I just posted an article from The Way International's website, an article from 2022.
"Every day we can awake with enthusiasm and excitement to take the place of the absent Christ, reconciling men and women back to God in Christ’s stead."
This "Absent Christ" idea persists in spite of any memory of any book you may have.
I don't doubt that the TVTs handling of absent Christ from TWI-1 became mainstream, official doctrine in TWI-2 and -3. Thanks for the tip on TWI-4. I will have to study their written positions in these articles. I had never seen them until last week.
What I was pointing out is that the class and the book did not foster an imbalanced perspective on Jesus being totally absent, just physically, and just temporary.
I don't doubt that the TVTs handling of absent Christ from TWI-1 became mainstream, official doctrine in TWI-2 and -3. Thanks for the tip on TWI-4. I will have to study their written positions in these articles. I had never seen them until last week.
What I was pointing out is that the class and the book did not foster an imbalanced perspective on Jesus being totally absent, just physically, and just temporary.
This may be an item TWI-4 needs to work on.
TWI is not to be understood in terms of administrations and personnal acronyms. Subversion interprets itself.
YOU are NOT defining Christ or The Word the way the vast majority of humans in history have done so. Nor have you presented your view on the outset concerning this matter. Your responses are entirely reflexive.
Born-again believers have been given the tremendous opportunity of representing the Lord Jesus Christ and carrying out the works he did while he was on earth, and greater works.
John 14:12: Verily, verily, I[Jesus Christ]say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greaterworksthan these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Today, Jesus Christ is seated in the heavenlies at God’s own right hand, functioning as the head of the Church of the Body, as it says in Ephesians 1; but he did not leave his role on earth unattended. He delegated to born-again believers the power and authority to carry out his works, and greater, in his stead. It’s now our joy to assume this responsibility and represent him with all confidence.
One of the powerful ways we can act in Christ’s stead is by reconciling men and women back to God. II Corinthians 5 tells us about our ministry of reconciliation.
II Corinthians 5:18-20: And all thingsareof God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseechyouby us: we prayyouin Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
During Jesus Christ’s ministry on this earth, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Today the work of reconciling men and women to God is not the work of Christ but the work of born-again believers, who have been given the Word and the ministry of reconciliation. We areambassadorsfor the Lord Jesus Christ, and we have the joy of reconciling others to God in Christ’s stead. We do this with God’s Word and with His power.
I Thessalonians 1:5: For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost[holy spirit],and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
I Corinthians 2:4: And my speech and my preachingwasnot with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit[spirit]and of power.
Before Jesus Christ ascended to the right hand of God, he set the vision for those of us in the Church of the Body today to be witnesses unto him.
Acts 1:8: But ye shall receive[into manifestation]power, after that the Holy Ghost[holy spirit]is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The power of the gift of holy spirit gives us the ability to accomplish this vision of beingwitnesses unto him…unto the uttermost part of the earth. We have Christ in us, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27). We have the potential of Christ’s heart, commitment, and ability to reach others with God’s powerful Word of deliverance.
We can lead men and women to a personalrelationship with Godvia His Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:6). We can teach them how to become born again of God’s spirit and have eternal life (Romans 10:9,10). We can pray with people, using the powerful name of Jesus Christ to claim God’s promises (John 14:14). We can help men and women not be tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14,15). We can believe for signs, miracles, and wonders (Mark 16:17,18), and more.
What a joy we’ve been afforded to represent the Lord Jesus Christ on this earth, to carry out the works he did while here, and greater. Every day we can awake with enthusiasm and excitement to take the place of the absent Christ, reconciling men and women back to God in Christ’s stead.
Does anyone have any idea what I am referring to in VPW's very last book, OMSW? He had an entire chapter there on seeking Jesus. Anyone remember it?
Stop with the reading assignments ...say what u gotta say or don't but for one I'm not going to chase your concepts and have u then twist what I say. I could care less what's in any of wierwilles writings...he's no more authority on the subject than snoopy the dog.
Born-again believers have been given the tremendous opportunity of representing the Lord Jesus Christ and carrying out the works he did while he was on earth, and greater works.
