Looked it up - The first time that name Jesus was ever used was in June of 1632. Jesus, which is the name used by most English-speaking people today, is an English transliteration of a Germanic adaptation, of a Latin transliteration, of a Greek transliteration of an originally Hebrew name, that is simply Yeshua.
Looked it up - The first time that name Jesus was ever used was in June of 1632. Jesus, which is the name used by most English-speaking people today, is an English transliteration of a Germanic adaptation, of a Latin transliteration, of a Greek transliteration of an originally Hebrew name, that is simply Yeshua.
Biblical research is such fun
Right.
Research does not mean re-search. At least, it hasn't meant that for a few hundred years.
You can, contrary to what victor paul wierwille claims, go beyond what you've been taught. Far beyond.
Looked it up - The first time that name Jesus was ever used was in June of 1632. Jesus, which is the name used by most English-speaking people today, is an English transliteration of a Germanic adaptation, of a Latin transliteration, of a Greek transliteration of an originally Hebrew name, that is simply Yeshua.
Biblical research is such fun
Cool! I'm just glad God/Jesus Christ are smart enough to keep track of the changes...Hebrew Roots movement demands their followers use Hebrew names...well that and follow the mosaic law...anywho.
This is ...but...didn't wierwille parade some Dr around for the corps and said he was seed of the serpent..Dr. Barnett?...I heard the recount from Craig during my first advanced class...he spoke often on stage but it was a video class of him yelling for 40 hours
I don’t recall that
Wonder if wierwille was envious of someone who had a legitimate Doctor title - seems like typical wierwille character assassination though
This is ...but...didn't wierwille parade some Dr around for the corps and said he was seed of the serpent..Dr. Barnett?...I heard the recount from Craig during my first advanced class...he spoke often on stage but it was a video class of him yelling for 40 hours
I also heard about this. It was an external speaker VP brought in to speak to a group. VP prior told everyone he was born of the seed of the serpent so it was an experiment of sorts with the speaker being a test subject unbeknownst to him.
I also heard about this. It was an external speaker VP brought in to speak to a group. VP prior told everyone he was born of the seed of the serpent so it was an experiment of sorts with the speaker being a test subject unbeknownst to him.
Yes! Glad ya remember cause I was starting to doubt myself...I really hope someone here was there...anywho.
The way I recall it being taught was that he should be referred to as Jesus Christ when talking about him before he fulfilled his mission and Christ Jesus after he fulfilled his mission of becoming the Christ. Almost like Jesus was his name and Christ was his position. Some cultures that use honorifics still do something similar in that you address someone of a higher position by their title, instead of their name or before you say their name. For example, a student might address their teacher as "Teacher". Or you might address a family member according to their honorific family title rather than, or in addition to, their name. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the general idea.
TLDR: Jesus Christ before resurrection, Christ Jesus after.
edit: Wasn't this in the PFAL class? Help me out here, Mike. What session is it?
edit #2: Was it in that session where Wierwille says Christ is coming back as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords"? You know, that one where that we, as class instructors, were supposed to play down what Wierwille said and tell the class the Trinity implication was a slip of the tongue due to the emotion of the moment and his previous Trinitarian beliefs?
All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. John 16
~ ~ ~ ~
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.I Timothy 1
~ ~ ~ ~
Today I was reading these passages and reflected on all the times I heard wierwille and LCM vilify mainstream Christianity. At the time, it never occurred to me that what they did was wrong – or that I was just as wrong to support them and their anti-Christian ideology. Christ was missing from The Way International – and it wasn’t that Christ left – but that pseudo-Christian cult leaders excluded Him and His followers from their ministry.
When I appear before Him in judgement, I plan to use Paul’s plea of ignorance and unbelief for my defense…and hope for the best.
When I appear before Him in judgement, I plan to use Paul’s plea of ignorance and unbelief for my defense…and hope for the best.
I feel the same way...when I first realized it asked forgiveness immediately. I can say I was ignorant and in unbelief....still not a good feeling though. Hoping for the best too my friend.
