The Absent Christ?

[Bolshevik]

9 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

After thinking about your post, I feel they serve as an indoctrination tool ---> part of that rub in by repitition thing ---> mmmph....they were so rigid on those stupid cards in the way corps training. Kinda like some sort of fake hardship simulator training...

Absolutely the repetitive part . . . Repeat until the topic is accepted past your instinct 

I make flash cards to memorize topics and also use them on my kids  . . . Especially when there's such large volumes of information to absorb . . From that angle what's NOT indoctrination?  This is an A, accept that, This is a B, This is a C etc

. . . But the cards usually have a bigger connection to topics outside themselves

If you're memorizing a new alphabet, you accept the information as fact to build on later

[Bolshevik]

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

The film class and the book are very skimpy on mentioning the absent Christ.  Here is what the book says:

"I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ, and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God’s Word."

The best I understand that is the physical Word is taken in as food for the mind and our holy spirit coordinates this process. 

*/*/*/*/*

Believing works for saint and sinner alike, but the believer has access to the promises of God.  Believing is to be centered on the promises of God, not just any old thing. In this way we have an advantage over sinners.  Plus, believing is energized by love. 

*/*/*/*/*

You wrote:
"And if no man knoweth the hour what is anyone missing by Jesus being Absent?  It's all out of anyone's hands anyway."

What is not out of our hands is the ministry of reconciliation. That is very much in our hands until the Return. 

What people are missing by Jesus being absent are meetings over a table at Starbucks.

Please expound on what the "ministry of reconciliation"?

The Word, The Law of Believing, the Gift, Christ. . . You're not telling me why anyone would want these things

[Mike]

3 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Please expound on what the "ministry of reconciliation"?

The Word, The Law of Believing, the Gift, Christ. . . You're not telling me why anyone would want these things

I think you ought to ask God for these things.  Or get a hold of the collaterals and read them yourself.

[Bolshevik]

6 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think you ought to ask God for these things.  Or get a hold of the collaterals and read them yourself.

I've done both many times.

[Bolshevik]

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think you ought to ask God for these things.  Or get a hold of the collaterals and read them yourself.

Second, the collaterals are hard to understand, if that is even possible.  So I began asking humans.  Humans who have read the collaterals can't explain the collaterals.

Asking God for something doesn't make any imperative for him to answer.

[Mike]

11 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Second, the collaterals are hard to understand, if that is even possible.  So I began asking humans.  Humans who have read the collaterals can't explain the collaterals.

Asking God for something doesn't make any imperative for him to answer.

 

14 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

... Humans who have read the collaterals can't explain the collaterals. ...

Explaining the collaterals is not so difficult, but to an unwilling and resistant student, that explaining can get pretty impossible. 

Can you understand the peculiar challenges to me explaining the collaterals in a post or two, to a seriously resistant student, in a totally adversarial atmosphere, complete with circus clowns and shock DJ insults?

How badly do you want to know these things you ask me of?  How much work and time will you put into implementing the answers?

Would it be too much for me to ask you to take the initiative in proving to me your sincerity in wanting to learn?   How can you assure me I wont be wasting my time explaining all these things to you in text form here in public? 

[Bolshevik]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

Explaining the collaterals is not so difficult, but to an unwilling and resistant student, that explaining can get pretty impossible. 

Can you understand the peculiar challenges to me explaining the collaterals in a post or two, to a seriously resistant student, in a totally adversarial atmosphere, complete with circus clowns and shock DJ insults?

How badly do you want to know these things you ask me of?  How much work and time will you put into implementing the answers?

Would it be too much for me to ask you to take the initiative in proving to me your sincerity in wanting to learn?   How can you assure me I wont be wasting my time explaining all these things to you in text form here in public? 

Can I put myself in your shoes?  I could, but I don't know you, other than you present yourself as someone with vast knowledge the works of VPW.

I have taught classrooms and I know to have various ways to explain concepts ready because not everyone thinks the same.

I've asked you to explain what on earth VPW's works were about, and why anyone should waste their time trying to decipher their cryptic messages?

I'm asking you to get to the point and be concise.  This is the internet.

[Charity]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

Take a look at how 2 Peter works.  In chapter 1 he talks about his experiences with seeing Jesus in the flesh, but he ends it with saying he also has something more sure than those memories. 