John 14:12: Verily, verily, I[Jesus Christ]say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greaterworksthan these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Today, Jesus Christ is seated in the heavenlies at God’s own right hand, functioning as the head of the Church of the Body, as it says in Ephesians 1; but he did not leave his role on earth unattended. He delegated to born-again believers the power and authority to carry out his works, and greater, in his stead. It’s now our joy to assume this responsibility and represent him with all confidence.
One of the powerful ways we can act in Christ’s stead is by reconciling men and women back to God. II Corinthians 5 tells us about our ministry of reconciliation.
II Corinthians 5:18-20: And all thingsareof God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseechyouby us: we prayyouin Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
During Jesus Christ’s ministry on this earth, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Today the work of reconciling men and women to God is not the work of Christ but the work of born-again believers, who have been given the Word and the ministry of reconciliation. We areambassadorsfor the Lord Jesus Christ, and we have the joy of reconciling others to God in Christ’s stead. We do this with God’s Word and with His power.
I Thessalonians 1:5: For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost[holy spirit],and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
I Corinthians 2:4: And my speech and my preachingwasnot with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit[spirit]and of power.
Before Jesus Christ ascended to the right hand of God, he set the vision for those of us in the Church of the Body today to be witnesses unto him.
Acts 1:8: But ye shall receive[into manifestation]power, after that the Holy Ghost[holy spirit]is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The power of the gift of holy spirit gives us the ability to accomplish this vision of beingwitnesses unto him…unto the uttermost part of the earth. We have Christ in us, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27). We have the potential of Christ’s heart, commitment, and ability to reach others with God’s powerful Word of deliverance.
We can lead men and women to a personalrelationship with Godvia His Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:6). We can teach them how to become born again of God’s spirit and have eternal life (Romans 10:9,10). We can pray with people, using the powerful name of Jesus Christ to claim God’s promises (John 14:14). We can help men and women not be tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14,15). We can believe for signs, miracles, and wonders (Mark 16:17,18), and more.
What a joy we’ve been afforded to represent the Lord Jesus Christ on this earth, to carry out the works he did while here, and greater. Every day we can awake with enthusiasm and excitement to take the place of the absent Christ, reconciling men and women back to God in Christ’s stead.
Christ and The Word have to separated (when they should be equated) to insert The Law of Believing?
TWI wants to transfer Christ's authority to the individual? By "delegating".
The Renewed Mind to the Word (which is now NOT Christ) . . . puts an effort on an individual that probably shouldn't be there . .
Today the work of reconciling men and women to God is not the work of Christ but the work of born-again believers,
Not directed at you Bolsh, but Bullshonta. Christ directs the affairs of the Church as the head of the Body and directs people as they function as ambassadors. He is vitally involved.
Bullshonta. Christ directs the affairs of the Church as the head of the Body and directs people as they function as ambassadors. He is vitally involved.
yeah, if The Word IS Christ than the Renewed Mind to the The Word is actually saying focus on Christ
Stop with the reading assignments ...say what u gotta say or don't but for one I'm not going to chase your concepts and have u then twist what I say. I could care less what's in any of wierwilles writings...he's no more authority on the subject than snoopy the dog.
What I am saying is that VPW was not responsible for Jesus being absent from so much TWI thought and activity. He fought against that.
He used that phrase once, and constantly referred to the spiritual presence of Christ within.
*/*/*/*
I found in the archives this absent Christ debate raging 20 years ago just like it is today. Below is my re-write of a post I made April 5, 2003.
The TWI Verbal Tradition (TVT) got way out of hand on LOTS of things: grace/license, guidelines/law, discipline, tough love, etc., just like all other churches. The first century church got out of balance this way and eventually became RC.
But I've found a most beautiful chapter in Dr's last book about Zacchaeus. It’s called ‘Climbing High to Seek Truth.’ It really dispels the myth that Dr’s teaching was bereft of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That DID happen in TVT, but not Dr’s teachings.
Here are some of VPW's last words to us, from that last year, and his last book.
*/*/*/*
On page 207 he writes:
As we pass through life, we must climb ever higher and higher in our hearts and minds with the greatness of God’s Word. We must always keep progressing to see more and more of God’s Word and His promises manifested in our daily lives.
Then on pages 212-213 we see:
All I know is that the Word of God says Zacchaeus was a publican and he was rich. We learn one other thing about Zacchaeus in this account and that is that he was motivated by a wonderful desire: He wanted to see Jesus.