All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. John 16
~ ~ ~ ~
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.I Timothy 1
~ ~ ~ ~
Today I was reading these passages and reflected on all the times I heard wierwille and LCM vilify mainstream Christianity. At the time, it never occurred to me that what they did was wrong – or that I was just as wrong to support them and their anti-Christian ideology. Christ was missing from The Way International – and it wasn’t that Christ left – but that pseudo-Christian cult leaders excluded Him and His followers from their ministry.
When I appear before Him in judgement, I plan to use Paul’s plea of ignorance and unbelief for my defense…and hope for the best.
Yeah man me too. Trying to fix it by my lifestyle before then too.
How many times does it say Christ is currently HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses.
Acts Chapter One counts as #1
Hebrews has one, that Oldiesman? found, so count #2
I was thinking about something today and found this old post of yours so I could share my thoughts with you.
God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father? John says that's just how we are to be with Godandwith him.
John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 that they all may be one, asYou, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,that all of them may be one, Father,JUST ASyou are in me and I am in you. May they ALSObe in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I was thinking about something today and found this old post of yours so I could share my thoughts with you.
God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father? John says that's just how we are to be with Godandwith him.
John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 that they all may be one, asYou, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,that all of them may be one, Father,JUST ASyou are in me and I am in you. May they ALSObe in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I'll have to go back to that October post of mine and read the context.
Meanwhile did you notice my post a few days ago, that the "absent Christ" phrase happens just once in the film class? ...and just once in the PFAL book?
There was never anything built on that word "absent." It is just a synonym for "hidden from sight" the way Acts describes it.
The kind of "presence" Adam and Eve had with God is gone. Since then the devil has owned the Earth and run most of the show. This will end soon. Then God's will can "be done on Earth as it is in heaven."
The way to deal with this period of time when Christ has not Returned is to look at how Paul handled it.
I think we were properly instructed how to handle this time period when Jesus is still hidden from sight as Acts puts it once, or absent as PFAL puts it once.
I know what kind of absence (physical) was taught us, and I know what kind of presence (spiritual) was taught us.
I realize that in some sectors of TWI, and especially after 1986, the spiritual presence of Christ got lost to some. But it is there in the collaterals.
I'll have to go back to that October post of mine and read the context.
Meanwhile did you notice my post a few days ago, that the "absent Christ" phrase happens just once in the film class? ...and just once in the PFAL book?
There was never anything built on that word "absent." It is just a synonym for "hidden from sight" the way Acts describes it.
The kind of "presence" Adam and Eve had with God is gone. Since then the devil has owned the Earth and run most of the show. This will end soon. Then God's will can "be done on Earth as it is in heaven."
The way to deal with this period of time when Christ has not Returned is to look at how Paul handled it.
I think we were properly instructed how to handle this time period when Jesus is still hidden from sight as Acts puts it once, or absent as PFAL puts it once.
I know what kind of absence (physical) was taught us, and I know what kind of presence (spiritual) was taught us.
I realize that in some sectors of TWI, and especially after 1986, the spiritual presence of Christ got lost to some. But it is there in the collaterals.
Sectors? . . . Nevermind
If The Word takes the place of the Absent Christ what's the holy spirit (lowercase) for?
And if believing works for Saint and sinner alike what's The Word for?
And if no man knoweth the hour what is anyone missing by Jesus being Absent? It's all out of anyone's hands anyway.
Meanwhile did you notice my post a few days ago, that the "absent Christ" phrase happens just once in the film class? ...and just once in the PFAL book?
There was never anything built on that word "absent." It is just a synonym for "hidden from sight" the way Acts describes it.
Hi Mike, even if the "absent Christ" phrase happens only those 2 times, the reality of it shows up in many of the practices within twi as this thread shows. One of those practices is how twi reinforces this belief in their doctrine without ever using that specific phrase. If you read the following, you'll see what I mean and if you reply, please speak specifically about what is written. Thanks.
____________________________
The words in purple below are taken from twi's article on the Great Principle (GP), the website for which is shown on page 1 of this thread.
Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say.
However, nowhere in this verse does it say the spirit of truth learns from God.
We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
This verse does not say “God…teaches…” Jesus says that all the Father has is his (Jesus’), then he says the spirit of truth shall take of mine (Jesus’) and shall shew it unto you. The Spirit of truth takes from Jesus! Jesus got the ax by twi!
