The Absent Christ?

[chockfull]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:03 PM, T-Bone said:

 

Differences to above commentary excerpts:

I also recall wierwille made some variations from pretty good, to bad, to worse: like the greater works was leading someone into the new birth…another variant was leading someone into speaking in tongues…and at its worse…well…to address the elephant in the room – the TOP PRIORITY of TWI-followers was always to promote the PFAL class – and not really about spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. Sure, you can say Jesus Christ is in PFAL – but he is more like window dressing in the earlier sessions of the class – kind of a bait-and-switch thing. A new student is presented with a marketing campaign that promises material abundance and the ability to alter reality through wierwille’s pseudo-Christianity. The “ministry” of wierwille had nothing to do with adding souls to the invisible church. It was about   adding   devoted    followers of the Lord   ….the retention of loyal paying customers who bought into his special brand of bull$hit.

 

Tbone 

I have far departed from my fundamentalist roots.  I'm perfectly happy accepting that section of scripture as Jesus passing on a mission and wishing the best for his friends and followers building vision.

Hey guys live like me follow my example and path you will be great and multiply like fireflies.  Peace out.

Or I mean the dividing of the baby between mothers scripturally is another approach lol....

When I drill down to VP level there the bullshi$ multiplies.  The 82 steps to becoming a Pharisee through controlled group SIT

Edited September 15, 2022 by chockfull

[OldSkool]

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

I think this one is called narcissist hindsight vision.  

It was a fairly common occurrence in the way leadership and a great way to victim blame which they are talented at.  What they are not so talented at is logic or compassion or accountability.

Perhaps

1 Finger points back at accuser and accuser missed revelation on when to schedule dumb meeting

2 Armchair quarterbacks will armchair?

3 Gods job is the revelation your job is not to tell God his job armchair guy

4 Shiz happens i e accidents. 

You know in reflection I was injured at some big event.  It didn't manifest until later but accident during people having fun.

Yessir!!!!

[T-Bone]

8 hours ago, chockfull said:

I have far departed from my fundamentalist roots.  I'm perfectly happy accepting that section of scripture as Jesus passing on a mission and wishing the best for his friends and followers building vision.

Hey guys live like me follow my example and path you will be great and multiply like fireflies.  Peace out.

Or I mean the dividing of the baby between mothers scripturally is another approach lol....

I write this more for other Grease Spotters who have not reevaluated fundamentalism – and just to clarify my own position – which is usually sitting on the couch and binge watching some series with my wife   - in theological discussions I don’t mean to come across as hyper-critical of fundamentalism – it’s a system of thought that has SOME merit. HOWEVER, in versions like TWI there’s heavy emphasis on the authority of leadership (under the guise of “This is what the Word says” ) and the dogmatism of creeds. In that regard, it was useful to a lying, thieving, plagiarizing, glory hound, sexual predator like wierwille. As I mentioned in my post – in PFAL, wierwille USED Jesus Christ as a symbol of authority – like a seal of approved doctrine – as a fisherman would bait a hook. (which reminds me of a live teaching by wierwille when he reinterpreted   Mark 1:17 of Jesus saying to his disciples “I’ll make you to become fishers of men” – wierwille changed it to “make you fishers for the great accuracy of the Word”    what the fvck ?!?!    )…but alas, I digress…

 

The most negative things I’ve noticed about fundamentalism (apart from wierwille’s twisted use of it) is that adherents often seem to assume they have ownership of the ONLY CORRECT interpretation of Scripture, “disciples” often lack relevancy since they tend to be locked into the outmoded time and culture of the Bible, some fundamentalists make like it’s forbidden to think outside their theological box, and lastly fundamentalism strives to maintain    ingroup and outgroup    distinctions  in other words divide-and-conquer,  akin to  us-versus-them mentality.

