Acts 1:11 - This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” What is Jesus doing in the meantime Mike? He's not sitting on the right hand of God twidling his thumbs. I think being head of his church might keep him pretty involved with us - don't you?
Mike cant wrap his mind around the fact that Christ is no longer flesh and blood but a life giving spirit.
I'm beginning to think Mike's only hope is to go traveling on the road to Damascus and look out for a bright light from heaven. Maybe such an experience would make Mike see just how present Christ is in our lives.
Take a look at how 2 Peter works. In chapter 1 he talks about his experiences with seeing Jesus in the flesh, but he ends it with saying he also has something more sure than those memories.
Then in chapter 2 he warns us of those who are in error.
Then in chapter 3 he resumes the "more sure" topic by bringing up the set of all Paul's epistles.
I choose to NOT LOOK for experiences, but to the more sure items that are available. Experiences can mislead people.
I think you folks are just virtue-signalling with this word "absent."
I know Jesus is well hidden by God, and for a reason. I am happy God made Jesus very well hidden, because I understand why He did it. I will be even happier when He decides it is time for Jesus to Return to plain sight.
In the meantime we have the Epistles of Paul to guide us in our knowing the spirit of Christ within. Experiences are nice, but never guaranteed, and they always fade. Knowing the Christ within from the Word is something that can grow in time and never fade away.
Mike cant wrap his mind around the fact that Christ is no longer flesh and blood but a life giving spirit.
Yes, I can, and I just posted on it to Charity.
The life giving spirit of Christ is PRESENT, and I always teach that, and VPW always taught that.
The Christ that is present is spiritual and within.
The Christ that is absent is the flesh man, Jesus. You can't meet him at Starbucks, where he sits on one side of the table and you sit on the other side of the table.
When you walk into Starbucks, Christ's legs are behind your legs, when you taste the coffee, Christ's taste-buds are behind your taste-buds.
It would be cool if we could have coffee with Jesus, where we saw him, there on the other side of the table. We could ask him oodles of things! We could study his facial expressions, and get to know how he talks and communicates... it would be SO cool to have that kind of Starbucks experience with Jesus.... but Father says no.... not yet...
There are more important things in our curriculum He has for us to learn about the JOB Jesus had, and that we now have.
Once we taste this job experience relating to Jesus, then at his Return there will be plenty of time for Starbucks gazing across the table.
Until then, our JOB is to be the one gazed at, because we are providing the Word of life to the listener at Starbucks.
The life giving spirit of Christ is PRESENT, and I always teach that, and VPW always taught that.
The Christ that is present is spiritual and within.
The Christ that is absent is the flesh man, Jesus. You can't meet him at Starbucks, where he sits on one side of the table and you sit on the other side of the table.
When you walk into Starbucks, Christ's legs are behind your legs, when you taste the coffee, Christ's taste-buds are behind your taste-buds.
It would be cool if we could have coffee with Jesus, where we saw him, there on the other side of the table. We could ask him oodles of things! We could study his facial expressions, and get to know how he talks and communicates... it would be SO cool to have that kind of Starbucks experience with Jesus.... but Father says no.... not yet...
There are more important things in our curriculum He has for us to learn about the JOB Jesus had, and that we now have.
Once we taste this job experience relating to Jesus, then at his Return there will be plenty of time for Starbucks gazing across the table.
Until then, our JOB is to be the one gazed at, because we are providing the Word of life to the listener at Starbucks.
We don't replace Christ either and he is no longer flesh and blood. Try to actually read your Bible without thinking you already know what it means because some egomaniac blurted out lies.
Acts 1:11 - This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” What is Jesus doing in the meantime Mike? He's not sitting on the right hand of God twidling his thumbs. I think being head of his church might keep him pretty involved with us - don't you?
These types of things must be answered by the scriptures, and not by reasoning and feelings.
There was a Way Mag article once, not by VPW, titled "What is Jesus Doing Up There?" Do you remember it? We were taught that Jesus is our defense attorney. He makes intercession. He seems to co-ordinate the good angels. He does not make very many Starbucks dates, but I imagine that is possible. Is he available and on call 24/7 like his Father surely is? I don't know. We need to either wait on the Return for this kind of information, or wait until we see the Word talk about it.
*/*/*/*
I do remember a tape that VPW played for us at the 1975 AC. It was a testimony by a girl who had a horribly deformed spine. One day she had a vision of Jesus, and that he promised to heal her next Wednesday, or something like that.
The girl had her parents and doctor in the room when Jesus came to heal her that day. The girl was the only one who could see Jesus walk through the door. But her parents and the doctor could see her spine being straightened.
