So, Wierwille dies and goes to Heaven. St. Peter meets him at the gate. As he begins to enter, St. Peter leans in and whispers in his ear, "I've been waiting for you. I need to a ask you a question... What does this verse in Ephesians mean?"
I was reviewing some posts I made in doctrinal thread Trinity – asset of liability?and some other threads where I addressed the Trinity topic – thought I’d repost some of them here…The reason I’m posting them here on this thread is because I got to reflect on something that occurred to me today while watching David Jeremiah preach on TV.
And he wasn’t teaching on anything about the Trinity – I just happened to take note of him “changing” his reference when transitioning from talking about Jesus Christ on the day of the ascension and then later when God comes back to gather us for the rapture. What immediately popped up in my mind was that part in PFAL when wierwille gets all enthused about Christ’s return in book of Rev and says when He comes back as Lord of lords, and King of kings…as God Almighty He’s going to knock some ear-balls together.
I also recall the many times I’ve sat through PFAL during that part (I think I stayed awake for that part - I liked watching wierwille's ears and tie go up and down when he talked excitedly ) and afterwards a newer grad might ask ,“I thought you said Jesus Christ was not God”. And sometimes – if a corps person was running the class they might intercede by saying “it was a slip of the tongue by the teacher – he gets so excited over this stuff.” Which could have been true – but also the class was filmed in 1967 – maybe wierwille hadn’t become so adamant that Jesus Christ was not God ( the copyright on my copy of JCNG is 1975) – I don’t know…maybe it was a slip of the tongue…but anyway I got to thinking today of a lot of the deep topics and concepts in Christianity…
if I were God Almighty omniscient, omnipresent, sovereign, inhabiting eternity, etcetera ad infinitum – what would it be like trying to convey my thoughts to a mere mortal with limited intelligence trapped in specific spacetime coordinates…Maybe it’s because we are thus limited that God must use easy references that we can comprehend.
Imagine a secret agent movie – I’m meeting with God at an Italian restaurant in Manhattan and discussing our mission to retrieve the arc of the covenant that was stolen and is now in enemy hands – He says He knows exactly where it is because He sees it there even as we speak.
Hmmmmm...it's beyond me why God can't just raise His Holy Hands and bring it to the restaurant “booms-quick” like when Thor calls his hammer...I mean Thor is just the God of Thunder ...but anyway – He says to meet Him tomorrow night at exactly 8 PM and DON’T BE LATE by the arc de triumph in France. Harrison Ford will meet us there too - he'll bring a few bullwhips with which I’ll wraparound certain small protrusions to climb to the top and retrieve the arc of the covenant...with God on our side we should be able to whip the enemy - metaphorically speaking of course
Wow we're dealing with one sneaky enemy – hiding the arc in plain sight – arc on arc…anyway…the next day I catch an international flight from JFK airport to Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport – I’m at the arc de triumph by 7:45 PM – and the whole operation goes smoothly without a hitch.
If God works in partnership with us, He’ll have to give us instructions that we can relate to in the spacetime continuum. Not because He’s limited – but because we are.
Trinity or no Trinity that is the question. Theology is the study of the nature of God and religious belief. Usually there’s simple worded topics to sum up really big themes. Like hamartiology – it comes from the Greek word hamartos meaning sin. Hamartiology, therefore, is the study of sin. From a biblical perspective, the study includes how sin was introduced into the world, how it impacts the world today, the solution to the sin problem of humanity, the judgment of sin, and the removal of sin at the end of time. The term soteriology comes from two Greek terms, namely, soter meaning “savior” or “deliverer” and logos meaning “word,” “matter,” or “thing.” In Christian systematic theology it is used to refer to the study of the biblical doctrine of salvation. I have several systematic theologies – some will mention the Trinity in passing when trying to explain the attributes of God or when touching on the inexpressible interrelationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I got to thinking about this absent Christ? thread – with a similar issue of trying to comprehend that Christ is here but He’s also coming back for the Gathering Together and the book of Revelation.
There’s a lot of crazy stuff to mull over…thought I repost some of my posts on other threads that got into transcendence, immanence, and how we tend to underestimate the incomprehensible.
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2. “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.” chapter and verse please...An idol is an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship…How do you know what God intended? Colossians 1: 15 – 20 seems to express the opposite of what you say. It speaks of the supremacy of Christ, and note in Colossians 1:15 it starts off by saying Christ is the image (“eikon” in Greek text) of the invisible God. We get our English word “icon” from that. In computer science icon is a graphic symbol (usually a simple picture) that denotes a program, command, or a data file in a graphical user interface – like when you click on the icon for your browser – that enables you to connect to the Internet. Christ is in effect - God's icon - because Christ represents exactly what God is like . Christ is how we connect to the Father John 14:6 . Everything we come to know and experience through Jesus Christ deepens our appreciation of the compassion and forgiveness of our heavenly Father John 14:9
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3. And let’s take into account WHEN the New Testament documents were written. (see Dating the Bible and chronology of Jesus ) . Since most of them were written well after Jesus Christ ascended into heaven – we see the huge learning curve of what the disciples thought of Jesus Christ, when comparing the simple narratives of the Gospels and Acts with the more “cerebral” epistles.
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4. In the Gospels the closest that comes to such big ideas about Christ is in John 1 (but then again most scholars say it was written between 90 and 110 AD – that is many years after Jesus Christ ascended) and like I said above, time-wise this reflects a very mature development of their faith and understanding of Christ. As a literary device John 1 is a fascinating prologue which serves to give the reader important information from the past that will have bearing on the future in the text that follows. It establishes the setting and introduces the protagonist and themes of the story.
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5. Referring to Jesus Christ as the Logos is a big deal…even a secular source like Wiki recognizes the divinely profound implication: “The Gospel of John identifies the Christian Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos), and further identifies Jesus Christ as the incarnate Logos.” From : Wiki - The Logos . There is so much information available on the Logos I will decline to get into it here – for those interested in a small sample of what I’ve looked into you can check out my profile, section # 12 I'll have a double Kool-Aid and make it dirty - and don’t let the section title throw you – my notes on the Logos is one of the many rebuttals to wierwille’s twisted theology, logical fallacies and slipshod interpretation of Scripture…if you manage to stay awake through my “dissertation-esque” review of a few scholarly works zzzzZZZZzzzZZZzzz I’d be happy to discuss the rich historical and philosophical significance of the Logos...we would have to have some common ground of definitions or concepts of The Trinity ...we'd probably make more headway than rehashing the same old worn out angry tirades of fluff and absurdity grounded in wierwille-isms – but I warn you if you resort to the same old wooden interpretations / proof texting of wierwille’s – I’ll probably find some excuse to bow out and watch God’s Favorite Idiot on Netflix
…any PFAL grads reading this – please consider the nifty sleight-of-thought wierwille pulled off in the class – after his screwy redefinition of the Greek word pros in John 1:1 – he said it means “together with yet distinctly independent of” so far okay even though it’s a really clunky way to convey the idea of actually being in close proximity which is how it’s defined in Koine Greek.
But then with the ease of a double-talking used car salesman wierwille goes on to say the ONLY WAY Jesus Christ could have been together with yet distinctly independent of God in the beginning was in the foreknowledge of God… huh? This idea of Jesus Christ was in the mind of God – and yet that idea was distinctly independent of God? Was God manifesting a huge personality split? or are we talking astral projection? just doesn’t make sense… and again I ask the simple question - can anyone provide the chapter and verse to support the idea that pros in John 1:1 means in the beginning Christ was ONLY IN GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE ?
One theologian said of pros: The preposition John uses here is quite revealing. It is the Greek word pros. It means “to be in company with someone”1 or to be “face-to-face.” It speaks of communion, interaction, fellowship. Remember that this is an eternal fellowship, a timeless relationship. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. See John 1:1 meaning and translation .
If I may beg the court’s indulgence one more time by referencing my first post on this thread > here – under point # 7 where I tried to express some of how I understand the Trinity “ For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence.” Not there nor anywhere outside this thread have I ever said I think Jesus Christ the Son of God is the same as or identical to God the Father. That may be how YOU mischaracterize the doctrine of the Trinity. That’s YOUR problem and NOT mine.
And as far as the greater works of John 14:12 I don’t think Jesus meant greater works referring to power but in SCOPE. Believers would become witnesses to ALL THE WORLD through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit – reaffirmed by his words in Acts 1:8.
