you might be interested in reading something. The guy who pushed that "any 2 Christians can make a marriage work- it's called 'commitment'" naturally had his marriage end in divorce, mostly because he and his wife had nothing in common and the marriage was mostly a sham, especially by the end.
That was lcm, and he wrote a book once called "vp and me." It contained a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff. We discussed that book in a thread called "vp and me in wonderland." In the thread, he mentions how his marriage began, and how his relationship began. It was INCREDIBLY shallow and unemotional. It's almost shocking it lasted at all. Then again, his mrs had previously declared she was going to marry up in twi, and vpw went to her to approach her for lcm, and undoubtedly told her he was vpw's successor. Well, she was onboard after that, and lcm apparently had no idea how little he PERSONALLY mattered in his own relationship and marriage.
That thread was a sequel. Before that, we discussed twi's advertisement, the book called "The Way-Living in Love." That thread was called "the way-living in wonderland."
Just thought you'd appreciate this one, it's for free. I remember hearing a criticism of Christians eager to pray over someone with laying on of hands. SUPPOSEDLY, the reason was this verse:
I TImothy 5:22 (KJV)
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
Nobody ever asked me about that verse, but I was already aware that "keep thyself pure" was the main point of that verse, and the "hands" business was ABOUT being a partaker of other men's sins.
It was a common belief in the Greco-Roman empire days that to lay hands on a criminal right after they committed a crime meant you were taking part in that crime. I came across that in Edith Hamilton's "Mythology", when reading about Hercules and Theseus. (Hercules was in shock over his guilt about something, and Theseus snapped him out of it by deliberately grabbing hold of him, allegedly taking part in the same crime. The writer explained the significance of the whole thing in passing. Edith Hamilton's a recognized expert in history and mythology, which is why her book is a textbook in high schools all over the US.)
So, you might want to read up on that yourself, on the odd chance someone wants to criticize you over the manner in which your group tries to help people.
Thanks for that WordWolf. I took that verse as something else too than actual gifts of the spirit.
Hey oldies pretty cool about the progressive Catholic group. Glad you found some Christian community. It’s in a lot of places we never looked much before.
The guy who pushed that "any 2 Christians can make a marriage work- it's called 'commitment'" naturally had his marriage end in divorce, mostly because he and his wife had nothing in common and the marriage was mostly a sham, especially by the end.
I bet that was a line for line quote with LCM too. It's interesting though, when I was in rez the version of this can of malarkey they pushed was "any two believers can make a marriage work because they can renew their minds." I guess the bullshonta morphs to suit the times...
What you describe with their marriage and how its value was centric to being VP's successor....they still encourage this same type of stuff. They call it spiritual goals, thats how they put it to the way corps. You want to marry someone with the same spiritual goals as yourself. So if you really want to be a region coordinator someday then marry someone with the same aspirations. I had that pushed on me since day one with my time in TWI.
Im thinking bottom line is TWI has no business talking about marriages with anyone.
What you describe with their marriage and how its value was centric to being VP's successor....they still encourage this same type of stuff. They call it spiritual goals, thats how they put it to the way corps. You want to marry someone with the same spiritual goals as yourself. So if you really want to be a region coordinator someday then marry someone with the same aspirations. I had that pushed on me since day one with my time in TWI.
The Ways shenanigans and anti Christ operation has broken up more Christian marriages than I have actually seen any other place.
The only “more harmony in the home” you see in Der Vey is the woman walking 10 steps behind the man in obedience and subjugation.
Ladies here’s your chance! You can live the Word of der vey at home. Or take a similar risk and go out on an ambassador program to Saudi Arabia. Really move the word there lol.
I mean there are real examples of affairs causing suicides.
Yes in residence these idiots were much more onerous. When I think about what they were doing behind the scenes at the time they were controlling us with respect to marriage and dating it makes me sick to my stomach.
Yes if the Way never spoke again publicly on Christian family marriage and sex it would still be too soon. Their witness in that area stinks to high heaven.
My wife and I differ on our SIT experiences - and we don’t make it or a lot of other topics a dealbreaker. I have a Roman Catholic background and she was raised southern Baptist. Prayer and how we each think of God and relate to God is deeply personal…unique…indescribable. I’m perfectly happy that our top priority is no longer TWI’s agenda but our family!
Yeah because I’m commenting on der vey and marriage I wanted to point out this example. It is a good example of what I believe the Bible does teach about marriage. Harmony with different opinions through mercy and grace. Not lock step obedience through rigid unyielding mental patterns and absolute trust and obedience. I mean dogs aren’t even like that.
Along with feeling a connection with you all because of what you’ve shared, I also want and need (sorry, not a flashback to the 5 things you need to know…) a light to shine into the crevices of my mind where some of the ministry’s dark influences and doctrines most likely still remain.Even though I know this is not a religious site, based on what I’ve learned so far, I think GSC is a good place for this to happen (with the help and guidance from big daddy God and cool brother and lord Jesus Christ).
Honestly, GSC has been an outlet and a place of refuge for me over the years. It's the only place I can go where people can relate and I can relate to their common experiences with TWI. Ive also used this site to expose what I was exposed to, and that was the cover-up and whitewash of all things wierwille. But more importantly has been my own cult recovery. GSC has given an outlet where I can see what others have gone through and how they navigated their murky waters, so to speak. Also, use the search function on the site and you will find a LOT of topics have been discussed and those discussions can really give some cool insight. I think if I had one piece of advice from an ex-wayfer that sits pretty high in importance is stay off your own back. In TWI I learned to condemn myself on an entirely new level....never fast enough, never good enough, just never enough. Just breath and breath easy. Enjoy life and enjoy the process of sorting all of this out, it's really a rewarding process of discovery.
