I think I found my mistake. When I had asked what “scribe mode” meant, your answer was “grammatical experts” and added that these were the ones who wandered around correcting Jesus on various things like healing a man on the Sabbath.So then going back to your statement to me, “How about focusing on the other question rather than back into scribe mode on this,” I thought you were saying that I had been in a scribe mode which meant I was being like those correcting-grammatical experts. When I asked if this was what you were saying, I included John 5:15,16 because it had to do with your example of Jesus healing a man on the Sabbath. This is where I let my emotions take me over the top.
Looking back, it would have been better to have simply asked if you were implying that I was in the grammatical-expert mode and if so, why.After going through everyone’s postings for the past 3 pages in search of the ones that were between the two of us, I saw how I probably did go into the scribe mode when I quoted Rom 10:8-13 in response to your questions.
I also realize that I had detoured from what you wanted to discuss: whether confessing Rom 10:9,10 entailed a rote formulaic approach to the new birth as well as how you thought that PFAL’s version of the new birth was to go through a Rom 10:9,10 checklist thereby forgetting about or replacing Jesus. My apologies on both matters. I do feel that this is an important topic, so I will begin to respond to it in my next posting to you.
It’s all fine. No worries. The scribe mode snarky comment is as much to myself as anyone on this forum. I wasted so many years of my life on meaningless bullshonta arguments over the minutiae of scripture all while missing out on meaningful relationships with other Christians and honestly distancing Christ from my relationship.
We can talk about whatever you guys want it’s fine.
I finally had a wake up call regarding my old 3x5 solution for the universe scripture studies when I ran across a verse talking about how Jesus taught like one with authority not like the scribes.
So I looked up grammeteis in the Greek and saw too much of myself there.
did not mean for you to take it seriously- just playing off your post of not being sure what was meant
hopefully you weren’t offended
No, except your attempt at being funny was about me, hence my question asking if there was something I should know. I'm picky and often too serious about the "details" in almost everything I do (housework, writing report cards, learning about things) - it's a blessing and a curse.
I could ask for more details about your comment "just playing off your post of not being sure what was meant," but I won't for 2 reasons: I've already spent enough time today going over the details in Chockfull and my posts in order to get things right between us; and I need to be more lighthearted about things.
Ok…just thought a little friendly fun might make you feel more comfortable and welcomed.
5 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
Ok…just thought a little friendly fun might make you feel more comfortable and welcomed.
Hi T-Bone, I was editing my last post to you when you sent your last two posts to me. I do get it now, not the noob thing, but what you said earlier and it's sweet of you to want me to feel more comfortable and welcomed.
It’s all fine. No worries. The scribe mode snarky comment is as much to myself as anyone on this forum. I wasted so many years of my life on meaningless bullshonta arguments over the minutiae of scripture all while missing out on meaningful relationships with other Christians and honestly distancing Christ from my relationship.
We can talk about whatever you guys want it’s fine.
I finally had a wake up call regarding my old 3x5 solution for the universe scripture studies when I ran across a verse talking about how Jesus taught like one with authority not like the scribes.
So I looked up grammeteis in the Greek and saw too much of myself there.
Read "how to play the game threads" and the first few posts of any thread, and the last page or so, to get the rules, general play, and where we're at now. You can choose to join any thread, all of them, or none of them, or join one and then just stop posting on it, as you see fit. The only catch is that play is on "the honor system" - we agree not to cheat. (Explanations are on the threads.)
Hoping you can connect with me.I woke up at 3:30 this morning and couldn’t get back to sleep.I began to work on a jigsaw puzzle online and then it all became overwhelming to me.It’s like the opposite of seeing the light because there’s nothing joyful about it.It’s more like seeing the darkness and it hurts.I’ve just been letting the tears flow.
Between reading over for the past couple of weeks all your horrendous experiences in the Corp and within the ministry overall, as well as recalling what went on in my own life during that time and then on top of this, I began reading “Undertow” yesterday, the rose colored glasses I’ve obviously still been wearing about certain aspects of twi are coming off and it feels so, so sad.Even the doctrine I’ve been holding onto as being accurate has gone up in smoke. I think I'm heading into the last stage of grieving - acceptance.
Over the past couple of hours, I‘ve been chucking out every memory that came to me - just wanting to obliterate the whole existence of twi from my mind.There are feelings of anger and disgust about what a total waste of my life it was.My children are the only saving grace in all of it.My youngest was born while I was in the ministry and when I left 1986, they were 3, 6 and 9. The joy they gave me just by being kids, I’ll never forget.
Starting to calm down now as I edit my words so they make some sense.I’m feeling exhausted, both physically and mentally. You all seem to have survived this stage so I know there’s light at the end of the tunnel.
Hoping you can connect with me.I woke up at 3:30 this morning and couldn’t get back to sleep.I began to work on a jigsaw puzzle online and then it all became overwhelming to me.It’s like the opposite of seeing the light because there’s nothing joyful about it.It’s more like seeing the darkness and it hurts.I’ve just been letting the tears flow.
Between reading over for the past couple of weeks all your horrendous experiences in the Corp and within the ministry overall, as well as recalling what went on in my own life during that time and then on top of this, I began reading “Undertow” yesterday, the rose colored glasses I’ve obviously still been wearing about certain aspects of twi are coming off and it feels so, so sad.Even the doctrine I’ve been holding onto as being accurate has gone up in smoke. I think I'm heading into the last stage of grieving - acceptance.
Over the past couple of hours, I‘ve been chucking out every memory that came to me - just wanting to obliterate the whole existence of twi from my mind.There are feelings of anger and disgust about what a total waste of my life it was.My children are the only saving grace in all of it.My youngest was born while I was in the ministry and when I left 1986, they were 3, 6 and 9. The joy they gave me just by being kids, I’ll never forget.
Starting to calm down now as I edit my words so they make some sense.I’m feeling exhausted, both physically and mentally. You all seem to have survived this stage so I know there’s light at the end of the tunnel.
Morning. What you are going through is normal. I went through the same process. Basically, it's the same as grieving. I'm at work, so can't provide a link atm, but look up 5 stages of grieving.. Basically you are dealing with loss. It gets better and being free from two breaks a cycle of bondage that only gets worse. Your on the right track.
