The Absent Christ?

[OldSkool]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

The period of time I was describing there regarding OLGs (Older Leader Grads) was 1981-85, which may have been before your time.  We leaders had been prepared for Craig way ahead of his coronation in '82.

Almost immediately after Craig became president, VPW had a stroke. Not sure of exact date.  He was also visibly getting weaker and then had his eye removed.  VPW was declining as Craig rose in the spotlight.

ALSO during the years 82-86, MUCH of the attention of the young Corps men that I knew personally was on getting onto the ministry payroll so that they could ditch their secular jobs.  There was a competition among them for who will qualify for a regular check from HQ next.  A few of them admitted this to me years later. This was all plain to see in the window cleaning industry, where I was attending and sometimes leading weekly breakfast meetings.

A big item I was addressing above was the big turn of attention away from VPW those years '82-'86  and onto LCM.  Craig was handed power of the purse in 1982, and that turned a lot of heads in his direction.

We leaders did not see VPW calling such attention to seeking Jesus Christ in his later years.

You and a lot of the younger posters may have no knowledge of this transition period where attention was shifted from VPW to LCM, starting as early as 1981.  I have studied in detail what VPW said and did during this period, because someone pointed out to me how things went down.  When all this was happening, I was as oblivious to it as everyone else was.  I did not come to any real awareness of this until after 1998.

What you seem to fail to realize is nobody really cares about the internal, political wranglings of those in the way international. It's irrelevant. Bottom line never changes:

wierwille was a false prophet who was a serial adulterer, drunk, and sexual predator who lied constantly

the way international is his legacy.

Neither the way international or anything else vpw left behind once he died is needed to understand scripture or have a relationship with God Almighty and his non-absent son Jesus Christ.

[Nathan_Jr]

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

this transition period where attention was shifted from VPW to LCM

Where is the focus? Just follow the attention. It was misplaced from the beginning.

This is fundamental to the abject spiritual bankruptcy that is TWI and victor paul wierwille. 

[Mike]

18 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Except at Starbucks.

Like Father like Son: there are some things Jesus Christ just cannot do. 

Except PHYSICALLY at Starbucks.

Right now God thinks the best way is for Christ to be IN YOU (spiritually) as you walk through the door into Starbucks.

And it's not like they cannot do it.  They just don't want to reduce down to that measly level, when the better spiritual level is available.

Now every once in a while, like with Stephen, or John, or Paul he seems to make a pre-Return appearance of sorts. 

Did you see my post on the AC tape VPW played for us about the girl who got healed by Jesus from a horribly deformed spine?  

Maybe Jesus' priority list could include a Starbucks date?  Ask God.

[Mike]

9 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Actually my earliest memories include people talking about how The Fog is happening and how much people know about not knowing The Fog is happening.

I think the Fog Years were from roughly from 1985 to '90.
But the name "Fog Years" was invented well after the fact, after 1990?

The transition period I was talking about a few posts above was a little earlier:   1981-85

[waysider]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

 

 

The TWI Verbal Tradition (TVT) got way out of hand on LOTS of things: grace/license, guidelines/law, discipline, tough love, etc., just like all other churches

Verbal communication is what drove the ministry. Why even have teachings at twig meetings if all that was needed was to read the written materials?

[Nathan_Jr]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

Ask God.

I asked in my native English, then I interpreted that into each of my unknown tongues - I have three.

Don’t know if you learned how (H-O-W) to do that kind of reverse interpretation in “excellor” sessions, but it’s available if you can believe big enough for it.

 I am patiently awaiting an answer. 

[OldSkool]

8 minutes ago, Mike said:

Except PHYSICALLY at Starbucks.

Right now God thinks the best way is for Christ to be IN YOU (spiritually) as you walk through the door into Starbucks.

And it's not like they cannot do it.  They just don't want to reduce down to that measly level, when the better spiritual level is available.

Now every once in a while, like with Stephen, or John, or Paul he seems to make a pre-Return appearance of sorts. 

Did you see my post on the AC tape VPW played for us about the girl who got healed by Jesus from a horribly deformed spine?  

