Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are inblue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father,and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
Who says phenomena can't REVEAL information, and thus be a revelation?
Literally no one. You're playing games with definitions again.
People have revelations all the time. Information is revealed to them that they previously didn't have. What is that? It's revelation. Is it supernatural? Well, I guess the possibility exists, but it's not what is typically being implied.
If you need a refresher on what Wierwille meant by "revelation", might I suggest you revisit pages 5-7 of the Advanced Class syllabus? This is where he offers up his definitions of "revelation", which, by the way, he copied almost word for word from a source he failed to disclose.
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are inblue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father,and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Hey, Mike --- you wanna take a crack at explaining away these scriptures? I will keep adding as we move along but feel free to hop on in.
Hey, Mike --- you wanna take a crack at explaining away these scriptures? I will keep adding as we move along but feel free to hop on in.
Great Scott!!! (whatever that means?)
Why don't you conscript me into your On-Line Theology Class or something? That is a week's worth of homework for me! loL
I loved the way you started out, with the nice blue formatting. I looked at the first scripture, and the second,.... both familiar, and more, and more familiar, and more.... then the list got a little bit longer than I was expecting. I felt a bit overwhelmed by the volume.
But thanks. I saved it for a rainy day. I might look thru it for a super cool one to respond to sooner. Might you do the same? Isolate one of those scriptures most burning to you?
I got 3 more sunny days to work, and then it rains again.
Why don't you conscript me into your On-Line Theology Class or something? That is a week's worth of homework for me! loL
I loved the way you started out, with the nice blue formatting. I looked at the first scripture, and the second,.... both familiar, and more, and more familiar, and more.... then the list got a little bit longer than I was expecting. I felt a bit overwhelmed by the volume.
But thanks. I saved it for a rainy day. I might look thru it for a super cool one to respond to sooner. Might you do the same? Isolate one of those scriptures most burning to you?
I got 3 more sunny days to work, and then it rains again.
Excuses excuses. Mike - I have put absolute minimal effort in copying these scriptures. All thats required is to read them and note the language employed...no research required...your making excuses at this point. Feeling overwhelmed is likepy appropriate as there is overwhelming evidence showing that Christ isn't absent but actively functions in directing the affairs of the Church and taking care of his people. Jesus Christ is the prominent one and its God who made him prominent.
As far as I know, a surprisingly large number of grads thought VPW was claiming "divine dictation." I have encountered several here over the years.
Another point: MOST of VPW's research was 5-senses. The abundance of revelations that did happen were spread out over 42.5 years. There was a greater abundance of simple senses study.
Hi Mike,
As far as you know = the extent that your knowledge reaches = 20 years on Grease Spot Café of you reaching no further than your confirmation bias.
You consistently exhibit a tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports the high regard you have for wierwille and PFAL…Confirmation bias cannot be eliminated, but it can be managed, for example, by education and training in critical thinking skills.
If you are not aware that your posts reflect someone who has no capacity to distinguish truth from lies or differentiate fact from fiction – perhaps you should seek a communication consultant - - or help from professional mental health personnel.
If you are not conscious that you often turn a blind eye to the infamous moral depravity of wierwille – perhaps it means your conscience has been cauterized by the hypocritical and callous nature of wierwille / PFAL. Maybe be honest during self-examination – something we should all do periodically in the way of Matthew 7
In the 17 years that I have been coming to Grease Spot Café and getting to know your ‘mystifying’ and shape-shifting viewpoint, I suspect there’s more issues than meets the eye – I’m just not sure what they are. The only reason I make the time and effort to respond to your nonsense is for the sake of those still in bondage to the pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult, The Way International. Any reasonable person comparing the thought content of your posts and most other Grease Spotters is more likely to come away with the thought that you are utterly confused – exemplifying how detrimental to one’s cognitive skills wierwille / PFAL can be if that is one’s only rule for faith and practice.
