I love listening to Christian songs especially one by Lauren Daigle called “Peace be Still.” She is referring to what Jesus said to the sea after he arose and rebuked the wind but in the song, she is singing about Jesus quieting our fears.Some of the lyrics are:
I don't want to be afraid
Every time I face the waves
I don't want to be afraid
I don't want to be afraid
I don't want to fear the storm
Just because I hear it roar
I don't want to fear the storm
I don't want to fear the storm
Peace be still
Say the word and I will
Set my feet upon the sea
Till I'm dancing in the deep (I like this line because I love to dance)
Peace be still
You are here so it is well
Even when my eyes can't see
I will trust the voice that speaks
Good night and God bless
Lauren Daigle has such a soulful sounding voice
I have her 2018 album Look Up Child...the first track is electrifying:
I don’t know if anyone can relate to this but one of the strong emotions I had when I first began to read the posts about Jesus on the “absent Christ” thread was fear.It was like a “Danger! Danger!” alarm going off in my head so I just shut down.I think building a trust in Jesus will quiet the fear so I can freely accept his love.
Ive been dealing with those same fearful feelings for years, and it's not just related to this topic but all things TWI. I was literally scared to start posting here back in 2009.
Here is my first post back in 2009
On 11/1/2009 at 8:25 PM, OldSkool said:
Hi,
I'm new here and wanted to introduce myself. I've lurked GSC 5 years or more. I left TWI little over a year ago and am so incredibly happy to be OUT of there. Picking up the pieces has been tougher than I thought it would be. So, maybe I'll start posting some of my experiences soon.
On 11/1/2009 at 9:13 PM, OldSkool said:
Thanks! I just made my second post and can say it was like the first large crack in a dam that is about to burst. I got LOTS to say...Ros/Don not gonna be 2 happy with me...lol
Im not sure if you can tell from my choice of words but I was terrified to post here. The fear they instilled in me was off the charts. Picking up the pieces including my ability to be able to discuss my experiences in TWI outside of TWI's control and it was terrifying at first. Once I started posting and got a little more comfortable I soon realized that that sense of fear simply kept moving to the next topics where I would participate. Ive come to understand that the way international uses fear based tactics to control people. Fear based aren't the only manupulative tactics but that fear was very real in my life. I can't speak to the entirety of what you are dealing with, but I can relate and my advice is to keep confronting those fears and give them to God in prayer. Ask the Lord for guidance, ask for his help. But above all understand that it gets better in time. Its taken me years to just be myself here on GSC. I know that the board of directors knows exactly who OldSkool is in real life. They always knew once I started posting any substance. It took me some tim to muster the courage to no longer care. That was a process though and I encourage you to not feel pressured in anyway. Its your walk, your relationship with God/Christ, and I only ask that you walk in accord with their direction as you determine when you are ready. Healing takes time.
I have her 2018 album Look Up Child...the first track is electrifying:
I have this song as well of You Say, How Can it Be, Love Like This and Hold On to Me on my ipod. I also really like the groups "for King and Country" and "Third Day." Since 'tis the season, check out this version of Little Drummer Boy by for King and Country.
I have this song as well of You Say, How Can it Be, Love Like This and Hold On to Me on my ipod. I also really like the groups "for King and Country" and "Third Day." Since 'tis the season, check out this version of Little Drummer Boy by for King and Country.
Asking for me and Charity. She quoted you above, but not in a way that notifies you.
No I was illustrating the personal difference I feel in connection with my Lord between Way infused brain and now.
With Waybrain and the SIT teachings about being “spiritually built up” strong and the teachings in the Advanced Class which amounts to faithful in least (SIT) faithful in much (more impactful manifestations like signs miracles and wonders), the focus shifted from the personal relationship to checking boxes for an absent Christ.
However, regardless of all the teachings about them, the signs miracles and wonders definitely have never been evident in the Way household and less and less evident the farther up the organizational chain you travel.
Instead you run into golden idols like the Timothy statues and idolization of VP including excuses and whitewash.
No I think true Christianity involves melting down molten images and developing a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior.
Many want the Savior. Few want the Lord aspect as it requires subjugation of the ego.
- Once I started posting and got a little more comfortable
- I can't speak to the entirety of what you are dealing with, but I can relate and my advice is to keep confronting those fears and give them to God in prayer. Ask the Lord for guidance, ask for his help. But above all understand that it gets better in time.
- That was a process though and I encourage you to not feel pressured in anyway. Its your walk, your relationship with God/Christ, and I only ask that you walk in accord with their direction as you determine when you are ready. Healing takes time.
Thanks OldSkool. "Give them to God in prayer" and "Ask the Lord for guidance" (that would be my big daddy and my cool brother). After lurking on GSC for a couple of weeks, I found this thread and began posting because I was inspired by it. It's like finding the family of God again and it's been a blessing.
I don’t know if anyone can relate to this but one of the strong emotions I had when I first began to read the posts about Jesus on the “absent Christ” thread was fear.It was like a “Danger! Danger!” alarm going off in my head so I just shut down.I think building a trust in Jesus will quiet the fear so I can freely accept his love.
I love listening to Christian songs especially one by Lauren Daigle called “Peace be Still.” She is referring to what Jesus said to the sea after he arose and rebuked the wind but in the song, she is singing about Jesus quieting our fears.Some of the lyrics are:
I don't want to be afraid
Every time I face the waves
I don't want to be afraid
I don't want to be afraid
I don't want to fear the storm
Just because I hear it roar
I don't want to fear the storm
I don't want to fear the storm
Peace be still
Say the word and I will
Set my feet upon the sea
Till I'm dancing in the deep (I like this line because I love to dance)
Peace be still
You are here so it is well
Even when my eyes can't see
I will trust the voice that speaks
Good night and God bless
I got you. Because of past teachings any idea of JCNG being wrong freaks you out. Any reference to labeled trinitarian ideas or practices causes a lack of comfort. But there is a sense of wrongfully judging and excluding brothers and sisters in Christ not connected to the Way.
