Please do. You posted this on the previous page, 6 hrs. ago.
Yes, I checked the context. At that spot you quoted me, I was talking about committees obtaining or "getting" the Word from the tattered remnants by manuscript analysts, and NOT a new student obtaining understanding by reading his KJV.
There was ANOTHER spot nearby where I actually WAS discussing a new student getting understanding by 5 senses reading of KJV and PFAL collaterals.
Nathan_Jr confused the same items I think.
This is an example where you may be reading for "gotcha" points, rather than reading for what I am trying to say.
*/*/*
Late Edit
I find myself using the word "get" for that process of analyzing the ancient manuscripts. That is the word VPW used at Craig's Coronation and on that SNT tape.
"I don’t know if our men will ever have to rise, sir, to do the years of research that I’ve done to get to the Word, but I don’t think that’s necessary any longer, Craig, I think all we need to do is move on from where we are to where God would have us to go. And I think, sir, you’re the man to direct that and to move that ministry around the world.
We have done a flurry of posting worth 4 pages today. If anyone is Crying Crickets on some needed response from me, please re-post. I lose a lot in the shuffle when I go to work, gym, or shopping.
Yes, I checked the context. At that spot you quoted me, I was talking about committees obtaining or "getting" the Word from the tattered remnants by manuscript analysts, and NOT a new student obtaining understanding by reading his KJV.
There was ANOTHER spot nearby where I actually WAS discussing a new student getting understanding by 5 senses reading of KJV and PFAL collaterals.
Nathan_Jr confused the same items I think.
This is an example where you may be reading for "gotcha" points, rather than reading for what I am trying to say.
I'm not playing "gotcha".
You're blowing smoke with this lame explanation.
You're quoting from page 10, item #4 from the Advanced Class syllabus. (Keys To Walking In The Spirit.)
On that same page, immediately preceding the section you used is key #3.
3. Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation. II Corinthians 4:16
Refresh my memory. When did Wierwille say he first spoke in tongues? I'm thinking it was quite a few years after he claimed to have received revelation via the 1942 promise. But, how can that be if we are to accept item #3 as being correct?
You're quoting from page 10, item #4 from the Advanced Class syllabus. (Keys To Walking In The Spirit.)
On that same page, immediately preceding the section you used is key #3.
3. Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation. II Corinthians 4:16
Refresh my memory. When did Wierwille say he first spoke in tongues? I'm thinking it was quite a few years after he claimed to have received revelation via the 1942 promise. But, how can that be if we are to accept item #3 as being correct?
Please read WW's transcript thread on the 1965 tape where VPW explains that the revelations were few and came only after he worked the word with his senses the best he could.
Many people get the impression that VPW was claiming lots of divine dictation from God. That was NOT the case. I see 1942 as phenomena and not revelation. In the weeks, months, and years after that it was mostly study with senses, until he hit a snag. Sometimes God would help him over that snag, and it was back to the senses.
"It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the—if he—if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement. … Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.”
Hey, you're the one lecturing that loving is serving.
So tell me, who's served by you failing to communicate, then turning around and accusing @waysider of misrepresenting you? Then rather than admit your lousy communication, you double down and accuse Waysider of playing gotcha.
You lighten up, man. Your communication is your responsibility. It's not our job to guess what you mean. If you're misrepresent the fault lies with you.
The only person you serve by whining about misrepresentation and gotcha is you.
As I've said before, being seen as being correct is more important to you than representing the bible.
"It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the—if he—if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement. … Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.”
You have to check the texts man...the texts...its in the original.
Please read WW's transcript thread on the 1965 tape where VPW explains that the revelations were few and came only after he worked the word with his senses the best he could.
Many people get the impression that VPW was claiming lots of divine dictation from God. That was NOT the case. I see 1942 as phenomena and not revelation. In the weeks, months, and years after that it was mostly study with senses, until he hit a snag. Sometimes God would help him over that snag, and it was back to the senses.
I think this is Mike’s exaggeration and misrepresentation of what Grease Spotters think. As far as I know, no one here has ever said wierwille claimed he got lots of divine dictation from God.
What wierwille did was deliberately mislead a lot of people by claiming God was routinely teaching him !