There is no denying you have some deeply entrenched attitudes that encourage others to accept wierwille and PFAL without serious questions. The purpose of this website demands a rational response to such nonsense.
You can make all the claims you want about a surprisingly large number of grads thought VPW was claiming divine dictation….you have encountered several here over the years – but it means nothing from a person who has zero credibility!
How trustworthy is a person if they are incapable of recognizing the difference of truth from lies, fact from fiction?
What does it say about one’s moral compass if they make wierwille’s corruption and hypocrisy like it’s no big deal?
~ ~ ~ ~
The honest counterpointto your Another point: MOST of VPW's research was 5-senses, is that wierwille searched…hunted…found what seemed to be attractive money-making ideas in the works of others – and pirated them! He made like he came up with all that stuff – with God’s guidance of course! That’s stealing and lying!
You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. Exodus 20
12 hours ago, Mike said:
That is a very telling phrase: "...the foundation of my faith was built upon..."
I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar.
In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible and especially Paul's Epistles to my mind so that I could use them to benefit my live and others.
The ministry was merely a vehicle to help this process in my mind.
My suspicions and respects toward VPW went up and down over the decades. But my understanding of the Bible has just increased and increased over the years, due to the start I got in PFAL.
I am so glad I built my faith on the Bible, and still do.
Sorry to burst your bubble – you so quickly come to the defense of all the lies, illogic, moral depravity, and hypocrisy of wierwille / PFAL... ...you reveal to others what you are unaware of – that you have indeed built your faith on wierwille / PFAL.
We defend to the hilt whatever is most precious to us.
Excuses excuses. Mike - I have put absolute minimal effort in copying these scriptures. All thats required is to read them and note the language employed...no research required...your making excuses at this point.
I have VALID reasons, and you are not in a position to judge how well I judged HOW valid they are.
You are acting like a Corps controller again with that comment, calling my valid reasons, flimsy excuses. Why do you want to cheapen a discussion with points like that? They don't influence me any. Do you think they influence others who are reading this? Is that why you call my valid reasons mere excuses? Are you trying to control the minds of readers?
I have VALID reasons, and you are not in a position to judge how well I judged HOW valid they are.
You are acting like a Corps controller again with that comment, calling my valid reasons, flimsy excuses. Why do you want to cheapen a discussion with points like that? They don't influence me any. Do you think they influence others who are reading this? Is that why you call my valid reasons mere excuses? Are you trying to control the minds of readers?
Your on a thread titled the Absent Christ? -- which I started many moons ago. You have spent dang near 63 pages pushing wierwille's absent Christ doctrine as Biblical and now I challenge you on the topic with a list of scriptures and somehow I am villified for participating in this discussion? Make that make sense.
Now your cognitive dissonance really kicks in causing that discomfort that happens when your false reality is challenged, that countefeit reality is caused by wierwille's doctrines because they blind a person to what scripture actually says.
Calling you out on your excuses is proper in this case.
BTW - you are responding with a logic fallacy called a red herring. You are attempting to reroute the topic onto me when it should be on the content.
In the 17 years that I have been coming to Grease Spot Café and getting to know your ‘mystifying’ and shape-shifting viewpoint, I suspect there’s more issues than meets the eye – I’m just not sure what they are.
Might I suggest it may have to do with a blatant disdain for anything Way Corps, as well as academia, related?
Excuses excuses. Mike - I have put absolute minimal effort in copying these scriptures. All thats required is to read them and note the language employed...no research required...your making excuses at this point. Feeling overwhelmed is likepy appropriate as there is overwhelming evidence showing that Christ isn't absent but actively functions in directing the affairs of the Church and taking care of his people. Jesus Christ is the prominent one and its God who made him prominent.
Reading I can do relatively fast, even with my (excuses?) vision impairment. But writing responses can take hours, and often does.
I am reading/writing overwhelmed usually with T-Bone and WW, and now you jump on the pile. That is happening right now, and the timestamps are ample evidence..