Thanks for the song from Lauren Daigle. The lyrics are pretty. I’ll look up the song.
Sorry if my progressive views on Jesus Christ shocked you. I’m not selling them or proselytizing.
I just don’t believe a system of logic that got me to an anti Christ place while being labeled Christian.
No I was illustrating the personal difference I feel in connection with my Lord between Way infused brain and now.
With Waybrain and the SIT teachings about being “spiritually built up” strong and the teachings in the Advanced Class which amounts to faithful in least (SIT) faithful in much (more impactful manifestations like signs miracles and wonders), the focus shifted from the personal relationship to checking boxes for an absent Christ.
However, regardless of all the teachings about them, the signs miracles and wonders definitely have never been evident in the Way household and less and less evident the farther up the organizational chain you travel.
Instead you run into golden idols like the Timothy statues and idolization of VP including excuses and whitewash.
No I think true Christianity involves melting down molten images and developing a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior.
Many want the Savior. Few want the Lord aspect as it requires subjugation of the ego.
"Connection with my Lord" is such a personal and beautiful statement. It's bringing tears to my eyes (happy ones this time). I so much want to be able to say those words from my heart - I know I'm getting there. Regarding the topic of SIT, I'm sure there must be a forum on this which I'll check out at a later date but while reading the book of John this morning, this verse came up: "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." John 4:23 We were taught this meant SIT. Without going into detail since I'll be checking for a forum, do you still believe this teaching is accurate?
Ive been dealing with those same fearful feelings for years, and it's not just related to this topic but all things TWI. I was literally scared to start posting here back in 2009.
Here is my first post back in 2009
Im not sure if you can tell from my choice of words but I was terrified to post here. The fear they instilled in me was off the charts. Picking up the pieces including my ability to be able to discuss my experiences in TWI outside of TWI's control and it was terrifying at first. Once I started posting and got a little more comfortable I soon realized that that sense of fear simply kept moving to the next topics where I would participate. Ive come to understand that the way international uses fear based tactics to control people. Fear based aren't the only manupulative tactics but that fear was very real in my life. I can't speak to the entirety of what you are dealing with, but I can relate and my advice is to keep confronting those fears and give them to God in prayer. Ask the Lord for guidance, ask for his help. But above all understand that it gets better in time. Its taken me years to just be myself here on GSC. I know that the board of directors knows exactly who OldSkool is in real life. They always knew once I started posting any substance. It took me some tim to muster the courage to no longer care. That was a process though and I encourage you to not feel pressured in anyway. Its your walk, your relationship with God/Christ, and I only ask that you walk in accord with their direction as you determine when you are ready. Healing takes time.
I wrote a reply to your post about an hour ago but I don't see it now. I must have done something wrong. I'll post it again in a little bit. Question though: when I clicked on "quote" under your post, it allowed me to edit it so I could isolate the sentences that I was going to refer to in my post. This editing that I did wasn't the reason my post didn't go through, was it? Then again, maybe it did go through so if you find it, let me know. Thanks
"Connection with my Lord" is such a personal and beautiful statement. It's bringing tears to my eyes (happy ones this time). I so much want to be able to say those words from my heart - I know I'm getting there. Regarding the topic of SIT, I'm sure there must be a forum on this which I'll check out at a later date but while reading the book of John this morning, this verse came up: "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." John 4:23 We were taught this meant SIT. Without going into detail since I'll be checking for a forum, do you still believe this teaching is accurate?
I think SIT is mentioned so infrequently directly in the Bible that there are places that reference it by implication.
In John these are Jesus words prophecying of the future. He didn’t know exactly what it would be in one sense. He as a man had no experience of that. He is speaking clearly as the Son of God in gospel entirely from the perspective of Jesus as the Son. Language and perspective is different in the other gospels.
VP in RHST says there is a figure of speech there meaning “truthfully via the spirit” and goes on with that logic to build the case for nobody really being a true Christian without SIT.
To me that is a stretch. How about just literally reading the damn verse? Sorry fighting off the waybrain triggers me lol.
In spirit and in truth.
How about pray in spirit and with understanding personally including SIT in personal life as you feel it?
And in truth meaning to actually live the rest of the sections in Corinthians 12-14 about a viewpoint that supports a whole functioning body of Christ operating without the need for decrees from a group of ninnies?
Or a special snowstorm and a flaming rocket trail of destruction following? Or golden Timothy statues of dead guys not Timothy?
I have this song as well of You Say, How Can it Be, Love Like This and Hold On to Me on my ipod. I also really like the groups "for King and Country" and "Third Day." Since 'tis the season, check out this version of Little Drummer Boy by for King and Country.
14 hours ago, Charity said:
As suggested on this website, I started to read the gospel of John this evening in order to get to know Jesus and how he lived.John 5:23 really stood out because it related to my earlier post of today about Christians I knew in the past who worshiped both Jesus and God equally because of their belief in the trinity, and how I instead began to exalt God much, much higher than Jesus because of my belief that Jesus was not God and my desire not to be an "idolater" like them.
God the father and Jesus the son (not God the son) are both to be equally honored (respected, esteemed, admired).What peace this brings to anyone who wants to build a relationship with Jesus such as moi! (that’s “me” in French). I'm Canadian by the way.
I don’t get out muchso I like getting turned on to new music – thanks for mentioning For King & Country and Third Day. I also quoted an earlier post of yours cuz I like the simplicity and eloquence of it
My Mom was from Nova Scotia - her dad was a fisherman and rumrunner during prohibition era
on one family vacation – I was about 7-years old, grandpa, my dad and I were walking along the shoreline and came upon a seagull walking around with a busted wing. I reached down and gently petted its head – looking up I could tell by their expressions my impulsiveness freaked out dad & grandpa - at home I had to drag my dad into conversations with my friends to back up my seagull story as an eyewitness.