The next verse – which they left out in their article – confirms verse 13.
14 He [the spirit of truth] will glorify me [Jesus] because it is from me [Jesus] that he will receive what he will make known to you.
Except it’s not. Absent is not a synonym of hidden. It’s just not.
Nice crawfish move, though.
Yep, "thesaurus.com" gives 47 synonyms for hidden - not one is "absent."
When we played "hide and seek" growing up, we were hidden but still present. If we were absent (left the playing area), the poor seeker was plain out of luck
The kind of "presence" Adam and Eve had with God is gone. Since then the devil has owned the Earth and run most of the show. This will end soon. Then God's will can "be done on Earth as it is in heaven."
Your quick reply above concerns only my first 8 words - the rest (called the context and the main point), you never even touched on.
God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father? John says that's just how we are to be with Godandwith him.
There was never anything built on that word "absent." It is just a synonym for "hidden from sight" the way Acts describes it.
Now your redefining the English language and not just Koine Greek. Hidden and Absent are not synanomous. Absent carries a rather negative connotation in relatio to the Lord Jesus Christ as he has never been absent, not present where he was supposed to be, not existing, lacking. Your wrong. Instead of bending words admit the error and move on.
Now your redefining the English language and not just Koine Greek. Hidden and Absent are not synanomous. Absent carries a rather negative connotation in relatio to the Lord Jesus Christ as he has never been absent, not present where he was supposed to be, not existing, lacking. Your wrong. Instead of bending words admit the error and move on.
Not even dignifying that with a meaningful response. Once again you show yourself incapable of admitting error which speaks to your character, ethics, and lack of credibility. Know-it-all attitude is a page straight out of wierwilles playbook and a direct result of his so called biblical research.
already AT Starbucks but you couldn't see him- hidden
Some people can "never admit an error is an error." If someone takes pride in that approach, they can't improve much, because they can't admit an error and move on- they need to construct elaborate cages of lies to preserve the original error- which was worthless to anyone else.
Not even dignifying that with a meaningful response. Once again you show yourself incapable of admitting error which speaks to your character, ethics, and lack of credibility. Know-it-all attitude is a page straight out of wierwilles playbook and a direct result of his so called biblical research.
I'm beginning to think Mike's only hope is to go traveling on the road to Damascus and look out for a bright light from heaven. Maybe such an experience would make Mike see just how present Christ is in our lives. Then Jesus can send him to preach to the lost souls in twi.
Not even dignifying that with a meaningful response. Once again you show yourself incapable of admitting error which speaks to your character, ethics, and lack of credibility. Know-it-all attitude is a page straight out of wierwilles playbook and a direct result of his so called biblical research.
When God hides Jesus with a cloud (Acts 1), and says he will Return someday, then no one is really going to see Jesus until that Return.
God hid Jesus for a reason.
God made Jesus absent for a reason.
It is temporary.
When God does the hiding, then hiding = absent.
I realize there are differences in the two words, but when you look at the context, Jesus is absent this minute and no religious feelings will change that. We must wait for the Return to see Jesus. He is GONE !
When God hides Jesus with a cloud (Acts 1), and says he will Return someday, then no one is really going to see Jesus until that Return.
God hid Jesus for a reason.
God made Jesus absent for a reason.
It is temporary.
When God does the hiding, then hiding = absent.
I realize there are differences in the two words, but when you look at the context, Jesus is absent this minute and no religious feelings will change that. We must wait for the Return to see Jesus. He is GONE !
You blatantly contradict scripture...but that's your problem
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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Charity
Looked it up - The first time that name Jesus was ever used was in June of 1632. Jesus, which is the name used by most English-speaking people today, is an English transliteration of a Germanic adaptation, of a Latin transliteration, of a Greek transliteration of an originally Hebrew name, that is simply Yeshua.
Biblical research is such fun
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Nathan_Jr
Right.
Research does not mean re-search. At least, it hasn't meant that for a few hundred years.
You can, contrary to what victor paul wierwille claims, go beyond what you've been taught. Far beyond.