There are WAY too many long, long posts for me to respond to right now, and for many other valid reason, and possibly a couple of flimsy excuses (because I am human), you'll just have to hold your breath waiting for me to respond to all this huge volume of text.
*/*/*/*/*
I'll read things later, after work, and see what looks interesting and worth responding to.
As I said before, if there is one burning item you could isolate and put into a post of not too many paragraphs, please do it.
I can make time for one burning item, but after glass work and home chores are done. I am swamped with both.
Reading I can do relatively fast, even with my (excuses?) vision impairment. But writing responses can take hours, and often does.
I am reading/writing overwhelmed usually with T-Bone and WW, and now you jump on the pile. That is happening right now, and the timestamps are ample evidence..
There are WAY too many long, long posts for me to respond to right now, and for many other valid reason, and possibly a couple of flimsy excuses (because I am human), you'll just have to hold your breath waiting for me to respond to all this huge volume of text.
*/*/*/*/*
I'll read things later, after work, and see what looks interesting and worth responding to.
As I said before, if there is one burning item you could isolate and put into a post of not too many paragraphs, please do it.
I can make time for one burning item, but after glass work and home chores are done. I am swamped with both.
I never expected you to respond and you proved my point once again. You arent here for honest discussion. When offered honest discussion you run for the hills. Being stubborn to what scripture actually says isnt a trait you should cherish but reject.
I posted the verses and comments for people reading along. I never expected anything from you except to be you and you didnt disappoint.
Your on a thread titled the Absent Christ? -- which I started many moons ago. You have spent dang near 63 pages pushing wierwille's absent Christ doctrine as Biblical and now I challenge you on the topic with a list of scriptures and somehow I am villified for participating in this discussion? Make that make sense.
Now your cognitive dissonance really kicks in causing that discomfort that happens when your false reality is challenged, that countefeit reality is caused by wierwille's doctrines because they blind a person to what scripture actually says.
Calling you out on your excuses is proper in this case.
BTW - you are responding with a logic fallacy called a red herring. You are attempting to reroute the topic onto me when it should be on the content.
No. I am reading these things as I wait for the sun to warm things up here.
I can't remember the origins of this thread. I thought you invited me here, or something like that.
I'm not vilifying you for bringing up the scriptures. I felt like you were rushing me. I feel rushed by my customers right now too. LoL
I recognize how important it is that we all understand those scriptures properly, and in the 1970s I was all over them to the best of my ability. It is a very large topic and I have finite time.
No. I am reading these things as I wait for the sun to warm things up here.
I can't remember the origins of this thread. I thought you invited me here, or something like that.
I'm not vilifying you for bringing up the scriptures. I felt like you were rushing me. I feel rushed by my customers right now too. LoL
I recognize how important it is that we all understand those scriptures properly, and in the 1970s I was all over them to the best of my ability. It is a very large topic and I have finite time.
Its really not that difficult to read scripture for what it says. Im not rushing you I am trying to help you see what you are missing. I have no evil intent and Im not trying to attack you. When I tell you I missed the entire boat by not understanding who Jesus Christ actually is and how he functions. I was blinded by the statement "The Word of God takes the place of the Absent Christ" --- scripture plainly shows he isnt absent.
I never expected you to respond and you proved my point once again. You arent here for honest discussion. When offered honest discussion you run for the hills. Being stubborn to what scripture actually says isnt a trait you should cherish but reject.
I posted the verses and comments for people reading along. I never expected anything from you except to be you and you didnt disappoint.
NO. When I feel forced or rushed into a very large discussion I start looking at my clock to see how much time I have for it. You interpret that wrongly.
**/*/*
"I posted the verses and comments for people reading along. I never expected anything from you except to be you and you didnt disappoint."
Ohhhhhhh! Oops! I never thought of that. I forgot we are on stage.