My wife and I vacationed there a few years ago – including a whale watching cruise!
I think SIT is mentioned so infrequently directly in the Bible that there are places that reference it by implication.
In John these are Jesus words prophecying of the future. He didn’t know exactly what it would be in one sense. He as a man had no experience of that. He is speaking clearly as the Son of God in gospel entirely from the perspective of Jesus as the Son. Language and perspective is different in the other gospels.
VP in RHST says there is a figure of speech there meaning “truthfully via the spirit” and goes on with that logic to build the case for nobody really being a true Christian without SIT.
To me that is a stretch. How about just literally reading the damn verse? Sorry fighting off the waybrain triggers me lol.
In spirit and in truth.
How about pray in spirit and with understanding personally including SIT in personal life as you feel it?
And in truth meaning to actually live the rest of the sections in Corinthians 12-14 about a viewpoint that supports a whole functioning body of Christ operating without the need for decrees from a group of ninnies?
Or a special snowstorm and a flaming rocket trail of destruction following? Or golden Timothy statues of dead guys not Timothy?
1 hour ago, chockfull said:
I got you. Because of past teachings any idea of JCNG being wrong freaks you out. Any reference to labeled trinitarian ideas or practices causes a lack of comfort. But there is a sense of wrongfully judging and excluding brothers and sisters in Christ not connected to the Way.
Thanks for the song from Lauren Daigle. The lyrics are pretty. I’ll look up the song.
Sorry if my progressive views on Jesus Christ shocked you. I’m not selling them or proselytizing.
I just don’t believe a system of logic that got me to an anti Christ place while being labeled Christian.
I will pray for your peace.
I don't think I said I was freaking out about JCNG and I hope I wasn't acting freaked out but I do think I need to clarify a few things and correct a mistake.
My mistake is using Deut 5:7 to explain what people are doing when they believe Jesus is God. I understand now what this verse is saying, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" with the word "before" meaning above or over. This verse would fit the definition of an idolater (please correct me if I'm wrong). So I'm saying now that Christians who believe in the trinity are not "idolaters" because they do not exalt Jesus over God. They believe that as God the son, Jesus is equal to God.
I don't remember who wrote to me to say that Jesus cannot be exalted over God because the scriptures say it was God who highly exalted Jesus and made him to sit on his right hand. If this person was referring to my earlier post, I didn't make the connection until I read yours.
Just to clarify, the doctrine of JCNG did negatively affect my relationship with Jesus. I was looking for a way to correct this and that's how reading John 5:23 helped to clear things up for me. "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Knowing this can now improve my relationship with Jesus.
Also, I never want to go back to judging, shunning or demeaning Christians who didn't believe in what the way taught. Nor do I want to do it now if others don't believe what I do (which is how I probably sounded in my previous posts). I think it was on this forum that people were sharing that the household of God includes all Christians and the Word says we are to do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Finally, I was not or am not shocked by what you shared. I look forward to reading all your posts.
Thank you for your prayer. Peace to you too.
2 hours ago, chockfull said:
I got you. Because of past teachings any idea of JCNG being wrong freaks you out. Any reference to labeled trinitarian ideas or practices causes a lack of comfort. But there is a sense of wrongfully judging and excluding brothers and sisters in Christ not connected to the Way.
Thanks for the song from Lauren Daigle. The lyrics are pretty. I’ll look up the song.
Sorry if my progressive views on Jesus Christ shocked you. I’m not selling them or proselytizing.
I just don’t believe a system of logic that got me to an anti Christ place while being labeled Christian.
I don’t get out muchso I like getting turned on to new music – thanks for mentioning For King & Country and Third Day. I also quoted an earlier post of yours cuz I like the simplicity and eloquence of it Thank you
My Mom was from Nova Scotia - her dad was a fisherman and rumrunner during prohibition era
My son-in-law is from there too. He wants to take my daughter and their 2 kids there one day.
Where I live is right across the river from Detroit Mi. There's a long history of rum running here as well.
on one family vacation – I was about 7-years old, grandpa, my dad and I were walking along the shoreline and came upon a seagull walking around with a busted wing. I reached down and gently petted its head – looking up I could tell by their expressions my impulsiveness freaked out dad & grandpa - at home I had to drag my dad into conversations with my friends to back up my seagull story as an eyewitness.
It's great that the seagull didn't run away so you could pet it.
My wife and I vacationed there a few years ago – including a whale watching cruise!
I have never visited the east or west coast of Canada. Maybe I should tag along with my son-in-law when he takes his family to Nova Scotia.
Such a sweet song made so powerful by the drums. I love it!
You know, I listened to this song quite a while ago. Sad to say, I didn't like it because those were my "exalting God and diminishing Jesus" days when the idea of worshiping Jesus was taboo. Thank you for bringing it back to me - it gave me goosebumps listening to it.
In John these are Jesus words prophecying of the future. He didn’t know exactly what it would be in one sense. He as a man had no experience of that. He is speaking clearly as the Son of God in gospel entirely from the perspective of Jesus as the Son. Language and perspective is different in the other gospels.
A question for clarity. The context here is SIT (I think). Are you saying Jesus had no experience of SIT? Just trying to understand what "that" is.
2 hours ago, chockfull said:
VP in RHST says there is a figure of speech there meaning “truthfully via the spirit” and goes on with that logic to build the case for nobody really being a true Christian without SIT.
To me that is a stretch. How about just literally reading the damn verse? Sorry fighting off the waybrain triggers me lol.
In spirit and in truth.
I've tried to find a textual variant to support "truthfully via the spirit" or any text evidence remotely close to supporting this so-called idiom. And when I say remotely close, I mean a generous length of rope. And when I say generous, I mean a million light years generous. So, what I'm saying is: There is a chance!