I know I've let go of a lot of stuff over the years but this is letting go of everything, even of the honeymoon stage from my first fellowship to going on the field. The hardest part is letting go of my belief that God led me to that first fellowship because I so needed deliverance and had thought I'd found it. Now I realize God would not have led me to a group where top leadership was doing the one thing that I wanted to be rescued from when I joined that group. I wonder what God's real plan was back then for me to find Him, his son and true freedom. The good news is now Jesus can show me which way to go with me knowing not to expect the trappings of a "perfect doctrine and perfect people."
I know I've let go of a lot of stuff over the years but this is letting go of everything, even of the honeymoon stage from my first fellowship to going on the field. The hardest part is letting go of my belief that God led me to that first fellowship because I so needed deliverance and had thought I'd found it. Now I realize God would not have led me to a group where top leadership was doing the one thing that I wanted to be rescued from when I joined that group. I wonder what God's real plan was back then for me to find Him, his son and true freedom. The good news is now Jesus can show me which way to go with me knowing not to expect the trappings of a "perfect doctrine and perfect people."
I'll post more when I'm home. But..you are experiencing loss and deep loss at that. Remember his Word does not return void. More later...hang in there...it gets better from here....though it comes and goes in waves.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out.
From where I was in my life when I got in, that was an improvement. Getting out of twi is always an improvement.
As for after, God is not that small that He can only be reached with twi or even ex-twi. Learning not to freak out over differences in doctrine helped a lot.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out.
From where I was in my life when I got in, that was an improvement. Getting out of twi is always an improvement.
As for after, God is not that small that He can only be reached with twi or even ex-twi. Learning not to freak out over differences in doctrine helped a lot.
Thanks WW for sharing your truth about going in and later coming out of twi.
My honeymoon stage with the ministry before going WOW was not that long – maybe 8 months.During that time, good things did happen like: (some of which were probably common to the honeymoon period of other people)
- my first fellowship blew me away in comparison to any church experience I had known before (RC, Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic RC)
- the first time I heard about our righteous standing in Christ before God after years of sin-consciousness
- taking the class with loving wow’s there each night and speaking in tongues at the end (I wrote about this previously)
- being only 18 and having so much fun together (going dancing at a bar, playing silly games at fellowship like “Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar,” having potlucks…)
- taught for my first time at fellowship about what carrying the cross by Jesus meant for us spiritually (for someone who since being a child felt most comfortable going unnoticed by others, I actually felt radiant the whole time because it was about God and Jesus)
- dating a wow ambassador who played the guitar and sang songs to me like “Please Come to Boston” and “Sunshine on my Shoulders,” was very funny, a great teacher and most of all, treating me with respect
- going to my first Rock of Ages
I know I’ll still remember those times now and again but not with rose colored glasses on any more.That time was built upon this huge sand dune.Once I went wow, the reality of what twi was all about began to show and over the years, the wind blew all the particles of sand away and great was the fall.That’s why, for me personally, I prefer to see all those years as lost, fallen into some black hole in the galaxy.
Hoping you can connect with me.I woke up at 3:30 this morning and couldn’t get back to sleep.I began to work on a jigsaw puzzle online and then it all became overwhelming to me.It’s like the opposite of seeing the light because there’s nothing joyful about it.It’s more like seeing the darkness and it hurts.I’ve just been letting the tears flow.
Between reading over for the past couple of weeks all your horrendous experiences in the Corp and within the ministry overall, as well as recalling what went on in my own life during that time and then on top of this, I began reading “Undertow” yesterday, the rose colored glasses I’ve obviously still been wearing about certain aspects of twi are coming off and it feels so, so sad.Even the doctrine I’ve been holding onto as being accurate has gone up in smoke. I think I'm heading into the last stage of grieving - acceptance.
Over the past couple of hours, I‘ve been chucking out every memory that came to me - just wanting to obliterate the whole existence of twi from my mind.There are feelings of anger and disgust about what a total waste of my life it was.My children are the only saving grace in all of it.My youngest was born while I was in the ministry and when I left 1986, they were 3, 6 and 9. The joy they gave me just by being kids, I’ll never forget.
Starting to calm down now as I edit my words so they make some sense.I’m feeling exhausted, both physically and mentally. You all seem to have survived this stage so I know there’s light at the end of the tunnel.
Hi Charity,
I’ve found there are two well-known models for dealing with grief and loss. One is from Elisabeth Kübler-Ross a Swiss-American psychiatrist and a pioneer in near-death studies. She theorized there were 5 stages of grief, but her studies were with people who were dying (terminally ill), not people who were grieving over the loss of a loved one. In her 1969 book “On Death and Dying” she proposed the 5 stages of grief and loss:
1. Denial and isolation
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
I think there is some merit to her work although there’s a strong consensus among psychologists that people who are grieving over any kind of loss do not necessarily go through the stages in the same order or experience all of them.
The other model is from George Bonanno. His research is noted for contradicting Kübler-Ross’ 5 stages of grief. As a professor of clinical psychology at Columbia University, he conducted more than two decades of scientific studies on grief and trauma, which have been published in several papers of peer-reviewed journals in the field of psychology.
His studies came out of several thousand subjects and included people who have suffered losses in the U.S. and cross-cultural studies in various countries around the world. His subjects suffered losses through war, terrorism, deaths of children, premature deaths of spouses, sexual abuse, childhood diagnoses of AIDS, and other potentially devastating loss events or potential trauma events – such as losing a job, or one of the parents losing custody of a child through divorce, loss of a romantic relationship, loss of a pet, losing faith in one’s religion. Bonanno’s findings indicate that natural resilience is a part of the human psyche, and that there are four possible paths one could take in dealing with grief and loss. The four trajectories are as follows:
Resilience: "The ability of adults in otherwise normal circumstances who are exposed to an isolated and potentially highly disruptive event, such as the death of a close relation or a violent or life-threatening situation, to maintain relatively stable, healthy levels of psychological and physical functioning" as well as "the capacity for generative experiences and positive emotions".
Recovery: When "normal functioning temporarily gives way to threshold or sub-threshold psychopathology (e.g., symptoms of depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD), usually for a period of at least several months, and then gradually returns to pre-event levels".
Chronic dysfunction: Prolonged suffering and inability to function, usually lasting several years or longer.
Delayed grief or trauma: When adjustment seems normal but then distress and symptoms increase months later. Researchers have not found evidence of delayed grief, but delayed trauma appears to be a genuine phenomenon.”
we all mean well and want to help – and it’s easy to feel overwhelmed with the good vibes and advice from well-wishers…so I’m just saying go at your own pace…don’t feel like you have to report back to anyone or give a progress report…be unapologetic - you do you cuz that seems to me it has managed to work out well so far in what you've shared here.