OK. Then me saving the list for a rainy day should be cool with you?
NO. When I feel forced or rushed into a very large discussion I start looking at my clock to see how much time I have for it. You interpret that wrongly.
**/*/*
"I posted the verses and comments for people reading along. I never expected anything from you except to be you and you didnt disappoint."
Ohhhhhhh! Oops! I never thought of that. I forgot we are on stage.
OK. Then me saving the list for a rainy day should be cool with you?
As I said, i really did post those verses for the benefit of those reading along.
May I ask why you need so much time to discuss a few verses? They all follow the same basic topic: Christ's Lordship and function. Has PFAL made it difficult to just read what is written? Do you need to go comb through the collaterals and other such publications to organize a response? It's simple. Scripture either supports Christ as absent and mostly inactive or non-absent and quite active even to the point of interacting with folks like us.
Its really not that difficult to read scripture for what it says. Im not rushing you I am trying to help you see what you are missing. I have no evil intent and Im not trying to attack you. When I tell you I missed the entire boat by not understanding who Jesus Christ actually is and how he functions. I was blinded by the statement "The Word of God takes the place of the Absent Christ" --- scripture plainly shows he isnt absent.
scripture plainly shows he isnt PRESENT like he was before the Ascension.
That is the thrust of all my efforts in this thread. I think that was the thrust of VPW's also.
It is in examining WHAT God made different and WHY He made it different on the day of the Ascension that interests me most.
I am not that interested in defending VPW's use of that one word, one time in the curriculum.
But WHY did God make something different that day is the key.
scripture plainly shows he isnt PRESENT like he was before the Ascension.
That is the thrust of all my efforts in this thread. I think that was the thrust of VPW's also.
It is in examining WHAT God made different and WHY He made it different on the day of the Ascension that interests me most.
I am not that interested in defending VPW's use of that one word, one time in the curriculum.
But WHY did God make something different that day is the key.
Christs function changed from being the passover and fulfiling the law to being the Captian of our Salvation as the head of the Body, his Church. He was changed to a life giving spirit and we no longer know him after the flesh. He has been clothed in majesty and is sitting in plain sight for those who care to try to find him.
Im going after wierwille's absent Christ doctrine because it hems up people to this day. The way international is wierwilles legacy and they still teach the absent Christ error by stating the Word of God take the place of the Absent Christ. That is an eggregious dosctinal error.
Scripture supports a BIG CHANGE on the day of the Ascension.
Thats all Im trying to get you to see. I have no desire to insult you, attack you, belittle you. I will leave you alone at this point on the topic. Im open to discussion at any point in time. Thanks for considering!
It is a love/hate thing for them both [CORPS and academia].
I see the good reasons for both, and the successes, but I also see the EXTREME failures that get covered up.
What are some examples of academic failures that are covered up?
Hundreds, even oodles and thousands, of victor paul wierwille’s errors and failures have been uncovered here and elsewhere. This was always his greatest fear. All NPDs dread being exposed for the frauds they are. Victor was a master at covering up and deflecting.
In academia, workmen worthy of their hire earn increased credibility and reward for falsifying their own propositions and theories. (Read that again.) Papers are eagerly presented to peers for review - critical examination of one’s work is sought after, hoped for, desired.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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OldSkool
Well, let's look at Jesus Christ from scripture and try to gain a more comprehensive viewpoint of how he interacts with his Church. My comments are in blue...hopefully that helps with readibility.