I may have overlooked something. My Greek is still neophyte level. Can you steelman victor's claim? Or point me to the text? I can read it for myself.
A question for clarity. The context here is SIT (I think). Are you saying Jesus had no experience of SIT? Just trying to understand what "that" is.
I've tried to find a textual variant to support "truthfully via the spirit" or any text evidence remotely close to supporting this so-called idiom. And when I say remotely close, I mean a generous length of rope. And when I say generous, I mean a million light years generous. So, what I'm saying is: There is a chance!
I may have overlooked something. My Greek is still neophyte level. Can you steelman victor's claim? Or point me to the text? I can read it for myself.
Context I think is Jesus saying worship in spirit and in truth.
Prophecying of something new at Pentecost.
So for figures of speech I believe Bullingers Figures of Speech come into play there as opposed to a textual variant. I just don’t agree with VP there. I think he is shoe horning a miscellaneous type figure of speech in saying “oh but what it really means is this not that”
This would be a metonymy type or change substitution.
I don't think I said I was freaking out about JCNG and I hope I wasn't acting freaked out but I do think I need to clarify a few things and correct a mistake.
My mistake is using Deut 5:7 to explain what people are doing when they believe Jesus is God. I understand now what this verse is saying, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" with the word "before" meaning above or over. This verse would fit the definition of an idolater (please correct me if I'm wrong). So I'm saying now that Christians who believe in the trinity are not "idolaters" because they do not exalt Jesus over God. They believe that as God the son, Jesus is equal to God.
I don't remember who wrote to me to say that Jesus cannot be exalted over God because the scriptures say it was God who highly exalted Jesus and made him to sit on his right hand. If this person was referring to my earlier post, I didn't make the connection until I read yours.
Just to clarify, the doctrine of JCNG did negatively affect my relationship with Jesus. I was looking for a way to correct this and that's how reading John 5:23 helped to clear things up for me. "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Knowing this can now improve my relationship with Jesus.
Also, I never want to go back to judging, shunning or demeaning Christians who didn't believe in what the way taught. Nor do I want to do it now if others don't believe what I do (which is how I probably sounded in my previous posts). I think it was on this forum that people were sharing that the household of God includes all Christians and the Word says we are to do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Finally, I was not or am not shocked by what you shared. I look forward to reading all your posts.
Thank you for your prayer. Peace to you too.
Hey thx for answering! I love people talking about Christ and yes the household in Biblical non Way terms IS the body of Christ as you referenced above.
Yes I agree honoring the Son honors the Father and vice versa. I don’t find it that complicated more like a convo in a good family “Son you are awesome” “Dad it’s because I was raised in a good house”
One interesting portion of the gospels in question here is doubting Thomas, who after touching Jesus exclaimed “my Lord and God”.
Now I have read Aladdin and the Magic Lamp, which does bring into play eastern customs. Which VP can stretch along with other angles when the text doesn’t fit his preconceptions.
But the guy seemed pretty specific there. Why was he so confused lumping them both together like that?
I know it’s metonymy of Greek for Aramaic.
Metonymy of one shoe horn for a bigger one from a different country.
Anyway more ramblings about my Jesus Christ views and philosophy.
Context I think is Jesus saying worship in spirit and in truth.
Prophecying of something new at Pentecost.
So for figures of speech I believe Bullingers Figures of Speech come into play there as opposed to a textual variant. I just don’t agree with VP there. I think he is shoe horning a miscellaneous type figure of speech in saying “oh but what it really means is this not that”
This would be a metonymy type or change substitution.
Thanks.
So, his reasoning was based on pure, flowing bullshonta. A shameless private interpretation. A fantasy. Just making it up as he went along. Forcing the text to say what he wanted it to say, aka glove fitting.
"Connection with my Lord" is such a personal and beautiful statement. It's bringing tears to my eyes (happy ones this time). I so much want to be able to say those words from my heart - I know I'm getting there. Regarding the topic of SIT, I'm sure there must be a forum on this which I'll check out at a later date but while reading the book of John this morning, this verse came up: "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." John 4:23 We were taught this meant SIT. Without going into detail since I'll be checking for a forum, do you still believe this teaching is accurate?
I think with SIT and TWI they misuse the concept and set the stage for blantant fakery. Why do I say fakery? Because there are folks here on GSC that admit they faked it out of pressure from TWI. Personally, I found the honesty refreshing. So with this topic I think theres a few over-simplified categories, but for communication sake and in no order of importance:
1 - Those who never spoke in tongues
2 - Those who actually did speak in tongues
3 - Those who faked it for one reason or another.
Personally, once I saw SIT in scripture I literally just started speaking in tongues. No coaching, no excellor session, no pressure. I would be willing to submit a recording to a qualified, un-biased linguist. But what proof can I offer here that its legit? None. Just my word that Im not BSn and that it's just always flowed freely. If it ever turned out that the tongue was just me somehow faking it then so be it. Doesn't negate anything except that something I thought was legit isnt and I would need to keep searching the topic to figure out the real deal. Fair enough because ive been doing that for 14 years now since leaving TWI and I don't intend to stop.
TWI forces people to produce what they call speaking in tongues. As ex-way corps I can tell you from coordinating many classes that there is pressure to make sure everyone speaks in tongues in the foundational class. No pressure to produce legit speaking in tongues, just pressure to produce. Naturally, there are some who faked it and maybe that's a majority. Im not qualified to say and can only speculate. What I do appreciate is the honesty of several people on GSC who came forward and called BS on TWI when it comes to speaking in tongues. I was naive enough to think that nobody would fake it. Well, social pressure is a bioch and honestly, well meaning people were put in a pressure type situation to produce and they did what they needed to do to get the class crew off their back. I fully fault TWI for this scenario because its common and systemic with the way international.