I first heard VPW quote this line in the CF&S class in the early 1970s. I heard it again, while being counseled, as I made preparations to divorce my first wife.
I first VPW quote this line in the CF&S class in the early 1970s. I heard it again, while being counseled, as I made preparations to divorce my first wife.
Boy oh boy they are uttely destitute when it comes to marriage counselling. The clergy who officiated my first marriage set a booby trap during counselling that likely proved to be the end of that marriage. During counselling, and there were numerous sessions, we were asked to tell the other what would be grounds for divorce in the marriage. I came from a long line of alcoholics so of couse being under pressure she said alcoholism. Well....Im a recovering alcoholic at this point and when I went off the deep end with my drinking some years back it was a real easy progression to divorce from there. Who in their right mind would ask an engaged couple to tell the other what would be grounds for divorce?
I dont blame TWI or clergy for my marriage ending...it's largely my fault and I have made amends the best I am able. What I am saying if the concept hadn't been introduced at all we would have had a better chance of staying married through it all.
Boy oh boy they are uttely destitute when it comes to marriage counselling. The clergy who officiated my first marriage set a booby trap during counselling that likely proved to be the end of that marriage. During counselling, and there were numerous sessions, we were asked to tell the other what would be grounds for divorce in the marriage. I came from a long line of alcoholics so of couse being under pressure she said alcoholism. Well....Im a recovering alcoholic at this point and when I went off the deep end with my drinking some years back it was a real easy progression to divorce from there. Who in their right mind would ask an engaged couple to tell the other what would be grounds for divorce?
I dont blame TWI or clergy for my marriage ending...it's largely my fault and I have made amends the best I am able. What I am saying if the concept hadn't been introduced at all we would have had a better chance of staying married through it all.
Sorry for that bro.
Ive got a cousin in law that got remarried a number of years back. She was a stewardess and hooked up with a test pilot on a layover. She has two kids from a previous marriage. So he shows up at her hometown condo with flowers and rings the door. The boys tell her. He keeps doing it every day for a week. A year later they get married. But since it’s her 3rd and his 2nd and they both do drink they said they better go to counseling first lol. They have been married for 5 years the kids are off in college and they are traveling the world posting photos. They look pretty happy. We gotta visit them.
Always potential for a new beginning in this life.
I’m interested in how other Grease Spotters deal with “the accuracy of the Word,” not for the purpose of being right and therefore everyone else is wrong, but just for your own understanding?
The reason I’m asking has to do with why I came on this forum in the first place - because Jesus had pretty much been absent in my walk with God.So this morning, I began to talk with Jesus and immediately my mind jumped to, “well what about God?”So in trying to answer this question, I imagined turning my head back and forth and talking with Jesus on one side and God on the other (like you do when you’re watching a game of tennis). I also thought of maybe when I’m talking to Jesus, his “picture” pops in my mind and when I then want to talk to God, Jesus’ picture disappears and one of God pops up (kind of like Whac-a-Mole).I'm being serious here. It was all so confusing and mentally exhausting but “I wanted to get it right” (for my personal understanding). That’s when the idea came to me, either from God, Jesus or neural circuits working in my brain (who knows) of both of them sitting together on a couch with me sitting across from them.I felt peaceful with this solution so I'll stick with it for now.
Right away, however, I’m wondering what “according to scripture” can I accurately ask for or say to each one.This need is from being in TWI for so many years – THE ACCURACY OF THE WORD.I must strive to find “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.”So after deciding to read Rom 1:1-10 to see how Paul might have handled this “problem,” I found he wrote that 1) we serve both God and Jesus and 2) grace and peace come from both God and Jesus or from God through Jesus 3) God’s good news concerns his son, Jesus 4) we belong to Jesus Christ [and using “previous knowledge”, as sons of God, we also belong to Him] and 5) Paul wants to do the will of God which is all Jesus ever wanted to do (e.x., he prayed in the garden, “Father, not my will, but yours be done.” All this brought to my remembrance how Jesus said he and his Father are one (John 10:30) They want the same thing for us. Everything we have is from God through Jesus.They’re on the same team (or couch).Again peace came.Chockfull, it seems your earlier prayer for my peace is being answered one step at a time.
I’m interested in how other Grease Spotters deal with “the accuracy of the Word,” not for the purpose of being right and therefore everyone else is wrong, but just for your own understanding?
Well...first let's start with the source of the phrase....is that source trustworthy? No.
Then....break it down...accuracy - word. In this case, who defines accuracy? who defines word?
If you came with the way international I would say you got a 100% on your GSC rhetorical pop quiz.
Seriously, think about it. Is the way international qualified to say authoratatively what the accuracy of the word really is? Or does the way international tell you what is accurate according to their word?
As for Christiaity, God, Jesus, etc...Ive found that simple faith..aka trust in God...simple trust just the size of a grain of mustard seed is more important than most other issues. What could be more important than faith? Love! Love is the most important of all - concentrate on God's love. Just take the pressure off your own back and leave yourself alone. I literally had to learn how to do the same things I am saying to you. Jesus yoke is easy and his burden light. TWI binds us with heavy burdens, onerous to carry. They are modern day pharisees.