Luke 19:3
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus - who he was. Perhaps it was simple curiosity prompting him. The text doesn't say. But whatever the reason, at least he wanted to see Jesus. I wish that today, across our nation, there were more people who wanted to see Jesus. When people ask to see Jesus today, we've got to show him. When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word.
Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus, but he couldn't. The reason he couldn't see him or get to him was for "the press." That doesn't mean the news media, such as newspaper, radio, or television reporters. "Press" means "numbers of people." There were so many people surrounding Jesus that Zacchaeus couldn't get a glimpse of him.
Verse 3:
. . . because he was little of stature.
Zacchaeus was short. The biggest thing about him was his desire to see Jesus.
Verse 4:
And he [Zacchaeus] ran before [ahead of where Jesus was walking], and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him: for he [Jesus] was to pass that way.
Zacchaeus climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to get a view of this noted person, Jesus, whom people were talking about. Zacchaeus took the necessary action to fulfill his desire. That's very important. If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree.
*/*/*/*
Ten times I count the phrase see Jesus in these two pages.
Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing to SEE JESUS that he’s urging with us OLGs to do. It’s for other grads too.
*/*/*/*
On pages 214 and 215 he writes:
I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God’s Word. Those people who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall (absolutely) be filled. That’s right. What an example of fulfilling this promise from this record in God’s Word.
Again, he’s telling us to hunger for the Lord Jesus Christ.
*/*/*/*
On pages 221 and 222 he writes:
Jesus Christ is a physician of the soul. A physician is not needed when one is healthy. Jesus Christ comes to seek and to save, to give wholeness to those in spiritual need. He seeks those who are lost-men and women who need the Lord Jesus Christ. He has no problem extending himself to you and to me, because we are the people he came to seek and to save. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus Christ is "able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him." Jesus Christ is always ready to meet you. He met Zacchaeus, who had climbed up in a tree to see him. Wherever there are men and women who really want to hear, Jesus Christ is always there.
There is no one so low that the arms of the Almighty are not underneath him. There is no one so high that the arms of the Almighty are not over him. And there is no one other than His Son who can save people. For there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved.
Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he’ The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is to come to God's Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation.
What do you need to hear God's Word. Jesus Christ was that Word, the Living Word, who met Zacchaeus that day in Jericho. And he brought Zacchaeus to the great reality of being a believer, because Jesus was willing to teach him and Zacchaeus was meek to learn. If you want to experience the truth of God's Word, climb high to seek truth. God always has and always will seek out and teach those who are looking to Jesus Christ as their savior and lord.
*/*/*/*
When all these words were coming out in print, we OLGs were all on our own trips, all imbalanced in one way or another, and these things slipped right by us (or out of us).
I tried to show some of these kinds of things to the CES bulldozers in the early 90’s after they had been blowing the whistle on how the TVT had lost track of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I believed them for a few years, until I found a ton of things like these quotes.
The reason I believed them at first, in the late 80’s, is because I clearly saw it the TVTs, but I hadn’t yet learned the VAST separation, the VAST difference between what got put into print from what went on behind the scenes. This is the case for other things that got out of balance besides the lordship deal.
The print record, and also the tapes, has lots of things that we OLGs were learning how to tune out. We would say things in our heads like: “Yeah, yeah, that’s just Dr”or “How many times have I heard THIS before” or “He doesn’t really mean that. He just misspoke, but I’ve a hot line to the Father and I’ll correct it immediately and just forget about it.”
Us OLGs have some accounting to do.
How come we didn’t see the VAST difference between TVT and the Word of God that God was teaching to Dr and Dr was getting into print. How come we didn’t see that VAST difference?Because we ended up on the victim end of the Sower-and-Seed, that’s how! We drifted away from the pure Word in PFAL and went back to tradition and KJV "research" on our own with no 1942 promise to back us up. And our fruit tells exactly which 3 of the 4 "Sower and Seed" victim categories we fit into, when “all nine all the time” waa the standard which we were shooting for.
We got work to do. Thank God for His patience with us.
What I am saying is that VPW was not responsible for Jesus being absent from so much TWI thought and activity.