I will also say that this isnt really a Christian site. Meaning there are some Christians who post here and there are some who aren't Christian who post here. There are some here who believe that all modern say SIT is bullshonta. While I may or may not agree (depending on the scenario) I do respect opposing points of view and respect peoples choice to believe as they see fit - after all God gave free will and who am I to get in the way of that process. I have no business judging anybody's personal walk, or lack thereof. At this point Im more interested in respect and if that respect is mutual then there can be a healthy relationship with proper boundaries in place. If it's not mutual then I respect that as well. Nobody has to believe as I do for me to believe as I do, or respect what I believe.
TWI has a lot about speaking in tongues wrong, especially those dumba$$ excellor sessions that only go towads fulfilling a bogus promise made when people register for the class. That bogus promise? How to know you are born again. That's TWI's lithmus test. The way international has this problem with lording over God's people and adding unnessary garbage on top of the Christian's lifestyle. I think speaking in tongues is fairly clear in scripture with a few verses that are perhaps questionable in their presentation in TWI. So all the pressure, and all the plateaus about speaking in tongues needs to be thrown off to the side because there are way more important issues with salvation besides whether or not I can speak in tongues.
Edited by OldSkool Quoted Nathan_Jr by mistake. Wassup Nate!
I don't remember who wrote to me to say that Jesus cannot be exalted over God because the scriptures say it was God who highly exalted Jesus and made him to sit on his right hand. If this person was referring to my earlier post, I didn't make the connection until I read yours.
23 hours ago, OldSkool said:
BTW - It's impossible to elevate Jesus Christ above God because It's God who has highly exalted him.
It was me. I didn't say it for any other reason than TWI teaches that you can place Jesus above God and be an idolater. Not true, just typical anti-Christ garbage from them. But like I said, it wasn't relative to anything you posted.
I found the honesty refreshing. So with this topic I think theres a few over-simplified categories, but for communication sake and in no order of importance:
1 - Those who never spoke in tongues
2 - Those who actually did speak in tongues
3 - Those who faked it for one reason or another.
I’m in category #3 …as a high school class clown I used to have foreign characters in my repertoire sounding like someone from Russia, China , Africa, and New York - NY was easy since I grew up there …but seriously at session 12 I just jumped into my high school foreign student schtick cuz it felt natural to do that - some old habits never die
So, his reasoning was based on pure, flowing bullshonta. A shameless private interpretation. A fantasy. Just making it up as he went along. Forcing the text to say what he wanted it to say, aka glove fitting.
I just find that for me personally JCNG supposedly handles the edge case scriptures regarding Christs deity or equality status with God the Father but in reality falls flat on its face with questionable scripture interpretation that 100% smacks of proving a personal theory in scripture with a mallet and shoehorn.
Fitting a square peg into a round hole by carving.
A workman who needs to be ashamed of the BS lazy tactics utilized in his workmanship, leading thousands to delusion.
I think with SIT and TWI they misuse the concept and set the stage for blantant fakery. Why do I say fakery? Because there are folks here on GSC that admit they faked it out of pressure from TWI. Personally, I found the honesty refreshing. So with this topic I think theres a few over-simplified categories, but for communication sake and in no order of importance:
1 - Those who never spoke in tongues
2 - Those who actually did speak in tongues
3 - Those who faked it for one reason or another.
Personally, once I saw SIT in scripture I literally just started speaking in tongues. No coaching, no excellor session, no pressure. I would be willing to submit a recording to a qualified, un-biased linguist. But what proof can I offer here that its legit? None. Just my word that Im not BSn and that it's just always flowed freely. If it ever turned out that the tongue was just me somehow faking it then so be it. Doesn't negate anything except that something I thought was legit isnt and I would need to keep searching the topic to figure out the real deal. Fair enough because ive been doing that for 14 years now since leaving TWI and I don't intend to stop.
TWI forces people to produce what they call speaking in tongues. As ex-way corps I can tell you from coordinating many classes that there is pressure to make sure everyone speaks in tongues in the foundational class. No pressure to produce legit speaking in tongues, just pressure to produce. Naturally, there are some who faked it and maybe that's a majority. Im not qualified to say and can only speculate. What I do appreciate is the honesty of several people on GSC who came forward and called BS on TWI when it comes to speaking in tongues. I was naive enough to think that nobody would fake it. Well, social pressure is a bioch and honestly, well meaning people were put in a pressure type situation to produce and they did what they needed to do to get the class crew off their back. I fully fault TWI for this scenario because its common and systemic with the way international.
I will also say that this isnt really a Christian site. Meaning there are some Christians who post here and there are some who aren't Christian who post here. There are some here who believe that all modern say SIT is bullshonta. While I may or may not agree (depending on the scenario) I do respect opposing points of view and respect peoples choice to believe as they see fit - after all God gave free will and who am I to get in the way of that process. I have no business judging anybody's personal walk, or lack thereof. At this point Im more interested in respect and if that respect is mutual then there can be a healthy relationship with proper boundaries in place. If it's not mutual then I respect that as well. Nobody has to believe as I do for me to believe as I do, or respect what I believe.
TWI has a lot about speaking in tongues wrong, especially those dumba$$ excellor sessions that only go towads fulfilling a bogus promise made when people register for the class. That bogus promise? How to know you are born again. That's TWI's lithmus test. The way international has this problem with lording over God's people and adding unnessary garbage on top of the Christian's lifestyle. I think speaking in tongues is fairly clear in scripture with a few verses that are perhaps questionable in their presentation in TWI. So all the pressure, and all the plateaus about speaking in tongues needs to be thrown off to the side because there are way more important issues with salvation besides whether or not I can speak in tongues.
Spot on.