As for scripture, I had to learn what it really is. It's a vast literary work where the authors span about a 1500 year time period. It's existed in various forms over the years, and is cumulative in nature. It didnt become an actual book until around 1455 with the Gutenburg bible. The Bible isn't what TWI says it is. With that said, take time to look at scriptures such as:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
The truth is God never sets rigid standards for how our relationships are supposed to work. That's the nature of relatinship. It's personal. But if TWI says we aren't supposed to have fellowship with Jesus Christ and scripture clearly does then I think the choice and path is clear.
That thread was a sequel. Before that, we discussed twi's advertisement, the book called "The Way-Living in Love." That thread was called "the way-living in wonderland."
Those threads will take time to read, if you're interested. In the case of lcm, I thought you'd find it fascinating reading.
I know commitment is vital in order to work out problems that pop up in all marriages. When deciding on who to marry, don't people "normally" get to know each other more than whether someone "stands on Word" or not. In the corps, when the leaders kept everyone so busy, how did anyone have time to get to know someone just as a person, not just from the "role" he or she had. It's very likely that I accepted "any 2 Christians can make a marriage work" because it sounded easy or because if VP said it, it must be true or because I struggled, even before going into the ministry with how to actually get to know the person I was dating in a healthy way. All three were genuine reasons for me at the time.
Thank you so much for the threads. My experience in searching for topics on this site has been unsuccessful. The only way I know how is to scroll through all 187 pages to find something that's connected to my topic of interest. My other choice is just to ask if any of you know a thread that could help which I'll probably be doing over time.
I first heard VPW quote this line in the CF&S class in the early 1970s. I heard it again, while being counseled, as I made preparations to divorce my first wife.
I'm sorry. I don't know whether you are trying to be funny but what you said did just cause a laugh to come up and out of me.
Waysider, I was referring to possibly you using ironic humor in your post. I do apologize if this offended you.
Can anyone tell me how to get rid of a quote you don't want before submitting your reply (like the one below)?
you go into edit mode - top right and click on 3 dots - you'll have options to
report a post
share a post - shows link to copy
edit post - I think you have something like 10 hours or so from when you first posted it - after that you can't edit it.
in edit mode click on the quote you want to delete - or click on near the corner of it - when you see a little box with arrows - you should be able to click on that box to delete.
you can play around with Grease Spot tools on the testing forum - here's one of mine here - I believe you have to be signed in to use that forum - great for getting use to doing things on Grease Spot
Nah, you didn't offend me. What I said is true, but ,I confess, sometimes my attempts at humor are a bit on the dry side for everybody's taste. I think a lot of marriages back then were borderline arranged marriages. You weren't supposed to marry someone, or even date them, unless they were a standing believer and on a comparable level as your own. (Corps marry Corps, advanced class grads marry advanced class grad, etc.)I remember being told in pre-marital counseling that the main reason for two believers to get married is to move the word as a team and put classes together. I'm not saying for a minute that I bought that. I'm only stating that to demonstrate how twisted our thinking had become.
Now as far as removing a quote before you post: You could always delete the text and leave the bubble empty. There's also an option at the bottom of the bubble, in a black window, to "clear editor" or something like that. If that fails, you can always ask a moderator to assist you. Remember though, mods aren't full-time and work out of the kindness of their hearts, so be patient with that.
I’m interested in how other Grease Spotters deal with “the accuracy of the Word,” not for the purpose of being right and therefore everyone else is wrong, but just for your own understanding?
The reason I’m asking has to do with why I came on this forum in the first place - because Jesus had pretty much been absent in my walk with God.So this morning, I began to talk with Jesus and immediately my mind jumped to, “well what about God?”So in trying to answer this question, I imagined turning my head back and forth and talking with Jesus on one side and God on the other (like you do when you’re watching a game of tennis). I also thought of maybe when I’m talking to Jesus, his “picture” pops in my mind and when I then want to talk to God, Jesus’ picture disappears and one of God pops up (kind of like Whac-a-Mole).I'm being serious here. It was all so confusing and mentally exhausting but “I wanted to get it right” (for my personal understanding). That’s when the idea came to me, either from God, Jesus or neural circuits working in my brain (who knows) of both of them sitting together on a couch with me sitting across from them.I felt peaceful with this solution so I'll stick with it for now.
Right away, however, I’m wondering what “according to scripture” can I accurately ask for or say to each one.This need is from being in TWI for so many years – THE ACCURACY OF THE WORD.I must strive to find “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.”So after deciding to read Rom 1:1-10 to see how Paul might have handled this “problem,” I found he wrote that 1) we serve both God and Jesus and 2) grace and peace come from both God and Jesus or from God through Jesus 3) God’s good news concerns his son, Jesus 4) we belong to Jesus Christ [and using “previous knowledge”, as sons of God, we also belong to Him] and 5) Paul wants to do the will of God which is all Jesus ever wanted to do (e.x., he prayed in the garden, “Father, not my will, but yours be done.” All this brought to my remembrance how Jesus said he and his Father are one (John 10:30) They want the same thing for us. Everything we have is from God through Jesus.They’re on the same team (or couch).Again peace came.Chockfull, it seems your earlier prayer for my peace is being answered one step at a time.
I hope to hear your thoughts.
Awesome I like peace.
It sounds like you are working out a relationship and philosophy from scripture and guidance.
Well...first let's start with the source of the phrase....is that source trustworthy? No.
