOTbuilt his faith on the Bible – rather he has complete confidencein what wierwille said about the Bible…and it’s usually after I open up and make myself vulnerable – that Mike likes to brag about his 'retroactive cognitive skills' to show how he was smarter than me and was not duped like I was – Mike said
In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the BibleMike quote
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3.On January 25th 2023 8:04 PM Mike said this in responding to OldSkool:
Now, let’s get up front about something.No matter what I write as a summary of handling that list, and no matter what amount of text I devote to each scripture, you will find SOMETHING(s) about it to totally reject it, and even if lose the argument with me, you’ll find another set of arguments to maintain your position. Isn’t that so?
In other words you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people, right?You aren’t thinking, “What am I going to do if Mike unravels my anti-idol that I’ve built my religious service faith on protecting people from?”I just want you to know that I know that. And of course, you will (and have often) accuse me of the exact same; isn’t that right?You were sure you were right when you slaved for TWI, but now your are sure you are right, again. But THIS time you are really right….Mike quote
This one really threw me. Why did Mike say you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people to OldSkool? I was the one who said I had an ominous feeling…dread...that I would I find I had based my confidence on the lies of a false teacher…Perhaps Mike got mixed up in his responses.
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What have we learned here?
I believe Mike’s habit of denial, obfuscating the evidence, ignoring doctrinal issues are some of the main reasons why folks are still trapped in The Way International.
A lot of Mike’s shtick is a caricature of the cult-mindset fostered in TWI. What it does is it gets people to disengage their cognitive skills.
~ ~ ~ ~
To all those still involved in The Way International and any of its offshoots, as a believer in our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I beg you in His name to check out threads that expose TWI for what it is – a whitewashed mausoleum of a dead cult-leader.
Check out this list of dubious doctrines taught in the 1967 PFAL class – that I made on another thread – and this is by no means complete. My challenge to all was to ask if all these questionable dogmas are still taught in the new PFAL Today. I have yet to get a definitive answer – you can see the list here > at least 28 problematic doctrines in PFAL
In analyzing wierwille’s dubious phrase the Word takes the place of the Absent Christ, I’ve thought about John 5:39 a few times:
Amplified Bible You search and keep on searching and examining the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and yet it is those [very Scriptures] that testify about Me…John 5:39
In a manner of speaking wierwille had me doing something similar. Without realizing it, I believed wierwille’s teaching on the Bible was transparent and was just the same as me reading the Bible for myself. I was not aware I had wierwille’s filter in my thought process. And not only that, I had this vague notion that “The Word” as taught by wierwille was the best and only substitute for a dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ.
Comparing the surety of "...Seems to me..." with the surety some theories in science enjoy is what I am focused at here.
My whole set of points here has to do with LEVELS of SURETY that different sciences (and different theories) enjoy. That is a subtle topic.
It's also attempting to move the goalpost. Otherwise, why didn't you mention surety sooner?
59 minutes ago, Mike said:
Tyson presents the Big Bang as if it enjoys the extreme surety that Physics in general enjoys compared to the other sciences.
And you know this how? You get your mind reading license?
59 minutes ago, Mike said:
But what he hides here is that within Physics, the Big Bang is at the bottom of the SURETY list. It has none of the type of surety many theories in Physics enjoy.
Again, you know this how? Sure, big bang isn't as proven as gravity, but then neither is drifting continents, the moon capture theory, or the creation of the solar system (according to your criteria that we can't rewind time and run it forward to redo it).
59 minutes ago, Mike said:
Surety is measured by the number of significant figures a theoretically predicted number matches with it's corresponding number, which is measured in a laboratory.
And now the derailment of the Absent Christ is REALLY over the line.
I was only trying to give a tiny answer to Nathan_Jr.
Well, you failed. Because according to your criteria a lot of astronomy and geology are false because we can't replicate them. Further, how much in the bible can we replicate?
59 minutes ago, Mike said:
Oh well. I am now overloaded with a large backup of posts on two threads that I really want to respond to, so let's PLEASE leave this off-topic tangent.
I wonder if Mike got mixed up with his responses and who he was replying to…
Oh, yes, that definitely happened.