Personally the way I was led into tongues was a friend who went to an Oral Robert’s stadium meeting and brought home teachings. Ironically a different year from VP faking his way on stage at another one of those. But the guy just taught me a couple things we prayed and then it flowed naturally.
I later attended another one of Orals offerings or one of his kids. They don’t really do any of the evangelist style tent meetings or stadium meetings made famous by Steve Martin in Leap of Faith any more. I remember it was encouraging and inspiring.
When I got into the Way I liked the detail on the manifestations but didn’t really question the whole package taught and lived and what the fruit was.
Today I just pray and it goes back and forth and who cares but God hears and knows. And like Corinthians says without love it is more cowbell only lol In a space of silence in an extended prayer meeting I may be inspired to bring forth a message where there is tongues. Or not. Or what we called in twig prophecy.
But the format of controlling Maggie Muggins in the name of controlling the flow of a meeting is repulsive. It’s more about the control than about the power shown or the message.
I'm a number 2 and guess what else I was doing when I SIT for the first time - crying (of course). I was taught in the class that SIT was proof that I was born again and being born again was proof that God loved me and knowing this, personally experiencing this, was a BIG deal for me. Growing up in the Catholic Church, I saw how MUCH emphasis was placed on us as being sinners and how MUCH focus there was on us to do all the works and keep all the traditions in order to deal with that sin. It seemed like I was playing catch up all the time. Then, I was pretty self-destructive during my teenage years so I heaped the guilt on so high, it was a miracle I didn't become a nun and lock myself up in a convent. That's why at the age of 18 when I took the class, SIT meant so much to me.
TWI forces people to produce what they call speaking in tongues. As ex-way corps I can tell you from coordinating many classes that there is pressure to make sure everyone speaks in tongues in the foundational class. No pressure to produce legit speaking in tongues, just pressure to produce. Naturally, there are some who faked it and maybe that's a majority.
For me, I believed it was genuine. I was listening to what VP was saying so I wasn't thinking about how to make to fake it.
I will also say that this isnt really a Christian site. Meaning there are some Christians who post here and there are some who aren't Christian who post here.
Thank you for clarifying this for me. There are some here who believe that all modern say SIT is bullshonta. While I may or may not agree (depending on the scenario) I do respect opposing points of view and respect peoples choice to believe as they see fit - after all God gave free will and who am I to get in the way of that process.
I have no business judging anybody's personal walk, or lack thereof.
I sort of shared my thoughts on this with chockfull earlier today.
I think speaking in tongues is fairly clear in scripture with a few verses that are perhaps questionable in their presentation in TWI. (I agree) However, the range of words in my tongues is pretty limited and repetitive so I'm not sure was that means.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
427
271
423
257
Popular Days
Feb 14
142
Oct 13
105
Jan 18
101
Oct 8
88
Top Posters In This Topic
Mike 427 posts
T-Bone 271 posts
OldSkool 423 posts
Nathan_Jr 257 posts
Popular Days
Feb 14 2023
142 posts
Oct 13 2022
105 posts
Jan 18 2023
101 posts
Oct 8 2022
88 posts
Popular Posts
OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
Posted Images
T-Bone
Lauren Daigle has such a soulful sounding voice
I have her 2018 album Look Up Child...the first track is electrifying:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Ive been dealing with those same fearful feelings for years, and it's not just related to this topic but all things TWI. I was literally scared to start posting here back in 2009.
Here is my first post back in 2009
Im not sure if you can tell from my choice of words but I was terrified to post here. The fear they instilled in me was off the charts. Picking up the pieces including my ability to be able to discuss my experiences in TWI outside of TWI's control and it was terrifying at first. Once I started posting and got a little more comfortable I soon realized that that sense of fear simply kept moving to the next topics where I would participate. Ive come to understand that the way international uses fear based tactics to control people. Fear based aren't the only manupulative tactics but that fear was very real in my life. I can't speak to the entirety of what you are dealing with, but I can relate and my advice is to keep confronting those fears and give them to God in prayer. Ask the Lord for guidance, ask for his help. But above all understand that it gets better in time. Its taken me years to just be myself here on GSC. I know that the board of directors knows exactly who OldSkool is in real life. They always knew once I started posting any substance. It took me some tim to muster the courage to no longer care. That was a process though and I encourage you to not feel pressured in anyway. Its your walk, your relationship with God/Christ, and I only ask that you walk in accord with their direction as you determine when you are ready. Healing takes time.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Thank you Nathan_Jr.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I have this song as well of You Say, How Can it Be, Love Like This and Hold On to Me on my ipod. I also really like the groups "for King and Country" and "Third Day." Since 'tis the season, check out this version of Little Drummer Boy by for King and Country.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I forgot the website:
https://www.google.com/search?q=dummer+boy+christian+group&client=firefox-b-d&ei=0seIY9u9D7KpptQP4uGD6Ao&ved=0ahUKEwjb7p_Y3dj7AhWylIkEHeLwAK0Q4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=dummer+boy+christian+group&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIICAAQCBAeEA06CggAEEcQ1gQQsAM6BAgAEEM6BggAEAcQHjoFCAAQkQI6CAgAEAcQHhAKOggIABAIEAcQHjoICAAQBRAHEB46BggAEAgQHjoICAAQCBAeEA86BQgAEKIESgQIQRgASgUIQBIBMUoECEYYAFD8BVjuGmDxH2gBcAF4AIABXogB_waSAQIxMZgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e890b01d,vid:5l1CS0Jhk90
I don't know if the above will work. If it doesn't you can google the title and group - it's the live from Phoenix video.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
No I was illustrating the personal difference I feel in connection with my Lord between Way infused brain and now.
With Waybrain and the SIT teachings about being “spiritually built up” strong and the teachings in the Advanced Class which amounts to faithful in least (SIT) faithful in much (more impactful manifestations like signs miracles and wonders), the focus shifted from the personal relationship to checking boxes for an absent Christ.