~ ~ ~ ~
Comparing experiences, strategies, therapies is important for the obvious relatable reasons – but I think we have to allow for our own uniqueness…individuality or we might set ourselves up for disappointment.
I recall what might be considered my first “romantic kiss”. I was in the seventh grade…in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot. Classmates in the school yard can spread gossip almost as fast as announcements given over the PA. The word was out, a pretty Italian girl, Katherine thought I was cute. After being egged on by my friends we walked over to Katherine’s group…Like being in a car wreck I vaguely remember jumbled up bits and pieces …the sequence of words and physicality elude me…she was taller than me…as she leaned forward and lowered her head – her slight smile that revealed her braces changed to pursed lips…as our mouths touched I felt flushed like I was doing something forbidden in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot…I don’t recall any dreamy feelings, hearing a crescendo of music or any of the other stuff I’ve witnessed on TV or in the movies during a romantic kiss scene…one of those confusing and disappointing moments in life I guess…anyway…my point is
Maybe we learn what to expect in grief from how it’s portrayed in movies and TV shows – the predictable five-stage process seems to be an often-used trope. Plots that use 1 of the 4 trajectories are unpredictable and exciting. For “survival techniques” I like to mix it up. Seeing how someone manages in real life or in a movie is helpful – sometimes I do want a template if I don’t know what to expect – maybe some guidelines. I also like to be encouraged - reminded we have something inside that’s really tough…an indomitable spirit…maybe grieving involves some other – unexpected feelings too – like relief, the worst is over…or even some positive unexpected mood shift – the joy of victory – surviving…building self-confidence…entertainment, books, music, art are good for escaping…sometimes they can be inspirational and offer some practical tips.
~ ~ ~ ~
There’s something relatable for survivors of a pseudo-Christian cult in the conversion of the apostle Paul.
Saul (Paul) knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand. But after the Lord Jesus Christ knocked him off his high horse – Paul had to take time to recover…process…reevaluate all he knew of the Scriptures…something was missing – Christ. We read inActs 17 NIV - In Thessalonica - When Paul and his - Bible Gateway
When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said…
Paul being familiar with the Old Testament – was now looking at it with fresh eyes!
For folks who are still into God, Christ, and the Bible after surviving a pseudo-Christian cult, they owe it to themselves to give their faith a fair shake and work on removing the pseudo-Christian-cult-colored-glasses. Reexamine the Scriptures and doctrines with fresh eyes. Grease Spot Café is cool for that. Notice the wide range of beliefs and opinions of the clientele.
~ ~ ~ ~
On a personal note, I’ve mentioned before how some personal issues and the TWI-lifestyle might not be a good fit. I’ve battled with depression before I got involved with TWI. But it wasn’t until a few years after I left TWI – at my wife’s urging that I went to a psychiatrist. One of the best decisions I ever made.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we are able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
I know I've let go of a lot of stuff over the years but this is letting go of everything, even of the honeymoon stage from my first fellowship to going on the field. The hardest part is letting go of my belief that God led me to that first fellowship because I so needed deliverance and had thought I'd found it. Now I realize God would not have led me to a group where top leadership was doing the one thing that I wanted to be rescued from when I joined that group. I wonder what God's real plan was back then for me to find Him, his son and true freedom. The good news is now Jesus can show me which way to go with me knowing not to expect the trappings of a "perfect doctrine and perfect people."
Ive had similar thoughts over the years --- Thoughts that go something like "Why would the father ever lead me to a corrupt organization?" -- and for a while I was truly stumped and I dealt with a variety of emotions on the subject. Eventually, I started to realize that with TWI you start off on firm footing because its just you God/Jesus Christ and the start of a new familial relationship. The problem with TWI in this regard is they position themselves as THE authority over a person's faith. They literally and slowly usurp the authority of our Lord and put themselves subtly in Jesus Christs place declaring him absent. With that said, I have no doubt that your relationship with the Father is/was genuine. The problem comes in with this third wheel...the way international.
Now - corruption. The entire world is corrupt and we live in the midst of it all. Naturally, there are corrupt organizations and unfortunately I was deeply involved with one to the point of being top leadership. I came to GSC to expose everything I possibly could because if just creep off quietly and don't warn others then I am culpable. (I was exposed to a lot) I can say it no better than what WW said earlier so I will use that quote function.
4 hours ago, WordWolf said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out.
From where I was in my life when I got in, that was an improvement. Getting out of twi is always an improvement.
These few sentences summarize so much of my life and the way international. When I got involved with TWI I was living a very crazy lifestyle. Running the streets, violent, crazy, like a wild animal in some respects. The way international really did help round me out as an individual, I mean it's wasnt all bad at first, though it eventually ended up that way. I think we can summarize a lot with the following verse:
Isaiah 55:11
“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.”
God's purposes will be accomplished and in spite of anyone's efforts to the contrary his purposes have been established in your life, except, you are taking a new direction having divorced the usurper - TWI. The bottom line is Jesus Christ is drawing us out of this world and to the Father, the path an individual might take is unique to that individual. Does that make it any less real (or amazing) that we are being drawn out from this world? I think not - it really speaks to the sovereingty of God because not one of us will be lost.
Ephesians 1:4
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
Most of us read Ephesians 1:4 and stop with the fact that God knew us in his foreknowledge throughout all time. However, that's not really all this verse is saying. Foundation is Katabole in Koine Greek and speaks of a violent throwing down. Please read this link to understand why I say this: (I have no affiliation with the author if this site and am not familiar with his other doctrinal positions, i just simply enjoyed this article)
Ephesians 1:4 literally means he has chosen us in Christ before the violent overthrow of this present world. So we literally have been selected to dwell in the new heaven and new earth wherein dwell righteousness. This is the big picture...so if my salvation came through the Catholic Church then so be it, as it turns out it was TWI and not the RCs. It is what it is. God is literally bringing his plan of salvation to pass in this corrupt world using corruptible people and that's just what it is.
As for God leading me to TWI: Understand that I wasnt a nice guy back then and I used to hang around some really bad folks. My point? There werent a lot of options to reach me cause I wasnt someone that was approachable and I wouldn't have listened to anyone from a traditional religous background. So, the way international fit the bill, although it could have easily been any number of organizations. So for me the Lord knew how to get my attention, and really, I wouldnt have left the way international any earlier than what I did cause I was straight out fanatical. What started out as being on fire for God slowly morphed to being on fire for TWI. The boundaries were moved slowly and I never noticed and at 23, I was unprepared for cult life and totally ignorant. So naturally, being young and mostly naieve (once you got me off the streets) I was the perfect target for a seductive cult like TWI.