I am so swamped by posts that keeping track of "who" gets lost in the shuffle, as well as "which thread is which" gets lost.
The interesting posts I want to respond to are many, but piled on top of them are posts like yours here, that are basically an investigation of me. I wish we could avoid making me the topic of discussion, but I understand the reasons why. I am too effective at presenting opposing views, and they must be silenced or buried.
I am so swamped by posts that keeping track of "who" gets lost in the shuffle, as well as "which thread is which" gets lost.
The interesting posts I want to respond to are many, but piled on top of them are posts like yours here, that are basically an investigation of me. I wish we could avoid making me the topic of discussion, but I understand the reasons why. I am too effective at presenting opposing views, and they must be silenced or buried.
Don’t fret Mike – rather than you being the topic of discussion, I like to think your posts are a good springboard for me to engage the folks at The Way International…My posts are not an investigation of you – like I’m examining a crime or problemor trying to solve some mystery. You’re much too inflationary about your ego. But your dodge, distract, and derailer tactics make great target practice for the Socratic method as well as highlight what a worst case scenario of a wierwille infused mindset might look like – in that regard you are very useful as a poster child for the most unpleasant and serious thing that could happen to a PFAL grad. Normally I don’t like to motivate others by fear – but some TWI-followers are a hard-sell - so I don’t want to silence you or bury you – I want to show you off – and thanks for your help demonstrating the risks of following a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult-leader like victor paul wierwille.
In case you haven’t noticed the change in my tact – I usually end a post with a ‘secret altar call’ – by summoning any folks at The Way International to make a new spiritual commitment to Jesus Christ in whatever way the Holy Spirit moves them…Grease Spot Café doesn’t have to know…The Way International doesn’t have to know…shingles doesn’t care…My hope is that folks will check out the threads we recommend …and books we recommend - like Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International
I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that Mike discards the Big Bang Theory for Steady State.
Of the two, the Big Bang Theory fits in better with the Bible, and its history should surprise nobody who knows that. Steady State's main support is PHILOSOPHICAL, and reflects more of what some scientists WANT to believe rather than what the evidence reflects. Due to evidence of the last 1 1/2 centuries, it's less popular than it used to be since the evidence for it still hasn't appeared, and evidence for the Big Bang Theory HAS. In fact, they found what you should expect to find if the BBT is correct. As for Steady State, it's still desired and still has no evidence for it, so its current adherents have been trying to shoehorn it into the BBT. They say- again, because it's philosophically comfortable, not because there's any evidence- that there's an endless cycle of Big Bangs alternating with Big Crunchs. There's no evidence there ever was one, or there were 2 Big Bangs, but Steady State isn't about good science, it's about dogmatic scientists making a leap of faith (often while deriding the other side for any leaps of faith.)
Mike may have gotten some science here and there by osmosis, but if he's really a Steady State adherent, his overall grasp is rubbish. Frankly, this should surprise few by now.
And now the derailment of the Absent Christ is REALLY over the line.
I was only trying to give a tiny answer to Nathan_Jr.
Oh well. I am now overloaded with a large backup of posts on two threads that I really want to respond to, so let's PLEASE leave this off-topic tangent. Actually I have no where near the time for handling them tonight, so I'm just planting my excuse here, for not responding to so many posts.
I mean this as respectfully as possible, but at times you sound like a BS artist.
I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that Mike discards the Big Bang Theory for Steady State.
Once again, your gotcha filter caused you to be totally wrong here on this point.
I do NOT support the Steady State conjecture.
If you go back and read for genuine understanding what I wrote, you will see that I was decrying the fraudulent reporting of SURETY attached to the Big Bang, as if it had been proved with all the big guns of sure science.
I'm not saying I support Steady State, I'm saying that the "proof" of the Big Bang is shakey, and that uncertainty is hidden for purposes of establishing a State controlled science/religion.
Already the science/medical religious kingdom of the adversary is uniting with the globalist government kingdom to someday form a State Religion for cosmology, Earth's history, and of course climate.
It is the false surety of the Big Bang that I decry. Please re-read and maybe you will see that.