*/*/*/*
It was a very emotional tape, and there were many tears in our eyes. I can feel the impact of it today as I type this.
The life giving spirit of Christ is PRESENT, and I always teach that, and VPW always taught that.
The Christ that is present is spiritual and within.
You used the word "present" twice - once in all caps. Present only means being in a particular place. So once Christ has given you life and is now present (where?) in you, what else is he doing in you?
Please answer Yes or No Mike - After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth?
You used the word "present" twice - once in all caps. Present only means being in a particular place. So once Christ has given you life and is now present (where?) in you, what else is he doing in you?
Please answer Yes or No Mike - After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth?
You wrote: So once Christ has given you life and is now present (where?) in you, what else is he doing in you?
Why do you ask?Are you concerned that I am not allowing him to do more? Are you basing this on scripture or feelings?
To give me an better understanding of what you are asking me, why don’t you tell me what he is doing in in you now? Give me a full essay on it, please.While you are at it, please also give me the scriptures that guide your interpretation of the feelings you are having.
I still want to know why you ask this of me. Are you setting me up for a round of criticisms on my answer, so that you can discredit me on other matters?That is the strategy you are picking up from the company you keep.Or are you just concerned that I missed that brass ring of Christianity, because the collaterals blinded me?
If it is the latter, please give me your best, most full essay of the Christ at work within you today. Don’t forget the scriptures.
*/*/*/*/*/*
You wrote: Please answer Yes or No Mike - After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth?
I am struggling to understand what you mean here. It looks like you are building an analogy, but I am not sure. I will try a simple yes or no answer and see what happens.
After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? No.
Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? No.
Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth? No.
Now, how you want to apply all that to me still escapes me.Might you re-write what you are getting at?
Are you trying to supervise my internal thought and prayer structure?Are you pulling a Nazi Corps technique of mind control over me by implying that I don’t talk to Jesus enough in my prayer life?I thought you left all that supervision stuff behind!
These types of things must be answered by the scriptures, and not by reasoning and feelings.
There was a Way Mag article
I stopped reading right about here...why? Way rag is not scripture...not even close...so what they quote scripture...way rag is not scripture. Head over to Starbucks and ponder the meaning.
I stopped reading right about here...why? Way rag is not scripture...not even close...so what they quote scripture...way rag is not scripture. Head over to Starbucks and ponder the meaning.
There were scriptures in the Way Mag article.
The reason I mentioned it is because we were NOT taught that Christ was twiddling his thumbs up there. We were taught all sorts of good things, but the TVTs picked up some very bad stuff.
I think that all those grads who suffered from lack of awareness of the Christ within, and the Christ seated at God's right hand, were grads who paid a lot of attention to the TVTs and not nearly enough attention to the collaterals.
You said it would take scripture to answer the matter and instead of scripture you give a generic quote from an unidentified author from a magazine without a reference to the magazine itself. I'm out. Got way better things to do than do the troll-si-do with Mike again. No credibility.
I need to only quote one scripture:
John 13:3
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
God has literally given all things into Jesus Hands. Jesus Christ is running the show and God has elevated him above every name including victor Paul wierwille, who obviously didn't know Christ.
Bye Mike. Have better things to waste my time on than going in circles with you.
Wasn't this in the PFAL class? Help me out here, Mike. What session is it?
edit #2: Was it in that session where Wierwille says Christ is coming back as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords"?
Those crickets are starting to grate on my nerves.
Didn’t victor paul wierwille say Christ is coming back as God Almighty?
And, according to The Seventh THE Man of God himself, God approved of this statement when He told victor paul wierwille the ‘77 PFAL was a mistake because the ‘67 PFAL was perfect as is.
The 3x5 cards? Victor invented those, too, dontcha know?
He invented the 3x5 cards even before he prevented that Soviet nuclear attack.
Anyway, it’s established.
These were little business cards that came along with the way of abundance and power series from Lloyd. The made up a word by combining retain in memory to retemory...another snigglet. There was a card(s) for each session you were supposed to memorize. I used to have all of them memorized as well as all my way corps retemories from the pack of cards we got when we went in-res. I don't know if the started with craiggers or the vicster.
The 3x5 cards were an ever present reminder of how stupid twi leadership remained long after better methods came along. In-res we had 3x5 cards for everything...ludicrous.
These were little business cards that came along with the way of abundance and power series from Lloyd. The made up a word by combining retain in memory to retemory...another snigglet. There was a card(s) for each session you were supposed to memorize. I used to have all of them memorized as well as all my way corps retemories from the pack of cards we got when we went in-res. I don't know if the started with craiggers or the vicster.