 

It’s interesting to read about what many consider the foundation of modern Fundamentalism:

In 1910, the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church identified what became known as the five fundamentals

Biblical inspiration and the infallibility of scripture as a result of this

Virgin birth of Jesus

Belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin

Bodily resurrection of Jesus

Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus        

From:      Wikipedia: Fundamentalism

I believe in those 5 fundamentals – and if I may further elaborate on  “the infallibility of scripture” – it’s  NOT  believing in the “mathematical exactness and scientific precision” of wierwille’s bull$hit – but rather it is the belief that what the Bible says regarding matters of faith and Christian practice is wholly useful and true. It is the belief that the Bible is completely trustworthy as a guide to salvation and the life of faith and will not fail to accomplish its purpose. FYI - there's a difference between infallibility and inerrancy  - although some do not see a great distinction between them - I understand infallible as being trustworthy  (not like a scientific textbook but as expressing the mind of God ) see Blue Letter Bible: difference between infallible and inerrant , Logos com: infallibility vs inerrancy of Scripture  ...also   see  Christianity com: infallibility vs inerrancy   Theological Touch Points: infallibility of Scripture  ...note this also touches on the four most popular theories of inspiration - when you figure out which one appeals to you - then you'll probably better understand the inerrancy / infallibility issues   see my post on another thread regarding the 4 most popular theories  -  here  .

 

Anyway...that’s just my understanding on what “the infallibility of scripture” means – yeah it’s got some vagueness to it – not like wierwille’s “it means what it says and says what it means” – where does it say that in the Bible? And it’s pretty silly if you think about it. He is suggesting the Bible is almost like a sentient being having intent – or maybe some universal-language-document. Then why would we need linguists, historians, anthropologists, archeologists, sociologists and others to help us understand a compilation of books written a long time ago in different cultural, geographical, political, and economical settings?

~ ~ ~ ~

I got a kick out of your reference to an incident of Solomon’s wise judging in    I Kings 3:16-28    . A great story of a king who first prayed to God – not for fame, not for long life, not for riches or power over his enemies – he prayed for wisdom to properly serve the people of God:

Now, Lord my God, you have made your servant king in place of my father David. But I am only a little child and do not know how to carry out my duties. 8 Your servant is here among the people you have chosen, a great people, too numerous to count or number. 9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?”      I Kings 3:7-9

Some online definitions of wisdom are the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise; the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of experience, knowledge, and good judgment…Even just being a loving parent I can understand the rationale in Solomon’s calling for his servants to cut the child in two to satisfy the dispute over who the rightful mother was. I don’t think he intended for the order to be carried out – I think he was banking on the maternal instincts of the real mother to settle the case. and it did - the real mother did not want her child to be harmed…How unlike wierwille’s divisive tactic “when it comes to the Word – I have no friends…This  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _   ( insert any wierwille-doctrine here )    is what the Word says – and that’s what it means .”  Which really means you’re either standing with his ministry (aka God’s ministry) or you can take a hike. Instead of allowing Christians the freedom to use their cognitive skills and listen to their conscience and the influence of the Holy Spirit  - wierwille pontificated on how a passage should be interpreted.

 

Speaking of dividing a baby  – that makes me think of wierwille’s screwy concept of “rightly dividing the word” he conjured up out of    II Timothy 2:15 . If you click on the hyperlink I just gave you’ll note there’s other versions of “rightly dividing”. There’s “correctly handles the word of truth”   “correctly explains the word of truth”   “accurately handling and skillfully teaching the word of truth”    “who teaches only the true message”   and “straightforward dealing with the word of truth”.  

Ellicott’s commentary says of II Tim. 2:15  “Rightly dividing the word of truth”   - Better rendered rightly laying out the word of truth. The Greek word translated in the English version “rightly dividing,” literally signifies “cutting a straight line.” It seems most correct to regard it as a metaphor from laying out a road (see Proverbs 3:6, in the LXX. rendering, where the word is so used), “or drawing a furrow, the merit of which consists in the straightness with which the work of cutting, or laying out, is performed. The word of truth is, as it were, a road which is to be laid out straightly and truly.” So Ellicott. To affirm (see Alford and Huther-Meyer) that the notion of “cutting” had been gradually lost, and that the word already in the time of St. Paul signified simply “to manage rightly,” “to treat truthfully without falsifying,” and that the exact opposite is to corrupt or adulterate the Word of God (2Corinthians 2:17), seems premature. (Comp. Eur. Rhesus, 422, ed. Dindorf.)      from:   Bible Hub: commentary of II Timothy 2:15

 

 

What’s the difference from the way wierwille explained it? I’m glad I asked that question.   In PFAL, wierwille made a big deal out of Scripture interpreting itself. That’s screwball misconception # 1.

In PFAL, he also plagiarized Bullinger’s keys to interpret the Bible – or rather mangled Bullinger’s work to give students the idea that correctly interpreting the Bible – or rather  rightly dividing the Bible is always possible as long as you adhere to those keys. That’s screwball misconception # 2.