 

This is where I'm at right now Mike - I am searching for knowledge and understanding in addition to what vp says about a topic so I can then compare the two.  1 Thess. tells us to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” 

After spending a lot of today reading 2 Peter 1 over and over again, I focused in on verses 16-19.  I read different versions and commentaries as well as used Bible Hub's interlinear website.  Then I compared it to what you said above, "he ends it with saying he also has something more sure than those memories."

I read something different in those verses.  So the question now is - do you want to know what I'm thinking?  If you do, I'll share it in a brief reply.  If you don't want to consider a different point of view - that's okay, I won't share it.  No judgment on my part either way.

[Mike]

24 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Can I put myself in your shoes?  I could, but I don't know you, other than you present yourself as someone with vast knowledge the works of VPW.

I have taught classrooms and I know to have various ways to explain concepts ready because not everyone thinks the same.

I've asked you to explain what on earth VPW's works were about, and why anyone should waste their time trying to decipher their cryptic messages?

I'm asking you to get to the point and be concise.  This is the internet.

The collaterals teach us how to read and understand the Bible. The way they do this is by handing us set of keys and perspectives that we are to get practiced at handling. 

The more we can understand and properly apply the Bible to our lives, the more we can enjoy the life God intended.  God wants us to have life and the devil wants to take it away, so there is a competition going on here, and it seems that we are on the losing side, in that everyone dies.

One of the major perspectives PFAL gives us to see in the Bible (as well as in our lives) is the fact that our being born into a crumby life behind enemy lines is only temporary.  Much can be done to improve life now and prepare a better life at the Return.

So, the motivation to know the details here, is the greater efficiency in living life, and greater efficiency in getting prepared for the next life, when Christ Returns. We love God when we see how much He loves us. This enables us to love others and teach them what we can.

[Mike]

37 minutes ago, Charity said:

This is where I'm at right now Mike - I am searching for knowledge and understanding in addition to what vp says about a topic so I can then compare the two.  1 Thess. tells us to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” 

After spending a lot of today reading 2 Peter 1 over and over again, I focused in on verses 16-19.  I read different versions and commentaries as well as used Bible Hub's interlinear website.  Then I compared it to what you said above, "he ends it with saying he also has something more sure than those memories."

I read something different in those verses.  So the question now is - do you want to know what I'm thinking?  If you do, I'll share it in a brief reply.  If you don't want to consider a different point of view - that's okay, I won't share it.  No judgment on my part either way.

I'm curious if you had spent any time in previous decades pondering those chapters in 2 Peter.   Was my handling of them brand new to you?   

For instance, had anyone taught you to look at chapter 2 as a parenthesis?  That would mean that the context at the end of chapter 1 resumes at the beginning of chapter 3.  Does your way of handling these verses include that feature?

Another thing to remember, and I hope you included this also, is that the words that Peter and the others heard coming out of the cloud were a "speaking for God" and prophetic in that sense.  Chapters 1 and 3 are about genuine speakings for God or speakers for God, while chapter 2 is about the counterfeit. 

If you had not included those items in your handling, please try to do so.

I'd be happy to hear what you get out of those chapters in 2 Peter. 

But do you see why I am not seeking experiences, like you were opining were a need in my life?   Experiences and the rush of believing that goes along with them, all fade with time.  But if you build the Word in your mind, and persistently act on it with love, that kind of believing can grow with time instead of fade.

[OldSkool]

10 hours ago, Mike said:

 

Explaining the collaterals is not so difficult, but to an unwilling and resistant student, that explaining can get pretty impossible. 

Can you understand the peculiar challenges to me explaining the collaterals in a post or two, to a seriously resistant student, in a totally adversarial atmosphere, complete with circus clowns and shock DJ insults?

How badly do you want to know these things you ask me of?  How much work and time will you put into implementing the answers?

Would it be too much for me to ask you to take the initiative in proving to me your sincerity in wanting to learn?   How can you assure me I wont be wasting my time explaining all these things to you in text form here in public? 

Im calling complete and utter bullshonta on this being an adversarial atmosphere for you without a very significant set of reasons. Mike, GSC is not a controlled environment and fake environment like TWI provides. Even home fellowships have no open and honest discussion on the material presented. Dissent is ostrascised, condemned and eventually shunned. Serious doctrinal discussions arent allowed either with the pat line being its in a class or collateral. You cannot function without this environment and it shows itself with your condescending attitude and veiled passive insults you hurl at those who disagree with the crap you bring to the table.