I’m far from being an expert or a dyed-in-the-wool Trinitarian but I don’t see the alleged problem you’re talking about. A note on I Corinthians 15:28, page 2076 from The NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible does a far better job of squaring away everyone’s role in the future: "The Son himself will be made subject. The subordination of the Son to the Father is not one of divinity or dignity but one of function: God the Father is supreme, not subject to anyone; Jesus the Son, fully divine, carries out the Father’s will; the Spirit (not mentioned here) communicates the reality of God’s presence, truth, and salvation."
End of excerpt
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I had touched on this idea in my very first post on this thread ( my first post on this thread ) under point # 7 where I said:
“For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence.”
“The Trinity” is a short and simple way of referring to the intertwining functionality of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Of course that’s just my opinion – I could be wrong.
Speaking of Einstein’s general theory of relativity I read something interesting that gets into multidimensional universes in Beyond Einstein > https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Einstein-Cosmic-Theory-Universe/dp/0385477813( I think it’s not a bad thing to reevaluate one’s theology periodically – maybe take a cue from science how scientists are periodically revising what is known of the world around us - anyway ...) ( Some highlights from pages 11 and 12 ) author Michio says in the late 1920’s Einstein’s general theory of relativity provided the best explanation of how our universe began. According to Einstein’s theory, the universe was born approximately 10 to 20 billion years ago in a gigantic explosion called the Big Bang.
However, Michio goes on to say there were many gaps in Einstein’s theory. Why did the universe explode? What happened before the Big Bang? Theologians as well as scientists for years have realized the incompleteness of the Big Bang theory, because it fails to explain the origin and nature of the Big Bang itself. Incredibly, the superstring theory predicts what happened before the Big Bang. According to superstrings, the universe originally existed in 10 dimensions, not the 4 dimensions (3 space and 1 time) of today…However, Michio states because the universe was unstable in 10 dimensions, it “cracked” into 2 pieces, with a small, 4-dimensional universe peeling off from the rest of the universe…If this theory is true Michio says then it means that our universe actually has a “sister universe” that coexists with our universe. According to Michio, the superstring theory explains the Big Bang as a by-product of a much more violent transition – the cracking of the 10-dimensional universe into two pieces…
…Maybe theology is somewhat like the work of theoretical physicists. We look at the given data – the text – scripture – and try to piece together some ideas of an invisible world. Where is heaven? What is heaven? What is a spiritual being? If there was a 10-dimensional universe and it split into 2 – is that now the natural world and supernatural world? Don’t know. It's a lot of theoryThis stuff is fascinating and fun to think about though…
…I read The Trivialization of God > https://www.amazon.com/Trivialization-God-Dangerous-Illusion-Manageable/dp/0891099093awhile back. Flipping through my copy I picked out a couple of highlighted notes that relate to this thread. On pages 16 & 17, author McCullough speaks of how the scientific revolution tended to shove aside the mysterious…flattening transcendence into measurable data. He goes on to say in place of God, we now have control and explanation…I might add with PFAL we got an extra delusional dose – we were taught the law of believing would give us actual control over reality. Yes ! a manageable reality.
The book covers a lot of ground but another page struck me as something I could relate to while in TWI. On page 141 McCullough talks about understanding holiness as ethical behavior trivializes it into moralism. When we lose sight of the religious or spiritual dimension – the sense of being separate unto God – we flatten the transcendent into a horizontal code of regulated behavior – turns the Christian life into something safe and manageable – insulated from God; the rod of legalism deflects the lightning shock of the holy God…
And I think humility should always be the flexible frame of our thoughts. I think scientists for the most part may be a bunch of very humble folks. Science is always revising what we know of the physical world, with more and more accurate testing equipment always improving on the scientific method - observation and experimentation. My personal theology focuses more on the raw biblical data - and I tend to let that inform my theology; granted there's a lot of fuzzy areas - but I'm ok with that.
Getting back to God’s foreknowledge – I think to some degree we all make adjustments in our thinking in order to make sense of certain passages. The Scriptures were written by human authors yet they are supposed to be the very words of God. There’s the matter of trying to resolve passages showing Jesus’ humanity with verses that convey his deity. Another one is the sovereignty of God versus man’s freedom of will. I am sorry to cop out on you all but I do not – I cannot - offer any words of wisdom on any of this.
I choose to accept both sides of the biblical data as true. I’m not saying the issues can’t be resolved but given the situation as I see it (trying to wrap my mind around God) it is definitely a fun pursuit but will never be accomplished. Like the story of Augustine and the Seashell: he saw a boy scooping up the shore’s water in a seashell and carrying it to a small hole in the sand – Augustine asked the boy what he was doing and he replied he was bringing the entire sea into the hole.
Yes! I get the tie in to this thread - using wierwille’s method of defining – lambano – ballo – throw the ball…yes!
Jesus in The Big Lebowski is pointing at the Dude – who abides – and Jesus is standing in a bowling alley – that’s right up his alley -which means it suits him perfectly – Jesus abides – he is not absent – he lives there – he lives in other places too – probably in a bowling alley near you.
How or why did wierwille come up with the idea that “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”? We may never know – only guess…But giving him the benefit of a doubt on motive - we can at least observe the unintended consequences. Why did he relegate the Gospels to the Old Testament and exalt the importance of the epistles? Don’t know that either.
I also thought about his anti-Trinity campaign with the book JCING and in general ranting from the preacher’s pulpit. I do wonder about the significance of all that. It seemed like more of a galvanizing and polarizing gimmick to tighten up the ranks…I would think if he really wanted to have outsiders – mainstream Christianity – give a listen he should have made it more palatable – don’t come on so strong – don’t be iconoclastic…go for the soft-sell of gentle persuasion.
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Religion is usually defined as a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, beliefs, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that generally relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements; however, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. Different religions may or may not contain various elements ranging from the divine, sacred things, faith, a supernatural being or supernatural beings or "some sort of ultimacy and transcendence that will provide norms and power for the rest of life"
I was thinking metaphorically - a true vacuum cannot exist – so if wierwille removed…trivialized…marginalized Jesus Christ in his creed – what filled that void? Well, we all know it was “the Word” – i.e., wierwille’s unique interpretation AND interpolation of the Bible…so what really is the harm in “removing” or minimizing Jesus Christ’s significance…centrality…importance to Christianity?
I got to thinking about the religious beliefs of Old Testament believers. Consider the first 2 commandments inExodus 20:
You shall have no other gods before meandYou shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them…I imagine myself as an Israelite back then hearing the dictates of Exodus 20…and me being the anal-retentive person that I am – I would have to ask do you have anything a little more concrete I can go on than an invisible God?I mean - how can I know whenI have another god blocking my view of this God if I can’t see where he is?
Seduction by idolatry is not that unusual if you think about it…worship…adoration…love of anyone or anything begins in the heart.
New International Version “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all?Ezekiel 14:3
The sneaky thing about having an idol in my heart is that no one will know it’s there – maybe not even me. I think about how much I idolized wierwille. I went into the way corps because I wanted to become a spiritually strong believer like I thought he was. When it comes right down to it – I know an idol – whether one in the heart or an actual physical thing - is nothing – it’s merely a focal point that centers our attention. Usually, it’s about some promise of power that seduces us…we see it as a means to get what we want…If I take the Advanced Class, I’ll learn how to do signs miracles and wonders just like wierwille is always talking about.
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I got to thinking about the first two commandments – and perhaps it was God’s genius plan to provide us with an appropriate alternative - so we wouldn’t be tempted to make an image in the form of anything in heaven, on the earth or in the waters below…reflect on the significance of excerpts from John 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind… The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth…No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
…The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him…
I’ve heard preachers refer to Jesus Christ as God with skin on. I know they’re not speaking literally – it’s an indirect Scripture reference toJohn 14:9Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father…seems like a simple enough concept to understand. Jesus Christ thought and acted so much like his Father he could say that.
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So…taking the primary figure of Christianity – who is Jesus Christ- out of the center - what are you left with? What fills that void? Well, if you absorbed what wierwille said - the Word takes the place of the absent Christ – then metaphorically, you have filled that empty space with “the Word”. What is “the Word”?It’s whatever wierwille taught us it was. 4 crucified is the Word of God…Scripture interprets itselfis how “the Word” is made known unto you – and remember it must not contradict whatever else wierwille said on that or any other subject.