That mental agitation you expressed likely comes from unrealistic expectations and outright lies foisted on us by TWI, that somehow people are perfect once they "renew their minds". Thats all religous garbage that gets mixed in with the law of believing. So TWI creates a false reality with people playing their roles in fantasy land. Give yourself time and just learn to enjoy the process. You are here at this juncture because you want to be closer to the Lord...and you are drawing nearer and he is drawing nearer to you. I would say you are on the right path.
Oh----avoid offshoots like the plague. I made that mistake when I first left TWI. Most all offshoots are run by people who wish to continue the charade concerning wierwille. Not all, each must stand on it's own merits but beware. So if you get hit with not throwing out the baby with the bathwater I would recommend tossing the baby too. Instead do this:
1 Thessalonians 5:21
“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
Oh --- and for all I know the Lord led me to the way international knowing that I would help expose their corruption as a warning to others.
I know I've let go of a lot of stuff over the years but this is letting go of everything, even of the honeymoon stage from my first fellowship to going on the field. The hardest part is letting go of my belief that God led me to that first fellowship because I so needed deliverance and had thought I'd found it. Now I realize God would not have led me to a group where top leadership was doing the one thing that I wanted to be rescued from when I joined that group. I wonder what God's real plan was back then for me to find Him, his son and true freedom. The good news is now Jesus can show me which way to go with me knowing not to expect the trappings of a "perfect doctrine and perfect people."
Hey Charity
Gods real plan for me would have been better if he had more to work with lol.
Wherever I was at the time with my viewpoints, my Christianity, my need for service and purpose, He knew that. I could have chose to go on with my denomination church and not taken PFAL. But there also was an appeal of the free spirited Christians that were part of TWI then too. And an appeal for knowledge. It was a baited hook that God knew I would fall for. The pastor of my church told me personally not to take the class. I told him I wanted to take it and if they were wrong to show them where from the Bible. So I didn’t listen.
I did experience good in TWI and reading the Bible a lot doesn’t damage you lol. God preserved my heart through it all. Led me through like Psalms 23 says. Provided me a spouse and family. I’m thankful.
I am also thankful He led me out. It is freedom for self and family as opposed to a hamster wheel like existence to benefit mostly a small remote group in power somewhere.
I am still broken by life in general. The good news is that broken people need Saviors more.
Peace and Love in the name of our Lord and Savior.
Thanks OldSkool for your post. Here are a few thoughts about what you shared.
Ive had similar thoughts over the years --- Thoughts that go something like "Why would the father ever lead me to a corrupt organization?" -- and for a while I was truly stumped and I dealt with a variety of emotions on the subject. Eventually, I started to realize that with TWI you start off on firm footing because its just you God/Jesus Christ and the start of a new familial relationship.
In “Undertow,” I’m at the place where Charlene is visiting headquarters for the first time for a women’s advance.On her first day, she talks about the meals they were served and the top women leaders she got to meet and fellowship with that day.Previously, she had talked about how organized the Way was in order to bring in new recruits. This could really be seen in all the arrangements that were made for the advance.It really comes off as a 5-star organization.
The problem with TWI in this regard is they position themselves as THE authority over a person's faith. They literally and slowly usurp the authority of our Lord and put themselves subtly in Jesus Christs place declaring him absent.
The thing is wasn't this their long-range plans because vp was having trouble getting people to stay loyal to him after taking the foundational class (hence, the idea of the way tree, wow, intermediate and advanced classes, corps, etc.), A lot of us were like Charlene and got hooked very early on and then ignored any red flags or warnings from those outside the way. I know our school’s curriculum teaches about how peer pressure plays a role in kids using drugs, alcohol, etc. but I doubt the older grades are taught about the danger of cult-like thinking. I’d like to check on this.
Has anyone on GSC been able to help ex-cult members in some way in the city where they live?
As for God leading me to TWI: Understand that I wasnt a nice guy back then and I used to hang around some really bad folks. My point? There werent a lot of options to reach me cause I wasnt someone that was approachable and I wouldn't have listened to anyone from a traditional religous background.
You sound pretty similar to how Vince Finnegan talks publicly about his life before he got into twi.
The thing is wasn't this their long-range plans because vp was having trouble getting people to stay loyal to him after taking the foundational class
Its really interesting to consider WHY wierwille wanted people to be loyal to him. Im sure money was at the root of his demand for loyalty...I mean...wouldnt want those dollars escaping his grasp...
A short time ago, 2021 somewhere, I prayed and meditated several time about joining a church, possibly taking in a few sessions up at CFF, or perhaps starting my own thing....at the end of that time of meditation I realized that the book of Acts shows us Jesus was vitally involved in their lives on an individual level. So...I prayed and basically told the Lord that I didnt want anything with my name on it, or a 501-c3 chartered in my name...I told him that I would do whatever he needed but I wouldn't lead anyone to myself, but instead I would point the way to Jesus Christ. Ive been really at peace ever since. So, I really dont get the whole loyalty thing...loyalty to wierwille, loyalty to craig...who needs these bozos.
Gods real plan for me would have been better if he had more to work with lol.
Wherever I was at the time with my viewpoints, my Christianity, my need for service and purpose, He knew that. I could have chose to go on with my denomination church and not taken PFAL. But there also was an appeal of the free spirited Christians that were part of TWI then too. And an appeal for knowledge. It was a baited hook that God knew I would fall for. The pastor of my church told me personally not to take the class. I told him I wanted to take it and if they were wrong to show them where from the Bible. So I didn’t listen.
I did experience good in TWI and reading the Bible a lot doesn’t damage you lol. God preserved my heart through it all. Led me through like Psalms 23 says. Provided me a spouse and family. I’m thankful.
I am also thankful He led me out. It is freedom for self and family as opposed to a hamster wheel like existence to benefit mostly a small remote group in power somewhere.
I am still broken by life in general. The good news is that broken people need Saviors more.
Peace and Love in the name of our Lord and Savior.