Who in the aftual efffk do you think you are? You fancy yourself a teacher? Teaching is not talking down to an audience and disallowing discourse where disagreement is squashed with cultish bullying tactics. Thats what the way international calls teaching and it wont fly here. 

Bolshevik grew up in the ministry, which makes him more qualified than you to speak on the way international. He can also show you first hand the damage caused by the way international's doctrines cause he's here sorting out a lot of those issues, same as me. Your attitude is insulting to anyone with a rational brain. 

Mike -- You either cannot or will not discuss the material you present when we respond with verifiable subject matter refuting the lies your idol told while he prowled the cornfields of new knowxville. You refuse to deal with any of this and retort with indoctrination attempts in an effort to brow beat us into compliance. In the end you wind up looking like a fool because the records you leave behind, and their refutation, tell the true story: That true story is you are blinded by the works of a deceased false prophet and ravenous wolf who made merchandise of God's people and he will one day answer for that to the non-absent Jesus Christ.

[OldSkool]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

The collaterals teach us how to read and understand the Bible. The way they do this is by handing us set of keys and perspectives that we are to get practiced at handling. 

 

Bullshonta! What you are saying here is telling. Why dont you say the real truth? For you the collaterals provide a set of rose colored glasses you can set astride your nose in order to filter and twist the Bible into meaning what the collaterals say it means. There are no keys, just blind indoctrination into a false doctrine that twists scripture to the point you no longer have scripture...you have Christianity without Christ.

[OldSkool]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

I'm curious if you had spent any time in previous decades pondering those chapters in 2 Peter.   Was my handling of them brand new to you?   

For instance, had anyone taught you to look at chapter 2 as a parenthesis?  That would mean that the context at the end of chapter 1 resumes at the beginning of chapter 3.  Does your way of handling these verses include that feature?

Chapter two is not a parenthesis. This is your lame @$$ attempt to ditch an entire chapter so you can have the Word your way. Mike - This isnt Burger Bible or Bible King where you can have it your way. Lets take a peek at chapter two and see why you want to make it a parenthetical figure of speech that can be glossed over resuming with chapter three.

Verse one sure introduces a category of people that wierwille represented to a tee:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Versus two and three hammer the point a little further:

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Verse 8 has the only legitimate parenthesis that's anywhere to be found:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

Ok...these verses really describe wierwille and the way international to the letter..'

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Boy Mike -- Its great seeing your father in the word described in such detail...Oh wait...then we come to a verse that completely disproves God can only speak to a lesser spirit that in turn is powerful enough to teach ones fleshly mind because God cannot do that according to the lies you tell...

But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb @$$ speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Well...Mike....I can see why you would want to ditch chapter 2 as a parenthesis. If that fails you could try and say that Peter was written to a different administration, except it wasnt, but the way international teaches that it was....You cant cherry pick your way out of doctrinal error and a side note with your time on GSC is you can never say you didn't know the truth. You have been told the truth that you flatly refuse to accept and continue to try and entice people back into wierwilles bondage.

Edited January 17, 2023 by OldSkool

[Bolshevik]

10 hours ago, Mike said:

The collaterals teach us how to read and understand the Bible. The way they do this is by handing us set of keys and perspectives that we are to get practiced at handling. 

The more we can understand and properly apply the Bible to our lives, the more we can enjoy the life God intended.  God wants us to have life and the devil wants to take it away, so there is a competition going on here, and it seems that we are on the losing side, in that everyone dies.

One of the major perspectives PFAL gives us to see in the Bible (as well as in our lives) is the fact that our being born into a crumby life behind enemy lines is only temporary.  Much can be done to improve life now and prepare a better life at the Return.

So, the motivation to know the details here, is the greater efficiency in living life, and greater efficiency in getting prepared for the next life, when Christ Returns. We love God when we see how much He loves us. This enables us to love others and teach them what we can.

Thank you for being concise.  

I will think on what you wrote here.

[Mike]

31 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

Thank you for being concise.  

I will think on what you wrote here.

Thank you for allowing me to say all that.  There is more.  What I typed out was roughly equivalent to the beginning of Session One in the film class.

We can talk about all this in Private Messaging or on voice phone if you would like. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Mike

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

Bullshonta! What you are saying here is telling. Why dont you say the real truth? For you the collaterals provide a set of rose colored glasses you can set astride your nose in order to filter and twist the Bible into meaning what the collaterals say it means. There are no keys, just blind indoctrination into a false doctrine that twists scripture to the point you no longer have scripture...you have Christianity without Christ.