Another bad consequence - wierwille’spseudo-Christianity was more intellectual than emotional. The full title of In His Steps by Charles Sheldon is In His Steps - What Would Jesus Do?That’s a very compelling directive!
But with wierwille – he’d say stuff like “what does the Word say?”which somehow mutated in the typical TWI-mindset to mean “what would wierwille think of my situation?” It neutralized sympathy and empathy which are very effective ways to really connect with others.
I’ve mentioned before on Grease Spot Café that in a practical sense - what difference does it make if one Christian believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ and another Christian doesn’t? If Jesus Christ is truly Lord to both Christians – there should be no difference in how they live out their faith.
If it was such a no-no to think of Jesus Christ as divine...as God or if there was such a risk of falling into idolatry by having our attention focused so much on Jesus Christ – I would think there would be clearly stated conditions and rules in the New Testament…hey listen, I’m not one of wierwille’s mischaracterizations - - a possessed illogical Trinitarian – cuz I know the "pecking order" of the Trinity:
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
I'm not saying I understand it...I don't try to explain it...don't know exactly how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit relate to each other and to me...I'm okay with that...I'm not one to put God in a box.
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If you ask me, an unintended consequence for many wierwille-followers was being seduced into adoring him as God’s spokesperson on earth who could do no wrong. I know it sounds crazy, but it’s like wierwille takes the place of the most important part of the Christian faith!
An interesting concept I was thinking of recently with respect to he trinity doctrine is Schrödinger’s cat experiment.
The cat is placed in a sealed box you can’t see into. The box has a radioactive isotope a mallet and a vial of poison. There is a 50% chance at any given moment that the isotope will decay causing the hammer to hit the vial and the cat to die.
So from the outside perspective the cat is both alive and dead. You can’t know which outside of opening the box. Opening the box causes your perspective to synch up with the cat at a given time so it will have one exact state upon observation.
I look at the Godhead like this. There are three distinct natures all true at the same time. The act of human observation and interaction causes the manifestation of one of those states.
So in other words Christ is both there and not there at the same time.
And the trinity is both true and not true at the same time similarly.
Does this make sense? Or is the concept too far stretched to conceive?
An interesting concept I was thinking of recently with respect to he trinity doctrine is Schrödinger’s cat experiment.
The cat is placed in a sealed box you can’t see into. The box has a radioactive isotope a mallet and a vial of poison. There is a 50% chance at any given moment that the isotope will decay causing the hammer to hit the vial and the cat to die.
So from the outside perspective the cat is both alive and dead. You can’t know which outside of opening the box. Opening the box causes your perspective to synch up with the cat at a given time so it will have one exact state upon observation.
I look at the Godhead like this. There are three distinct natures all true at the same time. The act of human observation and interaction causes the manifestation of one of those states.
So in other words Christ is both there and not there at the same time.
And the trinity is both true and not true at the same time similarly.
Does this make sense? Or is the concept too far stretched to conceive?
it makes about as much sense as anything else I've heard to explain God, The Trinity, the "physicality" of the spiritual realm...You posted a very interesting You Tube on the Schrödinger’s cat experiment - in determinism/free will thread I think...thought-provoking stuff...same with getting into quantum twin, superstring theory, the duality of light - it's a wave/it's a particle, etc.
I like hearing about this kind of stuff - so thanks - reminds me of how much I don't know and will probably never understand in this life.
it makes about as much sense as anything else I've heard to explain God, The Trinity, the "physicality" of the spiritual realm...You posted a very interesting You Tube on the Schrödinger’s cat experiment - in determinism/free will thread I think...thought-provoking stuff...same with getting into quantum twin, superstring theory, the duality of light - it's a wave/it's a particle, etc.
I like hearing about this kind of stuff - so thanks - reminds me of how much I don't know and will probably never understand in this life.
Yeah me too. I figured if wave particle theory is something physicists can come up with by examining the creations behavior then certainly a dual natured Christ is not a stretch at all. Similarly that Schrodinger cat video lays out possibilities.
I just think the deterministic absolutes that were taught regarding JCNG is just another form of mind limiting bondage.
In truth Jesus Christ catalyzes everything spiritually.
I've only read the first page of this thread and I'll probably share more later but the phrase that still "haunts" me is "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word." Maybe this has already been mentioned previously - I don't know. It's not just the words in the phrase I remember but also how emphatically VP would say them, often with him holding the Bible up in the air. As a result, I spent hundreds of hours studying the Word, reading what was said about the Word, listening to tapes about the Word... during my time in the ministry (1974-1986) BUT I had spent next to no time in a relationship with Jesus. Even after leaving the ministry, I continued on this "intellectual" journey but an emptiness was always there.
I've spent a couple of weeks on various GS forums, but the mention of Jesus on this first page was emotional for me to read. Thank you for sharing on this topic.
I was in during the same time period and was left with the same disappointment from a cold clinical approach to Christianity. Are we twins? Actually a lot of folks were let down like that.
Good points. vpw was unable to teach us about a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus.
Why? Here's a few reasons.
1) vpw didn't view relationships or people like we do- he viewed them as resources. So, actual relationships with caring- as opposed to business relationships - were beyond him.
2) vpw largely faked his way through the ministry. He learned the proper gestures and mannerisms, how to bow his head in prayer and so on. he learned to deliver speeches in a convincing manner. He learned how to cut corners by taking the work of others and presenting it as his own, either in written form or as a preacher, preaching someone else's work as his own. He picked the soft options in school and skipped church history and languages (that's why his grasp of Bible languages was so weak.) So, he learned to parrot back the works of others. The deeper matters- unless he had someone to directly quote- were not things he could speak on, so he avoided them.
3) vpw didn't want us to have a relationship with Jesus. vpw wanted us to have a business relationship with him and twi, where he sells the things of God, the prayers, the classes, etc, and everyone else pays tuition, tithes, etc. Not convinced? Ok, answer this: how many denominations or church groups out there teach to consistently give MORE than the tithe? vpw taught it and gave it a name- "abundant sharing." Followup question: how many denominations or church groups out there teach that you can separate what money you need to live on right now, and should give all of the rest to the church? vpw taught that, and gave it a name- "plurality giving." For that matter, he made the tithe a mandatory 10% and a necessity, where the Bible says we are NOT supposed to give "of necessity"- which means, once again, vpw taught the opposite of the Bible on a subject.
I've only read the first page of this thread and I'll probably share more later but the phrase that still "haunts" me is "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word." Maybe this has already been mentioned previously - I don't know. It's not just the words in the phrase I remember but also how emphatically VP would say them, often with him holding the Bible up in the air. As a result, I spent hundreds of hours studying the Word, reading what was said about the Word, listening to tapes about the Word... during my time in the ministry (1974-1986) BUT I had spent next to no time in a relationship with Jesus. Even after leaving the ministry, I continued on this "intellectual" journey but an emptiness was always there.
I've spent a couple of weeks on various GS forums, but the mention of Jesus on this first page was emotional for me to read. Thank you for sharing on this topic.
Hiyas! Glad to hear our discussion is helpful to others, thats really cool!
For me, my entire perspective changed on everything in life when I realized that Christ wasn't absent and that he can be a very interactive Lord with each individual in his body, depending on relationship. The book of Acts really shows Jesus interaction with his Church, not exclusively, but its a common thread. He is the head and where he directs is where we go, figuratively, literally etc....just paraphrasing scripture really. Hope to see ya around!
3) vpw didn't want us to have a relationship with Jesus. vpw wanted us to have a business relationship with him and twi, where he sells the things of God, the prayers, the classes, etc, and everyone else pays tuition, tithes, etc. Not convinced? Ok, answer this: how many denominations or church groups out there teach to consistently give MORE than the tithe? vpw taught it and gave it a name- "abundant sharing." Followup question: how many denominations or church groups out there teach that you can separate what money you need to live on right now, and should give all of the rest to the church? vpw taught that, and gave it a name- "plurality giving." For that matter, he made the tithe a mandatory 10% and a necessity, where the Bible says we are NOT supposed to give "of necessity"- which means, once again, vpw taught the opposite of the Bible on a subject.
Ive never given too much thought to wierwilles lust for posessions as a driving factor to pull people away from the real Jesus Christ and not the imaginary, namesake only, absent one. One reason for that with me is I tend to try and seperate the person from what they said when it comes to most issues, appareantly to a fault at times. But now that you mention it!
