I think you just got to the chewy caramel center...wierwille considered himself next to God and tried to function as the head of the Body of Christ, making him a thief and robber because he tried to enter in some other way. I had never really made that connection but now that you mention it. I wasn't around wierwille and came along late in the game, 1996. So, I just concluded that the way international was set there to take Christ's place. But now I see the progession more clearly:
Wierwille wanted to be God's right hand man and certainly billed himself that way.
Martindale wanted to take Wierwille's place as God's right hand man
Subsequent leadership - Rosalie rivenbark -- under counsel from their attorneys decided to do away with the central, charismatic leader because it's one of the earmarks of an abusive cult....so she called it Gawd's minustree...thereby sealing that little cornfield based, 501-c3 non-profit as God's ministry of deliverance and concealing herself as the wogfodat...which she never claimed outright...but yeah....but to them TWI and the BOD are the head of the body... I mean they do placements every year where they pretend they are placing members in the body of Christ...sad really....Thanks for bringing this into focus for me, I really appreciate it!
I take it Rosalie Rivenbark was not a charismatic kind of person - maybe more on the boring side , but the ministry was just as controlling under her leadership.
I questioned in my post whether that image of I AM THE WAY showing right above vp's head when teaching at the podium was a subliminal message to the believers. This may have been me leaning a bit toward a conspiracy theory since there are no facts to attest to it being the case. I'll do my penance later (). However, the deal of dismissing all members of the corps to shock them and then providing a conditional way back in (like a carrot on a stick) was a conspiracy because both vp and lcm secretly discussed it and agreed to do it. That was a big !
However, the deal of dismissing all members of the corps to shock them and then providing a conditional way back in (like a carrot on a stick) was a conspiracy because both vp and lcm secretly discussed it and agreed to do it. That was a big !
Yes, they had to have conspired on the plan. And not just the two of them, as became apparent when the same scenario played out in FellowLaborers of Ohio, just a short road trip away from HQ. Pretending some big spiritual catastrophe would doom us all if we didn't get in line. All a charade.
I am so happy read this!!!!!! Your welcome, Im just glad that I was able to help a little and very awesome to hear you are able to start putting TWI in the rearview. More importantly, you are on strong footing in your faith because it's on the Rock - Christ Jesus!!
Thank you OldSkool, I am blessed by your words. I'm sitting here thinking about the feelings I've had over the past few days. I mentioned joy earlier. Another one is feeling alive (which makes sense because everything about God, Jesus and the Word is life giving). You know, when I go on my walks, I talk to God about the things I'm learning and sharing on GSC and these new, insightful and energizing ideas come into my mind . This has to be God talking to me and I love it .
Alright, enough of this mushy talk, but it's just so intriguing.
I take it Rosalie Rivenbark was not a charismatic kind of person - maybe more on the boring side
, but the ministry was just as controlling under her leadership.
If anything, you've misstated things. Any time rfr was in charge of something, she micromanaged it to death. When she spoke in public, let alone taught, she had the personality of wet cardboard. She actually had a background as some kind of high school teacher or something but probably was the kind that put the students to sleep. When she took the reins of twi, twi got more controlling again.
I questioned in my post whether that image of I AM THE WAY showing right above vp's head when teaching at the podium was a subliminal message to the believers. This may have been me leaning a bit toward a conspiracy theory since there are no facts to attest to it being the case. I'll do my penance later (). However, the deal of dismissing all members of the corps to shock them and then providing a conditional way back in (like a carrot on a stick) was a conspiracy because both vp and lcm secretly discussed it and agreed to do it. That was a big !
I think you were probably right about that subliminal message.
As to vpw and lcm doing the "you're all fired, but if you grovel enough, you can come back" thing was done several times, and at least once to the FellowLaborers program. It worked, so they did it semi-regularly.
I remember upon more than one occasion of needing to turn in various little slips of paper indicating my compliance with, stand with, or support of various leaders having a particularly strong paranoia attack.
But the 6th Corps was also legendary for other shenanigans like the downstairs grill and pool area and the guy sleeping fugit elbowed in the gut to stand and do manifestations in the middle of Corps night teaching lol.
Any similar stories there? Curiosity lol.
I heard about that one. The story that went around was that, right in the middle of vpw speaking, someone asleep was nudged. "He just asked you to speak in tongues and interpret." The guy got up, immediately speaking- and interrupting vpw. vpw cut him off with "Sit down and shut up."