First we will establish that we ARE to have fellowship with God's son Jesus Christ. The way international forbids their followers from interacting with Jesus Christ, yet scripture says:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Second, let's handle the obvious: Jesus Christ is not present on earth in a flesh and blood body as recorded in the gospels. Jesus Christ was ascended to the right hand of God as recorded in the book of Acts. Please note in the Book of Acts and in the Church epistles as well as the Gospels when the word Lord is used it usually refers to Jesus Christ with some exceptions where the old Testament is quoted, etc.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. ( Notice Jesus says I will send him unto you)
Acts 1:8,9
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
--> Now this is where wierwille's doctrine stops. Jesus Christ is ascended and is seated at the right hand of God and doesnt do much except have his name attached to the end of a prayer and we benefit from his accomplsished works. Half truths at best. Now let's see how Jesus Christ himself interacted with his Church in the book of Acts, Epistles, etc. I wont comment much because scripture is quite obvious, as is the nature of most scripture. First off, though, a quick trip to the gospels to establish something important.
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand
--> God has literally given all things into Christs hands...when will Jesus Christ give it all back?
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
--> So God has given all things into Christs hands and Jesus Christ will subdue all things under his feet and give it all back to God that God may be all in all!
--> Jesus said in John 16:7 that he (Jesus) would send the comforter. In the book of Acts that prophecy is fullfilled:
Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
--> Literally Jesus received of the Father the gift of holy spirit and poured it out on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
--> Jesus Christ adds to the Church, Jesus Christ is in charge of people being born again and it is the Lord that adds to his body.
Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
--> Jesus Christ appears to Ananias in a vision. He also appeared to Saul.
Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
--> Jesus Christ taught Paul by Revelation the content of the epistles he authored. This pattern holds true all throughout the new Testamend.
I am being brief on purpose. This is literally the tip of the iceberg. Once I chucked the absent Christ heresay and actually started reading what the Bible actually says it was very revealing. Christ is very active in interactin with his Church. He has never been absent. He has been changed into a life giving spirit and is no longer flesh and blood: Something wierwille never could come to grips with.
------------------------------------------
Continuing onwards: 1/25
There are those that say (I used to be one of "those") that fellowshipping with Jesus Christ dishonors God. Well, God is the one who elevated Jesus Christ to second in command, so to not respect the "pecking order" instituted by God what actually dishonors God. God honored Jesus Christ, clothed him in majesty, and set him over all things until all things are subdued under his feet. In turn Jesus Christ honors God by always doing the Fathers will. God and his Christ are inseperable in union and purpose. While I am showing verses that show Jesus Christ is active and not absent I also wanted to show a section where the Apostles prayed to God in regards to their stand for Jesus Christ, well, because God isnt absent either although he has highly elevated Jesus Christ. Note they call him Lord as he was called in the Old Testament and the distinction is clear:
Acts 4:24-31
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
With the record of Stephen's stoning in Acts 7 we again see God and Jesus Christ working in tandem, yet Stephen says Lord Jesus receive my spirit, recognizing Jesus lordship while respecting and recognizing God's sovereignty.
Acts 7:55-60
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I also want to note there are numerous records in Acts showing Angels at Jesus command, actually something even wierwille acknowledged when he wasnt downplaying Jesus Lordship. If anyone is interested search "Angel of the Lord" to check it out. My point is Jesus Christ is directing the angels to give specific instruction to his Church. Jesus is the head of his Body and that Lordship is very active, not absent.
Well, I couldn't skip Acts 9 so here those records are, once again showing Jesus himself interacting with his Church. Its notable that Saul's companions also heard a voice yet saw no man and Saul himself saw no man either -- makes sense since he was blinded but the emphasis is clear. This is an audible voice from Jesus Christ to flesh and blood beings with no spirit connection so once again disproving wierwille's great principle.
Acts 9:3-8
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Now with Ananias
Acts 9:10-17
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Notice how Ananias conversed with the Lord and he conversed back in the vision given him. Note the very personal nature between Ananias and the Lord Jesus and also note that Ananias himself stated that the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me. In order to say Christ is absent you have to dang near disqualify Jesus from his Lordship in order to do so.
Acts 9:27 once again confirms that Saul/Paul actually talked to Jesus.