Wordwolf, you are well aware of what I am going to add, so not telling you anything new here but putting this out there just for the record.
Plurality giving was expanded somewhere along the line to include not only your money but anyTHING you happen to have that you can give as well. This sort of thinking primes the pump to keep operating costs at minimum. Followers feel obligated to open their homes for classes and to allow all that extra wear and tear on that knock off furniture because they can't afford much more due to giving their money away to TWI. Its sad really. They convince you by slowly moving the boundaries to open it all and give it away. Con artistry at it's finest.
Also too, as Wordwolf noted we arent required to give of necissity and the tithe was intituted and given so the Levites could live because they dedicated themselves to the temple. The mandatory tithe is done away in Christ. Just to make it extremely clear for those who may stumble at what hes saying.
T-Bone wrote: “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.”chapter and verse please...
T-Bone wrote: “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.”chapter and verse please...
For me, the teaching that Jesus Christ is not God tied in with how Christ eventually became absent in my life.In the past, I had observed how trinity-believing Christians used each name (Jesus and God) interchangeably in their teachings and prayers (often within the same sentence).They gave God and Jesus the same amount of recognition and adoration.
When I stopped believing in the deity of Christ while in the way, these believers became “idolaters” who were breaking God’s commandment of having no other gods before Him (Deut 5:7).Since I didn’t want to be an idolater like them (no way, no how), I began to prioritize God above Jesus in my spiritual life.Over time, this exalting of God and demoting of Jesus led to having the absent Christ.
After that, when I would read verses like Col 2:6,7 “Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him,7having been firmly rooted and now are being built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, overflowing with thankfulness,” I gave mental assent to them only – yeah, yeah, yeah. It's apparent to me now how insidiously the adversary worked within the way ministry to negate verses like these which clearly declare the importance of Jesus in our lives right now.
WordWolf wrote: vpw was unable to teach us about a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus
The first time I went to a fellowship at the Vineyard church in my city, their worship team of musicians and singers sang “Holy and Anointed One.”Most of the people there sang along with their eyes closed, their hands lifted up and their faces showing their love for Jesus.I found myself not even being able to mouth the words without crying my eyes out.Never had I sang a song “to” Jesus before – only about him.I knew the tears were coming from a deep (but buried) longing to experience his love.
I have tried to copy and paste the website for this song but it doesn’t come up when you click on it.If, however, you want to google “holy and anointed song” and pick the shortest version, you can hear it.If you do, can you imagine vp doing the same as the believers did in that fellowship (eyes closed, hands lifted up, face showing a love for Jesus)? Impossible. He would never humble himself enough to do so.
OldSkool wrote:For me, my entire perspective changed on everything in life when I realized that Christ wasn't absent and that he can be a very interactive Lord with each individual in his body, depending on relationship.
Recently, when my heart's perspective does begin to shift from an absent Christ to a present Christ, I find I become very emotional.It’s like something inside me wants me to experience these truths (not just think of them) but the strong reaction I feel is so intense that I shut down.
The reason for this is most likely past childhood trauma which led to a lifetime of self-loathing and feelings of unworthiness. I have tried (and failed) many times to deal with these through counseling, self-help books and my involvement in the way. I feel now however that it is something Jesus is going to have do for me.So this is where I’m at right now – talking to him.
T-Bone wrote: “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.”chapter and verse please...
T-Bone wrote: “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.”chapter and verse please...
For me, the teaching that Jesus Christ is not God tied in with how Christ eventually became absent in my life.In the past, I had observed how trinity-believing Christians used each name (Jesus and God) interchangeably in their teachings and prayers (often within the same sentence).They gave God and Jesus the same amount of recognition and adoration.
When I stopped believing in the deity of Christ while in the way, these believers became “idolaters” who were breaking God’s commandment of having no other gods before Him (Deut 5:7).Since I didn’t want to be an idolater like them (no way, no how), I began to prioritize God above Jesus in my spiritual life.Over time, this exalting of God and demoting of Jesus led to having the absent Christ.
After that, when I would read verses like Col 2:6,7 “Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him,7having been firmly rooted and now are being built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, overflowing with thankfulness,” I gave mental assent to them only – yeah, yeah, yeah. It's apparent to me now how insidiously the adversary worked within the way ministry to negate verses like these which clearly declare the importance of Jesus in our lives right now.
Hey Charity welcome!
When I first was born again which was as a young person before TWI, I felt a deep need for not only a Savior but a Lord in my life. Because I wasn’t strong enough or smart enough on my own to feel I could handle it. So I became born again.
Tracing it back it was teachings like you mention about the absolute error of JCNG and the trinity that really closed my mind off as well to considering the rest of the brothers and sisters as members in the body of Christ. Instead the doctrinal error led me to denigrate and discount my Christian brethren.
Today I am not a hard core Trinitarian looking to argue. I love my Lord and Savior and learn more in that relationship daily as my hard head permits.
OldSkool wrote:For me, my entire perspective changed on everything in life when I realized that Christ wasn't absent and that he can be a very interactive Lord with each individual in his body, depending on relationship.
Recently, when my heart's perspective does begin to shift from an absent Christ to a present Christ, I find I become very emotional.It’s like something inside me wants me to experience these truths (not just think of them) but the strong reaction I feel is so intense that I shut down.
The reason for this is most likely past childhood trauma which led to a lifetime of self-loathing and feelings of unworthiness. I have tried (and failed) many times to deal with these through counseling, self-help books and my involvement in the way. I feel now however that it is something Jesus is going to have do for me.So this is where I’m at right now – talking to him.
The Lord Jesus Christ is with you this moment. A personal relationship involves emotions, not going over your SIT chart for the past month to determine if you are good enough to operate other “manifestations”.
Oh and it’s not blasphemy to talk to Him either.
The deity of Christ was discussed much and written about much in the first century after Christs ascension. The Christians in that century all agreed and only one rogue author disagreed. I think he shows up in VPs book of course.
Question the foundations we were taught. I mean VP said if you can’t trust them on 4 crucified how can you regarding the new birth?
So lately I’ve been seeing what works from the opposite perspective. 4 crucified is BS manipulation of harmony of the gospels about details that matter little. And VP does some shuffling around of languages there mostly to look like he is an expert in languages which he was far from.
I can’t trust the flim flammery there so I’m sure that I can’t trust it in the weightier matters of the spirit the new birth and worship.
I feel now however that it is something Jesus is going to have do for me.So this is where I’m at right now – talking to him.
Absolutely. Give it to the Lord and rest in comfort knowing that he will lead you as your Lord in these areas. BTW - It's impossible to elevate Jesus Christ above God because It's God who has highly exalted him. Wierwille and TWI shooed us away from the book of Revelation with the rather ridicoulous notion that it's not written to us, but to some group in another administration - lies! Im posting these verses because it's the most descriptive illustration we see in scripture of our Lord after the ascension. I know that much of the language is figurative...but it's not figurative to somehow downplay Christ's glory, it's the opposite. He is so glorious in his ascended state that only figurative language will do in this description.
Revelation 1:10-18
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
The "marginalize Jesus" thing in twi was never as successful for me as they would have liked. I knew full well what it meant to make Jesus my Lord.
That meant I had sworn fealty to him, and he was my sovereign.
That's a relationship also- where the subject gives loyalty and service to the monarch, and in turn the monarch watches out for the subject.
No matter how little we spoke about him, I was still clear he was my lord and I was his vassal.
To some people this is obvious, to others, it's unusual and an introduction to the idea. So, if God passes the order to Jesus who passes it to me, or God passes it directly, or they both pass it directly because they're the same being, in practice it works out the same.
As suggested on this website, I started to read the gospel of John this evening in order to get to know Jesus and how he lived.John 5:23 really stood out because it related to my earlier post of today about Christians I knew in the past who worshiped both Jesus and God equally because of their belief in the trinity, and how I instead began to exalt God much, much higher than Jesus because of my belief that Jesus was not God and my desire not to be an "idolater" like them.
God the father and Jesus the son (not God the son) are both to be equally honored (respected, esteemed, admired).What peace this brings to anyone who wants to build a relationship with Jesus such as moi! (that’s “me” in French). I'm Canadian by the way.
Chockfull wrote:The Lord Jesus Christ is with you this moment. A personal relationship involves emotions, not going over your SIT chart for the past month to determine if you are good enough to operate other “manifestations”.