The 3x5 cards were an ever present reminder of how stupid twi leadership remained long after better methods came along. In-res we had 3x5 cards for everything...ludicrous.
Retemories . . .
Because I can instantly quote Isaiah 26:3 having not thought of the verse in years, and having zero clue of the context . . . But the Word "stayed" suddenly makes me annoyed . . .
Wasn't this in the PFAL class? Help me out here, Mike. What session is it?
edit #2: Was it in that session where Wierwille says Christ is coming back as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords"?
Those crickets are starting to grate on my nerves.
Didn’t victor paul wierwille say Christ is coming back as God Almighty?
And, according to The Seventh THE Man of God himself, God approved of this statement when He told victor paul wierwille the ‘77 PFAL was a mistake because the ‘67 PFAL was perfect as is.
The crickets were due to waysider not generating a notification to me by quoting me with simple text.
As to waysider's question on the order of the names Jesus and Christ, I never studied that out in any detail. I remember no verses where it makes much of a difference for me. It may have come up briefly in the class, but I don't remember it.
*/*/*/*/*
Yes, VPW did mis-speak once in the class as waysider remembers it. I forget the exact wording, but do remember when running classes to be ready with the explanation if questions spill over. In some classes the instructor actually warned the students that VPW would misspeak at the end of the segment. It's not the only mistake in the film class, and that was the attitude we had back then: no big deal.
*/*/*/*/*
You got some of my PFAL'77 message wrong.
What I heard in that lunchtime announcement by VPW was that the idea for the project of replacing the 1968 film class did not originate from God, but from 5-senses discussions among top leadership.
Nothing at all was said about the 1968 film class being perfect.
Instead, he said something to the effect of "it will have to do" as is.
What was most clear to me was that God had told VPW that the replacement idea would not work.
Yeah. . . I was just thinking they had those cards with the verse on one side and the topic on the other.
Training in non-sequitor. . . Just associating a topic to a verse..
You're not building understanding and coming to your own conclusions
Isaiah 26:3 can be used to convince people that by focusing on The Word, they are focused on God. And likely not consider what they are really doing.
. . . Just a simple little card
After thinking about your post, I feel they serve as an indoctrination tool ---> part of that rub in by repitition thing ---> mmmph....they were so rigid on those stupid cards in the way corps training. Kinda like some sort of fake hardship simulator training...
If The Word takes the place of the Absent Christ what's the holy spirit (lowercase) for?
And if believing works for Saint and sinner alike what's The Word for?
And if no man knoweth the hour what is anyone missing by Jesus being Absent? It's all out of anyone's hands anyway.
The film class and the book are very skimpy on mentioning the absent Christ. Here is what the book says:
"I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ, and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God’s Word."
The best I understand that is the physical Word is taken in as food for the mind and our holy spirit coordinates this process.
*/*/*/*/*
Believing works for saint and sinner alike, but the believer has access to the promises of God. Believing is to be centered on the promises of God, not just any old thing. In this way we have an advantage over sinners. Plus, believing is energized by love.
*/*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"And if no man knoweth the hour what is anyone missing by Jesus being Absent? It's all out of anyone's hands anyway."
What is not out of our hands is the ministry of reconciliation. That is very much in our hands until the Return.
What people are missing by Jesus being absent are meetings over a table at Starbucks.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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OldSkool
Mike cant wrap his mind around the fact that Christ is no longer flesh and blood but a life giving spirit.
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Mike
Take a look at how 2 Peter works. In chapter 1 he talks about his experiences with seeing Jesus in the flesh, but he ends it with saying he also has something more sure than those memories.
Then in chapter 2 he warns us of those who are in error.
Then in chapter 3 he resumes the "more sure" topic by bringing up the set of all Paul's epistles.
I choose to NOT LOOK for experiences, but to the more sure items that are available. Experiences can mislead people.
I think you folks are just virtue-signalling with this word "absent."
I know Jesus is well hidden by God, and for a reason. I am happy God made Jesus very well hidden, because I understand why He did it. I will be even happier when He decides it is time for Jesus to Return to plain sight.
In the meantime we have the Epistles of Paul to guide us in our knowing the spirit of Christ within. Experiences are nice, but never guaranteed, and they always fade. Knowing the Christ within from the Word is something that can grow in time and never fade away.
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Mike
Yes, I can, and I just posted on it to Charity.
The life giving spirit of Christ is PRESENT, and I always teach that, and VPW always taught that.