U really love the memory of wierwille that u elevate it above all else...then cognitive dissonance kicks in and we get hammered with confirmation bias....Mike. Your love for wierwille above God and the man that died for you, the non-absent Jesus Christ is not good. In fact it's your problem and your ok with that. So what do I care.
How come we didn’t see the VAST difference between TVT and the Word of God that God was teaching to Dr and Dr was getting into print. How come we didn’t see that VAST difference?Because we ended up on the victim end of the Sower-and-Seed, that’s how! We drifted away from the pure Word in PFAL and went back to tradition and KJV "research" on our own with no 1942 promise to back us up. And our fruit tells exactly which 3 of the 4 "Sower and Seed" victim categories we fit into, when “all nine all the time” waa the standard which we were shooting for.
. . .
Not only are you still separating JC and The Word, you're equating the "works" of VPW, PFAL, to The Word.
The 1942 snow was NOT The Comforter.
You're saying, "No no no, Christ is not absent, YOU are mistaken. . . . So anyway PFAL is The Word . . . focus on what VPW's 'original intent' . . ."
The Bible and PFAL are inanimate objects. Inanimate objects are DEAD. The Dead are NOT Alive. Or, ARE the Dead Alive Now?
Jesus Christ is always ready to meet you. He met Zacchaeus, who had climbed up in a tree to see him. Wherever there are men and women who really want to hear, Jesus Christ is always there.
Except at Starbucks.
Like Father like Son: there are some things Jesus Christ just cannot do.
"Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing toSEE JESUSthat he’s urging with us OLGs to do. It’s for other grads too."
I'm guessing the last letter stands for "grads" . . . this is a special color of nametag
The period of time I was describing there regarding OLGs (Older Leader Grads) was 1981-85, which may have been before your time. We leaders had been prepared for Craig way ahead of his coronation in '82.
Almost immediately after Craig became president, VPW had a stroke. Not sure of exact date. He was also visibly getting weaker and then had his eye removed. VPW was declining as Craig rose in the spotlight.
ALSO during the years 82-86, MUCH of the attention of the young Corps men that I knew personally was on getting onto the ministry payroll so that they could ditch their secular jobs. There was a competition among them for who will qualify for a regular check from HQ next. A few of them admitted this to me years later. This was all plain to see in the window cleaning industry, where I was attending and sometimes leading weekly breakfast meetings.
A big item I was addressing above was the big turn of attention away from VPW those years '82-'86 and onto LCM. Craig was handed power of the purse in 1982, and that turned a lot of heads in his direction.
We leaders did not see VPW calling such attention to seeking Jesus Christ in his later years.
You and a lot of the younger posters may have no knowledge of this transition period where attention was shifted from VPW to LCM, starting as early as 1981. I have studied in detail what VPW said and did during this period, because someone pointed out to me how things went down. When all this was happening, I was as oblivious to it as everyone else was. I did not come to any real awareness of this until after 1998.
"Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing toSEE JESUSthat he’s urging with us OLGs to do. It’s for other grads too."
I'm guessing the last letter stands for "grads" . . . this is a special color of nametag
The period of time I was describing there regarding OLGs (Older Leader Grads) was 1981-85, which may have been before your time. We leaders had been prepared for Craig way ahead of his coronation in '82.
Almost immediately after Craig became president, VPW had a stroke. Not sure of exact date. He was also visibly getting weaker and then had his eye removed. VPW was declining as Craig rose in the spotlight.
ALSO during the years 82-86, MUCH of the attention of the young Corps men that I knew personally was on getting onto the ministry payroll so that they could ditch their secular jobs. There was a competition among them for who will qualify for a regular check from HQ next. A few of them admitted this to me years later. This was all plain to see in the window cleaning industry, where I was attending and sometimes leading weekly breakfast meetings.
A big item I was addressing above was the big turn of attention away from VPW those years '82-'86 and onto LCM. Craig was handed power of the purse in 1982, and that turned a lot of heads in his direction.
We leaders did not see VPW calling such attention to seeking Jesus Christ in his later years.
You and a lot of the younger posters may have no knowledge of this transition period where attention was shifted from VPW to LCM, starting as early as 1981. I have studied in detail what VPW said and did during this period, because someone pointed out to me how things went down. When all this was happening, I was as oblivious to it as everyone else was. I did not come to any real awareness of this until after 1998.