Surety's definition is evolving from counting the significant figures in a match, to counting the votes that will transfer political power. "The People have voted for the Big Bang so it is sure" will be the mindset that embraces false surety, as it already is in some quarters.
I mean this as respectfully as possible, but at times you sound like a BS artist.
I wasn't BSing there. I was merely saying again (in another way), that if any thoughtful posts on the Bible or what we were taught in PFAL got buried, PLEASE re-post them.
I am pretty good at reading and responding to short current posts, but when there is a large flurry of many posts in one hour, or a few long posts overnight, I get way behind and don't mean to ignore so many posts. Many of the long ones lately I have not even had time to carefully and thoroughly read,
There need not be a point ever made if the goal is attention.
WHY would I want all this negative, insult saturated "attention" ?
I feel a duty to bring up things that, to me, are obviously missing to the story that is presented here. I press on with this duty IN SPITE of all the negative attention, not to generate it.
Physicists are only as sure as the evidence they can observe.
Scientists add to and change positions and theories based on observable evidence every day. Always have.
Flat Earthers are not scientists, but they sure are sure in spite of the evidence. Same goes for Four Crucifiers - dogmatic surety in spite of the evidence.
I wasn't BSing there. I was merely saying again (in another way), that if any thoughtful posts on the Bible or what we were taught in PFAL got buried, PLEASE re-post them.
I am pretty good at reading and responding to short current posts, but when there is a large flurry of many posts in one hour, or a few long posts overnight, I get way behind and don't mean to ignore so many posts. Many of the long ones lately I have not even had time to carefully and thoroughly read,
I'm not saying you are I'm just saying how it comes across at times. I mean you no disrespect at all.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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So_crates
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Mike
Tyson is one of the TV stars that I was talking about.
He butchers his review of the Steady State conjecture.
He avoids the main objection to Big Bang confirmation, that the Red Shift is a pure doppler effect, while claiming to cover the objections.
So_crates, that confirms everything I said. Even repeatability is in there, but then, very dishonestly, it is loosely associated with confirming Big Bang.
Tyson is a genuine physicist, and doubles as a chief priest in the Big Bang religion. This video confirms, for me and those who remember the Steady State conjecture, everything I said above about the dishonesty in academia being pounded into mass media for population acceptance.
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So_crates
Did we watch the same video? Or did you do your usual watch until you find something you disagree with and then stop the video?
Did you get past 5:25 where he explained how science worked?
It's not surprising it confirms what you said, as you hear what you want to hear and ignore everything else.
The red shift is pure Doppler effect. Okay, I buy that. The red shift is cause by light waves being stretched out as the star or galaxy races away from us, as they would from a massive explosion. Seems to me this supports the big bang.
If your protest about the big bang is because it isn't biblical. Does the bible tell us how God created the universe? Could the big bang be one possible way?
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Nathan_Jr
I try to teach my son how (H-O-W) to find out. I try to teach him how (H-O-W) to research. (He knows the accurate meaning of that word.) How to question, inquire, test, doubt. How to always follow the evidence wherever it might lead - especially evidence presented after he thinks he knows.
I try to teach him that dogma is rarely good.
I try to teach him to pay attention to his own confirmation bias and to be aware of biases held by others.
I try to teach him the more he embraces the not knowing, the more he can know.
HOWEVER,
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Mike
No, it has nothing to do with the Bible.
Comparing the surety of "...Seems to me..." with the surety some theories in science enjoy is what I am focused at here.
My whole set of points here has to do with LEVELS of SURETY that different sciences (and different theories) enjoy. That is a subtle topic.
Tyson presents the Big Bang as if it enjoys the extreme surety that Physics in general enjoys compared to the other sciences.
But what he hides here is that within Physics, the Big Bang is at the bottom of the SURETY list. It has none of the type of surety many theories in Physics enjoy.
Surety is measured by the number of significant figures a theoretically predicted number matches with it's corresponding number, which is measured in a laboratory.
And now the derailment of the Absent Christ is REALLY over the line.
I was only trying to give a tiny answer to Nathan_Jr.