TWI-followers assumed wierwille always stuck to Bullinger’s keys. But if you take off those wierwille-colored glasses and look through the PFAL books you’ll find it’s fairly easy to spot his inconsistencies – a telltale sign of an imposter using someone else’s ideas - and that’s with the help of an editing staff! And when you observe him in a live teaching setting or speaking extemporaneously his amateurism is even more apparent. Now we’re at screwball misconception # 3.

Going on the sense from Ellicott’s commentary (and I gathered as much from commentaries and Study Bibles I have – but it’s easier to copy and paste from online     )  of II Tim. 2:15 rightly dividing is to treat truthfully without falsifying,” and that the exact opposite is to corrupt or adulterate the Word of God, I think wierwille pulled the wool over my eyes by getting me to believe he was teaching me how to correctly interpret the Bible – when all along he was altering and misleading me (like the teaching of the 4 crucified with Christ – interesting to note THAT actually was an erroneous concept that Bullinger cooked up – and wierwille copied that one verbatim   ), fabricating stories of his greatness, spewing out illogic, dubious and amoral sentiments   - "As long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please" . So basically falsifying, corrupting,  adulterating the Word of God.  weirwille was keen on laying out a CROOKED road for followers to walk in. That’s screwball deception # 4 – and how I got screwed.

Isn’t that something about pseudo-Christian cult leaders – they’re like devious cartographers who not only draw up a screwy map of reality - they also try to sabotage your moral compass...weird...I was in a supposedly Bible-believing group - a Biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry at that - and never realized how lost I was. so glad I left!

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

 

I think God still answers prayer…it's okay to ask God for wisdom...clarity...but He also encourages us to exercise our cognitive skills   AND  besides that, there’s the validation of truth through the work of the Holy Spirit within us. There’s something to be said for a little thing called intuition. Sometimes I can figure things out by using my little old pea brain. sometimes it might be spiritual instincts – I dunno – just thinking out loud here:

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.    John 7:17

Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this.   II Timothy 2:7

Edited September 16, 2022 by T-Bone
Editors are fishing for typos

[Twinky]

8 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Isn’t that something about pseudo-Christian cult leaders – they’re like devious cartographers who not only draw up a screwy map of reality - they also try to sabotage your moral compass...weird...I was in a supposedly Bible-believing group - a Biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry at that - and never realized how lost I was. so glad I left!

Splendid, T-Bone.  Lost inside a Bible group!

Makes me think of the "blessings and cursings" - specifically the curses, from Mt Ebal.  Deut 27:17:

 

Quote

Cursed is he who moves his neighbor’s boundary stone.’

And let all the people say, ‘Amen!’

Which VPW used to say that anyone who tried to move the boundaries of someone's mind was cursed; that once we have the boundaries of the word to give us a sound mind, if anyone tried to move us off the word [as he taught] was cursed.  (I paraphrase, can't remember the precise wording, but that was the gist of it.)  But actually, all the time that's exactly what he was doing himself.  He moved our moral compasses so badly, that abuse of others, both within and without TWI, in various ways, became the accepted norm.  "Tough love" became merely "tough."

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Twinky
How the heck does "end quote" work these days?

[modcat5]

Oh ok.

 

[T-Bone]

I have been reading    Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism    and yesterday I came across something that made me think about this Absent Christ thread. From the following excerpts of the book, I couldn’t help but compare and contrast two very different men. There’s Paul – who had a phenomenal life-changing experience on the road to Damascus, chosen to be an apostle of Jesus Christ. Then there’s victor paul wierwille – who claimed he was given directives by God to pick up where Paul left off…cloaked in a mantle of deception he assumed the role of an apostle wannabe…a zealous pioneering advocate of a new idea – “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ”.

 

…anyway… …the following excerpts are from pages 96 - 99 of the Kindle edition:

Paul is a (perhaps the) primary witness in the shaping of the Christian revelation. He penned his words at a time when there were no written Gospels to feed his memory or to create his images. His epistles came during the oral period of Christian history, when there was no one authoritative source of written kerygma (the apostolic proclamation)…

…nor do we have any way of knowing that Paul had access to them even if these portions of the tradition were written. These facts create an interpretative problem for modern expositors of Paul. Our minds have been so shaped by the Gospel account that we do not recognize how frequently we read Paul through the eyes of the Gospels. We need to embrace the fact that none of Paul’s first readers read him this way, for in their lives there were as yet no Gospels. To interpret Paul accurately we need to put ourselves into the first-century pre-gospel frame of reference and to hear Paul in fresh and authentic ways. When one does this the insights into the primitive Christian experience are startling and challenging…

…Paul spoke and wrote Greek fluently, but with the inclusion of many secondhand semitisms. His writing style, however was the style of a speaker. He hardly ever used a period; only dashes. Sometimes his sentences would be so long, with so parenthetical thoughts thrown in, that a reader would forget what the subject of the sentence of the sentence was before reaching the verb. His writing had the rhythm of the spoken word, but he did reach heights of the almost poetic elegance in such passages as I Corinthians 13 and Rom. 8:31 – 39.