Love your first line Chockfull (applies to me as well). I did get turned on to reading the Bible during those years, and I often did feel close to God. It gave me the opportunity to teach children's fellowship which inspired my later choice to get a university degree and go to teacher's college. It's just that their way of entrapping people and keeping us dependent on them was through their lie of being the only "true" church (ecclesia), so while I was enjoying some benefits, I was also thinking evil of other Christians and not as close to my family as I could have been. It just feels all wrong to me now. I'll have to have a heart-to-heart talk with big Daddy God and cool brother Jesus about it.
Prov 16:18,19 speaks of my prideful self-righteousness for being in twi.
Limbo. According to Roman Catholicism it's the place where unbaptized infants go, and some say the just who lived before Christ. I heard that it actually is a level of Hell, but with no punishment. No punishment but missing out on the Beatific Vision. It was that way for centuries until Ratzinger discontinued it in the 90s. Many traditional Catholics don't consider him a valid pope, but that's another story. Now is limbo as being a level of hell, just another way of saying "the grave", "soul sleep" until the great general judgment? I believe we will find out!
I’ve found there are two well-known models for dealing with grief and loss. One is from Elisabeth Kübler-Ross a Swiss-American psychiatrist and a pioneer in near-death studies. She theorized there were 5 stages of grief, but her studies were with people who were dying (terminally ill), not people who were grieving over the loss of a loved one. In her 1969 book “On Death and Dying” she proposed the 5 stages of grief and loss:
1. Denial and isolation
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
I think there is some merit to her work although there’s a strong consensus among psychologists that people who are grieving over any kind of loss do not necessarily go through the stages in the same order or experience all of them.
The other model is from George Bonanno. His research is noted for contradicting Kübler-Ross’ 5 stages of grief. As a professor of clinical psychology at Columbia University, he conducted more than two decades of scientific studies on grief and trauma, which have been published in several papers of peer-reviewed journals in the field of psychology.
His studies came out of several thousand subjects and included people who have suffered losses in the U.S. and cross-cultural studies in various countries around the world. His subjects suffered losses through war, terrorism, deaths of children, premature deaths of spouses, sexual abuse, childhood diagnoses of AIDS, and other potentially devastating loss events or potential trauma events – such as losing a job, or one of the parents losing custody of a child through divorce, loss of a romantic relationship, loss of a pet, losing faith in one’s religion. Bonanno’s findings indicate that natural resilience is a part of the human psyche, and that there are four possible paths one could take in dealing with grief and loss. The four trajectories are as follows:
Resilience: "The ability of adults in otherwise normal circumstances who are exposed to an isolated and potentially highly disruptive event, such as the death of a close relation or a violent or life-threatening situation, to maintain relatively stable, healthy levels of psychological and physical functioning" as well as "the capacity for generative experiences and positive emotions".
Recovery: When "normal functioning temporarily gives way to threshold or sub-threshold psychopathology (e.g., symptoms of depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD), usually for a period of at least several months, and then gradually returns to pre-event levels".
Chronic dysfunction: Prolonged suffering and inability to function, usually lasting several years or longer.
Delayed grief or trauma: When adjustment seems normal but then distress and symptoms increase months later. Researchers have not found evidence of delayed grief, but delayed trauma appears to be a genuine phenomenon.”
we all mean well and want to help – and it’s easy to feel overwhelmed with the good vibes and advice from well-wishers…so I’m just saying go at your own pace…don’t feel like you have to report back to anyone or give a progress report…be unapologetic - you do you cuz that seems to me it has managed to work out well so far in what you've shared here.
~ ~ ~ ~
Comparing experiences, strategies, therapies is important for the obvious relatable reasons – but I think we have to allow for our own uniqueness…individuality or we might set ourselves up for disappointment.
I recall what might be considered my first “romantic kiss”. I was in the seventh grade…in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot. Classmates in the school yard can spread gossip almost as fast as announcements given over the PA. The word was out, a pretty Italian girl, Katherine thought I was cute. After being egged on by my friends we walked over to Katherine’s group…Like being in a car wreck I vaguely remember jumbled up bits and pieces …the sequence of words and physicality elude me…she was taller than me…as she leaned forward and lowered her head – her slight smile that revealed her braces changed to pursed lips…as our mouths touched I felt flushed like I was doing something forbidden in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot…I don’t recall any dreamy feelings, hearing a crescendo of music or any of the other stuff I’ve witnessed on TV or in the movies during a romantic kiss scene…one of those confusing and disappointing moments in life I guess…anyway…my point is
Maybe we learn what to expect in grief from how it’s portrayed in movies and TV shows – the predictable five-stage process seems to be an often-used trope. Plots that use 1 of the 4 trajectories are unpredictable and exciting. For “survival techniques” I like to mix it up. Seeing how someone manages in real life or in a movie is helpful – sometimes I do want a template if I don’t know what to expect – maybe some guidelines. I also like to be encouraged - reminded we have something inside that’s really tough…an indomitable spirit…maybe grieving involves some other – unexpected feelings too – like relief, the worst is over…or even some positive unexpected mood shift – the joy of victory – surviving…building self-confidence…entertainment, books, music, art are good for escaping…sometimes they can be inspirational and offer some practical tips.
~ ~ ~ ~
There’s something relatable for survivors of a pseudo-Christian cult in the conversion of the apostle Paul.
Saul (Paul) knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand. But after the Lord Jesus Christ knocked him off his high horse – Paul had to take time to recover…process…reevaluate all he knew of the Scriptures…something was missing – Christ. We read inActs 17 NIV - In Thessalonica - When Paul and his - Bible Gateway
When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said…
Paul being familiar with the Old Testament – was now looking at it with fresh eyes!
For folks who are still into God, Christ, and the Bible after surviving a pseudo-Christian cult, they owe it to themselves to give their faith a fair shake and work on removing the pseudo-Christian-cult-colored-glasses. Reexamine the Scriptures and doctrines with fresh eyes. Grease Spot Café is cool for that. Notice the wide range of beliefs and opinions of the clientele.
~ ~ ~ ~
On a personal note, I’ve mentioned before how some personal issues and the TWI-lifestyle might not be a good fit. I’ve battled with depression before I got involved with TWI. But it wasn’t until a few years after I left TWI – at my wife’s urging that I went to a psychiatrist. One of the best decisions I ever made.
Love and peace
T-Bone
Thank you T-Bone for your godly love and for connecting with me. I'll post you some thoughts tomorrow as the Sandman has arrived. Sleep tight everyone.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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chockfull
It’s all fine. No worries. The scribe mode snarky comment is as much to myself as anyone on this forum. I wasted so many years of my life on meaningless bullshonta arguments over the minutiae of scripture all while missing out on meaningful relationships with other Christians and honestly distancing Christ from my relationship.