I think you were probably right about that subliminal message.
As to vpw and lcm doing the "you're all fired, but if you grovel enough, you can come back" thing was done several times, and at least once to the FellowLaborers program. It worked, so they did it semi-regularly.
I just read yesterday in Undertow about Charlene being confronted by vp for the first time. She idolized this man and was working at hq hoping to be accepted into the corps that September. She was also fairly new to the ministry and only 19 years old. He was crude and "barked" and "snapped" at her and then sent her and another young girl packing all because they were not aware of what a twig leader was doing. She was a groveling mess and vowed to do her best by the time she left the room in response to his "Get outta here." How non-Christlike!
I heard about that one. The story that went around was that, right in the middle of vpw speaking, someone asleep was nudged. "He just asked you to speak in tongues and interpret." The guy got up, immediately speaking- and interrupting vpw. vpw cut him off with "Sit down and shut up."
Yes that is the story. It was during the middle of a Corps night teaching. I thought it was Donnie with the elbow lol.
He also told stories about some hole in the floor in the Emporia dining hall that they would drop down to the lower floor and play billiards and cook extra food during announcements which were extra long.
She was a groveling mess and vowed to do her best by the time she left the room in response to his "Get outta here." How non-Christlike!
I read Undertow several years ago and it's an awesome book. I mean it sucks how she was treated...VPW didn't like Jesus Christ very much. Him and martindale both said we are to have no fellowship with Jesus, that he is absent and replaced by a book that didn't exist until 1455, we arent to praise him, talk to him, or pray to him ever.
Undertow is a cool book. Little Napoleon and his Biblical Research department.
You know the Way is a great reason why accredited education is a good thing. If you have people with advanced degrees in languages and Biblical topics that work with the rest of the body of Christ in higher education it can root out all the little bullshonta idiosyncrasies and illogics in scripture.
But the Way has never been able to achieve accredited status for its college or Way Corps training programs. Without credits, classes, topic schedules there is no accountability to what is taught or the quality of it. So it degrades to a self study half day work program where you are assigned PFAL.
No research because nobody has legitimate credentials because nobody went through education in Biblical studies.
Instead window washers, gardeners, and people with degrees in engineering and pharmacy teach spiritual topics.
And the logic is Jesus 12 apostles had no formal education.
It’s logic that does not want a standard it wants subjective power.
I read Undertow several years ago and it's an awesome book. I mean it sucks how she was treated...VPW didn't like Jesus Christ very much. Him and martindale both said we are to have no fellowship with Jesus, that he is absent and replaced by a book that didn't exist until 1455, we arent to praise him, talk to him, or pray to him ever.
You can use the search magnifying glass thing to look for them. Here’s the main one.
Thanks, I was finding that putting a word in the search box brought up different places where the word was used but I was hoping to find a whole thread specifically on that topic. Weird thing was, after I asked for an Undertow thread, I did try the search box again and this time it worked. Still figuring things out it seems.
Does anyone remember if we were told in twi that it was wrong to use the stand-alone name, Jesus? If so, what reason was given for this?
Yes. Jesus was what devil spirits called him when they wanted to insult him and wierwille associated his first name with the crucified savior, where Jesus Christ was the risen Christ that's not doing much but sitting next to God. Christ Jesus was for those in deep fellowship and could walk the pinnacle of the mystery - Ephesians. Don't know who he ripped off or if he made it up on his own...or whatever..haven't given it much thought in years.
Does anyone remember if we were told in twi that it was wrong to use the stand-alone name, Jesus? If so, what reason was given for this?
1 hour ago, OldSkool said:
Yes. Jesus was what devil spirits called him when they wanted to insult him and wierwille associated his first name with the crucified savior, where Jesus Christ was the risen Christ that's not doing much but sitting next to God. Christ Jesus was for those in deep fellowship and could walk the pinnacle of the mystery - Ephesians. Don't know who he ripped off or if he made it up on his own...or whatever..haven't given it much thought in years.
I have to verify, but the more I think about it wierwille likely lifted those name distinctions from Bullinger and The Companion Bible...I'll check when I'm home...unless someone beats me to it...
Does anyone remember if we were told in twi that it was wrong to use the stand-alone name, Jesus? If so, what reason was given for this?