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OldSkool
Cool! I'm just glad God/Jesus Christ are smart enough to keep track of the changes...Hebrew Roots movement demands their followers use Hebrew names...well that and follow the mosaic law...anywho.
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T-Bone
I don’t recall that
Wonder if wierwille was envious of someone who had a legitimate Doctor title - seems like typical wierwille character assassination though
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chockfull
I also heard about this. It was an external speaker VP brought in to speak to a group. VP prior told everyone he was born of the seed of the serpent so it was an experiment of sorts with the speaker being a test subject unbeknownst to him.
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OldSkool
Yes! Glad ya remember cause I was starting to doubt myself...I really hope someone here was there...anywho.
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waysider
The way I recall it being taught was that he should be referred to as Jesus Christ when talking about him before he fulfilled his mission and Christ Jesus after he fulfilled his mission of becoming the Christ. Almost like Jesus was his name and Christ was his position. Some cultures that use honorifics still do something similar in that you address someone of a higher position by their title, instead of their name or before you say their name. For example, a student might address their teacher as "Teacher". Or you might address a family member according to their honorific family title rather than, or in addition to, their name. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's the general idea.
TLDR: Jesus Christ before resurrection, Christ Jesus after.
edit: Wasn't this in the PFAL class? Help me out here, Mike. What session is it?
edit #2: Was it in that session where Wierwille says Christ is coming back as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords"? You know, that one where that we, as class instructors, were supposed to play down what Wierwille said and tell the class the Trinity implication was a slip of the tongue due to the emotion of the moment and his previous Trinitarian beliefs?
Edited by waysiderspelling
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T-Bone
All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. John 16
~ ~ ~ ~
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. I Timothy 1
~ ~ ~ ~
Today I was reading these passages and reflected on all the times I heard wierwille and LCM vilify mainstream Christianity. At the time, it never occurred to me that what they did was wrong – or that I was just as wrong to support them and their anti-Christian ideology. Christ was missing from The Way International – and it wasn’t that Christ left – but that pseudo-Christian cult leaders excluded Him and His followers from their ministry.
When I appear before Him in judgement, I plan to use Paul’s plea of ignorance and unbelief for my defense…and hope for the best.
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OldSkool
I feel the same way...when I first realized it asked forgiveness immediately. I can say I was ignorant and in unbelief....still not a good feeling though. Hoping for the best too my friend.
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chockfull
Yeah man me too. Trying to fix it by my lifestyle before then too.
Peace and Merry Christmas!
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Charity
I was thinking about something today and found this old post of yours so I could share my thoughts with you.
God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father? John says that's just how we are to be with God and with him.
John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,that all of them may be one, Father, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. May they ALSO be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
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Mike
I'll have to go back to that October post of mine and read the context.
Meanwhile did you notice my post a few days ago, that the "absent Christ" phrase happens just once in the film class? ...and just once in the PFAL book?
There was never anything built on that word "absent." It is just a synonym for "hidden from sight" the way Acts describes it.
The kind of "presence" Adam and Eve had with God is gone. Since then the devil has owned the Earth and run most of the show. This will end soon. Then God's will can "be done on Earth as it is in heaven."
The way to deal with this period of time when Christ has not Returned is to look at how Paul handled it.
I think we were properly instructed how to handle this time period when Jesus is still hidden from sight as Acts puts it once, or absent as PFAL puts it once.
I know what kind of absence (physical) was taught us, and I know what kind of presence (spiritual) was taught us.
I realize that in some sectors of TWI, and especially after 1986, the spiritual presence of Christ got lost to some. But it is there in the collaterals.
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Bolshevik
Sectors? . . . Nevermind
If The Word takes the place of the Absent Christ what's the holy spirit (lowercase) for?
And if believing works for Saint and sinner alike what's The Word for?
And if no man knoweth the hour what is anyone missing by Jesus being Absent? It's all out of anyone's hands anyway.
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Nathan_Jr
Except it’s not. Absent is not a synonym of hidden. It’s just not.
Nice crawfish move, though.
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Charity
Hi Mike, even if the "absent Christ" phrase happens only those 2 times, the reality of it shows up in many of the practices within twi as this thread shows. One of those practices is how twi reinforces this belief in their doctrine without ever using that specific phrase. If you read the following, you'll see what I mean and if you reply, please speak specifically about what is written. Thanks.