The Christ that is present is spiritual and within.
The Christ that is absent is the flesh man, Jesus. You can't meet him at Starbucks, where he sits on one side of the table and you sit on the other side of the table.
When you walk into Starbucks, Christ's legs are behind your legs, when you taste the coffee, Christ's taste-buds are behind your taste-buds.
It would be cool if we could have coffee with Jesus, where we saw him, there on the other side of the table. We could ask him oodles of things! We could study his facial expressions, and get to know how he talks and communicates... it would be SO cool to have that kind of Starbucks experience with Jesus.... but Father says no.... not yet...
There are more important things in our curriculum He has for us to learn about the JOB Jesus had, and that we now have.
Once we taste this job experience relating to Jesus, then at his Return there will be plenty of time for Starbucks gazing across the table.
Until then, our JOB is to be the one gazed at, because we are providing the Word of life to the listener at Starbucks.
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OldSkool
We don't replace Christ either and he is no longer flesh and blood. Try to actually read your Bible without thinking you already know what it means because some egomaniac blurted out lies.
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Mike
These types of things must be answered by the scriptures, and not by reasoning and feelings.
There was a Way Mag article once, not by VPW, titled "What is Jesus Doing Up There?" Do you remember it? We were taught that Jesus is our defense attorney. He makes intercession. He seems to co-ordinate the good angels. He does not make very many Starbucks dates, but I imagine that is possible. Is he available and on call 24/7 like his Father surely is? I don't know. We need to either wait on the Return for this kind of information, or wait until we see the Word talk about it.
*/*/*/*
I do remember a tape that VPW played for us at the 1975 AC. It was a testimony by a girl who had a horribly deformed spine. One day she had a vision of Jesus, and that he promised to heal her next Wednesday, or something like that.
The girl had her parents and doctor in the room when Jesus came to heal her that day. The girl was the only one who could see Jesus walk through the door. But her parents and the doctor could see her spine being straightened.
*/*/*/*
It was a very emotional tape, and there were many tears in our eyes. I can feel the impact of it today as I type this.
Why are things like this so lost?
Does anyone remember that tape?
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Charity
You used the word "present" twice - once in all caps. Present only means being in a particular place. So once Christ has given you life and is now present (where?) in you, what else is he doing in you?
Please answer Yes or No Mike - After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth?
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Mike
You wrote:
So once Christ has given you life and is now present (where?) in you, what else is he doing in you?
Why do you ask? Are you concerned that I am not allowing him to do more? Are you basing this on scripture or feelings?
To give me an better understanding of what you are asking me, why don’t you tell me what he is doing in in you now? Give me a full essay on it, please. While you are at it, please also give me the scriptures that guide your interpretation of the feelings you are having.
I still want to know why you ask this of me. Are you setting me up for a round of criticisms on my answer, so that you can discredit me on other matters? That is the strategy you are picking up from the company you keep. Or are you just concerned that I missed that brass ring of Christianity, because the collaterals blinded me?
If it is the latter, please give me your best, most full essay of the Christ at work within you today. Don’t forget the scriptures.
*/*/*/*/*/*
You wrote:
Please answer Yes or No Mike - After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him? Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father? Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth?
I am struggling to understand what you mean here. It looks like you are building an analogy, but I am not sure. I will try a simple yes or no answer and see what happens.
After Jesus was baptized with holy spirit from God, did God stop having a relationship with him?
No.
Did Jesus stop having a relationship with Him either as Yahweh or as His father?
No.
Did Jesus only go by the written word in the Old Testament when he ministered to others here on earth?
No.
Now, how you want to apply all that to me still escapes me. Might you re-write what you are getting at?
Are you trying to supervise my internal thought and prayer structure? Are you pulling a Nazi Corps technique of mind control over me by implying that I don’t talk to Jesus enough in my prayer life? I thought you left all that supervision stuff behind!
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OldSkool
I stopped reading right about here...why? Way rag is not scripture...not even close...so what they quote scripture...way rag is not scripture. Head over to Starbucks and ponder the meaning.
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Mike
There were scriptures in the Way Mag article.
The reason I mentioned it is because we were NOT taught that Christ was twiddling his thumbs up there. We were taught all sorts of good things, but the TVTs picked up some very bad stuff.
I think that all those grads who suffered from lack of awareness of the Christ within, and the Christ seated at God's right hand, were grads who paid a lot of attention to the TVTs and not nearly enough attention to the collaterals.
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OldSkool
You said it would take scripture to answer the matter and instead of scripture you give a generic quote from an unidentified author from a magazine without a reference to the magazine itself. I'm out. Got way better things to do than do the troll-si-do with Mike again. No credibility.