Vaguely, yes. Just like it was wrong to wear a cross, or have a crucifix. It was carnal thinking with very little if ever consideration for what's in a person's heart and soul.
Does anyone remember if we were told in twi that it was wrong to use the stand-alone name, Jesus? If so, what reason was given for this?
1 hour ago, OldSkool said:
Yes. Jesus was what devil spirits called him when they wanted to insult him and wierwille associated his first name with the crucified savior, where Jesus Christ was the risen Christ that's not doing much but sitting next to God. Christ Jesus was for those in deep fellowship and could walk the pinnacle of the mystery - Ephesians. Don't know who he ripped off or if he made it up on his own...or whatever..haven't given it much thought in years.
Yes, I do remember the reason that OldSkool mentioned – I also remember another reason – but I’m fuzzy on who said it – I believe it was either wierwille or LCM…and it was along the lines of there’s a devil spirit named “Jesus” – and I think they cited the following passages:
New International Version For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
II Corinthians 11:4
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!Galatians 1:6 – 9
~ ~ ~ ~
That’s pretty ironic, in light of this thread topic. Paul’s beef with those who opposed him wasn’t anything personal – Paul would not stand for anyone misrepresenting the gospel of Jesus Christ [note the word “pervert” in Gal. 1:7]. What comes to mind is wierwille in PFAL session 1 – he presents Jesus Christ as the key to health and wealth.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is the message of the good news of salvation offered to humankind by grace through faith in the finished works of Christ on the cross. The good news is that we don't have to suffer the punishment for sin. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ in a nutshell - God provided the way for humankind to be freed from the penalty of sin.
Of course, TWI isn’t the only group that pushes a prosperity gospel. I guess it’s great for a marketing tool – but I wonder how many of those folks would be interested if all that Christianity offered was just Jesus Christ.
In the PFAL class, Jesus Christ is like the window dressing in the storefront of a pseudo-Christian-one-stop-shop for all your “Christian needs”. Everything in the store seems to have designer label looking merchandise – but it’s all knockoffs intended to look like something they’re not…kind of a bait-and-switch thing. You go into PFAL looking for truth – but you get PFAL is the touchstone for truth…Maybe you went into PFAL looking to learn more about Jesus Christ and to develop a deeper relationship with Him – but you were taught “the Word” [or rather wierwille’s interpretation of the Bible] takes the place of the absent Christ.
Well, you’re all set! You went into the pseudo-Christian-one-stop-shop for all your “Christian needs” with only $100 and you came out with lots of designer label looking merchandise. Oh boy! Make sure you take advantage of the subscription service – as a member of The Way International you’ll enjoy contributing at least 15% of your income and can take the PFAL class again for free – as long as you help with setup, driving new students to and from class, and chipping in for coffee. You’ll also earn infernal reward points, good toward allowing you to make the minimum required donation to other classes…Just because Christ is absent doesn’t mean your generosity should be.
Yes. Jesus was what devil spirits called him when they wanted to insult him and wierwille associated his first name with the crucified savior, where Jesus Christ was the risen Christ that's not doing much but sitting next to God. Christ Jesus was for those in deep fellowship and could walk the pinnacle of the mystery - Ephesians. Don't know who he ripped off or if he made it up on his own...or whatever..haven't given it much thought in years.
I thought of it today when I was reading "The Way Changing" thread but decided to ask my question on this thread. I've had to overcome a strong aversion to saying "Jesus" because of twi, probably because of one of the reasons you give above. I can remember now hearing that Jesus was the humiliated man - mocked, beaten and crucified, and how it fit together with twi's teaching that the gospels were not written to us - they were only for our learning. And since our learning was suppose to come from pfal materials and the epistles, I hardly read the gospels.
It all led to the absent Jesus in my life a well as the absent Christ. To know Jesus' life as a man, who can relate to all our pain and suffering because he was a man, to see his relationship with his father, both as a man and as the son of God leads to the conclusion that the gospels are a trove of learning for believers today.
Yes - and there's some of that fearmongering in there too - anything wierwille wanted you to avoid he would slap a label on it - it's a devil spirit...they are devil possessed...they're wrong seed...they're under demonic oppression.