We can talk about whatever you guys want it’s fine.
I finally had a wake up call regarding my old 3x5 solution for the universe scripture studies when I ran across a verse talking about how Jesus taught like one with authority not like the scribes.
So I looked up grammeteis in the Greek and saw too much of myself there.
And changed.
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Charity
No, except your attempt at being funny was about me, hence my question asking if there was something I should know. I'm picky and often too serious about the "details" in almost everything I do (housework, writing report cards, learning about things) - it's a blessing and a curse.
I could ask for more details about your comment "just playing off your post of not being sure what was meant," but I won't for 2 reasons: I've already spent enough time today going over the details in Chockfull and my posts in order to get things right between us; and I need to be more lighthearted about things.
I appreciate all of you
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chockfull
You are not aware you are a newer poster and contributor to this site?
We can get a list of nicknames going for you so you don’t get so triggered there noob.
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T-Bone
Ok…just thought a little friendly fun might make you feel more comfortable and welcomed.
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Charity
Hi T-Bone, I was editing my last post to you when you sent your last two posts to me. I do get it now, not the noob thing, but what you said earlier and it's sweet of you to want me to feel more comfortable and welcomed.
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Charity
Thanks for your reply chockfull.
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T-Bone
oh, how romantic - two posters passing in cyberspace
ok that was another attempt to be funny - not coming on to you...just thought you needed a little more friendly support...like any charity case...
"oh my God he won't stop !!!!! where's a moderator when you need one?"
love and peace
T-Bone
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WordWolf
If you're interested, there's threads where we play games.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/forum/14-movies-music-books-art/
Read "how to play the game threads" and the first few posts of any thread, and the last page or so, to get the rules, general play, and where we're at now. You can choose to join any thread, all of them, or none of them, or join one and then just stop posting on it, as you see fit. The only catch is that play is on "the honor system" - we agree not to cheat. (Explanations are on the threads.)
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Charity
Hoping you can connect with me. I woke up at 3:30 this morning and couldn’t get back to sleep. I began to work on a jigsaw puzzle online and then it all became overwhelming to me. It’s like the opposite of seeing the light because there’s nothing joyful about it. It’s more like seeing the darkness and it hurts. I’ve just been letting the tears flow.
Between reading over for the past couple of weeks all your horrendous experiences in the Corp and within the ministry overall, as well as recalling what went on in my own life during that time and then on top of this, I began reading “Undertow” yesterday, the rose colored glasses I’ve obviously still been wearing about certain aspects of twi are coming off and it feels so, so sad. Even the doctrine I’ve been holding onto as being accurate has gone up in smoke. I think I'm heading into the last stage of grieving - acceptance.
Over the past couple of hours, I‘ve been chucking out every memory that came to me - just wanting to obliterate the whole existence of twi from my mind. There are feelings of anger and disgust about what a total waste of my life it was. My children are the only saving grace in all of it. My youngest was born while I was in the ministry and when I left 1986, they were 3, 6 and 9. The joy they gave me just by being kids, I’ll never forget.
Starting to calm down now as I edit my words so they make some sense. I’m feeling exhausted, both physically and mentally. You all seem to have survived this stage so I know there’s light at the end of the tunnel.
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OldSkool
Morning. What you are going through is normal. I went through the same process. Basically, it's the same as grieving. I'm at work, so can't provide a link atm, but look up 5 stages of grieving.. Basically you are dealing with loss. It gets better and being free from two breaks a cycle of bondage that only gets worse. Your on the right track.
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OldSkool
https://www.healthline.com/health/stages-of-grief
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Charity
I know I've let go of a lot of stuff over the years but this is letting go of everything, even of the honeymoon stage from my first fellowship to going on the field. The hardest part is letting go of my belief that God led me to that first fellowship because I so needed deliverance and had thought I'd found it. Now I realize God would not have led me to a group where top leadership was doing the one thing that I wanted to be rescued from when I joined that group. I wonder what God's real plan was back then for me to find Him, his son and true freedom. The good news is now Jesus can show me which way to go with me knowing not to expect the trappings of a "perfect doctrine and perfect people."
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OldSkool
I'll post more when I'm home. But..you are experiencing loss and deep loss at that. Remember his Word does not return void. More later...hang in there...it gets better from here....though it comes and goes in waves.
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WordWolf
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out.
From where I was in my life when I got in, that was an improvement. Getting out of twi is always an improvement.
As for after, God is not that small that He can only be reached with twi or even ex-twi. Learning not to freak out over differences in doctrine helped a lot.
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Charity
Thanks WW for sharing your truth about going in and later coming out of twi.
My honeymoon stage with the ministry before going WOW was not that long – maybe 8 months. During that time, good things did happen like: (some of which were probably common to the honeymoon period of other people)
- my first fellowship blew me away in comparison to any church experience I had known before (RC, Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic RC)
- the first time I heard about our righteous standing in Christ before God after years of sin-consciousness
- taking the class with loving wow’s there each night and speaking in tongues at the end (I wrote about this previously)
- being only 18 and having so much fun together (going dancing at a bar, playing silly games at fellowship like “Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar,” having potlucks…)
- taught for my first time at fellowship about what carrying the cross by Jesus meant for us spiritually (for someone who since being a child felt most comfortable going unnoticed by others, I actually felt radiant the whole time because it was about God and Jesus)
- dating a wow ambassador who played the guitar and sang songs to me like “Please Come to Boston” and “Sunshine on my Shoulders,” was very funny, a great teacher and most of all, treating me with respect
- going to my first Rock of Ages
I know I’ll still remember those times now and again but not with rose colored glasses on any more. That time was built upon this huge sand dune. Once I went wow, the reality of what twi was all about began to show and over the years, the wind blew all the particles of sand away and great was the fall. That’s why, for me personally, I prefer to see all those years as lost, fallen into some black hole in the galaxy.
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T-Bone
Hi Charity,
I’ve found there are two well-known models for dealing with grief and loss. One is from Elisabeth Kübler-Ross a Swiss-American psychiatrist and a pioneer in near-death studies. She theorized there were 5 stages of grief, but her studies were with people who were dying (terminally ill), not people who were grieving over the loss of a loved one. In her 1969 book “On Death and Dying” she proposed the 5 stages of grief and loss:
1. Denial and isolation
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance
I think there is some merit to her work although there’s a strong consensus among psychologists that people who are grieving over any kind of loss do not necessarily go through the stages in the same order or experience all of them.