Actually my earliest memories include people talking about how The Fog is happening and how much people know about not knowing The Fog is happening.
You do realize that even in giving a simple history, you are showing the idea that those closer to VPW are higher in the pecking order?
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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Mike
I don't doubt that the TVTs handling of absent Christ from TWI-1 became mainstream, official doctrine in TWI-2 and -3. Thanks for the tip on TWI-4. I will have to study their written positions in these articles. I had never seen them until last week.
What I was pointing out is that the class and the book did not foster an imbalanced perspective on Jesus being totally absent, just physically, and just temporary.
This may be an item TWI-4 needs to work on.
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Bolshevik
"nodding in approval" is the pre-social media "like button"
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Bolshevik
TWI is not to be understood in terms of administrations and personnal acronyms. Subversion interprets itself.
YOU are NOT defining Christ or The Word the way the vast majority of humans in history have done so. Nor have you presented your view on the outset concerning this matter. Your responses are entirely reflexive.
Edited by Bolshevikbad grammar interprets itself
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Bolshevik
"What a joy we’ve been afforded to represent the Lord Jesus Christ on this earth, to carry out the works he did while here, and greater."
Another example of TWI telling the individual what to feel.
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Mike
Does anyone have any idea what I am referring to in VPW's very last book, OMSW? He had an entire chapter there on seeking Jesus. Anyone remember it?
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waysider
Just a bit of a tangential observation:
Excellor sessions fall in the category of TVTs.
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OldSkool
Nice try to establish moral superiority. You show me just one verse that says we take the place of the absent Christ.
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Bolshevik
https://thewayinternational.com/reconciling-others-in-christs-stead/
Born-again believers have been given the tremendous opportunity of representing the Lord Jesus Christ and carrying out the works he did while he was on earth, and greater works.
Today, Jesus Christ is seated in the heavenlies at God’s own right hand, functioning as the head of the Church of the Body, as it says in Ephesians 1; but he did not leave his role on earth unattended. He delegated to born-again believers the power and authority to carry out his works, and greater, in his stead. It’s now our joy to assume this responsibility and represent him with all confidence.
One of the powerful ways we can act in Christ’s stead is by reconciling men and women back to God. II Corinthians 5 tells us about our ministry of reconciliation.
During Jesus Christ’s ministry on this earth, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Today the work of reconciling men and women to God is not the work of Christ but the work of born-again believers, who have been given the Word and the ministry of reconciliation. We are ambassadors for the Lord Jesus Christ, and we have the joy of reconciling others to God in Christ’s stead. We do this with God’s Word and with His power.
Before Jesus Christ ascended to the right hand of God, he set the vision for those of us in the Church of the Body today to be witnesses unto him.
The power of the gift of holy spirit gives us the ability to accomplish this vision of being witnesses unto him…unto the uttermost part of the earth. We have Christ in us, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27). We have the potential of Christ’s heart, commitment, and ability to reach others with God’s powerful Word of deliverance.
We can lead men and women to a personal relationship with God via His Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:6). We can teach them how to become born again of God’s spirit and have eternal life (Romans 10:9,10). We can pray with people, using the powerful name of Jesus Christ to claim God’s promises (John 14:14). We can help men and women not be tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14,15). We can believe for signs, miracles, and wonders (Mark 16:17,18), and more.
What a joy we’ve been afforded to represent the Lord Jesus Christ on this earth, to carry out the works he did while here, and greater. Every day we can awake with enthusiasm and excitement to take the place of the absent Christ, reconciling men and women back to God in Christ’s stead.
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OldSkool
Stop with the reading assignments ...say what u gotta say or don't but for one I'm not going to chase your concepts and have u then twist what I say. I could care less what's in any of wierwilles writings...he's no more authority on the subject than snoopy the dog.
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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Bolshevik
Christ and The Word have to separated (when they should be equated) to insert The Law of Believing?
TWI wants to transfer Christ's authority to the individual? By "delegating".
The Renewed Mind to the Word (which is now NOT Christ) . . . puts an effort on an individual that probably shouldn't be there . .