Acts 9:27
But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Something I want to point out here just to state the obvious. If wierwille was preaching the Word as it hadnt' been known since the first century then why didnt the disciples that Barnabas addressed correct him and tell him the Lord was absent? Because it was common place for them to interact with Christ - period.
Back to the bullshonta great principle for a moment. If the great principle is true then how in the heck was an Angel, a spirit being, able to communicate with Cornelieus the Roman Centurion who had not been born again at the time of the vision?
Acts 10:1-7
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
Now we will see Peter conversing with Jesus Christ in a vision as he was on the rooftop in prayer where Jesus appears and teaches him further so he will go minister to Cornelius and his household.
Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
If anyone would care to read Acts 11 you will notice that God and Jesus are working together as indicated by the language used in the conversations. Jesus Christs actions as head of the Body and as Lord of Lords and King of Kings glorify God and it's Christ in perfect unison with God carrying out God's will. So yes, God is very involved and is sovereign in his throne and authority, yet he has delegated active Lordship over all to Jesus Christ.
I think it's intersting in Acts chapter 14, verse 3, that the wording indicates that it's Jesus Christ who granted signs and wonders to be done by the Banabus and Paul. So much for the manifestations of holy spirit operating solely as he the man wills.
Acts 14:3
Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Acts 16 has the vision of the Macedonian man appearing to Paul saying come help us. Paul stated it was the Lord calling them to preach the Word in Macedonia.
Acts 16:9,10
And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Acts 18 shows once again Jesus appearing to Paul in a vision.
Acts 18:9-11
Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Heres some phenomenon as wierwille liked to say...I dont put much faith in the concept as defined by wierwille but here we have God doing special miracles by the hands of Paul.
Acts 19:11-13
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
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So_crates
Who said it was revelation to begin with? Saint Vic.
You think.
And, no doubt. Somewhere there's a manuscript staring that, you just haven't found it yet.
But...but...but...
God limits himself by our believing.
Once again, you paint yourself into a corner, then try to bull your way out.
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waysider
Literally no one. You're playing games with definitions again.
People have revelations all the time. Information is revealed to them that they previously didn't have. What is that? It's revelation. Is it supernatural? Well, I guess the possibility exists, but it's not what is typically being implied.
If you need a refresher on what Wierwille meant by "revelation", might I suggest you revisit pages 5-7 of the Advanced Class syllabus? This is where he offers up his definitions of "revelation", which, by the way, he copied almost word for word from a source he failed to disclose.
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OldSkool
Hey, Mike --- you wanna take a crack at explaining away these scriptures? I will keep adding as we move along but feel free to hop on in.
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Mike
Great Scott!!! (whatever that means?)
Why don't you conscript me into your On-Line Theology Class or something? That is a week's worth of homework for me! loL
I loved the way you started out, with the nice blue formatting. I looked at the first scripture, and the second,.... both familiar, and more, and more familiar, and more.... then the list got a little bit longer than I was expecting. I felt a bit overwhelmed by the volume.
But thanks. I saved it for a rainy day. I might look thru it for a super cool one to respond to sooner. Might you do the same? Isolate one of those scriptures most burning to you?
I got 3 more sunny days to work, and then it rains again.
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OldSkool
Excuses excuses. Mike - I have put absolute minimal effort in copying these scriptures. All thats required is to read them and note the language employed...no research required...your making excuses at this point. Feeling overwhelmed is likepy appropriate as there is overwhelming evidence showing that Christ isn't absent but actively functions in directing the affairs of the Church and taking care of his people. Jesus Christ is the prominent one and its God who made him prominent.
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T-Bone
Hi Mike,
As far as you know = the extent that your knowledge reaches = 20 years on Grease Spot Café of you reaching no further than your confirmation bias.
You consistently exhibit a tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports the high regard you have for wierwille and PFAL…Confirmation bias cannot be eliminated, but it can be managed, for example, by education and training in critical thinking skills.