Was there really such a thing as a SIT chart that you had to keep to see if you were good enough to operate the other “manifestations?”How does one even keep such a chart?Were you expected to record every time you SIT throughout the day and how long each time lasted?Mind-blowing – not in an impressive way but in a dynamite-exploding way.
I don’t know if anyone can relate to this but one of the strong emotions I had when I first began to read the posts about Jesus on the “absent Christ” thread was fear.It was like a “Danger! Danger!” alarm going off in my head so I just shut down.I think building a trust in Jesus will quiet the fear so I can freely accept his love.
I love listening to Christian songs especially one by Lauren Daigle called “Peace be Still.” She is referring to what Jesus said to the sea after he arose and rebuked the wind but in the song, she is singing about Jesus quieting our fears.Some of the lyrics are:
I don't want to be afraid
Every time I face the waves
I don't want to be afraid
I don't want to be afraid
I don't want to fear the storm
Just because I hear it roar
I don't want to fear the storm
I don't want to fear the storm
Peace be still
Say the word and I will
Set my feet upon the sea
Till I'm dancing in the deep (I like this line because I love to dance)
Peace be still
You are here so it is well
Even when my eyes can't see
I will trust the voice that speaks
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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waysider
So, Wierwille dies and goes to Heaven. St. Peter meets him at the gate. As he begins to enter, St. Peter leans in and whispers in his ear, "I've been waiting for you. I need to a ask you a question... What does this verse in Ephesians mean?"
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T-Bone
maybe half-off topic
I was reviewing some posts I made in doctrinal thread Trinity – asset of liability? and some other threads where I addressed the Trinity topic – thought I’d repost some of them here…The reason I’m posting them here on this thread is because I got to reflect on something that occurred to me today while watching David Jeremiah preach on TV.
And he wasn’t teaching on anything about the Trinity – I just happened to take note of him “changing” his reference when transitioning from talking about Jesus Christ on the day of the ascension and then later when God comes back to gather us for the rapture. What immediately popped up in my mind was that part in PFAL when wierwille gets all enthused about Christ’s return in book of Rev and says when He comes back as Lord of lords, and King of kings…as God Almighty He’s going to knock some ear-balls together.
I also recall the many times I’ve sat through PFAL during that part (I think I stayed awake for that part - I liked watching wierwille's ears and tie go up and down when he talked excitedly
) and afterwards a newer grad might ask ,“I thought you said Jesus Christ was not God”. And sometimes – if a corps person was running the class they might intercede by saying “it was a slip of the tongue by the teacher – he gets so excited over this stuff.” Which could have been true – but also the class was filmed in 1967 – maybe wierwille hadn’t become so adamant that Jesus Christ was not God ( the copyright on my copy of JCNG is 1975) – I don’t know…maybe it was a slip of the tongue…but anyway I got to thinking today of a lot of the deep topics and concepts in Christianity…
if I were God Almighty omniscient, omnipresent, sovereign, inhabiting eternity, etcetera ad infinitum
– what would it be like trying to convey my thoughts to a mere mortal with limited intelligence trapped in specific spacetime coordinates…Maybe it’s because we are thus limited that God must use easy references that we can comprehend.
Imagine a secret agent movie – I’m meeting with God at an Italian restaurant in Manhattan and discussing our mission to retrieve the arc of the covenant that was stolen and is now in enemy hands – He says He knows exactly where it is because He sees it there even as we speak.
Hmmmmm...it's beyond me why God can't just raise His Holy Hands
and bring it to the restaurant “booms-quick” like when Thor calls his hammer...I mean Thor is just the God of Thunder ...but anyway – He says to meet Him tomorrow night at exactly 8 PM and DON’T BE LATE by the arc de triumph in France. Harrison Ford will meet us there too - he'll bring a few bullwhips with which I’ll wraparound certain small protrusions to climb to the top and retrieve the arc of the covenant...with God on our side we should be able to whip the enemy - metaphorically speaking of course
Wow we're dealing with one sneaky enemy – hiding the arc in plain sight – arc on arc…anyway…the next day I catch an international flight from JFK airport to Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport – I’m at the arc de triumph by 7:45 PM – and the whole operation goes smoothly without a hitch.
If God works in partnership with us, He’ll have to give us instructions that we can relate to in the spacetime continuum. Not because He’s limited – but because we are.
Trinity or no Trinity that is the question. Theology is the study of the nature of God and religious belief. Usually there’s simple worded topics to sum up really big themes. Like hamartiology – it comes from the Greek word hamartos meaning sin. Hamartiology, therefore, is the study of sin. From a biblical perspective, the study includes how sin was introduced into the world, how it impacts the world today, the solution to the sin problem of humanity, the judgment of sin, and the removal of sin at the end of time. The term soteriology comes from two Greek terms, namely, soter meaning “savior” or “deliverer” and logos meaning “word,” “matter,” or “thing.” In Christian systematic theology it is used to refer to the study of the biblical doctrine of salvation. I have several systematic theologies – some will mention the Trinity in passing when trying to explain the attributes of God or when touching on the inexpressible interrelationship of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I got to thinking about this absent Christ? thread – with a similar issue of trying to comprehend that Christ is here but He’s also coming back for the Gathering Together and the book of Revelation.
There’s a lot of crazy stuff to mull over…thought I repost some of my posts on other threads that got into transcendence, immanence, and how we tend to underestimate the incomprehensible.
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2. “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.” chapter and verse please...An idol is an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship…How do you know what God intended? Colossians 1: 15 – 20 seems to express the opposite of what you say. It speaks of the supremacy of Christ, and note in Colossians 1:15 it starts off by saying Christ is the image (“eikon” in Greek text) of the invisible God. We get our English word “icon” from that. In computer science icon is a graphic symbol (usually a simple picture) that denotes a program, command, or a data file in a graphical user interface – like when you click on the icon for your browser – that enables you to connect to the Internet. Christ is in effect - God's icon - because Christ represents exactly what God is like . Christ is how we connect to the Father John 14:6 . Everything we come to know and experience through Jesus Christ deepens our appreciation of the compassion and forgiveness of our heavenly Father John 14:9
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3. And let’s take into account WHEN the New Testament documents were written. (see Dating the Bible and chronology of Jesus ) . Since most of them were written well after Jesus Christ ascended into heaven – we see the huge learning curve of what the disciples thought of Jesus Christ, when comparing the simple narratives of the Gospels and Acts with the more “cerebral” epistles.
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4. In the Gospels the closest that comes to such big ideas about Christ is in John 1 (but then again most scholars say it was written between 90 and 110 AD – that is many years after Jesus Christ ascended) and like I said above, time-wise this reflects a very mature development of their faith and understanding of Christ. As a literary device John 1 is a fascinating prologue which serves to give the reader important information from the past that will have bearing on the future in the text that follows. It establishes the setting and introduces the protagonist and themes of the story.
~ ~ ~ ~
5. Referring to Jesus Christ as the Logos is a big deal…even a secular source like Wiki recognizes the divinely profound implication: “The Gospel of John identifies the Christian Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos), and further identifies Jesus Christ as the incarnate Logos.” From : Wiki - The Logos . There is so much information available on the Logos I will decline to get into it here – for those interested in a small sample of what I’ve looked into you can check out my profile, section # 12 I'll have a double Kool-Aid and make it dirty - and don’t let the section title throw you – my notes on the Logos is one of the many rebuttals to wierwille’s twisted theology, logical fallacies and slipshod interpretation of Scripture…if you manage to stay awake through my “dissertation-esque” review of a few scholarly works zzzzZZZZzzz ZZZzzz I’d be happy to discuss the rich historical and philosophical significance of the Logos...we would have to have some common ground of definitions or concepts of The Trinity ...we'd probably make more headway than rehashing the same old worn out angry tirades of fluff and absurdity grounded in wierwille-isms – but I warn you if you resort to the same old wooden interpretations / proof texting of wierwille’s – I’ll probably find some excuse to bow out and watch God’s Favorite Idiot on Netflix
…any PFAL grads reading this – please consider the nifty sleight-of-thought wierwille pulled off in the class – after his screwy redefinition of the Greek word pros in John 1:1 – he said it means “together with yet distinctly independent of” so far okay even though it’s a really clunky way to convey the idea of actually being in close proximity which is how it’s defined in Koine Greek.