 

So much of the Bible is self-evident – and needs no explanation (Psalm 119:130) – which speaks to the practicality of the Bible (Matthew 7:24) - and we find in choosing to do God’s will the Bible is self-authenticating (John 7:17).

In my opinion the Bible is not a book to be worshipped where  Gnostic-types  assume they can dole out gems of hidden meanings to appease their imaginary audience.  

Rather the Bible is a means to an end – and not an end in itself.

The Bible is really just a starting point.  

We contemplate the Holy Spirit-enriched contents, and then the Lord has something to work with   . I think if we make that a habit, there’s an ongoing process – a dynamic transforming relationship with the Lord (II Timothy 2:7).

Contrary to the picture that wierwille drilled into my head – that I desperately needed his PFAL class and thereafter would sit at his feet enthralled by his interpretation of the Bible.

I find that God has got an  all-in-one 'package'  going on: God the Father - - > Jesus Christ - - > the Holy Spirit - - > me reading, reflecting, and doing the will of God (I John 2:27).

 

New King James Version
The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple…Psalm 119:130

 

New International Version
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock…Matthew 7:24
 

New International Version
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own…John 7:17

New International Version
Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this…II Timothy 2:7

 

New International Version
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him…I John 2:27

Edited January 17, 2023 by T-Bone
Axis bold as love...I forgot to bold font 2 verse references :)

[OldSkool]

2 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

So much of the Bible is self-evident – and needs no explanation (Psalm 119:130) – which speaks to the practicality of the Bible (Matthew 7:24) - and we find in choosing to do God’s will the Bible is self-authenticating (John 7:17).

In my opinion the Bible is not a book to be worshipped where  Gnostic-types  assume they can dole out gems of hidden meanings to appease their imaginary audience.  

Rather the Bible is a means to an end – and not an end in itself.

The Bible is really just a starting point.  

We contemplate the Holy Spirit-enriched contents, and then the Lord has something to work with   . I think if we make that a habit, there’s an ongoing process – a dynamic transforming relationship with the Lord (II Timothy 2:7).

Contrary to the picture that wierwille drilled into my head – that I desperately needed his PFAL class and thereafter would sit at his feet enthralled by his interpretation of the Bible.

I find that God has got an  all-in-one 'package'  going on: God the Father - - > Jesus Christ - - > the Holy Spirit - - > me reading, reflecting, and doing the will of God (I John 2:27).

 

New King James Version
The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple…Psalm 119:130

 

New International Version
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock…Matthew 7:24
 

New International Version
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own…John 7:17

New International Version
Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this…II Timothy 2:7

 

New International Version
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him…I John 2:27

Awesomeness!! Thanks, I really appreciate what you posted!!

[OldSkool]

14 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Absolutely the repetitive part . . . Repeat until the topic is accepted past your instinct 

I make flash cards to memorize topics and also use them on my kids  . . . Especially when there's such large volumes of information to absorb . . From that angle what's NOT indoctrination?  This is an A, accept that, This is a B, This is a C etc

. . . But the cards usually have a bigger connection to topics outside themselves

If you're memorizing a new alphabet, you accept the information as fact to build on later

I love how your using cards the correct way in helping your kids learn. They have a proper place as a learning tool, as u demonstrate.

[waysider]

14 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

If you're memorizing a new alphabet, you accept the information as fact to build on later

Anki Cards

[WordWolf]

"We can talk about all this in Private Messaging or on voice phone if you would like."

JAL always wanted to take things off GSC and to the phone as well.  Once he did, it was non-stop commercials for JAL's books, classes, etc,  and all actual DISCUSSION had ended.

So, by now, this looks like an invitation to enter the nice van to get a lift to where the REALLY good candy is kept.

 

[WordWolf]

"How badly do you want to know these things you ask me of?  How much work and time will you put into implementing the answers?

Would it be too much for me to ask you to take the initiative in proving to me your sincerity in wanting to learn?   How can you assure me I wont be wasting my time explaining all these things to you in text form here in public? "

Over 20 years, and he still is either unable or unwilling to speak plainly- and he's been offered numerous chances to explain with whatever time he needed or at whatever length he needed. There has ALWAYS been an excuse, there will always be an excuse-

because, by the light of day and with full transparency, he's got SQUAT.  20 years of CLAIMING he's got something,  and still nothing.   That's someone relying on a dog-and-pony show to make up for the lack of actual substance and content.