Whatever else can be said about Paul, one certainly must acknowledge that on his scale of values the Law, the Torah, and his religious traditions were supreme. By this Law he lived, defined himself, shaped his life, and sought his ultimate meaning…

…Paul’s writings reveal the combination of intense levels of self-negativity covered by intensely cultivated images of superiority. At first these forces fed Paul’s devotion to Judaism at the same time that they created his defensiveness. Subsequently these forces became operative in his later devotion to and understanding of the gospel. But whatever was the source of Paul’s anxiety, the rise of the Christian movement within Judaism threatened Paul’s security and identity so severely that he responded by becoming a persecutor of this movement…

…Earlier convictions, passionately held, cannot be passionately abandoned without a volcanic internal crisis. Paul recounted his career as a persecutor (I Cor. 15:9; Gal.1:12ff, 1:22). And when his energies were directed to Christian ends, the intensity, passion, and single-mindedness of his personality were not diminished. He became an apostle in a manner no less consuming of his life…

 

From:    Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks this Meaning of Scripture by John Shelby Spong

End of excerpts

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

A few thoughts...

For an apostle who never knew Jesus during his earthly ministry – Paul’s life, letters and example certainly had a lot of significant input to Christian thought. For some reason the transformation of Paul resonates with me. I think I was knocked off of my high horse when I realized I was in a cult of the absent Christ . My indoctrination skipped the typical Christian route of going through the Gospels.

~ ~ ~ ~

As an apostle of Jesus Christ, Paul was a zealous pioneering advocate for the reality, immanency, and supremacy of the risen Christ.

~ ~ ~ ~

Paul and the other apostles didn’t lure people in with promises of health, wealth, power, and secret knowledge. Their “marketing strategy”  was per the simple directive from their resurrected Lord: But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth     Acts 1:8 NLT    . In the New Testament the original notion of a witness is exhibited in the special form of one who attests his belief in the gospel by personal suffering. Hence it is that the use of the ecclesiastical term ("martyr." the Greek word for "witness," has arisen.     From:    Bible Study Tools: witness   .

Imagine if  that  was one of the benefits listed on the back of the green PFAL signup card: promotes personal suffering by belief in Jesus Christ.

 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

 

Real Christian witnesses should tell the truth about Jesus Christ.

In other words, don’t go around “teaching” people Christ is absent!

~ ~ ~ ~

Paul and the other apostles didn’t go around browbeating new converts into submission by pontificating about “the greatness of the integrity and accuracy of The Word” because they didn’t have “The Word” (also known as wierwille's  twisted  interpretation of the King James Bible, aka PFAL    ) . Thus, they couldn’t refer to chapter and verse or reference by PFAL class session number. They didn’t indoctrinate folks with “Scripture-interprets-itself” nonsense. They didn’t practice the fine art of “Scripture buildup” slight-of-hand magic fallacies to propagate the lie of 4 crucified with Jesus ( that was really just a self-promotion trick…it says “look what I found! I’m so smart ! Don't you want to see what else I have up my sleeve?” ). And they didn’t put on airs like they were some great research scholars with “I wish you could read it in the original” hooey.

 

What did the apostles have?  I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders, and miracles.   II Corinthians 12:12  . “including” means not limited to signs, wonders, and miracles. The purpose of that was to authenticate them as God’s genuine apostles…what has God ever done to authenticate wierwille’s “ministry” ? All we have is wierwille’s initial claim that God talked to him? And I ask that in all sincerity as a one might ask in a court of law. If there were ever witnesses to verify God talked to wierwille or can attest to wierwille’s signs, miracles, and wonders - they’ve never come forward. Where are they?