Maybe Jesus' priority list could include a Starbucks date?  Ask God.

You have no idea whatsoever what Jesus Christ is doing or where he is or who he chooses to appear to. 

What you have that you cherish so dearly are lies from a fake minister that you refuse to see past.

[Bolshevik]

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think the Fog Years were from roughly from 1985 to '90.
But the name "Fog Years" was invented well after the fact, after 1990?

The transition period I was talking about a few posts above was a little earlier:   1981-85

Yes

[waysider]

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

Did you see my post on the AC tape VPW played for us about the girl who got healed by Jesus from a horribly deformed spine?  

Well, that settles it. It must be true because there was a tape.

[Bolshevik]

12 minutes ago, Mike said:

Except PHYSICALLY at Starbucks.

Right now God thinks the best way is for Christ to be IN YOU (spiritually) as you walk through the door into Starbucks.

And it's not like they cannot do it.  They just don't want to reduce down to that measly level, when the better spiritual level is available.

Now every once in a while, like with Stephen, or John, or Paul he seems to make a pre-Return appearance of sorts. 

Did you see my post on the AC tape VPW played for us about the girl who got healed by Jesus from a horribly deformed spine?  

Maybe Jesus' priority list could include a Starbucks date?  Ask God.

 

Okay . . . this "spiritual" understanding . . . fantasy.  

[OldSkool]

4 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

 

Okay . . . this "spiritual" understanding . . . fantasy.  

Right! The great line of demarcation that moves constantly to support mikes position...wherever that position is today...the great divide between the physical realm and the spiritual realm...lmao...pure fantasy. There is no divide...where all these different rules apply.

[waysider]

6 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

the great divide between the physical realm and the spiritual realm...lmao...pure fantasy. There is no divide...where all these different rules apply.

Except for adultery. Clearly there's a difference there. /s

[Mike]

21 minutes ago, waysider said:

Verbal communication is what drove the ministry. Why even have teachings at twig meetings if all that was needed was to read the written materials?

I hear you.  But when those verbal communications drift from the Word, things go wrong.

 

[Bolshevik]

10 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

Right! The great line of demarcation that moves constantly to support mikes position...wherever that position is today...the great divide between the physical realm and the spiritual realm...lmao...pure fantasy. There is no divide...where all these different rules apply.

That's why you had to wait for STS/SNS each week before forming an opinion on current events . . . Needed to know what was "spiritually going on" from the MOGFART.  It's a Great Principle (GP).

[Bolshevik]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

I hear you.  But when those verbal communications drift from the Word, things go wrong.

 

And the "Word" is what exactly?  Please use your verbal skills.

[Mike]

20 minutes ago, waysider said:

Well, that settles it. It must be true because there was a tape.

The truth of the tape is not the point.  The point was that VPW was playing a tape that goes against your theology here. 

The real VPW wanted us to know that Jesus was very real and very present when we get hip to him spiritually. Your anti-idol theology is plain wrong because it says he wanted us to look away from Jesus.   I just showed you 10 times he emphasized looking toward Jesus.

[Mike]

5 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

And the "Word" is what exactly?  Please use your verbal skills.

I gotta go use my window cleaning skills a little bit while the sun is out.

[Bolshevik]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

I gotta go use my window cleaning skills a little bit while the sun is out.

I think I've been clear on this thread already that "The Word" has distorted meaning.

As does spiritual.

We can't just carry on as if people understand each other.

[waysider]

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

I gotta go use my window cleaning skills a little bit while the sun is out.

Of course. Windows seem to get dirty whenever the questions get too hard to answer.

Edited January 18, 2023 by waysider
spelling

[waysider]

8 minutes ago, Mike said:

The truth of the tape is not the point.  .

11 minutes ago, Mike said:

The point was that VPW was playing a tape that goes against your theology here.

 

Except that it really is the point. You have no idea whether or not the claims are verifiable.

You also have no idea what my "theology" is.

[Nathan_Jr]

20 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

And the "Word" is what exactly?  Please use your verbal skills.

I asked this of him many times. After days, even weeks, of dodging and window washing, he answered.