The other model is from George Bonanno. His research is noted for contradicting Kübler-Ross’ 5 stages of grief. As a professor of clinical psychology at Columbia University, he conducted more than two decades of scientific studies on grief and trauma, which have been published in several papers of peer-reviewed journals in the field of psychology.
His studies came out of several thousand subjects and included people who have suffered losses in the U.S. and cross-cultural studies in various countries around the world. His subjects suffered losses through war, terrorism, deaths of children, premature deaths of spouses, sexual abuse, childhood diagnoses of AIDS, and other potentially devastating loss events or potential trauma events – such as losing a job, or one of the parents losing custody of a child through divorce, loss of a romantic relationship, loss of a pet, losing faith in one’s religion. Bonanno’s findings indicate that natural resilience is a part of the human psyche, and that there are four possible paths one could take in dealing with grief and loss. The four trajectories are as follows:
Resilience: "The ability of adults in otherwise normal circumstances who are exposed to an isolated and potentially highly disruptive event, such as the death of a close relation or a violent or life-threatening situation, to maintain relatively stable, healthy levels of psychological and physical functioning" as well as "the capacity for generative experiences and positive emotions".
Recovery: When "normal functioning temporarily gives way to threshold or sub-threshold psychopathology (e.g., symptoms of depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD), usually for a period of at least several months, and then gradually returns to pre-event levels".
Chronic dysfunction: Prolonged suffering and inability to function, usually lasting several years or longer.
Delayed grief or trauma: When adjustment seems normal but then distress and symptoms increase months later. Researchers have not found evidence of delayed grief, but delayed trauma appears to be a genuine phenomenon.”
for more details on the above see Wikipedia on Grief and Wikipedia on George Bonanno…some other books I found helpful:
https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinders-Gail-Sheehy/dp/0688006485
https://www.amazon.com/New-Passages-Mapping-Your-Across/dp/0345404459
https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Good-New-Mood-Therapy/dp/0380810336
~ ~ ~ ~
we all mean well and want to help – and it’s easy to feel overwhelmed with the good vibes and advice from well-wishers…so I’m just saying go at your own pace…don’t feel like you have to report back to anyone or give a progress report…be unapologetic - you do you cuz that seems to me it has managed to work out well so far in what you've shared here.
~ ~ ~ ~
Comparing experiences, strategies, therapies is important for the obvious relatable reasons – but I think we have to allow for our own uniqueness…individuality or we might set ourselves up for disappointment.
I recall what might be considered my first “romantic kiss”. I was in the seventh grade…in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot. Classmates in the school yard can spread gossip almost as fast as announcements given over the PA. The word was out, a pretty Italian girl, Katherine thought I was cute. After being egged on by my friends we walked over to Katherine’s group…Like being in a car wreck I vaguely remember jumbled up bits and pieces …the sequence of words and physicality elude me…she was taller than me…as she leaned forward and lowered her head – her slight smile that revealed her braces changed to pursed lips…as our mouths touched I felt flushed like I was doing something forbidden in the Catholic school “yard”/parking lot…I don’t recall any dreamy feelings, hearing a crescendo of music or any of the other stuff I’ve witnessed on TV or in the movies during a romantic kiss scene…one of those confusing and disappointing moments in life I guess…anyway…my point is
Maybe we learn what to expect in grief from how it’s portrayed in movies and TV shows – the predictable five-stage process seems to be an often-used trope. Plots that use 1 of the 4 trajectories are unpredictable and exciting. For “survival techniques” I like to mix it up. Seeing how someone manages in real life or in a movie is helpful – sometimes I do want a template if I don’t know what to expect – maybe some guidelines. I also like to be encouraged - reminded we have something inside that’s really tough…an indomitable spirit…maybe grieving involves some other – unexpected feelings too – like relief, the worst is over…or even some positive unexpected mood shift – the joy of victory – surviving…building self-confidence…entertainment, books, music, art are good for escaping…sometimes they can be inspirational and offer some practical tips.
~ ~ ~ ~
There’s something relatable for survivors of a pseudo-Christian cult in the conversion of the apostle Paul.
Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia
Galatians 1 NIV - Paul, an apostle—sent not from men - Bible Gateway
Saul (Paul) knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand. But after the Lord Jesus Christ knocked him off his high horse – Paul had to take time to recover…process…reevaluate all he knew of the Scriptures…something was missing – Christ. We read in Acts 17 NIV - In Thessalonica - When Paul and his - Bible Gateway
When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said…
Paul being familiar with the Old Testament – was now looking at it with fresh eyes!
For folks who are still into God, Christ, and the Bible after surviving a pseudo-Christian cult, they owe it to themselves to give their faith a fair shake and work on removing the pseudo-Christian-cult-colored-glasses. Reexamine the Scriptures and doctrines with fresh eyes. Grease Spot Café is cool for that. Notice the wide range of beliefs and opinions of the clientele.
~ ~ ~ ~
On a personal note, I’ve mentioned before how some personal issues and the TWI-lifestyle might not be a good fit. I’ve battled with depression before I got involved with TWI. But it wasn’t until a few years after I left TWI – at my wife’s urging that I went to a psychiatrist. One of the best decisions I ever made.
Love and peace
T-Bone
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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Charity
I've started to read Paul's greetings and prayers in the first few verses of his epistles. This one is from 2 Corinthians:
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the holy ones who are in the whole province of Achaia:
2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
4who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we are able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
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OldSkool
Ive had similar thoughts over the years --- Thoughts that go something like "Why would the father ever lead me to a corrupt organization?" -- and for a while I was truly stumped and I dealt with a variety of emotions on the subject. Eventually, I started to realize that with TWI you start off on firm footing because its just you God/Jesus Christ and the start of a new familial relationship. The problem with TWI in this regard is they position themselves as THE authority over a person's faith. They literally and slowly usurp the authority of our Lord and put themselves subtly in Jesus Christs place declaring him absent. With that said, I have no doubt that your relationship with the Father is/was genuine. The problem comes in with this third wheel...the way international.
Now - corruption. The entire world is corrupt and we live in the midst of it all. Naturally, there are corrupt organizations and unfortunately I was deeply involved with one to the point of being top leadership. I came to GSC to expose everything I possibly could because if just creep off quietly and don't warn others then I am culpable. (I was exposed to a lot) I can say it no better than what WW said earlier so I will use that quote function.