I also remember another reason – but I’m fuzzy on who said it – I believe it was either wierwille or LCM…and it was along the lines of there’s a devil spirit named “Jesus” – and I think they cited the following passages:
Oh Snap!! I forgot all about LCM and that devil spirits named Jesus...not sure if craiggers got that from wierwille ...likely did...anti-Christ to the corps.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
Posted Images
Charity
I take it Rosalie Rivenbark was not a charismatic kind of person - maybe more on the boring side
, but the ministry was just as controlling under her leadership.
I questioned in my post whether that image of I AM THE WAY showing right above vp's head when teaching at the podium was a subliminal message to the believers. This may have been me leaning a bit toward a conspiracy theory
since there are no facts to attest to it being the case. I'll do my penance later (
). However, the deal of dismissing all members of the corps to shock them and then providing a conditional way back in (like a carrot on a stick) was a conspiracy because both vp and lcm secretly discussed it and agreed to do it. That was a big 
!
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waysider
Yes, they had to have conspired on the plan. And not just the two of them, as became apparent when the same scenario played out in FellowLaborers of Ohio, just a short road trip away from HQ. Pretending some big spiritual catastrophe would doom us all if we didn't get in line. All a charade.
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Charity
Thank you OldSkool, I am blessed by your words. I'm sitting here thinking about the feelings I've had over the past few days. I mentioned joy earlier. Another one is feeling alive (which makes sense because everything about God, Jesus and the Word is life giving). You know, when I go on my walks, I talk to God about the things I'm learning and sharing on GSC and these new, insightful and energizing ideas come into my mind
. This has to be God talking to me and I love it 
.
Alright, enough of this mushy talk, but it's just so intriguing.
Take care,
Darlene
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WordWolf
I think you were probably right about that subliminal message.
As to vpw and lcm doing the "you're all fired, but if you grovel enough, you can come back" thing was done several times, and at least once to the FellowLaborers program. It worked, so they did it semi-regularly.
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WordWolf
I heard about that one. The story that went around was that, right in the middle of vpw speaking, someone asleep was nudged. "He just asked you to speak in tongues and interpret." The guy got up, immediately speaking- and interrupting vpw. vpw cut him off with "Sit down and shut up."
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Charity
I just read yesterday in Undertow about Charlene being confronted by vp for the first time. She idolized this man and was working at hq hoping to be accepted into the corps that September. She was also fairly new to the ministry and only 19 years old. He was crude and "barked" and "snapped" at her and then sent her and another young girl packing all because they were not aware of what a twig leader was doing. She was a groveling mess and vowed to do her best by the time she left the room in response to his "Get outta here." How non-Christlike!
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chockfull
Yes that is the story. It was during the middle of a Corps night teaching. I thought it was Donnie with the elbow lol.
He also told stories about some hole in the floor in the Emporia dining hall that they would drop down to the lower floor and play billiards and cook extra food during announcements which were extra long.
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OldSkool
I read Undertow several years ago and it's an awesome book. I mean it sucks how she was treated...VPW didn't like Jesus Christ very much. Him and martindale both said we are to have no fellowship with Jesus, that he is absent and replaced by a book that didn't exist until 1455, we arent to praise him, talk to him, or pray to him ever.
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chockfull
Undertow is a cool book. Little Napoleon and his Biblical Research department.
You know the Way is a great reason why accredited education is a good thing. If you have people with advanced degrees in languages and Biblical topics that work with the rest of the body of Christ in higher education it can root out all the little bullshonta idiosyncrasies and illogics in scripture.
But the Way has never been able to achieve accredited status for its college or Way Corps training programs. Without credits, classes, topic schedules there is no accountability to what is taught or the quality of it. So it degrades to a self study half day work program where you are assigned PFAL.
No research because nobody has legitimate credentials because nobody went through education in Biblical studies.
Instead window washers, gardeners, and people with degrees in engineering and pharmacy teach spiritual topics.
And the logic is Jesus 12 apostles had no formal education.
It’s logic that does not want a standard it wants subjective power.
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Charity
Was there a discussion about the book on GSC?
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chockfull
You can use the search magnifying glass thing to look for them. Here’s the main one.
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Charity
Thanks, I was finding that putting a word in the search box brought up different places where the word was used but I was hoping to find a whole thread specifically on that topic. Weird thing was, after I asked for an Undertow thread, I did try the search box again and this time it worked. Still figuring things out it seems.
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Charity
Does anyone remember if we were told in twi that it was wrong to use the stand-alone name, Jesus? If so, what reason was given for this?