Oh well. I am now overloaded with a large backup of posts on two threads that I really want to respond to, so let's PLEASE leave this off-topic tangent. Actually I have no where near the time for handling them tonight, so I'm just planting my excuse here, for not responding to so many posts.
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Bolshevik
Not clear on the scope of this jealousy. His surety comes from a natural passion for a big bang... .I mean science.
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Nathan_Jr
As far as I can tell, the current consensus among physicists and cosmologists is that there is more evidence supporting the Big Bang and sufficient evidence refuting Steady State.
The evidence is complicated, but it's available. One can find out for one's self if one cares to go beyond what one has been taught.
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Bolshevik
I think time can be calculated back to a singularity, what would be the Big Bang, maybe. It's an extrapolation from the expansion of the universe. The Big Bang itself has no calculation.
Usually when people say Big Bang, it means that moment we're not sure of.
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Nathan_Jr
Yes.
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Bolshevik
And we know that we know yay for ashurity, The Great Principle has no evidence whatsoever.
To speak of the GP with extreme surety is poor academics.
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T-Bone
I wonder if Mike got mixed up with his responses and who he was replying to…But it doesn’t matter…what’s really important is that in the mix-up Mike may have inadvertently revealed his motivation…the multi-quotes above are in sequential order – and I will make a few comments about each one to show Grease Spotters how I got to this discovery…My persistence in doing stuff like this is for the benefit of those still in The Way International…I don’t think Mike’s habit of denial is representative of many folks in TWI. At least I hope not – it probably becomes more prevalent the longer folks stay involved with a cult that encourages cognitive distortions .
Denial is a defense mechanism in which an individual refuses to recognize or acknowledge objective facts or experiences. It’s an unconscious process that serves to protect the person from discomfort or anxiety from: Denial | Psychology Today .
See also:
Denial (Freud) - Wikipedia
50 Common Cognitive Distortions | Psychology Today
~ ~ ~ ~
The road to discovery starts here( numbers in red correspond to above quoted posts)
1.Before I quote my post of January 25, 2023 at 1:25 AM, I want to give you some sense of what drove me to start questioning everything about wierwille. My cognitive skills were reawakened in the aftermath of Chris G reading the Passing of the Patriarch (which, I guess, was supposed to be something like wierwille’s last will and testament to the way corps ) one night while I was in residence…It was like so many red flags that were heavily blanketed by the dust of denial were suddenly uncovered by tornadic storms of long forgotten doubts, questions and bad personal experiences in TWI…I began an intense review and reevaluation of wierwille’s teachings – in PFAL and beyond! I even looked into his credentials and things he claimed he accomplished – like “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses” . That is why
In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a person’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher? … T-Bone quote
~ ~ ~ ~
2. On January 25th 2023 9:16 AM Mike quotes this portion of my post
“Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher?” T-Bone quote
And then Mike says this:
That is a very telling phrase: "...the foundation of my faith was built upon..."
I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar.
In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible and especially Paul's Epistles to my mind so that I could use them to benefit my live and others.
The ministry was merely a vehicle to help this process in my mind.
My suspicions and respects toward VPW went up and down over the decades. But my understanding of the Bible has just increased and increased over the years, due to the start I got in PFAL.
I am so glad I built my faith on the Bible, and still do.”…Mike quote
Unless you are familiar with Mike’s unsolicited ‘tenure’ of 20 years at Grease Spot Café – you probably won’t see how laughable Mike’s hypocrisy is – as revealed in this typical response above. Mike has adopted wierwille’s position on a lot of stuff related to the Bible – but at this stage of his game Mike has mutated so much of wierwille’s doctrine that I bet wierwille himself probably wouldn’t recognize it…To be clear – Mike has NOT built his faith on the Bible – rather he has complete confidence in what wierwille said about the Bible…and it’s usually after I open up and make myself vulnerable – that Mike likes to brag about his 'retroactive cognitive skills'
to show how he was smarter than me and was not duped like I was – Mike said
In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible Mike quote
~ ~ ~ ~
3.On January 25th 2023 8:04 PM Mike said this in responding to OldSkool:
Now, let’s get up front about something. No matter what I write as a summary of handling that list, and no matter what amount of text I devote to each scripture, you will find SOMETHING(s) about it to totally reject it, and even if lose the argument with me, you’ll find another set of arguments to maintain your position. Isn’t that so?