Then....break it down...accuracy - word. In this case, who defines accuracy? who defines word?
If you came with the way international I would say you got a 100% on your GSC rhetorical pop quiz.
Seriously, think about it. Is the way international qualified to say authoratatively what the accuracy of the word really is? Or does the way international tell you what is accurate according to their word?
As for Christiaity, God, Jesus, etc...Ive found that simple faith..aka trust in God...simple trust just the size of a grain of mustard seed is more important than most other issues. What could be more important than faith? Love! Love is the most important of all - concentrate on God's love. Just take the pressure off your own back and leave yourself alone. I literally had to learn how to do the same things I am saying to you. Jesus yoke is easy and his burden light. TWI binds us with heavy burdens, onerous to carry. They are modern day pharisees.
As for scripture, I had to learn what it really is. It's a vast literary work where the authors span about a 1500 year time period. It's existed in various forms over the years, and is cumulative in nature. It didnt become an actual book until around 1455 with the Gutenburg bible. The Bible isn't what TWI says it is. With that said, take time to look at scriptures such as:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
The truth is God never sets rigid standards for how our relationships are supposed to work. That's the nature of relatinship. It's personal. But if TWI says we aren't supposed to have fellowship with Jesus Christ and scripture clearly does then I think the choice and path is clear.
I’m a retired primary grade teacher, so your use of a quiz is perfect, and the specific pop quiz you gave, I find to be very helpful.
After I read your reply, the verse “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” came to mind.I mean, that’s perfectly clear, right?Since God is the source (imho), I don’t have a problem with this.However, when VP quoted it, you knew he was stressing not the knowledge of God, but the ACCURACY of this knowledge.
So going back to your pop quiz, my answer to #1 is no. When the source is VP/TWI, I learned long ago from their handling of the Word on tithing that they were not trustworthy on that subject.Therefore, I have to remember that anything else he/TWI said cannot be blindly and naively taken as truth.
My answer to #2 is TWI with VP sitting at the top.By adding “accurate” to describe “knowledge,” he is basically directing us back to everything he/TWI teaches (AKA his opinions and definitions) because he was the one God chose to teach the accuracy of God's Word as it hadn't been known since the first century. It's funny how question #2 always brings us back to question #!.
So I did get 100% on the quiz, so now I’ll go and put a “Good Work” sticker on my forehead. Seriously though, thanks for your help.
you go into edit mode - top right and click on 3 dots - you'll have options to
report a post
share a post - shows link to copy
edit post - I think you have something like 10 hours or so from when you first posted it - after that you can't edit it.
in edit mode click on the quote you want to delete - or click on near the corner of it - when you see a little box with arrows - you should be able to click on that box to delete.
you can play around with Grease Spot tools on the testing forum - here's one of mine here - I believe you have to be signed in to use that forum - great for getting use to doing things on Grease Spot
I’m a retired primary grade teacher, so your use of a quiz is perfect, and the specific pop quiz you gave, I find to be very helpful.
After I read your reply, the verse “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” came to mind.I mean, that’s perfectly clear, right?Since God is the source (imho), I don’t have a problem with this.However, when VP quoted it, you knew he was stressing not the knowledge of God, but the ACCURACY of this knowledge.
So going back to your pop quiz, my answer to #1 is no. When the source is VP/TWI, I learned long ago from their handling of the Word on tithing that they were not trustworthy on that subject.Therefore, I have to remember that anything else he/TWI said cannot be blindly and naively taken as truth.
My answer to #2 is TWI with VP sitting at the top.By adding “accurate” to describe “knowledge,” he is basically directing us back to everything he/TWI teaches (AKA his opinions and definitions) because he was the one God chose to teach the accuracy of God's Word as it hadn't been known since the first century. It's funny how question #2 always brings us back to question #!.
So I did get 100% on the quiz, so now I’ll go and put a “Good Work” sticker on my forehead. Seriously though, thanks for your help.
Very happy to be of service, thanks for the kind words of encouragement!
Interesting you mentioned that not known since the first century line wierwille used. You have very likely tossed that line in the trash bin..so not really trying to lecture you at all...so my rhetorical question isn't aimed at you.
If the information wierwille presented hadn't been known since the first century then why in the world is the information he presented traceable to extant sources?
For those who think I was kidding, I was not. Another poster here had known Donna when she was pretty new at twi, and Donna had told her outright that, when she married, it was specifically going to be to a bigwig in twi. So, that was her mindset before lcm came along.
"LCM finally decided he needed to get married. He goes to Dr and lets him know his thoughts and seeking advice. Dr promised he'd look out for a good woman for him.
Later, LCM decided to marry Donna and immediately told Dr. Dr said 'She's a good woman' and then rode off quickly on his motorbike. LCM found out later that he had gone at once to call Donna and talk to her to let her know and understand fully what she was getting into with LCM. He was going to be a great leader in the ministry and she had to be prepared to handle herself accordingly, etc."
So, lcm decided on Donna, whom he didn't know well at the time. This is so freaking ODD. Instead of
"We've been together, we are a good fit with each other, we share goals and values, maybe we should consider marriage," it was
"I should get married to some woman. You, let's get married. Oh, but let's get to know each other, first."
So, vpw went off immediately, and told Donna that lcm was thinking about marrying her, and how lcm was going to be a big shot in twi and replace vpw himself. We know what she'd said before- naturally this was all she'd needed to agree to marry lcm.