But then with the ease of a double-talking used car salesman wierwille goes on to say the ONLY WAY Jesus Christ could have been together with yet distinctly independent of God in the beginning was in the foreknowledge of God… huh? This idea of Jesus Christ was in the mind of God – and yet that idea was distinctly independent of God? Was God manifesting a huge personality split? or are we talking astral projection? just doesn’t make sense… and again I ask the simple question - can anyone provide the chapter and verse to support the idea that pros in John 1:1 means in the beginning Christ was ONLY IN GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE ?
One theologian said of pros: The preposition John uses here is quite revealing. It is the Greek word pros. It means “to be in company with someone”1 or to be “face-to-face.” It speaks of communion, interaction, fellowship. Remember that this is an eternal fellowship, a timeless relationship. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. See John 1:1 meaning and translation .
From: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25249-the-trinity-asset-or-liability/?do=findComment&comment=615751
Trinity asset or liability June 18th 2022
~ ~ ~ ~
If I may beg the court’s indulgence one more time by referencing my first post on this thread > here – under point # 7 where I tried to express some of how I understand the Trinity “ For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence.” Not there nor anywhere outside this thread have I ever said I think Jesus Christ the Son of God is the same as or identical to God the Father. That may be how YOU mischaracterize the doctrine of the Trinity. That’s YOUR problem and NOT mine.
And as far as the greater works of John 14:12 I don’t think Jesus meant greater works referring to power but in SCOPE. Believers would become witnesses to ALL THE WORLD through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit – reaffirmed by his words in Acts 1:8.
From: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25249-the-trinity-asset-or-liability/?do=findComment&comment=615867
Trinity asset or liability June 21st 2022
~ ~ ~ ~
I’m far from being an expert or a dyed-in-the-wool Trinitarian but I don’t see the alleged problem you’re talking about. A note on I Corinthians 15:28, page 2076 from The NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible does a far better job of squaring away everyone’s role in the future:
"The Son himself will be made subject. The subordination of the Son to the Father is not one of divinity or dignity but one of function: God the Father is supreme, not subject to anyone; Jesus the Son, fully divine, carries out the Father’s will; the Spirit (not mentioned here) communicates the reality of God’s presence, truth, and salvation."
End of excerpt
~ ~ ~ ~
I had touched on this idea in my very first post on this thread ( my first post on this thread ) under point # 7 where I said:
“For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence.”
“The Trinity” is a short and simple way of referring to the intertwining functionality of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Of course that’s just my opinion – I could be wrong.
From: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25249-the-trinity-asset-or-liability/?do=findComment&comment=616211
Trinity asset or liability June 29th 2022 3:22 PM
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Speaking of Einstein’s general theory of relativity I read something interesting that gets into multidimensional universes in Beyond Einstein > https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Einstein-Cosmic-Theory-Universe/dp/0385477813 ( I think it’s not a bad thing to reevaluate one’s theology periodically – maybe take a cue from science how scientists are periodically revising what is known of the world around us - anyway ...) ( Some highlights from pages 11 and 12 ) author Michio says in the late 1920’s Einstein’s general theory of relativity provided the best explanation of how our universe began. According to Einstein’s theory, the universe was born approximately 10 to 20 billion years ago in a gigantic explosion called the Big Bang.
However, Michio goes on to say there were many gaps in Einstein’s theory. Why did the universe explode? What happened before the Big Bang? Theologians as well as scientists for years have realized the incompleteness of the Big Bang theory, because it fails to explain the origin and nature of the Big Bang itself. Incredibly, the superstring theory predicts what happened before the Big Bang. According to superstrings, the universe originally existed in 10 dimensions, not the 4 dimensions (3 space and 1 time) of today…However, Michio states because the universe was unstable in 10 dimensions, it “cracked” into 2 pieces, with a small, 4-dimensional universe peeling off from the rest of the universe…If this theory is true Michio says then it means that our universe actually has a “sister universe” that coexists with our universe. According to Michio, the superstring theory explains the Big Bang as a by-product of a much more violent transition – the cracking of the 10-dimensional universe into two pieces…
…Maybe theology is somewhat like the work of theoretical physicists. We look at the given data – the text – scripture – and try to piece together some ideas of an invisible world. Where is heaven? What is heaven? What is a spiritual being? If there was a 10-dimensional universe and it split into 2 – is that now the natural world and supernatural world? Don’t know. It's a lot of theory This stuff is fascinating and fun to think about though…
…I read The Trivialization of God > https://www.amazon.com/Trivialization-God-Dangerous-Illusion-Manageable/dp/0891099093 awhile back. Flipping through my copy I picked out a couple of highlighted notes that relate to this thread. On pages 16 & 17, author McCullough speaks of how the scientific revolution tended to shove aside the mysterious…flattening transcendence into measurable data. He goes on to say in place of God, we now have control and explanation…I might add with PFAL we got an extra delusional dose – we were taught the law of believing would give us actual control over reality. Yes ! a manageable reality.
The book covers a lot of ground but another page struck me as something I could relate to while in TWI. On page 141 McCullough talks about understanding holiness as ethical behavior trivializes it into moralism. When we lose sight of the religious or spiritual dimension – the sense of being separate unto God – we flatten the transcendent into a horizontal code of regulated behavior – turns the Christian life into something safe and manageable – insulated from God; the rod of legalism deflects the lightning shock of the holy God…
From:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23975-stfs-rev/?do=findComment&comment=578954
My post on thread STF’s REV Feb 5th 2017 11:01 PM
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And I think humility should always be the flexible frame of our thoughts. I think scientists for the most part may be a bunch of very humble folks. Science is always revising what we know of the physical world, with more and more accurate testing equipment always improving on the scientific method - observation and experimentation. My personal theology focuses more on the raw biblical data - and I tend to let that inform my theology; granted there's a lot of fuzzy areas - but I'm ok with that.
Getting back to God’s foreknowledge – I think to some degree we all make adjustments in our thinking in order to make sense of certain passages. The Scriptures were written by human authors yet they are supposed to be the very words of God. There’s the matter of trying to resolve passages showing Jesus’ humanity with verses that convey his deity. Another one is the sovereignty of God versus man’s freedom of will. I am sorry to cop out on you all but I do not – I cannot - offer any words of wisdom on any of this.
I choose to accept both sides of the biblical data as true. I’m not saying the issues can’t be resolved but given the situation as I see it (trying to wrap my mind around God) it is definitely a fun pursuit but will never be accomplished. Like the story of Augustine and the Seashell: he saw a boy scooping up the shore’s water in a seashell and carrying it to a small hole in the sand – Augustine asked the boy what he was doing and he replied he was bringing the entire sea into the hole.
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/h065rp.Shell.html
from: https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/23975-stfs-rev/?do=findComment&comment=579064
My post on thread STF’s REV Feb 9th 2017 2:31 PM
This is the completely, completely, absolutely complete end of the post…I think
Edited by T-Boneis it over? ask the pendant: yes? no? yes? no?
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chockfull
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OldSkool
Thought u meant this other Jesus...
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T-Bone
Yes! I get the tie in to this thread - using wierwille’s method of defining – lambano – ballo – throw the ball…yes!
Jesus in The Big Lebowski is pointing at the Dude – who abides – and Jesus is standing in a bowling alley – that’s right up his alley -which means it suits him perfectly – Jesus abides – he is not absent – he lives there – he lives in other places too – probably in a bowling alley near you.
Edited by T-Boneretrofit
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T-Bone
man, that's funny!
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T-Bone
How or why did wierwille come up with the idea that “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”? We may never know – only guess…But giving him the benefit of a doubt on motive - we can at least observe the unintended consequences. Why did he relegate the Gospels to the Old Testament and exalt the importance of the epistles? Don’t know that either.
I also thought about his anti-Trinity campaign with the book JCING and in general ranting from the preacher’s pulpit. I do wonder about the significance of all that. It seemed like more of a galvanizing and polarizing gimmick to tighten up the ranks…I would think if he really wanted to have outsiders – mainstream Christianity – give a listen he should have made it more palatable – don’t come on so strong – don’t be iconoclastic…go for the soft-sell of gentle persuasion.