In other words you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people, right? You aren’t thinking, “What am I going to do if Mike unravels my anti-idol that I’ve built my religious service faith on protecting people from?” I just want you to know that I know that. And of course, you will (and have often) accuse me of the exact same; isn’t that right? You were sure you were right when you slaved for TWI, but now your are sure you are right, again. But THIS time you are really right….Mike quote
This one really threw me. Why did Mike say you don’t have ANY odd feeling right now like you did with the Moody Bible people to OldSkool? I was the one who said I had an ominous feeling…dread...that I would I find I had based my confidence on the lies of a false teacher…Perhaps Mike got mixed up in his responses.
~ ~ ~ ~
What have we learned here?
I believe Mike’s habit of denial, obfuscating the evidence, ignoring doctrinal issues are some of the main reasons why folks are still trapped in The Way International.
A lot of Mike’s shtick is a caricature of the cult-mindset fostered in TWI. What it does is it gets people to disengage their cognitive skills.
~ ~ ~ ~
To all those still involved in The Way International and any of its offshoots, as a believer in our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I beg you in His name to check out threads that expose TWI for what it is – a whitewashed mausoleum of a dead cult-leader.
Check out this list of dubious doctrines taught in the 1967 PFAL class – that I made on another thread – and this is by no means complete. My challenge to all was to ask if all these questionable dogmas are still taught in the new PFAL Today. I have yet to get a definitive answer – you can see the list here > at least 28 problematic doctrines in PFAL
and check out these other threads:
The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write The Book?
wierwille’s pathological ministry
wierwille wanted to control the money
The Way: Living in Wonderland
The Secret Agenda Society
TWI the pseudo-Christian cult
TWI servitude
Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps
The Original Letter Sent to TWI by top leaders leaving
~ ~ ~ ~
In analyzing wierwille’s dubious phrase the Word takes the place of the Absent Christ, I’ve thought about John 5:39 a few times:
Amplified Bible
You search and keep on searching and examining the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and yet it is those [very Scriptures] that testify about Me…John 5:39
In a manner of speaking wierwille had me doing something similar. Without realizing it, I believed wierwille’s teaching on the Bible was transparent and was just the same as me reading the Bible for myself. I was not aware I had wierwille’s filter in my thought process. And not only that, I had this vague notion that “The Word” as taught by wierwille was the best and only substitute for a dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ.
That’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Boneadd that emoji !
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So_crates
It's also attempting to move the goalpost. Otherwise, why didn't you mention surety sooner?
And you know this how? You get your mind reading license?
Again, you know this how? Sure, big bang isn't as proven as gravity, but then neither is drifting continents, the moon capture theory, or the creation of the solar system (according to your criteria that we can't rewind time and run it forward to redo it).
Well, you failed. Because according to your criteria a lot of astronomy and geology are false because we can't replicate them. Further, how much in the bible can we replicate?
Hey, you started it.
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Mike
Oh, yes, that definitely happened.
I am so swamped by posts that keeping track of "who" gets lost in the shuffle, as well as "which thread is which" gets lost.
The interesting posts I want to respond to are many, but piled on top of them are posts like yours here, that are basically an investigation of me. I wish we could avoid making me the topic of discussion, but I understand the reasons why. I am too effective at presenting opposing views, and they must be silenced or buried.
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So_crates
Or you're so ineffective at presenting opposing propaganda, that we have to waste bandwidth correcting you.
You're a legend in your own mind.
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T-Bone
Don’t fret Mike – rather than you being the topic of discussion, I like to think your posts are a good springboard for me to engage the folks at The Way International…My posts are not an investigation of you – like I’m examining a crime or problem or trying to solve some mystery. You’re much too inflationary about your ego. But your dodge, distract, and derailer tactics make great target practice for the Socratic method as well as highlight what a worst case scenario of a wierwille infused mindset might look like – in that regard you are very useful as a poster child for the most unpleasant and serious thing that could happen to a PFAL grad. Normally I don’t like to motivate others by fear – but some TWI-followers are a hard-sell - so I don’t want to silence you or bury you – I want to show you off – and thanks for your help demonstrating the risks of following a pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult-leader like victor paul wierwille.