____________________________
The words in purple below are taken from twi's article on the Great Principle (GP), the website for which is shown on page 1 of this thread.
Referring to the gift of holy spirit, John 16:13 says, “…for he [it] shall not speak of himself [itself]; but whatsoever he [it] shall hear, that shall he [it] speak….” This implies that your spirit, the gift, hears and learns from God and obeys what He tells it to say.
However, nowhere in this verse does it say the spirit of truth learns from God.
We can see this again in verse 15. Jesus Christ says, “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he [it, the gift of holy spirit] shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” This is the first part of our basic principle—God, Who is Spirit, teaches your spirit.
This verse does not say “God…teaches…” Jesus says that all the Father has is his (Jesus’), then he says the spirit of truth shall take of mine (Jesus’) and shall shew it unto you. The Spirit of truth takes from Jesus! Jesus got the ax by twi!
The next verse – which they left out in their article – confirms verse 13.
14 He [the spirit of truth] will glorify me [Jesus] because it is from me [Jesus] that he will receive what he will make known to you.
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Charity
Yep, "thesaurus.com" gives 47 synonyms for hidden - not one is "absent."
When we played "hide and seek" growing up, we were hidden but still present. If we were absent (left the playing area), the poor seeker was plain out of luck
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Charity
Your quick reply above concerns only my first 8 words - the rest (called the context and the main point), you never even touched on.
God has always been HIDDEN or NOT VISIBLE to the 5-senses yet Jesus never called him "the absent God" or even "the absent Father." He never declared to the Jews that the scrolls took the place of the absent God. How close was Jesus with God, his Father? John says that's just how we are to be with God and with him.
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OldSkool
Now your redefining the English language and not just Koine Greek. Hidden and Absent are not synanomous. Absent carries a rather negative connotation in relatio to the Lord Jesus Christ as he has never been absent, not present where he was supposed to be, not existing, lacking. Your wrong. Instead of bending words admit the error and move on.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/absent
absent
1 of 3adjective
absent
2 of 3verb
transitive verb
absent
3 of 3preposition
Synonyms
Adjective
Preposition
ABSTRACTED, PREOCCUPIED, ABSENT, ABSENT-MINDED, DISTRACTED mean inattentive to what claims or demands consideration.
ABSTRACTED implies absorption of the mind in something other than one's surroundings, and often suggests reflection on weighty matters.
PREOCCUPIED often implies having one's attention so taken up by thoughts as to neglect others.
ABSENT stresses inability to fix the mind on present concerns due more to mental wandering than to concentration on other matters.
ABSENT-MINDED implies that the mind is fixed elsewhere and often refers to a habit of abstractedness.
DISTRACTED may suggest an inability to concentrate caused by worry, sorrow, or anxiety.
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Mike
not available to meet at Starbucks = absent
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OldSkool
Not even dignifying that with a meaningful response. Once again you show yourself incapable of admitting error which speaks to your character, ethics, and lack of credibility. Know-it-all attitude is a page straight out of wierwilles playbook and a direct result of his so called biblical research.
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WordWolf
already AT Starbucks but you couldn't see him- hidden
Some people can "never admit an error is an error." If someone takes pride in that approach, they can't improve much, because they can't admit an error and move on- they need to construct elaborate cages of lies to preserve the original error- which was worthless to anyone else.
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Charity
I'm beginning to think Mike's only hope is to go traveling on the road to Damascus and look out for a bright light from heaven. Maybe such an experience would make Mike see just how present Christ is in our lives. Then Jesus can send him to preach to the lost souls in twi.
Seriously though, this man needs deliverance.
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Mike
When God hides Jesus with a cloud (Acts 1), and says he will Return someday, then no one is really going to see Jesus until that Return.
God hid Jesus for a reason.
God made Jesus absent for a reason.
It is temporary.
When God does the hiding, then hiding = absent.
I realize there are differences in the two words, but when you look at the context, Jesus is absent this minute and no religious feelings will change that. We must wait for the Return to see Jesus. He is GONE !
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OldSkool
You blatantly contradict scripture...but that's your problem
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