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Besides divine authentication Paul and his associates walked the talk. They inspired others by their example:

You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.     I Thessalonians 1:6

 

I Thess. 1:6 is a compelling generation saga. The Lord Jesus Christ is the first born among many brothers and sisters (  Romans 8:29  )   or like the progenitor - founder of a family, first in the line of descent;  In genealogy (commonly known as family history) a progenitor is the earliest recorded ancestor of a blood-relative family group of descendants.

 Paul and his associates were 2^nd generation “imitators” of the Lord Jesus Christ  ( note      Bible Hub: Greek/English Interlinear of I Thess. 1:6   “imitators” in Greek is the word  μιμηταὶ -  also   ( Bible Hub: Greek mime_tai , Strong’s # 3402      ,  from which we get our English word “mimic” = imitate someone or their actions or words) . The Thessalonians became the 3^rd generation to mimic Christ.

~ ~ ~ ~

This seems to me to be the     supernatural order of things    in the early Christian movement and in my opinion just as relevant today. Jesus Christ – his earthly life, words, works, suffering, death, resurrection, ascension, and current various roles should be first and foremost the core elements of what every Christian – and especially pastors and those evangelizing - should know. these folks are the 2^nd generation imitators of the Lord. No one is perfect but I think when we are less self-promoting and become more honest, humble and Christ-promoting, people can see the difference. It’s not being on an ego-trip or driven like a pushy sales rep trying to fill a class quota. Genuine altruistic Christian behavior is a supernatural attractant    ultimately spawning a 3^rd generation of Christ imitators.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

When I was about 12 years old, I would grab a badminton racquet, put The Four Season’s Walk Like A Man on my big brother’s record player and stand up on his bed so I could see myself in the mirror strumming the racquet and lip-syncing to the song. Damn I was good!    Oh those were the days…   They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery – which means that one imitates someone else because one admires that person or values what that person is doing. But what I did was child’s play. I knew that !!!! I could not sing like the Four Seasons – still can’t carry a tune.      And a badminton racquet is not a musical instrument – I don’t care what alternate tuning you use!

~ ~ ~ ~ 

Years later I took up the electric bass. I am self-taught. I learned by imitation. I would put on record by The Cream, Hendrix, Zappa, The Four Tops or the Beatles and even with my wooden ear   - eeeeeeventuallyyyyyy  - by hunt and pluck, I’d get in sync / tune with the bass player.     That takes critical thinking skills – there’s a learning curve. I’m not a linguist to explain the nuance of difference between imitate and emulate.

So, internet to the rescue! Online it says emulate means to attempt to equal or be the same as, whereas imitate means to follow as a model or a pattern. imitate means to copy something, to follow something as a model or to simulate something. The word imitate may take on the connotation of unflattering mimicry, or it may take on the connotation of a counterfeit representation of something. Imitate is a transitive verb, which is a verb that takes an object. Related words are imitates, imitated, imitating, imitator, imitation. The word imitate is derived from the Latin word imitatus, which means copy or portray.

Emulate also refers to imitating someone, but it means to match that person in importance or success, or to surpass that person in importance or success. Emulate carries the connotation of wishing to excel by patterning oneself on someone else who is worthy of esteem. The word emulate is also a transitive verb, related words are emulates, emulated, emulating, emulator, emulation. Emulate is derived from the Latin word aemulator, which means an imitative rival.     From:    Grammarist com: imitate versus emulate

To teach myself how to play bass, I chose bass players that I thought were worthy of esteem. I would imitate and eventually emulate them. I’d zero in on what I liked and analyzed why it worked. For improvisation I loved to listen to The Cream’s bassist Jack Bruce. Tunes like Spoonful (live) never fails to fascinate me with Bruce’s call and response musical form on the bass  - he plays a melodic riff then follows it up by a second or third slightly different phrase that completes the idea. I also like listening to the lilting phrases of the bass, violas and cellos written by Paul McCartney on tunes like Eleanor Rigby and Penny Lane. What’s surprising is that both Bruce and McCartney have mentioned Motown studio bassist James Jamerson as a big influence. So, I guess that makes me a 3^rd generation home-schooled bassist. I've played bass in a few garage bands, had a few bar room gigs  , a bar mitzvah or two, a few block parties, coffee houses, birthday parties, college campus parties, one college musical production, and last but not least  in TWI-ministry bands I've played in the Music Challenge, Rome City Campus Chapel, small stages at the Rock...Funny though - they'd never give me a microphone...I wonder why? 