I like to go the extra mile to give a person the benefit of a doubt - so I used the hyperlink WordWolf cited for the source. And so, the following is only some excerpts from Mike’s ‘transcript’- and I used a red fontsome places where wierwille states God was speaking to him, giving him revelation, routinely teaching him…overall implying he had God at his beck and call as a consultant…advisor…a specialist … a mentor...a teacher... …anyway…here is
the excerpt from what Mike posted on December 25th, 2017, 12:40 AM:
…And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word." And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day: "That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!" "Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed. My denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God."
And I thought that was terrific! But during the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit. It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.
I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky 'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. And I sat in that little office and I cried like a baby, because I guess it was about my time to cry, because I'd grown up but didn't know the Word.
And from that day on and He'd promised to teach me the Word, I have tried with all my heart, from time to time--all along, to learn this Word. One of the reasons there are sections of the Word perhaps that I--I don't know, because I do too much cement pouring and a few other items that have to be done and that have to be taken care of. But I am absolutely confident that there is no portion of God's Word that God would not teach me and unfold to me if I studied the Word to show myself approved unto Him by rightly dividing it.
And that began the ministry that has cost me, sense-knowledge, more than anybody will ever realize--except those of us who've gone through it. It gives ya' a whole set of new friends. It caused people, heads of my denomination, through various times when I appeared teaching, like in India, even to write letters against me that I was not a member of the denomination at all--and I'd been born in the lousy place. Isn't that something? And I have them on file--have them in my files, you ought to see 'em, I got a sheet this big.
These are prices you pay. Then you say, well, why don't I reciprocate? Because, people, you can't fight and work the Word too. You can't be fighting all the time and trying to defend yourself against the unbelievers, because the unbelievers are many more than the believers. And we've got only one job to do, as far as my life is concerned, and that is to teach the Word. Whether anybody believes it or not, that's not my responsibility. But to teach it is my responsibility, because He said He'd teach me the Word if I would do one thing--teach it.
Now in order to teach it, I have to study the Word; and when I study it, He shows it to me, then I can teach it. I think a lot of you people know these Bible students that are in here tonight, and we have among our people gathered here tonight, like almost every Sunday night, some of the finest Bible students in the world today. We have Bible students in here to whom no theologian in the entire world can hold a candle when it comes to the rightly dividing and the understanding of God's Word. I think every person in here knows that they can work the Word and they do work it. They get wonderful light and they contribute a great deal to The Way ministry and the light that's taught out of The Way ministry. But when these people bring their light on the Word to me and I have the opportunity to hear it--it doesn't take me but one reading or one hearing and I can, usually, without working it too far, I can pick out the error or pick the good that they bring and fit it right in.
But this is what God raised me to and when He gave me that revelation, and that was a real phenomena or phenomenon. From that day on--this was in Payne, Ohio where this happened, light began to dawn. But you can't learn the whole Word in one night. Therefore, you study the Word--you study it. I suppose I read Genesis chapter one through eleven a thousand times. I don't know how many times you've read it, but I imagine a thousand times is a low number that I have read Genesis, chapter one through eleven. Because I was taught that Genesis one through eleven had at least four or five different authors--you know, the J-P-D documents, this kind of stuff. I'd been taught all of this.
And so I'd read the Word; I'd read it--I'd read it. Then I'd work, start looking--start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light--men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others--many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it.
There is quite a difference between taking dictation and being taught. Withdictation one person who is "dictating" speaks and another who is "taking dictation" writes down the words as they are spoken. The person taking dictation doesn’t have to understand all that is said – but should at least have all the words spoken and in the same order as when it was given. From wierwille’s own words I know he wasn’t claiming he took dictation from God.
With teachingthere are principles and methods used by teachers to enable student learning. These strategies are determined partly on subject matter to be taught and partly by the nature of the learner. From wierwille’s own words it is evident he was claiming to be taught by God directly.
~ ~ ~ ~
In order to get the bigger picture of wierwille’s unabashed plagiarism and delusion of grandeurcheck this out from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 175, Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences: “I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.*
And in the years that followed, there were many men I learned from: Glenn Clark, Karl Barth from Switzerland, E. Stanley Jones, Paul Tillich, Starr Daily, Rufus Mosley, Dr. John Gaynor Banks, and there were many, many others. I tried to get all I could from anybody.”