Mike said:

The Word = YourBelieving+ChristInYou+YourWalk+TheBible

 

Hope this clears things up.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Nathan_Jr
Bloody gloves

[WordWolf]

44 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think the Fog Years were from roughly from 1985 to '90.
But the name "Fog Years" was invented well after the fact, after 1990?

The transition period I was talking about a few posts above was a little earlier:   1981-85

A) They were.

B) It was not.  lcm was walking around as if in a fog at the time.  Even he called it that by 1989.

[WordWolf]

15 minutes ago, Mike said:

The truth of the tape is not the point.  The point was that VPW was playing a tape that goes against your theology here. 

The real VPW wanted us to know that Jesus was very real and very present when we get hip to him spiritually. Your anti-idol theology is plain wrong because it says he wanted us to look away from Jesus.   I just showed you 10 times he emphasized looking toward Jesus.

You told us-

"Ten times I count the phrase see Jesus in these two pages.

 

 

Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing to SEE JESUS that he’s urging with us OLGs to do. It’s for other grads too."

 

===============

Basic pfal- and basic Bullinger- get "to whom" correct.

ONCE, vpw mentioned "see Jesus" for us, and nine times he mentioned it for Zaccheus.  If he told us ONCE, he's not "urging" us to do it.Once it was for us to "see more and more of God's Word."

====================

On page 207 he writes:

 

 

As we pass through life, we must climb ever higher and higher in our hearts and minds with the greatness of God’s Word. We must always keep progressing to see more and more of God’s Word and His promises manifested in our daily lives.

 

 

Then on pages 212-213 we see:

 

 

All I know is that the Word of God says Zacchaeus was a publican and he was rich. We learn one other thing about Zacchaeus in this account and that is that he was motivated by a wonderful desire: He wanted to see Jesus.

 

 

Luke 19:3
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.

 

 

Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus - who he was. Perhaps it was simple curiosity prompting him. The text doesn't say. But whatever the reason, at least he wanted to see Jesus. I wish that today, across our nation, there were more people who wanted to see Jesus. When people ask to see Jesus today, we've got to show him. When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word.

 

 

Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus, but he couldn't. The reason he couldn't see him or get to him was for "the press." That doesn't mean the news media, such as newspaper, radio, or television reporters. "Press" means "numbers of people." There were so many people surrounding Jesus that Zacchaeus couldn't get a glimpse of him.

 

 

Verse 3:
. . . because he was little of stature.

 

 

Zacchaeus was short. The biggest thing about him was his desire to see Jesus.

 

 

Verse 4:

 

 

And he [Zacchaeus] ran before [ahead of where Jesus was walking], and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him: for he [Jesus] was to pass that way.

 

 

Zacchaeus climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to get a view of this noted person, Jesus, whom people were talking about. Zacchaeus took the necessary action to fulfill his desire. That's very important. If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree.

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

Ten times I count the phrase see Jesus in these two pages.

 

 

Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing to SEE JESUS that he’s urging with us OLGs to do. It’s for other grads too.

================================

This is one reason people don't trust your doctrine- you continually make ELEMENTARY MISTAKES. That's why everything's behind a curtain- to try to minimize the sunlight on the BASIC ERRORS.

One of those "ten times"  the phrase "see Jesus" wasn't said at all.

ONE of those "ten times" the phrase "see Jesus" referred to us.

The remaining EIGHT times were all in reference to ZACCHEUS, who wanted to see Jesus.

 

[Bolshevik]

7 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I asked this of him many times. After days, even weeks, of dodging and window washing, he answered.

Mike said:

The Word = YourBelieving+ChristInYou+YourWalk+TheBible

 

Hope this clears things up.

Window washing should shine light on things.  In principle (IP)

The Word = Plate Spinning

Got it.  Maybe.  May have to adjust the equation.  Again.

[Bolshevik]

53 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I asked this of him many times. After days, even weeks, of dodging and window washing, he answered.

Mike said:

The Word = YourBelieving+ChristInYou+YourWalk+TheBible

 

Hope this clears things up.

You notice in that equation, it appears Christ's relation to The Word is a function of other people?