 

I think wierwille may have had a childlike fantasy he was the follow-up act for Paul the apostle. wierwille had a charismatic personality. He was a dynamic speaker. He claimed God had spoken to him and chose him to be  the  teacher for this day and time and hour. But it wasn’t real. He plagiarized the work of others - which was the equivalent of 12-year-old me lip-syncing and strumming the badminton racquet to Walk Like A Man…and I tell you what – even as a 12-year-old I knew what I was doing was not the real thing.

 

wierwille was play-acting the part of Paul the apostle. He lacked authenticity…and in all his plagiarizing, lying, thieving, Drambuie-drinking, self-promotion, sexual predations he never earned the right to tell the truth about Jesus Christ – and it was apparent he had little desire to do so. He could talk the walk – I’ll give him that.

 

It’s got to be the height of blasphemy for wierwille to teach Christ is absent…maybe call it heresy or heterodoxy…Heresy being an offense against Christianity, consisting in a denial of some essential doctrine, which denial is publicly avowed, and obstinately maintained. If it’s sustained – that usually takes an organized system of thought. Heterodoxy is a system of doctrines, contrary to some established standard of faith, as the Scriptures, the creed, or standards of a church.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

There are some parallels with my time of involvement with The Way International.

I totally bought into wierwille’s bull$hit. I thought he was the real deal. I wanted to be a great believer like I thought he was. That was one of the big reasons why I went into the way corps – to imitate him. wierwille was the progenitor for a whole line of pseudo-Christians. I was a 2^nd generation faker, following in my “Dad’s” footsteps. Couldn’t wait to go out into areas of concern, interest and need (per TWI’s agenda) and sign up folks for PFAL…let’s plagiarize / revise a Who tune “talkin’ ‘bout the third generation” and wrap it up with an Austin Powers’ twist “yeah Baby!”

 

Note the challenging counterfeit to the fundamental idea of I Thessalonians 1:6:

wierwille imitated the trappings of Paul the apostle but not what Paul had on the inside.

 

Jesus Christ put it this way: What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity. Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.   Matthew 23:27, 28

 

 

What did Paul have on the inside?

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.    Galatians 2:20     Our Christian life legally began when we were crucified with Christ (idea for a new book: The Billions Crucified with Jesus Christ…take that, Bullinger!    ) . Our Christian lifestyle is contingent upon our relational choices. Do we prefer those comfortable old shoes of bad habits? Or do we make more of an effort to follow Christ? Is Christ absent or present in our lives? (idea for a book sequel: Why Is My Zombie Look-alike Still Following Me?  )    Then he said to the crowd, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross daily, and follow me.  If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it.    Luke 9:23,24  ….(how about I make it a trilogy:   Every Damn Day I have To Crucify My Zombie Look-alike  ) .

 

The Absent Christ?

I think Christ was absent from wierwille’s life and legacy.

Edited September 24, 2022 by T-Bone
editorial absenteeism: the practice of regularly staying away from correcting typos without good reason

[OldSkool]

15 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I have been reading    Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism    and yesterday I came across something that made me think about this Absent Christ thread. From the following excerpts of the book, I couldn’t help but compare and contrast two very different men. There’s Paul – who had a phenomenal life-changing experience on the road to Damascus, chosen to be an apostle of Jesus Christ. Then there’s victor paul wierwille – who claimed he was given directives by God to pick up where Paul left off…cloaked in a mantle of deception he assumed the role of an apostle wannabe…a zealous pioneering advocate of a new idea – “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ”.

 

…anyway… …the following excerpts are from pages 96 - 99 of the Kindle edition:

Paul is a (perhaps the) primary witness in the shaping of the Christian revelation. He penned his words at a time when there were no written Gospels to feed his memory or to create his images. His epistles came during the oral period of Christian history, when there was no one authoritative source of written kerygma (the apostolic proclamation)…

…nor do we have any way of knowing that Paul had access to them even if these portions of the tradition were written. These facts create an interpretative problem for modern expositors of Paul. Our minds have been so shaped by the Gospel account that we do not recognize how frequently we read Paul through the eyes of the Gospels. We need to embrace the fact that none of Paul’s first readers read him this way, for in their lives there were as yet no Gospels. To interpret Paul accurately we need to put ourselves into the first-century pre-gospel frame of reference and to hear Paul in fresh and authentic ways. When one does this the insights into the primitive Christian experience are startling and challenging…

…Paul spoke and wrote Greek fluently, but with the inclusion of many secondhand semitisms. His writing style, however was the style of a speaker. He hardly ever used a period; only dashes. Sometimes his sentences would be so long, with so parenthetical thoughts thrown in, that a reader would forget what the subject of the sentence of the sentence was before reaching the verb. His writing had the rhythm of the spoken word, but he did reach heights of the almost poetic elegance in such passages as I Corinthians 13 and Rom. 8:31 – 39.