All accounts of that marriage looked pretty distant and cold, and now that makes a lot of sense. It was based on lcm being twi's grand poohbah, and when he no longer was, the marriage was effectively over, long before any divorce papers were served.
"Donna was in residence at the time but Dr gave her permission to visit Emporia frequently so that they could get started early on getting to know each other."
So, a couple who had agreed to get married had to start spending time 'GETTING TO KNOW EACH OTHER.' If this was fiction, this would be considered badly-written fiction. As real life, it still doesn't make much sense.
But, apparently, in lcm's head was a phrase he later said, often, and it was recorded on tape. "Any 2 believers can make a marriage work- it's called 'commitment.' " For those of you wondering what happened to that marriage, apparently, there was no more commitment into it by at least one of them. (Besides, as she didn't seem especially fond of men, she seemed to be, in effect, married to lcm's successor. She was more concerned with who was big in twi than anything else.)
I’m interested in how other Grease Spotters deal with “the accuracy of the Word,” not for the purpose of being right and therefore everyone else is wrong, but just for your own understanding?
The reason I’m asking has to do with why I came on this forum in the first place - because Jesus had pretty much been absent in my walk with God.So this morning, I began to talk with Jesus and immediately my mind jumped to, “well what about God?”So in trying to answer this question, I imagined turning my head back and forth and talking with Jesus on one side and God on the other (like you do when you’re watching a game of tennis). I also thought of maybe when I’m talking to Jesus, his “picture” pops in my mind and when I then want to talk to God, Jesus’ picture disappears and one of God pops up (kind of like Whac-a-Mole).I'm being serious here. It was all so confusing and mentally exhausting but “I wanted to get it right” (for my personal understanding). That’s when the idea came to me, either from God, Jesus or neural circuits working in my brain (who knows) of both of them sitting together on a couch with me sitting across from them.I felt peaceful with this solution so I'll stick with it for now.
Right away, however, I’m wondering what “according to scripture” can I accurately ask for or say to each one.This need is from being in TWI for so many years – THE ACCURACY OF THE WORD.I must strive to find “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.”So after deciding to read Rom 1:1-10 to see how Paul might have handled this “problem,” I found he wrote that 1) we serve both God and Jesus and 2) grace and peace come from both God and Jesus or from God through Jesus 3) God’s good news concerns his son, Jesus 4) we belong to Jesus Christ [and using “previous knowledge”, as sons of God, we also belong to Him] and 5) Paul wants to do the will of God which is all Jesus ever wanted to do (e.x., he prayed in the garden, “Father, not my will, but yours be done.” All this brought to my remembrance how Jesus said he and his Father are one (John 10:30) They want the same thing for us. Everything we have is from God through Jesus.They’re on the same team (or couch).Again peace came.Chockfull, it seems your earlier prayer for my peace is being answered one step at a time.
I hope to hear your thoughts.
How I picture this is not that different from how you picture this. Under a feudal system, a local landowner would be lord over his property and the people therein. He would swear fealty to a more powerful lord, who ruled larger sections, and so on up to the king or queen or emperor.
So, I swore fealty to Jesus and am his liegeman, he is my liege-lord. He swore fealty to God Almighty. So, they command my loyalty. (No, no church-group on earth gets in between us, that's direct from me to Jesus. I may work with a group, but my fealty is not to them. And if they try to convince me otherwise, it's time to leave the group.)
Communication may come to me from God, from Jesus, or some angel/intermediary. It's all the same, as far as I'm concerned. God and Jesus are one in purpose, and work together, having worked together for at least 2,000 years. If they are one in other ways, that only reinforces what needs no reinforcement to me. There would be issues if they ever disagreed on anything, but I don't see that happening. If they ever did, I expect they've settled any disagreements hundreds of years ago if not thousands.
=======================
Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
=======================
That "LORD" at the beginning of the verse is "YHWH", the name of God Almighty, Yahweh, and is not to be given to anyone else. David wrote that YHWH said to David's lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."
Did that refer to YHWH and Jesus?
========================
Acts 2: 34-36
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
===================
So, YHWH said that to Jesus.
===================
I Corinthians 15: 23-28
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
======================
I prefer the NASB version of the same verses, they're a little clearer, IMHO.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is clear that [j]this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to Him.28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
======================================
The interlinear renders "God, even the Father" as "He who is God and Father", which is clear enough. In what is to come, all will be made subject to Jesus......
...except God Almighty, Who subjected everything to Jesus- He won't be subject to Jesus. Once everything is subject to Jesus, then Jesus is subjected (as if he isn't now) to God Almighty, subjecting everything to God through Jesus, "that God may be all in all."
Will that be because that's the order, or because of the Trinity? It will work out exactly the same, either way.
Very happy to be of service, thanks for the kind words of encouragement!
Interesting you mentioned that not known since the first century line wierwille used. You have very likely tossed that line in the trash bin..so not really trying to lecture you at all...so my rhetorical question isn't aimed at you.
If the information wierwille presented hadn't been known since the first century then why in the world is the information he presented traceable to extant sources?
B) The alleged promise was a lie.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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WordWolf
Charity,
you might be interested in reading something. The guy who pushed that "any 2 Christians can make a marriage work- it's called 'commitment'" naturally had his marriage end in divorce, mostly because he and his wife had nothing in common and the marriage was mostly a sham, especially by the end.