And on page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”
~ ~ ~ ~
As far as Mike’s statement – that the transcript “explains that the revelations were few and came only after he worked the word with his senses the best he could…”I think Mike is deluded.
I believe anyone who is NOT enamored with this myth ofwierwilleshould be able to see through his smoke and mirrors. Comparing wierwille’s body of work with that of E.W. Bullinger, J.E. Stiles, E.W. Kenyon and B.G. Leonard it becomes clear thatwierwillewas an unabashed plagiarist – and in the final analysis also an incompetent teacher who also bastardized the works of others to serve his depraved agenda.
It is intriguing to note wierwille attempted to preemptively avoid the issue of pirating intellectual property by saying much of what he taught was nothing new, he simply pieced together what he learned from others and through his own due diligence of biblical research and God’s ‘tutelage’ made it accurate in the process.
Christians, Bible students, beware of the con ! The subtle implication of wierwille’sclaims shift the Bible’s authority away from the text-in-context and onto wierwille’s ‘assumed authority’. Considering wierwille’sclaim that God would teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century – it is worth noting that Christians back in that apostolic age had no Bible – the New Testament had not been written yet.
Just for grins let’s suspend criticism of wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and examine his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. If indeed he had God’s help, then we should NOT find any errors, theological inconsistencies or any logical fallacies – in either the exact copying of another person’s material or in wierwille'ssupposedly “correcting" , “revising” …or in some way modifying or “accurizing” another person’s material. In other words, the finished product of wierwille’sdoctrine…PFAL…The Word that wierwille taught should be error-free and faultless in every way…look through the various topics on Grease Spot Café – in the forums of About the Way and Doctrinal you’ll find thoughtful analysis of wierwille’s doctrines and the policies and practices of The Way International.
Any folks still in TWI – you owe it to yourself – you owe it to your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ – you are not your own – you were bought with a price - Jesus Christ’s sacrifice…so for the sake of your own soul explore Grease Spot Café.
~ ~ ~ ~
*I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.
A criterion that wierwille used at the beginning of the PFAL class kept popping up in my head. He was reading from John 10:10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” and then he said either Jesus lied to us here or he told the truth. If he lied to us here – then we ought to chuck the whole thing away – because, he reasoned, if the Bible is not trustworthy there it’s not trustworthy anywhere else so why waste your time…and now ironically, I found myself gravitating toward the same criterion – if I could find some serious falsehood – then that would be a good reason to review and reevaluate everything…That makes me think of I Thessalonians 5:21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good …how many PFAL grads have done that with wierwille’s works?
In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a person’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille liedabout something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…the letter reads as follows:
June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.
Sincerely,
Vivian Ruby
Registrar’s Office
Even if you want to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt and suggest he may have purchased a bunch of courses but did not complete them – I would say that’s doubtful – it still doesn’t agree with what he said “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” Even if he purchased ten classes but didn’t complete any of them – how could he say he took everything Moody Bible Institute Correspondence School had to offer? He made a vague and misleading statement. Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher?
You can see the actual letter from the Moody Bible Institute if you click here
Would you really trust an unabashed plagiarist? Would you believe someone who routinely lied about their accomplishments?
I think this is Mike’s exaggeration and misrepresentation of what Grease Spotters think. As far as I know, no one here has ever said wierwille claimed he got lots of divine dictation from God.
As far as I know, a surprisingly large number of grads thought VPW was claiming "divine dictation." I have encountered several here over the years.
Another point: MOST of VPW's research was 5-senses. The abundance of revelations that did happen were spread out over 42.5 years. There was a greater abundance of simple senses study.
Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher?
That is a very telling phrase: "...the foundation of my faith was built upon..."
I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar.
In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible and especially Paul's Epistles to my mind so that I could use them to benefit my live and others.
The ministry was merely a vehicle to help this process in my mind.
My suspicions and respects toward VPW went up and down over the decades. But my understanding of the Bible has just increased and increased over the years, due to the start I got in PFAL.