[WordWolf]

BTW,

I'm curious if this "the Bible is good for something" business represents an ACTUAL change from "the Bible is 'unreliable fragments' and 'tattered remnants' " and Mike's actually changed his position to something healthier,

or if it's all smokescreen and Mike still believes the Bible's "unreliable fragments" and "tattered remnants" and he's intentionally lying to tell people what they want to hear.

I won't know because, when I asked Mike if he's actually changed position, he tried to GASLIGHT me and pretend he never badmouthed the Bible before. 

At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Mike can't remember he ever said that, has changed his position, and believes he now, retroactively, has ALWAYS had this new position.   His grasp of what the Bible says, the collaterals say, and what posts here say have always been tenuous at best.

[Bolshevik]

14 hours ago, Mike said:

The collaterals teach us how to read and understand the Bible. The way they do this is by handing us set of keys and perspectives that we are to get practiced at handling. 

The more we can understand and properly apply the Bible to our lives, the more we can enjoy the life God intended.  God wants us to have life and the devil wants to take it away, so there is a competition going on here, and it seems that we are on the losing side, in that everyone dies.

One of the major perspectives PFAL gives us to see in the Bible (as well as in our lives) is the fact that our being born into a crumby life behind enemy lines is only temporary.  Much can be done to improve life now and prepare a better life at the Return.

So, the motivation to know the details here, is the greater efficiency in living life, and greater efficiency in getting prepared for the next life, when Christ Returns. We love God when we see how much He loves us. This enables us to love others and teach them what we can.

Mike,

What I see in your 4 paragraphs, and I appreciate brevity, is a flow chart 

Collaterals/PFAL --> The Bible -->  Life --> Love 

See which way the arrows flow?  

Maybe try reversing the arrows?  Maybe your end goal was always available without all the layers you've given yourself.

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Bolshevik said:

Mike,

What I see in your 4 paragraphs, and I appreciate brevity, is a flow chart 

Collaterals/PFAL --> The Bible -->  Life --> Love 

See which way the arrows flow?  

Maybe try reversing the arrows?  Maybe your end goal was always available without all the layers you've given yourself.

Sure, I can reverse the arrows NOW, after 50 years of doing the original way.  But in 1972 I would not have been able to do such a reversal at all.  The only love I knew then was in Rock n Roll and hippie music, and that kind of love does not trace back well.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, WordWolf said:

BTW,

I'm curious if this "the Bible is good for something" business represents an ACTUAL change from "the Bible is 'unreliable fragments' and 'tattered remnants' " and Mike's actually changed his position to something healthier,

or if it's all smokescreen and Mike still believes the Bible's "unreliable fragments" and "tattered remnants" and he's intentionally lying to tell people what they want to hear.

I won't know because, when I asked Mike if he's actually changed position, he tried to GASLIGHT me and pretend he never badmouthed the Bible before. 

At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Mike can't remember he ever said that, has changed his position, and believes he now, retroactively, has ALWAYS had this new position.   His grasp of what the Bible says, the collaterals say, and what posts here say have always been tenuous at best.

I am a lot more aware of these kinds of things than I let on.  I wish you were more accurate in your characterizations of my position(s). 

I remember well the tattered remnants arguments, and they still have their place.   What I choose to emphasize in my arguments can depend on the topic.  I'd say there is more of an evolution in how I say things, more than actual positions changing. 

I wish you had picked up on my explanation 2 years ago of the Tom Strange saga of the orange book in Jesus' hand. Did you not see it? You repeat that over and over, and most posters have no idea where that came from or what my position really was.  I notice they pick up on it as if they had seen me say the original times many years ago.    I doubt if you have picked up on it had it not been for Tom Strange and his doggedly hounding me on that.  He never got it right, and repeated his orange book story over and over. 

Maybe I can dig up that explanation I did about 2 years ago, if memory serves me right. 

I think you finally got it right about the 1942 promise being documented much earlier than the 1972 WLIL book.  On that 1965 tape "Light Began to Dawn" there is an account of the 1942 promise.  There is also a tiny mention of it in the film class, but almost no detail.   I think it was Mrs Wierwille's  book that threw you off there. If you listen to the 1965 tape it sounds like it was NOT a first-time revelation to the audience, but more a filling in of detail for newer folks in the audience.