These few sentences summarize so much of my life and the way international. When I got involved with TWI I was living a very crazy lifestyle. Running the streets, violent, crazy, like a wild animal in some respects. The way international really did help round me out as an individual, I mean it's wasnt all bad at first, though it eventually ended up that way. I think we can summarize a lot with the following verse:
Isaiah 55:11
“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.”
God's purposes will be accomplished and in spite of anyone's efforts to the contrary his purposes have been established in your life, except, you are taking a new direction having divorced the usurper - TWI. The bottom line is Jesus Christ is drawing us out of this world and to the Father, the path an individual might take is unique to that individual. Does that make it any less real (or amazing) that we are being drawn out from this world? I think not - it really speaks to the sovereingty of God because not one of us will be lost.
Ephesians 1:4
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
Most of us read Ephesians 1:4 and stop with the fact that God knew us in his foreknowledge throughout all time. However, that's not really all this verse is saying. Foundation is Katabole in Koine Greek and speaks of a violent throwing down. Please read this link to understand why I say this: (I have no affiliation with the author if this site and am not familiar with his other doctrinal positions, i just simply enjoyed this article)
https://www.franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=213
Ephesians 1:4 literally means he has chosen us in Christ before the violent overthrow of this present world. So we literally have been selected to dwell in the new heaven and new earth wherein dwell righteousness. This is the big picture...so if my salvation came through the Catholic Church then so be it, as it turns out it was TWI and not the RCs. It is what it is. God is literally bringing his plan of salvation to pass in this corrupt world using corruptible people and that's just what it is.
As for God leading me to TWI: Understand that I wasnt a nice guy back then and I used to hang around some really bad folks. My point? There werent a lot of options to reach me cause I wasnt someone that was approachable and I wouldn't have listened to anyone from a traditional religous background. So, the way international fit the bill, although it could have easily been any number of organizations. So for me the Lord knew how to get my attention, and really, I wouldnt have left the way international any earlier than what I did cause I was straight out fanatical. What started out as being on fire for God slowly morphed to being on fire for TWI. The boundaries were moved slowly and I never noticed and at 23, I was unprepared for cult life and totally ignorant. So naturally, being young and mostly naieve (once you got me off the streets) I was the perfect target for a seductive cult like TWI.
That mental agitation you expressed likely comes from unrealistic expectations and outright lies foisted on us by TWI, that somehow people are perfect once they "renew their minds". Thats all religous garbage that gets mixed in with the law of believing. So TWI creates a false reality with people playing their roles in fantasy land. Give yourself time and just learn to enjoy the process. You are here at this juncture because you want to be closer to the Lord...and you are drawing nearer and he is drawing nearer to you. I would say you are on the right path.
Oh----avoid offshoots like the plague. I made that mistake when I first left TWI. Most all offshoots are run by people who wish to continue the charade concerning wierwille. Not all, each must stand on it's own merits but beware. So if you get hit with not throwing out the baby with the bathwater I would recommend tossing the baby too. Instead do this:
1 Thessalonians 5:21
“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”
Oh --- and for all I know the Lord led me to the way international knowing that I would help expose their corruption as a warning to others.
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chockfull
Hey Charity
Gods real plan for me would have been better if he had more to work with lol.
Wherever I was at the time with my viewpoints, my Christianity, my need for service and purpose, He knew that. I could have chose to go on with my denomination church and not taken PFAL. But there also was an appeal of the free spirited Christians that were part of TWI then too. And an appeal for knowledge. It was a baited hook that God knew I would fall for. The pastor of my church told me personally not to take the class. I told him I wanted to take it and if they were wrong to show them where from the Bible. So I didn’t listen.
I did experience good in TWI and reading the Bible a lot doesn’t damage you lol. God preserved my heart through it all. Led me through like Psalms 23 says. Provided me a spouse and family. I’m thankful.
I am also thankful He led me out. It is freedom for self and family as opposed to a hamster wheel like existence to benefit mostly a small remote group in power somewhere.
I am still broken by life in general. The good news is that broken people need Saviors more.
Peace and Love in the name of our Lord and Savior.
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Charity
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OldSkool
Its really interesting to consider WHY wierwille wanted people to be loyal to him. Im sure money was at the root of his demand for loyalty...I mean...wouldnt want those dollars escaping his grasp...
A short time ago, 2021 somewhere, I prayed and meditated several time about joining a church, possibly taking in a few sessions up at CFF, or perhaps starting my own thing....at the end of that time of meditation I realized that the book of Acts shows us Jesus was vitally involved in their lives on an individual level. So...I prayed and basically told the Lord that I didnt want anything with my name on it, or a 501-c3 chartered in my name...I told him that I would do whatever he needed but I wouldn't lead anyone to myself, but instead I would point the way to Jesus Christ. Ive been really at peace ever since. So, I really dont get the whole loyalty thing...loyalty to wierwille, loyalty to craig...who needs these bozos.
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Charity
Love your first line Chockfull (applies to me as well). I did get turned on to reading the Bible during those years, and I often did feel close to God. It gave me the opportunity to teach children's fellowship which inspired my later choice to get a university degree and go to teacher's college. It's just that their way of entrapping people and keeping us dependent on them was through their lie of being the only "true" church (ecclesia), so while I was enjoying some benefits, I was also thinking evil of other Christians and not as close to my family as I could have been. It just feels all wrong to me now. I'll have to have a heart-to-heart talk with big Daddy God and cool brother Jesus about it.
Prov 16:18,19 speaks of my prideful self-righteousness for being in twi.
18Pride goes before disaster, and a puffed up spirit before stumbling.
19Better to be humble in spirit with the poor than to share the plunder with the proud.
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oldiesman
Limbo. According to Roman Catholicism it's the place where unbaptized infants go, and some say the just who lived before Christ. I heard that it actually is a level of Hell, but with no punishment. No punishment but missing out on the Beatific Vision. It was that way for centuries until Ratzinger discontinued it in the 90s. Many traditional Catholics don't consider him a valid pope, but that's another story. Now is limbo as being a level of hell, just another way of saying "the grave", "soul sleep" until the great general judgment? I believe we will find out!
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Charity
Thank you T-Bone for your godly love and for connecting with me. I'll post you some thoughts tomorrow as the Sandman has arrived. Sleep tight everyone.
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