I am so glad I built my faith on the Bible, and still do.
I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar.
Me too. He was neither. He was a lousy "scholar." Quite inept, actually. And that TMOG bracelet... cringe. I wouldn't want to have to explain that on that day. Bless his little, black heart.
But there is a silver lining...
I think if victor had beleeved big enough to live long enough, he might have humbled himself to the Father, and he might have been brought to sit at the feet of many here to get reproved, corrected and taught.
The United States of America has a written document called the Constitution.
There are whole bodies of people dedicated to deciding its interpretation. This has been going on with some continuity for 200 years. Plenty to discuss.
Scripture is thousands of years old. How is its proper interpretation decided? Do you see how conforming and restricting and suffocating this is?
Not sure if you meant your question to be rhetorical but I will try to give a short answer. The U.S. govt is set up that courts interpret the Constitution... state courts and federal courts and ultimately, the Supreme Court. It's the way the founders set the govt up and any other interpretation under our form of govt isn't considered valid and from my experience law enforcement agrees with that.
Biblically, the Catholic Church is the oldest known guardian and interpretation of scriptures. Below is a pretty good link on the topic: makes logical sense to me: let me know what you think
Who says phenomena can't REVEAL information, and thus be a revelation?
I think he describes the 1942 promise as phenomena with many words, and probably used the word "revelation" only once?
What I was saying is that it was not him operating the manifestations in 1942, because (of course) he did not know how to do that in 1942.
Nope. At least twice. If it's revealed it's revelation. Operate? Whatever.
So, obviously, SIT is NOT a prerequisite to getting something revealed from God, according to victor's 1942 story, which seems to change with every retelling.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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waysider
Please do. You posted this on the previous page, 6 hrs. ago.
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Mike
Did you note that late edit I put in my post above. I was slow. sorry
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waysider
I'm not interested in your revisionist editing after being called out. Either you said it or you didn't. Which is it?
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Mike
Yes, I checked the context. At that spot you quoted me, I was talking about committees obtaining or "getting" the Word from the tattered remnants by manuscript analysts, and NOT a new student obtaining understanding by reading his KJV.
There was ANOTHER spot nearby where I actually WAS discussing a new student getting understanding by 5 senses reading of KJV and PFAL collaterals.
Nathan_Jr confused the same items I think.
This is an example where you may be reading for "gotcha" points, rather than reading for what I am trying to say.
*/*/*
Late Edit
I find myself using the word "get" for that process of analyzing the ancient manuscripts. That is the word VPW used at Craig's Coronation and on that SNT tape.
Edited by Mike"I don’t know if our men will ever have to rise, sir, to do the years of research that I’ve done to get to the Word, but I don’t think that’s necessary any longer, Craig, I think all we need to do is move on from where we are to where God would have us to go. And I think, sir, you’re the man to direct that and to move that ministry around the world.
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Mike
We have done a flurry of posting worth 4 pages today. If anyone is Crying Crickets on some needed response from me, please re-post. I lose a lot in the shuffle when I go to work, gym, or shopping.
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Mike
It simply added more detail.
SHEESH@!
Lighten up a little, man.
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waysider
I'm not playing "gotcha".
You're blowing smoke with this lame explanation.
You're quoting from page 10, item #4 from the Advanced Class syllabus. (Keys To Walking In The Spirit.)
On that same page, immediately preceding the section you used is key #3.
3. Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation. II Corinthians 4:16
Refresh my memory. When did Wierwille say he first spoke in tongues? I'm thinking it was quite a few years after he claimed to have received revelation via the 1942 promise. But, how can that be if we are to accept item #3 as being correct?
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Mike
Please read WW's transcript thread on the 1965 tape where VPW explains that the revelations were few and came only after he worked the word with his senses the best he could.
Many people get the impression that VPW was claiming lots of divine dictation from God. That was NOT the case. I see 1942 as phenomena and not revelation. In the weeks, months, and years after that it was mostly study with senses, until he hit a snag. Sometimes God would help him over that snag, and it was back to the senses.
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Nathan_Jr
"It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the—if he—if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement. … Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.”
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So_crates
Hey, you're the one lecturing that loving is serving.