I need to only quote one scripture:
John 13:3
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
God has literally given all things into Jesus Hands. Jesus Christ is running the show and God has elevated him above every name including victor Paul wierwille, who obviously didn't know Christ.
Bye Mike. Have better things to waste my time on than going in circles with you.
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Nathan_Jr
Those crickets are starting to grate on my nerves.
Didn’t victor paul wierwille say Christ is coming back as God Almighty?
And, according to The Seventh THE Man of God himself, God approved of this statement when He told victor paul wierwille the ‘77 PFAL was a mistake because the ‘67 PFAL was perfect as is.
Maybe I’m misremembering. Got to renew my mind.
Edited by Nathan_JrGlove fitting
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OldSkool
Get out your retemory cards...
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Nathan_Jr
The 3x5 cards? Victor invented those, too, dontcha know?
He invented the 3x5 cards even before he prevented that Soviet nuclear attack.
Anyway, it’s established.
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OldSkool
These were little business cards that came along with the way of abundance and power series from Lloyd. The made up a word by combining retain in memory to retemory...another snigglet. There was a card(s) for each session you were supposed to memorize. I used to have all of them memorized as well as all my way corps retemories from the pack of cards we got when we went in-res. I don't know if the started with craiggers or the vicster.
The 3x5 cards were an ever present reminder of how stupid twi leadership remained long after better methods came along. In-res we had 3x5 cards for everything...ludicrous.
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Bolshevik
Retemories . . .
Because I can instantly quote Isaiah 26:3 having not thought of the verse in years, and having zero clue of the context . . . But the Word "stayed" suddenly makes me annoyed . . .
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Mike
The crickets were due to waysider not generating a notification to me by quoting me with simple text.
As to waysider's question on the order of the names Jesus and Christ, I never studied that out in any detail. I remember no verses where it makes much of a difference for me. It may have come up briefly in the class, but I don't remember it.
*/*/*/*/*
Yes, VPW did mis-speak once in the class as waysider remembers it. I forget the exact wording, but do remember when running classes to be ready with the explanation if questions spill over. In some classes the instructor actually warned the students that VPW would misspeak at the end of the segment. It's not the only mistake in the film class, and that was the attitude we had back then: no big deal.
*/*/*/*/*
You got some of my PFAL'77 message wrong.
What I heard in that lunchtime announcement by VPW was that the idea for the project of replacing the 1968 film class did not originate from God, but from 5-senses discussions among top leadership.
Nothing at all was said about the 1968 film class being perfect.
Instead, he said something to the effect of "it will have to do" as is.
What was most clear to me was that God had told VPW that the replacement idea would not work.
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OldSkool
I start twitching at the mere sight of the word...
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OldSkool
Oh look, Mike needs attention...
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waysider
I'm gonna take a wild guess here.
Is it because they're undocumented and bogus?
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waysider
Yeah, sure. It's totally my fault for not telling you to follow the bouncing ball.
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Bolshevik
I quoted Mike 20-some hours ago and he hasn't answered. . . .
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Bolshevik
Yeah. . . I was just thinking they had those cards with the verse on one side and the topic on the other.
Training in non-sequitor. . . Just associating a topic to a verse..
You're not building understanding and coming to your own conclusions
Isaiah 26:3 can be used to convince people that by focusing on The Word, they are focused on God. And likely not consider what they are really doing.
. . . Just a simple little card
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OldSkool
After thinking about your post, I feel they serve as an indoctrination tool ---> part of that rub in by repitition thing ---> mmmph....they were so rigid on those stupid cards in the way corps training. Kinda like some sort of fake hardship simulator training...
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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Mike
The film class and the book are very skimpy on mentioning the absent Christ. Here is what the book says:
"I believe that The Word takes the place of the absent Christ, and that the holy spirit takes the place of Christ in us through God’s Word."
The best I understand that is the physical Word is taken in as food for the mind and our holy spirit coordinates this process.
*/*/*/*/*
Believing works for saint and sinner alike, but the believer has access to the promises of God. Believing is to be centered on the promises of God, not just any old thing. In this way we have an advantage over sinners. Plus, believing is energized by love.
*/*/*/*/*
You wrote:
"And if no man knoweth the hour what is anyone missing by Jesus being Absent? It's all out of anyone's hands anyway."
What is not out of our hands is the ministry of reconciliation. That is very much in our hands until the Return.
What people are missing by Jesus being absent are meetings over a table at Starbucks.
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