In case you haven’t noticed the change in my tact – I usually end a post with a ‘secret altar call’ – by summoning any folks at The Way International to make a new spiritual commitment to Jesus Christ in whatever way the Holy Spirit moves them…Grease Spot Café doesn’t have to know…The Way International doesn’t have to know…shingles doesn’t care…
My hope is that folks will check out the threads we recommend …and books we recommend - like Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International
Edited by T-Bonetypo-nator strikes again
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WordWolf
I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that Mike discards the Big Bang Theory for Steady State.
Of the two, the Big Bang Theory fits in better with the Bible, and its history should surprise nobody who knows that. Steady State's main support is PHILOSOPHICAL, and reflects more of what some scientists WANT to believe rather than what the evidence reflects. Due to evidence of the last 1 1/2 centuries, it's less popular than it used to be since the evidence for it still hasn't appeared, and evidence for the Big Bang Theory HAS. In fact, they found what you should expect to find if the BBT is correct. As for Steady State, it's still desired and still has no evidence for it, so its current adherents have been trying to shoehorn it into the BBT. They say- again, because it's philosophically comfortable, not because there's any evidence- that there's an endless cycle of Big Bangs alternating with Big Crunchs. There's no evidence there ever was one, or there were 2 Big Bangs, but Steady State isn't about good science, it's about dogmatic scientists making a leap of faith (often while deriding the other side for any leaps of faith.)
Mike may have gotten some science here and there by osmosis, but if he's really a Steady State adherent, his overall grasp is rubbish. Frankly, this should surprise few by now.
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OldSkool
I mean this as respectfully as possible, but at times you sound like a BS artist.
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Bolshevik
There need not be a point ever made if the goal is attention.
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Mike
Once again, your gotcha filter caused you to be totally wrong here on this point.
I do NOT support the Steady State conjecture.
If you go back and read for genuine understanding what I wrote, you will see that I was decrying the fraudulent reporting of SURETY attached to the Big Bang, as if it had been proved with all the big guns of sure science.
I'm not saying I support Steady State, I'm saying that the "proof" of the Big Bang is shakey, and that uncertainty is hidden for purposes of establishing a State controlled science/religion.
Already the science/medical religious kingdom of the adversary is uniting with the globalist government kingdom to someday form a State Religion for cosmology, Earth's history, and of course climate.
It is the false surety of the Big Bang that I decry. Please re-read and maybe you will see that.
Surety's definition is evolving from counting the significant figures in a match, to counting the votes that will transfer political power. "The People have voted for the Big Bang so it is sure" will be the mindset that embraces false surety, as it already is in some quarters.
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Mike
I wasn't BSing there. I was merely saying again (in another way), that if any thoughtful posts on the Bible or what we were taught in PFAL got buried, PLEASE re-post them.
I am pretty good at reading and responding to short current posts, but when there is a large flurry of many posts in one hour, or a few long posts overnight, I get way behind and don't mean to ignore so many posts. Many of the long ones lately I have not even had time to carefully and thoroughly read,
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Mike
WHY would I want all this negative, insult saturated "attention" ?
I feel a duty to bring up things that, to me, are obviously missing to the story that is presented here. I press on with this duty IN SPITE of all the negative attention, not to generate it.
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Nathan_Jr
Physicists are only as sure as the evidence they can observe.
Scientists add to and change positions and theories based on observable evidence every day. Always have.
Flat Earthers are not scientists, but they sure are sure in spite of the evidence. Same goes for Four Crucifiers - dogmatic surety in spite of the evidence.
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OldSkool
I'm not saying you are I'm just saying how it comes across at times. I mean you no disrespect at all.
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Mike
Thank you. I appreciate that.
If it is any consolation to you, I realize that I come across that way at times.
I try my best to avoid it and/or fix it, but the misunderstandings grow faster than I can fix them.
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