So tell me, who's served by you failing to communicate, then turning around and accusing @waysider of misrepresenting you? Then rather than admit your lousy communication, you double down and accuse Waysider of playing gotcha.
You lighten up, man. Your communication is your responsibility. It's not our job to guess what you mean. If you're misrepresent the fault lies with you.
The only person you serve by whining about misrepresentation and gotcha is you.
As I've said before, being seen as being correct is more important to you than representing the bible.
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OldSkool
You have to check the texts man...the texts...its in the original.
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T-Bone
I think this is Mike’s exaggeration and misrepresentation of what Grease Spotters think. As far as I know, no one here has ever said wierwille claimed he got lots of divine dictation from God.
What wierwille did was deliberately mislead a lot of people by claiming God was routinely teaching him !
Mike said to read WordWolf’s transcript thread which “explains that the revelations were few and came only after he worked the word with his senses the best he could.” Which I read - here > September 20th, 2022, 1:50 PM WordWolf posted partial transcript of SNT 124
I like to go the extra mile to give a person the benefit of a doubt - so I used the hyperlink WordWolf cited for the source. And so, the following is only some excerpts from Mike’s ‘transcript’ - and I used a red font some places where wierwille states God was speaking to him, giving him revelation, routinely teaching him…overall implying he had God at his beck and call as a consultant…advisor…a specialist … a mentor...a teacher... …anyway…here is
the excerpt from what Mike posted on December 25th, 2017, 12:40 AM:
…And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said "Father, teach me the Word--teach me the Word." And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't--I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day: "That if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation." And of course at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy!" "Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed. My denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God."
And I thought that was terrific! But during the process of that revelation--and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off; but during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it--couldn't get it to fit. It happened to be bright sunshine like today--like it's been today and yesterday--what we people refer to, I guess as "Indian Summer"--beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year--gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, Well, if--if it'll just snow--right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you." But, you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me, and this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.
I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things--from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes--must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was--ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky 'cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes and it was pitch--almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. And I sat in that little office and I cried like a baby, because I guess it was about my time to cry, because I'd grown up but didn't know the Word.
And from that day on and He'd promised to teach me the Word, I have tried with all my heart, from time to time--all along, to learn this Word. One of the reasons there are sections of the Word perhaps that I--I don't know, because I do too much cement pouring and a few other items that have to be done and that have to be taken care of. But I am absolutely confident that there is no portion of God's Word that God would not teach me and unfold to me if I studied the Word to show myself approved unto Him by rightly dividing it.
And that began the ministry that has cost me, sense-knowledge, more than anybody will ever realize--except those of us who've gone through it. It gives ya' a whole set of new friends. It caused people, heads of my denomination, through various times when I appeared teaching, like in India, even to write letters against me that I was not a member of the denomination at all--and I'd been born in the lousy place. Isn't that something? And I have them on file--have them in my files, you ought to see 'em, I got a sheet this big.
These are prices you pay. Then you say, well, why don't I reciprocate? Because, people, you can't fight and work the Word too. You can't be fighting all the time and trying to defend yourself against the unbelievers, because the unbelievers are many more than the believers. And we've got only one job to do, as far as my life is concerned, and that is to teach the Word. Whether anybody believes it or not, that's not my responsibility. But to teach it is my responsibility, because He said He'd teach me the Word if I would do one thing--teach it.
Now in order to teach it, I have to study the Word; and when I study it, He shows it to me, then I can teach it. I think a lot of you people know these Bible students that are in here tonight, and we have among our people gathered here tonight, like almost every Sunday night, some of the finest Bible students in the world today. We have Bible students in here to whom no theologian in the entire world can hold a candle when it comes to the rightly dividing and the understanding of God's Word. I think every person in here knows that they can work the Word and they do work it. They get wonderful light and they contribute a great deal to The Way ministry and the light that's taught out of The Way ministry. But when these people bring their light on the Word to me and I have the opportunity to hear it--it doesn't take me but one reading or one hearing and I can, usually, without working it too far, I can pick out the error or pick the good that they bring and fit it right in.