However, regardless of all the teachings about them, the signs miracles and wonders definitely have never been evident in the Way household and less and less evident the farther up the organizational chain you travel.
Instead you run into golden idols like the Timothy statues and idolization of VP including excuses and whitewash.
No I think true Christianity involves melting down molten images and developing a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior.
Many want the Savior. Few want the Lord aspect as it requires subjugation of the ego.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Thanks OldSkool. "Give them to God in prayer" and "Ask the Lord for guidance" (that would be my big daddy and my cool brother). After lurking on GSC for a couple of weeks, I found this thread and began posting because I was inspired by it. It's like finding the family of God again and it's been a blessing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I got you. Because of past teachings any idea of JCNG being wrong freaks you out. Any reference to labeled trinitarian ideas or practices causes a lack of comfort. But there is a sense of wrongfully judging and excluding brothers and sisters in Christ not connected to the Way.
Thanks for the song from Lauren Daigle. The lyrics are pretty. I’ll look up the song.
Sorry if my progressive views on Jesus Christ shocked you. I’m not selling them or proselytizing.
I just don’t believe a system of logic that got me to an anti Christ place while being labeled Christian.
I will pray for your peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
"Connection with my Lord" is such a personal and beautiful statement. It's bringing tears to my eyes (happy ones this time). I so much want to be able to say those words from my heart - I know I'm getting there. Regarding the topic of SIT, I'm sure there must be a forum on this which I'll check out at a later date but while reading the book of John this morning, this verse came up: "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." John 4:23 We were taught this meant SIT. Without going into detail since I'll be checking for a forum, do you still believe this teaching is accurate?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I wrote a reply to your post about an hour ago but I don't see it now. I must have done something wrong. I'll post it again in a little bit. Question though: when I clicked on "quote" under your post, it allowed me to edit it so I could isolate the sentences that I was going to refer to in my post. This editing that I did wasn't the reason my post didn't go through, was it? Then again, maybe it did go through so if you find it, let me know
. Thanks
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I think SIT is mentioned so infrequently directly in the Bible that there are places that reference it by implication.
In John these are Jesus words prophecying of the future. He didn’t know exactly what it would be in one sense. He as a man had no experience of that. He is speaking clearly as the Son of God in gospel entirely from the perspective of Jesus as the Son. Language and perspective is different in the other gospels.
VP in RHST says there is a figure of speech there meaning “truthfully via the spirit” and goes on with that logic to build the case for nobody really being a true Christian without SIT.
To me that is a stretch. How about just literally reading the damn verse? Sorry fighting off the waybrain triggers me lol.
In spirit and in truth.
How about pray in spirit and with understanding personally including SIT in personal life as you feel it?
And in truth meaning to actually live the rest of the sections in Corinthians 12-14 about a viewpoint that supports a whole functioning body of Christ operating without the need for decrees from a group of ninnies?
Or a special snowstorm and a flaming rocket trail of destruction following? Or golden Timothy statues of dead guys not Timothy?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I don’t get out much
so I like getting turned on to new music – thanks for mentioning For King & Country and Third Day. I also quoted an earlier post of yours cuz I like the simplicity and eloquence of it
My Mom was from Nova Scotia - her dad was a fisherman and rumrunner during prohibition era
on one family vacation – I was about 7-years old, grandpa, my dad and I were walking along the shoreline and came upon a seagull walking around with a busted wing. I reached down and gently petted its head – looking up I could tell by their expressions my impulsiveness freaked out dad & grandpa
- at home I had to drag my dad into conversations with my friends to back up my seagull story as an eyewitness.
My wife and I vacationed there a few years ago – including a whale watching cruise!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I don't think I said I was freaking out about JCNG and I hope I wasn't acting freaked out but I do think I need to clarify a few things and correct a mistake.
My mistake is using Deut 5:7 to explain what people are doing when they believe Jesus is God. I understand now what this verse is saying, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" with the word "before" meaning above or over. This verse would fit the definition of an idolater (please correct me if I'm wrong). So I'm saying now that Christians who believe in the trinity are not "idolaters" because they do not exalt Jesus over God. They believe that as God the son, Jesus is equal to God.
I don't remember who wrote to me to say that Jesus cannot be exalted over God because the scriptures say it was God who highly exalted Jesus and made him to sit on his right hand. If this person was referring to my earlier post, I didn't make the connection until I read yours.
Just to clarify, the doctrine of JCNG did negatively affect my relationship with Jesus. I was looking for a way to correct this and that's how reading John 5:23 helped to clear things up for me. "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Knowing this can now improve my relationship with Jesus.
Also, I never want to go back to judging, shunning or demeaning Christians who didn't believe in what the way taught. Nor do I want to do it now if others don't believe what I do (which is how I probably sounded in my previous posts). I think it was on this forum that people were sharing that the household of God includes all Christians and the Word says we are to do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Finally, I was not or am not shocked by what you shared. I look forward to reading all your posts.
Thank you for your prayer. Peace to you too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
A question for clarity. The context here is SIT (I think). Are you saying Jesus had no experience of SIT? Just trying to understand what "that" is.
I've tried to find a textual variant to support "truthfully via the spirit" or any text evidence remotely close to supporting this so-called idiom. And when I say remotely close, I mean a generous length of rope. And when I say generous, I mean a million light years generous. So, what I'm saying is: There is a chance!
I may have overlooked something. My Greek is still neophyte level. Can you steelman victor's claim? Or point me to the text? I can read it for myself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Context I think is Jesus saying worship in spirit and in truth.
Prophecying of something new at Pentecost.
So for figures of speech I believe Bullingers Figures of Speech come into play there as opposed to a textual variant. I just don’t agree with VP there. I think he is shoe horning a miscellaneous type figure of speech in saying “oh but what it really means is this not that”
This would be a metonymy type or change substitution.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Hey thx for answering! I love people talking about Christ and yes the household in Biblical non Way terms IS the body of Christ as you referenced above.