If you are not aware that your posts reflect someone who has no capacity to distinguish truth from lies or differentiate fact from fiction – perhaps you should seek a communication consultant - - or help from professional mental health personnel.
If you are not conscious that you often turn a blind eye to the infamous moral depravity of wierwille – perhaps it means your conscience has been cauterized by the hypocritical and callous nature of wierwille / PFAL. Maybe be honest during self-examination – something we should all do periodically in the way of Matthew 7
In the 17 years that I have been coming to Grease Spot Café and getting to know your ‘mystifying’ and shape-shifting viewpoint, I suspect there’s more issues than meets the eye – I’m just not sure what they are. The only reason I make the time and effort to respond to your nonsense is for the sake of those still in bondage to the pseudo-Christian harmful and controlling cult, The Way International. Any reasonable person comparing the thought content of your posts and most other Grease Spotters is more likely to come away with the thought that you are utterly confused – exemplifying how detrimental to one’s cognitive skills wierwille / PFAL can be if that is one’s only rule for faith and practice.
There is no denying you have some deeply entrenched attitudes that encourage others to accept wierwille and PFAL without serious questions. The purpose of this website demands a rational response to such nonsense.
You can make all the claims you want about a surprisingly large number of grads thought VPW was claiming divine dictation….you have encountered several here over the years – but it means nothing from a person who has zero credibility!
How trustworthy is a person if they are incapable of recognizing the difference of truth from lies, fact from fiction?
What does it say about one’s moral compass if they make wierwille’s corruption and hypocrisy like it’s no big deal?
~ ~ ~ ~
The honest counterpoint to your Another point: MOST of VPW's research was 5-senses, is that wierwille searched…hunted…found what seemed to be attractive money-making ideas in the works of others – and pirated them! He made like he came up with all that stuff – with God’s guidance of course! That’s stealing and lying!
You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. Exodus 20
Sorry to burst your bubble – you so quickly come to the defense of all the lies, illogic, moral depravity, and hypocrisy of wierwille / PFAL... ...you reveal to others what you are unaware of – that you have indeed built your faith on wierwille / PFAL.
We defend to the hilt whatever is most precious to us.
Edited by T-Bonedo the tighten-up !
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Mike
I have VALID reasons, and you are not in a position to judge how well I judged HOW valid they are.
You are acting like a Corps controller again with that comment, calling my valid reasons, flimsy excuses. Why do you want to cheapen a discussion with points like that? They don't influence me any. Do you think they influence others who are reading this? Is that why you call my valid reasons mere excuses? Are you trying to control the minds of readers?
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OldSkool
Your on a thread titled the Absent Christ? -- which I started many moons ago. You have spent dang near 63 pages pushing wierwille's absent Christ doctrine as Biblical and now I challenge you on the topic with a list of scriptures and somehow I am villified for participating in this discussion? Make that make sense.
Now your cognitive dissonance really kicks in causing that discomfort that happens when your false reality is challenged, that countefeit reality is caused by wierwille's doctrines because they blind a person to what scripture actually says.
Calling you out on your excuses is proper in this case.
BTW - you are responding with a logic fallacy called a red herring. You are attempting to reroute the topic onto me when it should be on the content.
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waysider
Might I suggest it may have to do with a blatant disdain for anything Way Corps, as well as academia, related?
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Mike
Reading I can do relatively fast, even with my (excuses?) vision impairment. But writing responses can take hours, and often does.
I am reading/writing overwhelmed usually with T-Bone and WW, and now you jump on the pile. That is happening right now, and the timestamps are ample evidence..
There are WAY too many long, long posts for me to respond to right now, and for many other valid reason, and possibly a couple of flimsy excuses (because I am human), you'll just have to hold your breath waiting for me to respond to all this huge volume of text.
*/*/*/*/*
I'll read things later, after work, and see what looks interesting and worth responding to.
As I said before, if there is one burning item you could isolate and put into a post of not too many paragraphs, please do it.