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Religion is usually defined as a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, beliefs, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that generally relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements; however, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. Different religions may or may not contain various elements ranging from the divine, sacred things, faith, a supernatural being or supernatural beings or "some sort of ultimacy and transcendence that will provide norms and power for the rest of life"
From: Wikipedia: religion
~ ~ ~ ~
I was thinking metaphorically - a true vacuum cannot exist – so if wierwille removed…trivialized…marginalized Jesus Christ in his creed – what filled that void? Well, we all know it was “the Word” – i.e., wierwille’s unique interpretation AND interpolation of the Bible…so what really is the harm in “removing” or minimizing Jesus Christ’s significance…centrality…importance to Christianity?
I got to thinking about the religious beliefs of Old Testament believers. Consider the first 2 commandments in Exodus 20 :
You shall have no other gods before me and You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them…I imagine myself as an Israelite back then hearing the dictates of Exodus 20…and me being the anal-retentive person that I am – I would have to ask do you have anything a little more concrete I can go on than an invisible God? I mean - how can I know when I have another god blocking my view of this God if I can’t see where he is?
Seduction by idolatry is not that unusual if you think about it…worship…adoration…love of anyone or anything begins in the heart.
New International Version
“Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? Ezekiel 14:3
The sneaky thing about having an idol in my heart is that no one will know it’s there – maybe not even me. I think about how much I idolized wierwille. I went into the way corps because I wanted to become a spiritually strong believer like I thought he was. When it comes right down to it – I know an idol – whether one in the heart or an actual physical thing - is nothing – it’s merely a focal point that centers our attention. Usually, it’s about some promise of power that seduces us…we see it as a means to get what we want…If I take the Advanced Class, I’ll learn how to do signs miracles and wonders just like wierwille is always talking about.
~ ~ ~ ~
I got to thinking about the first two commandments – and perhaps it was God’s genius plan to provide us with an appropriate alternative - so we wouldn’t be tempted to make an image in the form of anything in heaven, on the earth or in the waters below…reflect on the significance of excerpts from John 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind… The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth…No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
John 1
And from Colossians:
…The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him…
Colossians 1
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I’ve heard preachers refer to Jesus Christ as God with skin on. I know they’re not speaking literally – it’s an indirect Scripture reference to John 14:9 Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father …seems like a simple enough concept to understand. Jesus Christ thought and acted so much like his Father he could say that.
~ ~ ~ ~
So…taking the primary figure of Christianity – who is Jesus Christ - out of the center - what are you left with? What fills that void? Well, if you absorbed what wierwille said - the Word takes the place of the absent Christ – then metaphorically, you have filled that empty space with “the Word”. What is “the Word”? It’s whatever wierwille taught us it was. 4 crucified is the Word of God…Scripture interprets itself is how “the Word” is made known unto you – and remember it must not contradict whatever else wierwille said on that or any other subject.
Another bad consequence - wierwille’s pseudo-Christianity was more intellectual than emotional. The full title of In His Steps by Charles Sheldon is In His Steps - What Would Jesus Do? That’s a very compelling directive!
But with wierwille – he’d say stuff like “what does the Word say?” which somehow mutated in the typical TWI-mindset to mean “what would wierwille think of my situation?” It neutralized sympathy and empathy which are very effective ways to really connect with others.
I’ve mentioned before on Grease Spot Café that in a practical sense - what difference does it make if one Christian believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ and another Christian doesn’t? If Jesus Christ is truly Lord to both Christians – there should be no difference in how they live out their faith.
If it was such a no-no to think of Jesus Christ as divine...as God or if there was such a risk of falling into idolatry by having our attention focused so much on Jesus Christ – I would think there would be clearly stated conditions and rules in the New Testament…hey listen, I’m not one of wierwille’s mischaracterizations - - a possessed illogical Trinitarian – cuz I know the "pecking order" of the Trinity:
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
I Corinthians 15
I'm not saying I understand it...I don't try to explain it...don't know exactly how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit relate to each other and to me...I'm okay with that...I'm not one to put God in a box.
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If you ask me, an unintended consequence for many wierwille-followers was being seduced into adoring him as God’s spokesperson on earth who could do no wrong. I know it sounds crazy, but it’s like wierwille takes the place of the most important part of the Christian faith!
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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chockfull
An interesting concept I was thinking of recently with respect to he trinity doctrine is Schrödinger’s cat experiment.
The cat is placed in a sealed box you can’t see into. The box has a radioactive isotope a mallet and a vial of poison. There is a 50% chance at any given moment that the isotope will decay causing the hammer to hit the vial and the cat to die.
So from the outside perspective the cat is both alive and dead. You can’t know which outside of opening the box. Opening the box causes your perspective to synch up with the cat at a given time so it will have one exact state upon observation.
I look at the Godhead like this. There are three distinct natures all true at the same time. The act of human observation and interaction causes the manifestation of one of those states.
So in other words Christ is both there and not there at the same time.
And the trinity is both true and not true at the same time similarly.
Does this make sense? Or is the concept too far stretched to conceive?
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T-Bone
it makes about as much sense as anything else I've heard to explain God, The Trinity, the "physicality" of the spiritual realm...You posted a very interesting You Tube on the Schrödinger’s cat experiment - in determinism/free will thread I think...thought-provoking stuff...same with getting into quantum twin, superstring theory, the duality of light - it's a wave/it's a particle, etc.
I like hearing about this kind of stuff - so thanks - reminds me of how much I don't know and will probably never understand in this life.
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chockfull
Yeah me too. I figured if wave particle theory is something physicists can come up with by examining the creations behavior then certainly a dual natured Christ is not a stretch at all. Similarly that Schrodinger cat video lays out possibilities.
I just think the deterministic absolutes that were taught regarding JCNG is just another form of mind limiting bondage.
In truth Jesus Christ catalyzes everything spiritually.
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Charity
I've only read the first page of this thread and I'll probably share more later but the phrase that still "haunts" me is "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word." Maybe this has already been mentioned previously - I don't know. It's not just the words in the phrase I remember but also how emphatically VP would say them, often with him holding the Bible up in the air. As a result, I spent hundreds of hours studying the Word, reading what was said about the Word, listening to tapes about the Word... during my time in the ministry (1974-1986) BUT I had spent next to no time in a relationship with Jesus. Even after leaving the ministry, I continued on this "intellectual" journey but an emptiness was always there.
I've spent a couple of weeks on various GS forums, but the mention of Jesus on this first page was emotional for me to read. Thank you for sharing on this topic.
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T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Charity !
I was in during the same time period and was left with the same disappointment from a cold clinical approach to Christianity. Are we twins?
Actually a lot of folks were let down like that.
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WordWolf
Good points. vpw was unable to teach us about a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus.
Why? Here's a few reasons.
1) vpw didn't view relationships or people like we do- he viewed them as resources. So, actual relationships with caring- as opposed to business relationships - were beyond him.
2) vpw largely faked his way through the ministry. He learned the proper gestures and mannerisms, how to bow his head in prayer and so on. he learned to deliver speeches in a convincing manner. He learned how to cut corners by taking the work of others and presenting it as his own, either in written form or as a preacher, preaching someone else's work as his own. He picked the soft options in school and skipped church history and languages (that's why his grasp of Bible languages was so weak.) So, he learned to parrot back the works of others. The deeper matters- unless he had someone to directly quote- were not things he could speak on, so he avoided them.
3) vpw didn't want us to have a relationship with Jesus. vpw wanted us to have a business relationship with him and twi, where he sells the things of God, the prayers, the classes, etc, and everyone else pays tuition, tithes, etc. Not convinced? Ok, answer this: how many denominations or church groups out there teach to consistently give MORE than the tithe? vpw taught it and gave it a name- "abundant sharing." Followup question: how many denominations or church groups out there teach that you can separate what money you need to live on right now, and should give all of the rest to the church? vpw taught that, and gave it a name- "plurality giving." For that matter, he made the tithe a mandatory 10% and a necessity, where the Bible says we are NOT supposed to give "of necessity"- which means, once again, vpw taught the opposite of the Bible on a subject.
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OldSkool
Hiyas! Glad to hear our discussion is helpful to others, thats really cool!
For me, my entire perspective changed on everything in life when I realized that Christ wasn't absent and that he can be a very interactive Lord with each individual in his body, depending on relationship. The book of Acts really shows Jesus interaction with his Church, not exclusively, but its a common thread. He is the head and where he directs is where we go, figuratively, literally etc....just paraphrasing scripture really. Hope to see ya around!