Yes I agree honoring the Son honors the Father and vice versa. I don’t find it that complicated more like a convo in a good family “Son you are awesome” “Dad it’s because I was raised in a good house”
One interesting portion of the gospels in question here is doubting Thomas, who after touching Jesus exclaimed “my Lord and God”.
Now I have read Aladdin and the Magic Lamp, which does bring into play eastern customs. Which VP can stretch along with other angles when the text doesn’t fit his preconceptions.
But the guy seemed pretty specific there. Why was he so confused lumping them both together like that?
I know it’s metonymy of Greek for Aramaic.
Metonymy of one shoe horn for a bigger one from a different country.
Anyway more ramblings about my Jesus Christ views and philosophy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Thanks.
So, his reasoning was based on pure, flowing bullshonta. A shameless private interpretation. A fantasy. Just making it up as he went along. Forcing the text to say what he wanted it to say, aka glove fitting.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
I think with SIT and TWI they misuse the concept and set the stage for blantant fakery. Why do I say fakery? Because there are folks here on GSC that admit they faked it out of pressure from TWI. Personally, I found the honesty refreshing. So with this topic I think theres a few over-simplified categories, but for communication sake and in no order of importance:
1 - Those who never spoke in tongues
2 - Those who actually did speak in tongues
3 - Those who faked it for one reason or another.
Personally, once I saw SIT in scripture I literally just started speaking in tongues. No coaching, no excellor session, no pressure. I would be willing to submit a recording to a qualified, un-biased linguist. But what proof can I offer here that its legit? None. Just my word that Im not BSn and that it's just always flowed freely. If it ever turned out that the tongue was just me somehow faking it then so be it. Doesn't negate anything except that something I thought was legit isnt and I would need to keep searching the topic to figure out the real deal. Fair enough because ive been doing that for 14 years now since leaving TWI and I don't intend to stop.
TWI forces people to produce what they call speaking in tongues. As ex-way corps I can tell you from coordinating many classes that there is pressure to make sure everyone speaks in tongues in the foundational class. No pressure to produce legit speaking in tongues, just pressure to produce. Naturally, there are some who faked it and maybe that's a majority. Im not qualified to say and can only speculate. What I do appreciate is the honesty of several people on GSC who came forward and called BS on TWI when it comes to speaking in tongues. I was naive enough to think that nobody would fake it. Well, social pressure is a bioch and honestly, well meaning people were put in a pressure type situation to produce and they did what they needed to do to get the class crew off their back. I fully fault TWI for this scenario because its common and systemic with the way international.
I will also say that this isnt really a Christian site. Meaning there are some Christians who post here and there are some who aren't Christian who post here. There are some here who believe that all modern say SIT is bullshonta. While I may or may not agree (depending on the scenario) I do respect opposing points of view and respect peoples choice to believe as they see fit - after all God gave free will and who am I to get in the way of that process. I have no business judging anybody's personal walk, or lack thereof. At this point Im more interested in respect and if that respect is mutual then there can be a healthy relationship with proper boundaries in place. If it's not mutual then I respect that as well. Nobody has to believe as I do for me to believe as I do, or respect what I believe.
TWI has a lot about speaking in tongues wrong, especially those dumba$$ excellor sessions that only go towads fulfilling a bogus promise made when people register for the class. That bogus promise? How to know you are born again. That's TWI's lithmus test. The way international has this problem with lording over God's people and adding unnessary garbage on top of the Christian's lifestyle. I think speaking in tongues is fairly clear in scripture with a few verses that are perhaps questionable in their presentation in TWI. So all the pressure, and all the plateaus about speaking in tongues needs to be thrown off to the side because there are way more important issues with salvation besides whether or not I can speak in tongues.
Edited by OldSkoolQuoted Nathan_Jr by mistake. Wassup Nate!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
It was me. I didn't say it for any other reason than TWI teaches that you can place Jesus above God and be an idolater. Not true, just typical anti-Christ garbage from them. But like I said, it wasn't relative to anything you posted.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I’m in category #3 …as a high school class clown I used to have foreign characters in my repertoire sounding like someone from Russia, China , Africa, and New York - NY was easy since I grew up there
…but seriously at session 12 I just jumped into my high school foreign student schtick cuz it felt natural to do that - some old habits never die 
Edited by T-BoneTypo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I just find that for me personally JCNG supposedly handles the edge case scriptures regarding Christs deity or equality status with God the Father but in reality falls flat on its face with questionable scripture interpretation that 100% smacks of proving a personal theory in scripture with a mallet and shoehorn.
Fitting a square peg into a round hole by carving.
A workman who needs to be ashamed of the BS lazy tactics utilized in his workmanship, leading thousands to delusion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Spot on.
Personally the way I was led into tongues was a friend who went to an Oral Robert’s stadium meeting and brought home teachings. Ironically a different year from VP faking his way on stage at another one of those. But the guy just taught me a couple things we prayed and then it flowed naturally.
I later attended another one of Orals offerings or one of his kids. They don’t really do any of the evangelist style tent meetings or stadium meetings made famous by Steve Martin in Leap of Faith any more. I remember it was encouraging and inspiring.
When I got into the Way I liked the detail on the manifestations but didn’t really question the whole package taught and lived and what the fruit was.
Today I just pray and it goes back and forth and who cares but God hears and knows. And like Corinthians says without love it is more cowbell only lol
In a space of silence in an extended prayer meeting I may be inspired to bring forth a message where there is tongues. Or not. Or what we called in twig prophecy.
But the format of controlling Maggie Muggins in the name of controlling the flow of a meeting is repulsive. It’s more about the control than about the power shown or the message.
That produces elevator music Christianity.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.