That was lcm, and he wrote a book once called "vp and me." It contained a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff. We discussed that book in a thread called "vp and me in wonderland." In the thread, he mentions how his marriage began, and how his relationship began. It was INCREDIBLY shallow and unemotional. It's almost shocking it lasted at all. Then again, his mrs had previously declared she was going to marry up in twi, and vpw went to her to approach her for lcm, and undoubtedly told her he was vpw's successor. Well, she was onboard after that, and lcm apparently had no idea how little he PERSONALLY mattered in his own relationship and marriage.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8019-vp-and-me-in-wonderland/
That thread was a sequel. Before that, we discussed twi's advertisement, the book called "The Way-Living in Love." That thread was called "the way-living in wonderland."
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/7363-the-wayliving-in-wonderland/
Those threads will take time to read, if you're interested. In the case of lcm, I thought you'd find it fascinating reading.
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oldiesman
Thanks for that WordWolf. I took that verse as something else too than actual gifts of the spirit.
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oldiesman
Yes it is, thx.
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OldSkool
I bet that was a line for line quote with LCM too. It's interesting though, when I was in rez the version of this can of malarkey they pushed was "any two believers can make a marriage work because they can renew their minds." I guess the bullshonta morphs to suit the times...
What you describe with their marriage and how its value was centric to being VP's successor....they still encourage this same type of stuff. They call it spiritual goals, thats how they put it to the way corps. You want to marry someone with the same spiritual goals as yourself. So if you really want to be a region coordinator someday then marry someone with the same aspirations. I had that pushed on me since day one with my time in TWI.
Im thinking bottom line is TWI has no business talking about marriages with anyone.
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chockfull
The Ways shenanigans and anti Christ operation has broken up more Christian marriages than I have actually seen any other place.
The only “more harmony in the home” you see in Der Vey is the woman walking 10 steps behind the man in obedience and subjugation.
Ladies here’s your chance! You can live the Word of der vey at home. Or take a similar risk and go out on an ambassador program to Saudi Arabia. Really move the word there lol.
I mean there are real examples of affairs causing suicides.
Yes in residence these idiots were much more onerous. When I think about what they were doing behind the scenes at the time they were controlling us with respect to marriage and dating it makes me sick to my stomach.
Yes if the Way never spoke again publicly on Christian family marriage and sex it would still be too soon. Their witness in that area stinks to high heaven.
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chockfull
Yeah because I’m commenting on der vey and marriage I wanted to point out this example. It is a good example of what I believe the Bible does teach about marriage. Harmony with different opinions through mercy and grace. Not lock step obedience through rigid unyielding mental patterns and absolute trust and obedience. I mean dogs aren’t even like that.
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OldSkool
Honestly, GSC has been an outlet and a place of refuge for me over the years. It's the only place I can go where people can relate and I can relate to their common experiences with TWI. Ive also used this site to expose what I was exposed to, and that was the cover-up and whitewash of all things wierwille. But more importantly has been my own cult recovery. GSC has given an outlet where I can see what others have gone through and how they navigated their murky waters, so to speak. Also, use the search function on the site and you will find a LOT of topics have been discussed and those discussions can really give some cool insight. I think if I had one piece of advice from an ex-wayfer that sits pretty high in importance is stay off your own back. In TWI I learned to condemn myself on an entirely new level....never fast enough, never good enough, just never enough. Just breath and breath easy. Enjoy life and enjoy the process of sorting all of this out, it's really a rewarding process of discovery.
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waysider
I first heard VPW quote this line in the CF&S class in the early 1970s. I heard it again, while being counseled, as I made preparations to divorce my first wife.
Edited by waysidermissed a word
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OldSkool
Boy oh boy they are uttely destitute when it comes to marriage counselling. The clergy who officiated my first marriage set a booby trap during counselling that likely proved to be the end of that marriage. During counselling, and there were numerous sessions, we were asked to tell the other what would be grounds for divorce in the marriage. I came from a long line of alcoholics so of couse being under pressure she said alcoholism. Well....Im a recovering alcoholic at this point and when I went off the deep end with my drinking some years back it was a real easy progression to divorce from there. Who in their right mind would ask an engaged couple to tell the other what would be grounds for divorce?
I dont blame TWI or clergy for my marriage ending...it's largely my fault and I have made amends the best I am able. What I am saying if the concept hadn't been introduced at all we would have had a better chance of staying married through it all.
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chockfull
Sorry for that bro.
Ive got a cousin in law that got remarried a number of years back. She was a stewardess and hooked up with a test pilot on a layover. She has two kids from a previous marriage. So he shows up at her hometown condo with flowers and rings the door. The boys tell her. He keeps doing it every day for a week. A year later they get married. But since it’s her 3rd and his 2nd and they both do drink they said they better go to counseling first lol. They have been married for 5 years the kids are off in college and they are traveling the world posting photos. They look pretty happy. We gotta visit them.
Always potential for a new beginning in this life.
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Charity
I’m interested in how other Grease Spotters deal with “the accuracy of the Word,” not for the purpose of being right and therefore everyone else is wrong, but just for your own understanding?
The reason I’m asking has to do with why I came on this forum in the first place - because Jesus had pretty much been absent in my walk with God. So this morning, I began to talk with Jesus and immediately my mind jumped to, “well what about God?” So in trying to answer this question, I imagined turning my head back and forth and talking with Jesus on one side and God on the other (like you do when you’re watching a game of tennis). I also thought of maybe when I’m talking to Jesus, his “picture” pops in my mind and when I then want to talk to God, Jesus’ picture disappears and one of God pops up (kind of like Whac-a-Mole). I'm being serious here. It was all so confusing and mentally exhausting but “I wanted to get it right” (for my personal understanding). That’s when the idea came to me, either from God, Jesus or neural circuits working in my brain (who knows) of both of them sitting together on a couch with me sitting across from them. I felt peaceful with this solution so I'll stick with it for now.