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OldSkool
Yes. Jesus was what devil spirits called him when they wanted to insult him and wierwille associated his first name with the crucified savior, where Jesus Christ was the risen Christ that's not doing much but sitting next to God. Christ Jesus was for those in deep fellowship and could walk the pinnacle of the mystery - Ephesians. Don't know who he ripped off or if he made it up on his own...or whatever..haven't given it much thought in years.
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OldSkool
I have to verify, but the more I think about it wierwille likely lifted those name distinctions from Bullinger and The Companion Bible...I'll check when I'm home...unless someone beats me to it...
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oldiesman
Vaguely, yes. Just like it was wrong to wear a cross, or have a crucifix. It was carnal thinking with very little if ever consideration for what's in a person's heart and soul.
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Nathan_Jr
I wonder what his mom and brothers called him?
The letter J did not exist in the 1st century. So much for getting back to the original. Bless his little heart....
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OldSkool
Yeshua...variations of Yeshua.
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T-Bone
Yes, I do remember the reason that OldSkool mentioned – I also remember another reason – but I’m fuzzy on who said it – I believe it was either wierwille or LCM…and it was along the lines of there’s a devil spirit named “Jesus” – and I think they cited the following passages:
New International Version
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
II Corinthians 11:4
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! Galatians 1:6 – 9
~ ~ ~ ~
That’s pretty ironic, in light of this thread topic. Paul’s beef with those who opposed him wasn’t anything personal – Paul would not stand for anyone misrepresenting the gospel of Jesus Christ [note the word “pervert” in Gal. 1:7]. What comes to mind is wierwille in PFAL session 1 – he presents Jesus Christ as the key to health and wealth.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is the message of the good news of salvation offered to humankind by grace through faith in the finished works of Christ on the cross. The good news is that we don't have to suffer the punishment for sin. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ in a nutshell - God provided the way for humankind to be freed from the penalty of sin.
Of course, TWI isn’t the only group that pushes a prosperity gospel. I guess it’s great for a marketing tool – but I wonder how many of those folks would be interested if all that Christianity offered was just Jesus Christ.
In the PFAL class, Jesus Christ is like the window dressing in the storefront of a pseudo-Christian-one-stop-shop for all your “Christian needs”. Everything in the store seems to have designer label looking merchandise – but it’s all knockoffs intended to look like something they’re not…kind of a bait-and-switch thing. You go into PFAL looking for truth – but you get PFAL is the touchstone for truth…Maybe you went into PFAL looking to learn more about Jesus Christ and to develop a deeper relationship with Him – but you were taught “the Word” [or rather wierwille’s interpretation of the Bible] takes the place of the absent Christ.
Well, you’re all set! You went into the pseudo-Christian-one-stop-shop for all your “Christian needs” with only $100 and you came out with lots of designer label looking merchandise. Oh boy! Make sure you take advantage of the subscription service – as a member of The Way International you’ll enjoy contributing at least 15% of your income and can take the PFAL class again for free – as long as you help with setup, driving new students to and from class, and chipping in for coffee. You’ll also earn infernal reward points, good toward allowing you to make the minimum required donation to other classes…Just because Christ is absent doesn’t mean your generosity should be.
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Nathan_Jr
Right
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Charity
I thought of it today when I was reading "The Way Changing" thread but decided to ask my question on this thread. I've had to overcome a strong aversion to saying "Jesus" because of twi, probably because of one of the reasons you give above. I can remember now hearing that Jesus was the humiliated man - mocked, beaten and crucified, and how it fit together with twi's teaching that the gospels were not written to us - they were only for our learning. And since our learning was suppose to come from pfal materials and the epistles, I hardly read the gospels.
It all led to the absent Jesus in my life a well as the absent Christ. To know Jesus' life as a man, who can relate to all our pain and suffering because he was a man, to see his relationship with his father, both as a man and as the son of God leads to the conclusion that the gospels are a trove of learning for believers today.
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Nathan_Jr
So much devil spirit, so little God.
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T-Bone
Yes - and there's some of that fearmongering in there too - anything wierwille wanted you to avoid he would slap a label on it - it's a devil spirit...they are devil possessed...they're wrong seed...they're under demonic oppression.
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OldSkool
Oh Snap!! I forgot all about LCM and that devil spirits named Jesus...not sure if craiggers got that from wierwille ...likely did...anti-Christ to the corps.
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