But this is what God raised me to and when He gave me that revelation, and that was a real phenomena or phenomenon. From that day on--this was in Payne, Ohio where this happened, light began to dawn. But you can't learn the whole Word in one night. Therefore, you study the Word--you study it. I suppose I read Genesis chapter one through eleven a thousand times. I don't know how many times you've read it, but I imagine a thousand times is a low number that I have read Genesis, chapter one through eleven. Because I was taught that Genesis one through eleven had at least four or five different authors--you know, the J-P-D documents, this kind of stuff. I'd been taught all of this.
And so I'd read the Word; I'd read it--I'd read it. Then I'd work, start looking--start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light--men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others--many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it.
Excerpt from: Mike’s post on the thread “The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write the Book?”
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There is quite a difference between taking dictation and being taught. With dictation one person who is "dictating" speaks and another who is "taking dictation" writes down the words as they are spoken. The person taking dictation doesn’t have to understand all that is said – but should at least have all the words spoken and in the same order as when it was given. From wierwille’s own words I know he wasn’t claiming he took dictation from God.
With teaching there are principles and methods used by teachers to enable student learning. These strategies are determined partly on subject matter to be taught and partly by the nature of the learner. From wierwille’s own words it is evident he was claiming to be taught by God directly.
~ ~ ~ ~
In order to get the bigger picture of wierwille’s unabashed plagiarism and delusion of grandeur check this out from the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), on page 175, Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences:
“I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.*
And in the years that followed, there were many men I learned from: Glenn Clark, Karl Barth from Switzerland, E. Stanley Jones, Paul Tillich, Starr Daily, Rufus Mosley, Dr. John Gaynor Banks, and there were many, many others. I tried to get all I could from anybody.”
And on page 178 of “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.”
On page 209 of Whiteside’s book wierwille comments on the content of what he teaches: “Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”
~ ~ ~ ~
As far as Mike’s statement – that the transcript “explains that the revelations were few and came only after he worked the word with his senses the best he could…” I think Mike is deluded.
I believe anyone who is NOT enamored with this myth of wierwille should be able to see through his smoke and mirrors. Comparing wierwille’s body of work with that of E.W. Bullinger, J.E. Stiles, E.W. Kenyon and B.G. Leonard it becomes clear that wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist – and in the final analysis also an incompetent teacher who also bastardized the works of others to serve his depraved agenda.
It is intriguing to note wierwille attempted to preemptively avoid the issue of pirating intellectual property by saying much of what he taught was nothing new, he simply pieced together what he learned from others and through his own due diligence of biblical research and God’s ‘tutelage’ made it accurate in the process.
Christians, Bible students, beware of the con ! The subtle implication of wierwille’s claims shift the Bible’s authority away from the text-in-context and onto wierwille’s ‘assumed authority’. Considering wierwille’s claim that God would teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century – it is worth noting that Christians back in that apostolic age had no Bible – the New Testament had not been written yet.
Just for grins let’s suspend criticism of wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and examine his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. If indeed he had God’s help, then we should NOT find any errors, theological inconsistencies or any logical fallacies – in either the exact copying of another person’s material or in wierwille's supposedly “correcting" , “revising” …or in some way modifying or “accurizing” another person’s material. In other words, the finished product of wierwille’s doctrine…PFAL…The Word that wierwille taught should be error-free and faultless in every way…look through the various topics on Grease Spot Café – in the forums of About the Way and Doctrinal you’ll find thoughtful analysis of wierwille’s doctrines and the policies and practices of The Way International.
Any folks still in TWI – you owe it to yourself – you owe it to your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ – you are not your own – you were bought with a price - Jesus Christ’s sacrifice…so for the sake of your own soul explore Grease Spot Café.
~ ~ ~ ~
*I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.
A criterion that wierwille used at the beginning of the PFAL class kept popping up in my head. He was reading from John 10:10 “The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” and then he said either Jesus lied to us here or he told the truth. If he lied to us here – then we ought to chuck the whole thing away – because, he reasoned, if the Bible is not trustworthy there it’s not trustworthy anywhere else so why waste your time…and now ironically, I found myself gravitating toward the same criterion – if I could find some serious falsehood – then that would be a good reason to review and reevaluate everything…That makes me think of I Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good …how many PFAL grads have done that with wierwille’s works?