Right away, however, I’m wondering what “according to scripture” can I accurately ask for or say to each one. This need is from being in TWI for so many years – THE ACCURACY OF THE WORD. I must strive to find “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.” So after deciding to read Rom 1:1-10 to see how Paul might have handled this “problem,” I found he wrote that 1) we serve both God and Jesus and 2) grace and peace come from both God and Jesus or from God through Jesus 3) God’s good news concerns his son, Jesus 4) we belong to Jesus Christ [and using “previous knowledge”, as sons of God, we also belong to Him] and 5) Paul wants to do the will of God which is all Jesus ever wanted to do (e.x., he prayed in the garden, “Father, not my will, but yours be done.” All this brought to my remembrance how Jesus said he and his Father are one (John 10:30) They want the same thing for us. Everything we have is from God through Jesus. They’re on the same team (or couch). Again peace came. Chockfull, it seems your earlier prayer for my peace is being answered one step at a time.
I hope to hear your thoughts.
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OldSkool
Well...first let's start with the source of the phrase....is that source trustworthy? No.
Then....break it down...accuracy - word. In this case, who defines accuracy? who defines word?
If you came with the way international I would say you got a 100% on your GSC rhetorical pop quiz.
Seriously, think about it. Is the way international qualified to say authoratatively what the accuracy of the word really is? Or does the way international tell you what is accurate according to their word?
As for Christiaity, God, Jesus, etc...Ive found that simple faith..aka trust in God...simple trust just the size of a grain of mustard seed is more important than most other issues. What could be more important than faith? Love! Love is the most important of all - concentrate on God's love. Just take the pressure off your own back and leave yourself alone. I literally had to learn how to do the same things I am saying to you. Jesus yoke is easy and his burden light. TWI binds us with heavy burdens, onerous to carry. They are modern day pharisees.
As for scripture, I had to learn what it really is. It's a vast literary work where the authors span about a 1500 year time period. It's existed in various forms over the years, and is cumulative in nature. It didnt become an actual book until around 1455 with the Gutenburg bible. The Bible isn't what TWI says it is. With that said, take time to look at scriptures such as:
1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
The truth is God never sets rigid standards for how our relationships are supposed to work. That's the nature of relatinship. It's personal. But if TWI says we aren't supposed to have fellowship with Jesus Christ and scripture clearly does then I think the choice and path is clear.
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Charity
I know commitment is vital in order to work out problems that pop up in all marriages. When deciding on who to marry, don't people "normally" get to know each other more than whether someone "stands on Word" or not. In the corps, when the leaders kept everyone so busy, how did anyone have time to get to know someone just as a person, not just from the "role" he or she had. It's very likely that I accepted "any 2 Christians can make a marriage work" because it sounded easy or because if VP said it, it must be true or because I struggled, even before going into the ministry with how to actually get to know the person I was dating in a healthy way. All three were genuine reasons for me at the time.
Thank you so much for the threads. My experience in searching for topics on this site has been unsuccessful. The only way I know how is to scroll through all 187 pages to find something that's connected to my topic of interest. My other choice is just to ask if any of you know a thread that could help which I'll probably be doing over time.
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Charity
I'm sorry. I don't know whether you are trying to be funny but what you said did just cause a laugh to come up and out of me.
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Charity
Waysider, I was referring to possibly you using ironic humor in your post. I do apologize if this offended you.
Can anyone tell me how to get rid of a quote you don't want before submitting your reply (like the one below)?
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T-Bone
you go into edit mode - top right and click on 3 dots - you'll have options to
report a post
share a post - shows link to copy
edit post - I think you have something like 10 hours or so from when you first posted it - after that you can't edit it.
in edit mode click on the quote you want to delete - or click on near the corner of it - when you see a little box with arrows - you should be able to click on that box to delete.
you can play around with Grease Spot tools on the testing forum - here's one of mine here - I believe you have to be signed in to use that forum - great for getting use to doing things on Grease Spot
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waysider
Nah, you didn't offend me. What I said is true, but ,I confess, sometimes my attempts at humor are a bit on the dry side for everybody's taste. I think a lot of marriages back then were borderline arranged marriages. You weren't supposed to marry someone, or even date them, unless they were a standing believer and on a comparable level as your own. (Corps marry Corps, advanced class grads marry advanced class grad, etc.)I remember being told in pre-marital counseling that the main reason for two believers to get married is to move the word as a team and put classes together. I'm not saying for a minute that I bought that. I'm only stating that to demonstrate how twisted our thinking had become.
Now as far as removing a quote before you post: You could always delete the text and leave the bubble empty. There's also an option at the bottom of the bubble, in a black window, to "clear editor" or something like that. If that fails, you can always ask a moderator to assist you. Remember though, mods aren't full-time and work out of the kindness of their hearts, so be patient with that.
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chockfull
Awesome I like peace.
It sounds like you are working out a relationship and philosophy from scripture and guidance.
And Christian community at GS.
Cool. Go for it. Don’t let anything stop you.
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Charity
I’m a retired primary grade teacher, so your use of a quiz is perfect, and the specific pop quiz you gave, I find to be very helpful.