Whatever else can be said about Paul, one certainly must acknowledge that on his scale of values the Law, the Torah, and his religious traditions were supreme. By this Law he lived, defined himself, shaped his life, and sought his ultimate meaning…

…Paul’s writings reveal the combination of intense levels of self-negativity covered by intensely cultivated images of superiority. At first these forces fed Paul’s devotion to Judaism at the same time that they created his defensiveness. Subsequently these forces became operative in his later devotion to and understanding of the gospel. But whatever was the source of Paul’s anxiety, the rise of the Christian movement within Judaism threatened Paul’s security and identity so severely that he responded by becoming a persecutor of this movement…

…Earlier convictions, passionately held, cannot be passionately abandoned without a volcanic internal crisis. Paul recounted his career as a persecutor (I Cor. 15:9; Gal.1:12ff, 1:22). And when his energies were directed to Christian ends, the intensity, passion, and single-mindedness of his personality were not diminished. He became an apostle in a manner no less consuming of his life…

 

From:    Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks this Meaning of Scripture by John Shelby Spong

End of excerpts

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

A few thoughts...

For an apostle who never knew Jesus during his earthly ministry – Paul’s life, letters and example certainly had a lot of significant input to Christian thought. For some reason the transformation of Paul resonates with me. I think I was knocked off of my high horse when I realized I was in a cult of the absent Christ . My indoctrination skipped the typical Christian route of going through the Gospels.

~ ~ ~ ~

As an apostle of Jesus Christ, Paul was a zealous pioneering advocate for the reality, immanency, and supremacy of the risen Christ.

~ ~ ~ ~

Paul and the other apostles didn’t lure people in with promises of health, wealth, power, and secret knowledge. Their “marketing strategy”  was per the simple directive from their resurrected Lord: But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth     Acts 1:8 NLT    . In the New Testament the original notion of a witness is exhibited in the special form of one who attests his belief in the gospel by personal suffering. Hence it is that the use of the ecclesiastical term ("martyr." the Greek word for "witness," has arisen.     From:    Bible Study Tools: witness   .

Imagine if  that  was one of the benefits listed on the back of the green PFAL signup card: promotes personal suffering by belief in Jesus Christ.

 

~ ~ ~ ~ 

 

Real Christian witnesses should tell the truth about Jesus Christ.

In other words, don’t go around “teaching” people Christ is absent!

~ ~ ~ ~

Paul and the other apostles didn’t go around browbeating new converts into submission by pontificating about “the greatness of the integrity and accuracy of The Word” because they didn’t have “The Word” (also known as wierwille's  twisted  interpretation of the King James Bible, aka PFAL    ) . Thus, they couldn’t refer to chapter and verse or reference by PFAL class session number. They didn’t indoctrinate folks with “Scripture-interprets-itself” nonsense. They didn’t practice the fine art of “Scripture buildup” slight-of-hand magic fallacies to propagate the lie of 4 crucified with Jesus ( that was really just a self-promotion trick…it says “look what I found! I’m so smart ! Don't you want to see what else I have up my sleeve?” ). And they didn’t put on airs like they were some great research scholars with “I wish you could read it in the original” hooey.

 

What did the apostles have?  I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders, and miracles.   II Corinthians 12:12  . “including” means not limited to signs, wonders, and miracles. The purpose of that was to authenticate them as God’s genuine apostles…what has God ever done to authenticate wierwille’s “ministry” ? All we have is wierwille’s initial claim that God talked to him? And I ask that in all sincerity as a one might ask in a court of law. If there were ever witnesses to verify God talked to wierwille or can attest to wierwille’s signs, miracles, and wonders - they’ve never come forward. Where are they?

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Besides divine authentication Paul and his associates walked the talk. They inspired others by their example:

You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.     I Thessalonians 1:6

 

I Thess. 1:6 is a compelling generation saga. The Lord Jesus Christ is the first born among many brothers and sisters (  Romans 8:29  )   or like the progenitor - founder of a family, first in the line of descent;  In genealogy (commonly known as family history) a progenitor is the earliest recorded ancestor of a blood-relative family group of descendants.