In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a person’s voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead…the letter reads as follows:
June 29, 1987
To whom it may concern,
This is to verify that Victor Wierwille did not complete a course with us. This is not to say that he didn’t purchase a course from us but that he did not complete one. We do not keep records for courses that are not complete for more than 10 years.
Sincerely,
Vivian Ruby
Registrar’s Office
Even if you want to give wierwille the benefit of a doubt and suggest he may have purchased a bunch of courses but did not complete them – I would say that’s doubtful – it still doesn’t agree with what he said “I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” Even if he purchased ten classes but didn’t complete any of them – how could he say he took everything Moody Bible Institute Correspondence School had to offer? He made a vague and misleading statement. Needless to say, my investigation really picked up steam after I held that letter in my hand – but there was also an ominous feeling…dread...would I find out the foundation of my faith was built upon the shifting sands of a false teacher?
You can see the actual letter from the Moody Bible Institute if you click here
Would you really trust an unabashed plagiarist? Would you believe someone who routinely lied about their accomplishments?
That’s all for now, folks
Edited by T-Bonetypos
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waysider
"I just reach up in Daddy's cookie jar".......VPW
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Mike
As far as I know, a surprisingly large number of grads thought VPW was claiming "divine dictation." I have encountered several here over the years.
Another point: MOST of VPW's research was 5-senses. The abundance of revelations that did happen were spread out over 42.5 years. There was a greater abundance of simple senses study.
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waysider
"All nine, all the time."
Except Wierwille... he just studied a lot.
I mean, when he didn't have his hand in Daddy's cookie jar, of course.
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Mike
That is a very telling phrase: "...the foundation of my faith was built upon..."
I am so sorry to see so many built their faith on what they thought was a traditional holy man who doubled as a scholar.
In the 1970s I was too suspicious of holy men and of academics to have built my faith on VPW. He was obviously a ringer in my mind back then, but I didn't know how much. I am glad I didn't. I just focused on USING the keys I was taught to open up the Bible and especially Paul's Epistles to my mind so that I could use them to benefit my live and others.
The ministry was merely a vehicle to help this process in my mind.
My suspicions and respects toward VPW went up and down over the decades. But my understanding of the Bible has just increased and increased over the years, due to the start I got in PFAL.
I am so glad I built my faith on the Bible, and still do.
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Bolshevik
Scripture interprets itself!
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Nathan_Jr
That's not how victor saw it. He called it revelation.
Did you read the transcript?
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Nathan_Jr
No need to increase your understanding. Scripture will understand itself for you. Do not rely on your own understanding.
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Nathan_Jr
Me too. He was neither. He was a lousy "scholar." Quite inept, actually. And that TMOG bracelet... cringe. I wouldn't want to have to explain that on that day. Bless his little, black heart.
But there is a silver lining...
I think if victor had beleeved big enough to live long enough, he might have humbled himself to the Father, and he might have been brought to sit at the feet of many here to get reproved, corrected and taught.
Imagine that! What a dandy that would be!
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Bolshevik
The Word, The Word, nothing but the milk of God's Word.
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oldiesman
Not sure if you meant your question to be rhetorical but I will try to give a short answer. The U.S. govt is set up that courts interpret the Constitution... state courts and federal courts and ultimately, the Supreme Court. It's the way the founders set the govt up and any other interpretation under our form of govt isn't considered valid and from my experience law enforcement agrees with that.
Biblically, the Catholic Church is the oldest known guardian and interpretation of scriptures. Below is a pretty good link on the topic: makes logical sense to me: let me know what you think
Bible can only be understood with the Church, Pope tells scholars | Catholic News Agency
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Mike
Who says phenomena can't REVEAL information, and thus be a revelation?
I think he describes the 1942 promise as phenomena with many words, and probably used the word "revelation" only once?
What I was saying is that it was not him operating the manifestations in 1942, because (of course) he did not know how to do that in 1942.
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Nathan_Jr
Nope. At least twice. If it's revealed it's revelation. Operate? Whatever.
So, obviously, SIT is NOT a prerequisite to getting something revealed from God, according to victor's 1942 story, which seems to change with every retelling.
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