After I read your reply, the verse “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” came to mind. I mean, that’s perfectly clear, right? Since God is the source (imho), I don’t have a problem with this. However, when VP quoted it, you knew he was stressing not the knowledge of God, but the ACCURACY of this knowledge.
So going back to your pop quiz, my answer to #1 is no. When the source is VP/TWI, I learned long ago from their handling of the Word on tithing that they were not trustworthy on that subject. Therefore, I have to remember that anything else he/TWI said cannot be blindly and naively taken as truth.
My answer to #2 is TWI with VP sitting at the top. By adding “accurate” to describe “knowledge,” he is basically directing us back to everything he/TWI teaches (AKA his opinions and definitions) because he was the one God chose to teach the accuracy of God's Word as it hadn't been known since the first century. It's funny how question #2 always brings us back to question #!.
So I did get 100% on the quiz, so now I’ll go and put a “Good Work” sticker on my forehead. Seriously though, thanks for your help.
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Charity
Perfect - will do.
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OldSkool
Very happy to be of service, thanks for the kind words of encouragement!
Interesting you mentioned that not known since the first century line wierwille used. You have very likely tossed that line in the trash bin..so not really trying to lecture you at all...so my rhetorical question isn't aimed at you.
If the information wierwille presented hadn't been known since the first century then why in the world is the information he presented traceable to extant sources?
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WordWolf
For those who think I was kidding, I was not. Another poster here had known Donna when she was pretty new at twi, and Donna had told her outright that, when she married, it was specifically going to be to a bigwig in twi. So, that was her mindset before lcm came along.
"LCM finally decided he needed to get married. He goes to Dr and lets him know his thoughts and seeking advice. Dr promised he'd look out for a good woman for him.
Later, LCM decided to marry Donna and immediately told Dr. Dr said 'She's a good woman' and then rode off quickly on his motorbike. LCM found out later that he had gone at once to call Donna and talk to her to let her know and understand fully what she was getting into with LCM. He was going to be a great leader in the ministry and she had to be prepared to handle herself accordingly, etc."
So, lcm decided on Donna, whom he didn't know well at the time. This is so freaking ODD. Instead of
"We've been together, we are a good fit with each other, we share goals and values, maybe we should consider marriage," it was
"I should get married to some woman. You, let's get married. Oh, but let's get to know each other, first."
So, vpw went off immediately, and told Donna that lcm was thinking about marrying her, and how lcm was going to be a big shot in twi and replace vpw himself. We know what she'd said before- naturally this was all she'd needed to agree to marry lcm.
All accounts of that marriage looked pretty distant and cold, and now that makes a lot of sense. It was based on lcm being twi's grand poohbah, and when he no longer was, the marriage was effectively over, long before any divorce papers were served.
"Donna was in residence at the time but Dr gave her permission to visit Emporia frequently so that they could get started early on getting to know each other."
So, a couple who had agreed to get married had to start spending time 'GETTING TO KNOW EACH OTHER.' If this was fiction, this would be considered badly-written fiction. As real life, it still doesn't make much sense.
But, apparently, in lcm's head was a phrase he later said, often, and it was recorded on tape. "Any 2 believers can make a marriage work- it's called 'commitment.' " For those of you wondering what happened to that marriage, apparently, there was no more commitment into it by at least one of them. (Besides, as she didn't seem especially fond of men, she seemed to be, in effect, married to lcm's successor. She was more concerned with who was big in twi than anything else.)
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WordWolf
How I picture this is not that different from how you picture this. Under a feudal system, a local landowner would be lord over his property and the people therein. He would swear fealty to a more powerful lord, who ruled larger sections, and so on up to the king or queen or emperor.
So, I swore fealty to Jesus and am his liegeman, he is my liege-lord. He swore fealty to God Almighty. So, they command my loyalty. (No, no church-group on earth gets in between us, that's direct from me to Jesus. I may work with a group, but my fealty is not to them. And if they try to convince me otherwise, it's time to leave the group.)
Communication may come to me from God, from Jesus, or some angel/intermediary. It's all the same, as far as I'm concerned. God and Jesus are one in purpose, and work together, having worked together for at least 2,000 years. If they are one in other ways, that only reinforces what needs no reinforcement to me. There would be issues if they ever disagreed on anything, but I don't see that happening. If they ever did, I expect they've settled any disagreements hundreds of years ago if not thousands.
=======================
Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
=======================
That "LORD" at the beginning of the verse is "YHWH", the name of God Almighty, Yahweh, and is not to be given to anyone else. David wrote that YHWH said to David's lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."
Did that refer to YHWH and Jesus?
========================
Acts 2: 34-36
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
===================
So, YHWH said that to Jesus.
===================
I Corinthians 15: 23-28
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
======================
I prefer the NASB version of the same verses, they're a little clearer, IMHO.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is clear that [j]this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
======================================
The interlinear renders "God, even the Father" as "He who is God and Father", which is clear enough. In what is to come, all will be made subject to Jesus......
...except God Almighty, Who subjected everything to Jesus- He won't be subject to Jesus. Once everything is subject to Jesus, then Jesus is subjected (as if he isn't now) to God Almighty, subjecting everything to God through Jesus, "that God may be all in all."
Will that be because that's the order, or because of the Trinity? It will work out exactly the same, either way.
Edited by WordWolf.
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WordWolf
B) The alleged promise was a lie.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24980-concerning-the-failure-of-the-1942-promise/
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