(my head hurts . . . hold on)
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OldSkool
Not directed at you Bolsh, but Bullshonta. Christ directs the affairs of the Church as the head of the Body and directs people as they function as ambassadors. He is vitally involved.
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Bolshevik
yeah, if The Word IS Christ than the Renewed Mind to the The Word is actually saying focus on Christ
*rubs head*
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waysider
Hey, now! Don't be dissin' Snoopy.
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OldSkool
My bad, yo!
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Mike
What I am saying is that VPW was not responsible for Jesus being absent from so much TWI thought and activity. He fought against that.
He used that phrase once, and constantly referred to the spiritual presence of Christ within.
*/*/*/*
I found in the archives this absent Christ debate raging 20 years ago just like it is today. Below is my re-write of a post I made April 5, 2003.
The original post can be found at:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/1005-the-ubiquitously-hidden-teaching-of-vpw/page/6/#comment-35722
*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
The TWI Verbal Tradition (TVT) got way out of hand on LOTS of things: grace/license, guidelines/law, discipline, tough love, etc., just like all other churches. The first century church got out of balance this way and eventually became RC.
But I've found a most beautiful chapter in Dr's last book about Zacchaeus. It’s called ‘Climbing High to Seek Truth.’ It really dispels the myth that Dr’s teaching was bereft of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That DID happen in TVT, but not Dr’s teachings.
Here are some of VPW's last words to us, from that last year, and his last book.
*/*/*/*
On page 207 he writes:
As we pass through life, we must climb ever higher and higher in our hearts and minds with the greatness of God’s Word. We must always keep progressing to see more and more of God’s Word and His promises manifested in our daily lives.
Then on pages 212-213 we see:
All I know is that the Word of God says Zacchaeus was a publican and he was rich. We learn one other thing about Zacchaeus in this account and that is that he was motivated by a wonderful desire: He wanted to see Jesus.
Luke 19:3
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus - who he was. Perhaps it was simple curiosity prompting him. The text doesn't say. But whatever the reason, at least he wanted to see Jesus. I wish that today, across our nation, there were more people who wanted to see Jesus. When people ask to see Jesus today, we've got to show him. When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word.
Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus, but he couldn't. The reason he couldn't see him or get to him was for "the press." That doesn't mean the news media, such as newspaper, radio, or television reporters. "Press" means "numbers of people." There were so many people surrounding Jesus that Zacchaeus couldn't get a glimpse of him.
Verse 3:
. . . because he was little of stature.
Zacchaeus was short. The biggest thing about him was his desire to see Jesus.
Verse 4:
And he [Zacchaeus] ran before [ahead of where Jesus was walking], and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him: for he [Jesus] was to pass that way.
Zacchaeus climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to get a view of this noted person, Jesus, whom people were talking about. Zacchaeus took the necessary action to fulfill his desire. That's very important. If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree.
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Ten times I count the phrase see Jesus in these two pages.
Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing to SEE JESUS that he’s urging with us OLGs to do. It’s for other grads too.
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On pages 214 and 215 he writes:
I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God’s Word. Those people who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall (absolutely) be filled. That’s right. What an example of fulfilling this promise from this record in God’s Word.
Again, he’s telling us to hunger for the Lord Jesus Christ.
*/*/*/*
On pages 221 and 222 he writes:
Jesus Christ is a physician of the soul. A physician is not needed when one is healthy. Jesus Christ comes to seek and to save, to give wholeness to those in spiritual need. He seeks those who are lost-men and women who need the Lord Jesus Christ. He has no problem extending himself to you and to me, because we are the people he came to seek and to save. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus Christ is "able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him." Jesus Christ is always ready to meet you. He met Zacchaeus, who had climbed up in a tree to see him. Wherever there are men and women who really want to hear, Jesus Christ is always there.
There is no one so low that the arms of the Almighty are not underneath him. There is no one so high that the arms of the Almighty are not over him. And there is no one other than His Son who can save people. For there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved.
Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he’ The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is to come to God's Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation.
What do you need to hear God's Word. Jesus Christ was that Word, the Living Word, who met Zacchaeus that day in Jericho. And he brought Zacchaeus to the great reality of being a believer, because Jesus was willing to teach him and Zacchaeus was meek to learn. If you want to experience the truth of God's Word, climb high to seek truth. God always has and always will seek out and teach those who are looking to Jesus Christ as their savior and lord.