I can make time for one burning item, but after glass work and home chores are done. I am swamped with both.
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Mike
It is a love/hate thing for them both.
I see the good reasons for both, and the successes, but I also see the EXTREME failures that get covered up.
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OldSkool
I never expected you to respond and you proved my point once again. You arent here for honest discussion. When offered honest discussion you run for the hills. Being stubborn to what scripture actually says isnt a trait you should cherish but reject.
I posted the verses and comments for people reading along. I never expected anything from you except to be you and you didnt disappoint.
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Mike
No. I am reading these things as I wait for the sun to warm things up here.
I can't remember the origins of this thread. I thought you invited me here, or something like that.
I'm not vilifying you for bringing up the scriptures. I felt like you were rushing me. I feel rushed by my customers right now too. LoL
I recognize how important it is that we all understand those scriptures properly, and in the 1970s I was all over them to the best of my ability. It is a very large topic and I have finite time.
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OldSkool
Its really not that difficult to read scripture for what it says. Im not rushing you I am trying to help you see what you are missing. I have no evil intent and Im not trying to attack you. When I tell you I missed the entire boat by not understanding who Jesus Christ actually is and how he functions. I was blinded by the statement "The Word of God takes the place of the Absent Christ" --- scripture plainly shows he isnt absent.
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Mike
NO. When I feel forced or rushed into a very large discussion I start looking at my clock to see how much time I have for it. You interpret that wrongly.
**/*/*
"I posted the verses and comments for people reading along. I never expected anything from you except to be you and you didnt disappoint."
Ohhhhhhh! Oops! I never thought of that. I forgot we are on stage.
OK. Then me saving the list for a rainy day should be cool with you?
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Mike
By "very large discussion" I mean hours of writing and polishing
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OldSkool
As I said, i really did post those verses for the benefit of those reading along.
May I ask why you need so much time to discuss a few verses? They all follow the same basic topic: Christ's Lordship and function. Has PFAL made it difficult to just read what is written? Do you need to go comb through the collaterals and other such publications to organize a response? It's simple. Scripture either supports Christ as absent and mostly inactive or non-absent and quite active even to the point of interacting with folks like us.
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Mike
scripture plainly shows he isnt PRESENT like he was before the Ascension.
That is the thrust of all my efforts in this thread. I think that was the thrust of VPW's also.
It is in examining WHAT God made different and WHY He made it different on the day of the Ascension that interests me most.
I am not that interested in defending VPW's use of that one word, one time in the curriculum.
But WHY did God make something different that day is the key.
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OldSkool
I mean do you need hours of writing and polishing to endeavor explain away what is clearly written? No Greek needed.
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Mike
Scripture supports a BIG CHANGE on the day of the Ascension.
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OldSkool
Christs function changed from being the passover and fulfiling the law to being the Captian of our Salvation as the head of the Body, his Church. He was changed to a life giving spirit and we no longer know him after the flesh. He has been clothed in majesty and is sitting in plain sight for those who care to try to find him.
Im going after wierwille's absent Christ doctrine because it hems up people to this day. The way international is wierwilles legacy and they still teach the absent Christ error by stating the Word of God take the place of the Absent Christ. That is an eggregious dosctinal error.
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OldSkool
Thats all Im trying to get you to see. I have no desire to insult you, attack you, belittle you. I will leave you alone at this point on the topic. Im open to discussion at any point in time. Thanks for considering!
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Nathan_Jr
What are some examples of academic failures that are covered up?
Hundreds, even oodles and thousands, of victor paul wierwille’s errors and failures have been uncovered here and elsewhere. This was always his greatest fear. All NPDs dread being exposed for the frauds they are. Victor was a master at covering up and deflecting.
In academia, workmen worthy of their hire earn increased credibility and reward for falsifying their own propositions and theories. (Read that again.) Papers are eagerly presented to peers for review - critical examination of one’s work is sought after, hoped for, desired.
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