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OldSkool
Ive never given too much thought to wierwilles lust for posessions as a driving factor to pull people away from the real Jesus Christ and not the imaginary, namesake only, absent one. One reason for that with me is I tend to try and seperate the person from what they said when it comes to most issues, appareantly to a fault at times. But now that you mention it!
Wordwolf, you are well aware of what I am going to add, so not telling you anything new here but putting this out there just for the record.
Plurality giving was expanded somewhere along the line to include not only your money but anyTHING you happen to have that you can give as well. This sort of thinking primes the pump to keep operating costs at minimum. Followers feel obligated to open their homes for classes and to allow all that extra wear and tear on that knock off furniture because they can't afford much more due to giving their money away to TWI. Its sad really. They convince you by slowly moving the boundaries to open it all and give it away. Con artistry at it's finest.
Also too, as Wordwolf noted we arent required to give of necissity and the tithe was intituted and given so the Levites could live because they dedicated themselves to the temple. The mandatory tithe is done away in Christ. Just to make it extremely clear for those who may stumble at what hes saying.
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Charity
T-Bone wrote: “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.” chapter and verse please...
T-Bone wrote: “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.” chapter and verse please...
For me, the teaching that Jesus Christ is not God tied in with how Christ eventually became absent in my life. In the past, I had observed how trinity-believing Christians used each name (Jesus and God) interchangeably in their teachings and prayers (often within the same sentence). They gave God and Jesus the same amount of recognition and adoration.
When I stopped believing in the deity of Christ while in the way, these believers became “idolaters” who were breaking God’s commandment of having no other gods before Him (Deut 5:7). Since I didn’t want to be an idolater like them (no way, no how), I began to prioritize God above Jesus in my spiritual life. Over time, this exalting of God and demoting of Jesus led to having the absent Christ.
After that, when I would read verses like Col 2:6,7 “Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him, 7having been firmly rooted and now are being built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, overflowing with thankfulness,” I gave mental assent to them only – yeah, yeah, yeah. It's apparent to me now how insidiously the adversary worked within the way ministry to negate verses like these which clearly declare the importance of Jesus in our lives right now.
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Charity
WordWolf wrote: vpw was unable to teach us about a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus
The first time I went to a fellowship at the Vineyard church in my city, their worship team of musicians and singers sang “Holy and Anointed One.” Most of the people there sang along with their eyes closed, their hands lifted up and their faces showing their love for Jesus. I found myself not even being able to mouth the words without crying my eyes out. Never had I sang a song “to” Jesus before – only about him. I knew the tears were coming from a deep (but buried) longing to experience his love.
I have tried to copy and paste the website for this song but it doesn’t come up when you click on it. If, however, you want to google “holy and anointed song” and pick the shortest version, you can hear it. If you do, can you imagine vp doing the same as the believers did in that fellowship (eyes closed, hands lifted up, face showing a love for Jesus)? Impossible. He would never humble himself enough to do so.
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Charity
OldSkool wrote: For me, my entire perspective changed on everything in life when I realized that Christ wasn't absent and that he can be a very interactive Lord with each individual in his body, depending on relationship.
Recently, when my heart's perspective does begin to shift from an absent Christ to a present Christ, I find I become very emotional. It’s like something inside me wants me to experience these truths (not just think of them) but the strong reaction I feel is so intense that I shut down.
The reason for this is most likely past childhood trauma which led to a lifetime of self-loathing and feelings of unworthiness. I have tried (and failed) many times to deal with these through counseling, self-help books and my involvement in the way. I feel now however that it is something Jesus is going to have do for me. So this is where I’m at right now – talking to him.
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chockfull
Hey Charity welcome!
When I first was born again which was as a young person before TWI, I felt a deep need for not only a Savior but a Lord in my life. Because I wasn’t strong enough or smart enough on my own to feel I could handle it. So I became born again.
Tracing it back it was teachings like you mention about the absolute error of JCNG and the trinity that really closed my mind off as well to considering the rest of the brothers and sisters as members in the body of Christ. Instead the doctrinal error led me to denigrate and discount my Christian brethren.
Today I am not a hard core Trinitarian looking to argue. I love my Lord and Savior and learn more in that relationship daily as my hard head permits.
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chockfull
The Lord Jesus Christ is with you this moment. A personal relationship involves emotions, not going over your SIT chart for the past month to determine if you are good enough to operate other “manifestations”.
Oh and it’s not blasphemy to talk to Him either.
The deity of Christ was discussed much and written about much in the first century after Christs ascension. The Christians in that century all agreed and only one rogue author disagreed. I think he shows up in VPs book of course.
Question the foundations we were taught. I mean VP said if you can’t trust them on 4 crucified how can you regarding the new birth?
So lately I’ve been seeing what works from the opposite perspective. 4 crucified is BS manipulation of harmony of the gospels about details that matter little. And VP does some shuffling around of languages there mostly to look like he is an expert in languages which he was far from.
I can’t trust the flim flammery there so I’m sure that I can’t trust it in the weightier matters of the spirit the new birth and worship.
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OldSkool
Absolutely. Give it to the Lord and rest in comfort knowing that he will lead you as your Lord in these areas. BTW - It's impossible to elevate Jesus Christ above God because It's God who has highly exalted him. Wierwille and TWI shooed us away from the book of Revelation with the rather ridicoulous notion that it's not written to us, but to some group in another administration - lies! Im posting these verses because it's the most descriptive illustration we see in scripture of our Lord after the ascension. I know that much of the language is figurative...but it's not figurative to somehow downplay Christ's glory, it's the opposite. He is so glorious in his ascended state that only figurative language will do in this description.
Revelation 1:10-18
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Edited by OldSkoolLink to comment
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WordWolf
The "marginalize Jesus" thing in twi was never as successful for me as they would have liked. I knew full well what it meant to make Jesus my Lord.
That meant I had sworn fealty to him, and he was my sovereign.
That's a relationship also- where the subject gives loyalty and service to the monarch, and in turn the monarch watches out for the subject.
No matter how little we spoke about him, I was still clear he was my lord and I was his vassal.
To some people this is obvious, to others, it's unusual and an introduction to the idea. So, if God passes the order to Jesus who passes it to me, or God passes it directly, or they both pass it directly because they're the same being, in practice it works out the same.
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Charity
As suggested on this website, I started to read the gospel of John this evening in order to get to know Jesus and how he lived. John 5:23 really stood out because it related to my earlier post of today about Christians I knew in the past who worshiped both Jesus and God equally because of their belief in the trinity, and how I instead began to exalt God much, much higher than Jesus because of my belief that Jesus was not God and my desire not to be an "idolater" like them.
John 8:31,32 says, “Then Jesus said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you continue in my word, then you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
John 5:23 speaks the truth on this matter
. In it Jesus says, “so that all will honor the son just as (even as) they honor the father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.”
God the father and Jesus the son (not God the son) are both to be equally honored (respected, esteemed, admired). What peace this brings to anyone who wants to build a relationship with Jesus such as moi! (that’s “me” in French). I'm Canadian by the way.
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Charity
Chockfull wrote: The Lord Jesus Christ is with you this moment. A personal relationship involves emotions, not going over your SIT chart for the past month to determine if you are good enough to operate other “manifestations”.
Was there really such a thing as a SIT chart that you had to keep to see if you were good enough to operate the other “manifestations?” How does one even keep such a chart? Were you expected to record every time you SIT throughout the day and how long each time lasted? Mind-blowing – not in an impressive way but in a dynamite-exploding way.
I don’t know if anyone can relate to this but one of the strong emotions I had when I first began to read the posts about Jesus on the “absent Christ” thread was fear. It was like a “Danger! Danger!” alarm going off in my head so I just shut down. I think building a trust in Jesus will quiet the fear so I can freely accept his love.
I love listening to Christian songs especially one by Lauren Daigle called “Peace be Still.” She is referring to what Jesus said to the sea after he arose and rebuked the wind but in the song, she is singing about Jesus quieting our fears. Some of the lyrics are:
I don't want to be afraid
Every time I face the waves
I don't want to be afraid
I don't want to be afraid
I don't want to fear the storm
Just because I hear it roar
I don't want to fear the storm
I don't want to fear the storm
Peace be still
Say the word and I will
Set my feet upon the sea
Till I'm dancing in the deep (I like this line because I love to dance)
Peace be still
You are here so it is well
Even when my eyes can't see
I will trust the voice that speaks
Good night and God bless
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