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When all these words were coming out in print, we OLGs were all on our own trips, all imbalanced in one way or another, and these things slipped right by us (or out of us).
I tried to show some of these kinds of things to the CES bulldozers in the early 90’s after they had been blowing the whistle on how the TVT had lost track of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I believed them for a few years, until I found a ton of things like these quotes.
The reason I believed them at first, in the late 80’s, is because I clearly saw it the TVTs, but I hadn’t yet learned the VAST separation, the VAST difference between what got put into print from what went on behind the scenes. This is the case for other things that got out of balance besides the lordship deal.
The print record, and also the tapes, has lots of things that we OLGs were learning how to tune out. We would say things in our heads like: “Yeah, yeah, that’s just Dr” or “How many times have I heard THIS before” or “He doesn’t really mean that. He just misspoke, but I’ve a hot line to the Father and I’ll correct it immediately and just forget about it.”
Us OLGs have some accounting to do.
How come we didn’t see the VAST difference between TVT and the Word of God that God was teaching to Dr and Dr was getting into print. How come we didn’t see that VAST difference? Because we ended up on the victim end of the Sower-and-Seed, that’s how! We drifted away from the pure Word in PFAL and went back to tradition and KJV "research" on our own with no 1942 promise to back us up. And our fruit tells exactly which 3 of the 4 "Sower and Seed" victim categories we fit into, when “all nine all the time” waa the standard which we were shooting for.
We got work to do. Thank God for His patience with us.
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OldSkool
U really love the memory of wierwille that u elevate it above all else...then cognitive dissonance kicks in and we get hammered with confirmation bias....Mike. Your love for wierwille above God and the man that died for you, the non-absent Jesus Christ is not good. In fact it's your problem and your ok with that. So what do I care.
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Bolshevik
Not only are you still separating JC and The Word, you're equating the "works" of VPW, PFAL, to The Word.
The 1942 snow was NOT The Comforter.
You're saying, "No no no, Christ is not absent, YOU are mistaken. . . . So anyway PFAL is The Word . . . focus on what VPW's 'original intent' . . ."
The Bible and PFAL are inanimate objects. Inanimate objects are DEAD. The Dead are NOT Alive. Or, ARE the Dead Alive Now?
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Nathan_Jr
Except at Starbucks.
Like Father like Son: there are some things Jesus Christ just cannot do.
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Nathan_Jr
What is an OLG?
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Bolshevik
"Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing to SEE JESUS that he’s urging with us OLGs to do. It’s for other grads too."
I'm guessing the last letter stands for "grads" . . . this is a special color of nametag
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Mike
The period of time I was describing there regarding OLGs (Older Leader Grads) was 1981-85, which may have been before your time. We leaders had been prepared for Craig way ahead of his coronation in '82.
Almost immediately after Craig became president, VPW had a stroke. Not sure of exact date. He was also visibly getting weaker and then had his eye removed. VPW was declining as Craig rose in the spotlight.
ALSO during the years 82-86, MUCH of the attention of the young Corps men that I knew personally was on getting onto the ministry payroll so that they could ditch their secular jobs. There was a competition among them for who will qualify for a regular check from HQ next. A few of them admitted this to me years later. This was all plain to see in the window cleaning industry, where I was attending and sometimes leading weekly breakfast meetings.
A big item I was addressing above was the big turn of attention away from VPW those years '82-'86 and onto LCM. Craig was handed power of the purse in 1982, and that turned a lot of heads in his direction.
We leaders did not see VPW calling such attention to seeking Jesus Christ in his later years.
You and a lot of the younger posters may have no knowledge of this transition period where attention was shifted from VPW to LCM, starting as early as 1981. I have studied in detail what VPW said and did during this period, because someone pointed out to me how things went down. When all this was happening, I was as oblivious to it as everyone else was. I did not come to any real awareness of this until after 1998.
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Mike
Sorry
OLG = Older Leader Grads
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Bolshevik
Actually my earliest memories include people talking about how The Fog is happening and how much people know about not knowing The Fog is happening.
You do realize that even in giving a simple history, you are showing the idea that those closer to VPW are higher in the pecking order?
Edited by Bolshevikrealizes he sucks at english
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