 Paul and his associates were 2^nd generation “imitators” of the Lord Jesus Christ  ( note      Bible Hub: Greek/English Interlinear of I Thess. 1:6   “imitators” in Greek is the word  μιμηταὶ -  also   ( Bible Hub: Greek mime_tai , Strong’s # 3402      ,  from which we get our English word “mimic” = imitate someone or their actions or words) . The Thessalonians became the 3^rd generation to mimic Christ.

~ ~ ~ ~

This seems to me to be the     supernatural order of things    in the early Christian movement and in my opinion just as relevant today. Jesus Christ – his earthly life, words, works, suffering, death, resurrection, ascension, and current various roles should be first and foremost the core elements of what every Christian – and especially pastors and those evangelizing - should know. these folks are the 2^nd generation imitators of the Lord. No one is perfect but I think when we are less self-promoting and become more honest, humble and Christ-promoting, people can see the difference. It’s not being on an ego-trip or driven like a pushy sales rep trying to fill a class quota. Genuine altruistic Christian behavior is a supernatural attractant    ultimately spawning a 3^rd generation of Christ imitators.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

When I was about 12 years old, I would grab a badminton racquet, put The Four Season’s Walk Like A Man on my big brother’s record player and stand up on his bed so I could see myself in the mirror strumming the racquet and lip-syncing to the song. Damn I was good!    Oh those were the days…   They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery – which means that one imitates someone else because one admires that person or values what that person is doing. But what I did was child’s play. I knew that !!!! I could not sing like the Four Seasons – still can’t carry a tune.      And a badminton racquet is not a musical instrument – I don’t care what alternate tuning you use!

~ ~ ~ ~ 

Years later I took up the electric bass. I am self-taught. I learned by imitation. I would put on record by The Cream, Hendrix, Zappa, The Four Tops or the Beatles and even with my wooden ear   - eeeeeeventuallyyyyyy  - by hunt and pluck, I’d get in sync / tune with the bass player.     That takes critical thinking skills – there’s a learning curve. I’m not a linguist to explain the nuance of difference between imitate and emulate.

So, internet to the rescue! Online it says emulate means to attempt to equal or be the same as, whereas imitate means to follow as a model or a pattern. imitate means to copy something, to follow something as a model or to simulate something. The word imitate may take on the connotation of unflattering mimicry, or it may take on the connotation of a counterfeit representation of something. Imitate is a transitive verb, which is a verb that takes an object. Related words are imitates, imitated, imitating, imitator, imitation. The word imitate is derived from the Latin word imitatus, which means copy or portray.

Emulate also refers to imitating someone, but it means to match that person in importance or success, or to surpass that person in importance or success. Emulate carries the connotation of wishing to excel by patterning oneself on someone else who is worthy of esteem. The word emulate is also a transitive verb, related words are emulates, emulated, emulating, emulator, emulation. Emulate is derived from the Latin word aemulator, which means an imitative rival.     From:    Grammarist com: imitate versus emulate

To teach myself how to play bass, I chose bass players that I thought were worthy of esteem. I would imitate and eventually emulate them. I’d zero in on what I liked and analyzed why it worked. For improvisation I loved to listen to The Cream’s bassist Jack Bruce. Tunes like Spoonful (live) never fails to fascinate me with Bruce’s call and response musical form on the bass  - he plays a melodic riff then follows it up by a second or third slightly different phrase that completes the idea. I also like listening to the lilting phrases of the bass, violas and cellos written by Paul McCartney on tunes like Eleanor Rigby and Penny Lane. What’s surprising is that both Bruce and McCartney have mentioned Motown studio bassist James Jamerson as a big influence. So, I guess that makes me a 3^rd generation home-schooled bassist. I've played bass in a few garage bands, had a few bar room gigs  , a bar mitzvah or two, a few block parties, coffee houses, birthday parties, college campus parties, one college musical production, and last but not least  in TWI-ministry bands I've played in the Music Challenge, Rome City Campus Chapel, small stages at the Rock...Funny though - they'd never give me a microphone...I wonder why? 

 

I think wierwille may have had a childlike fantasy he was the follow-up act for Paul the apostle. wierwille had a charismatic personality. He was a dynamic speaker. He claimed God had spoken to him and chose him to be  the  teacher for this day and time and hour. But it wasn’t real. He plagiarized the work of others - which was the equivalent of 12-year-old me lip-syncing and strumming the badminton racquet to Walk Like A Man…and I tell you what – even as a 12-year-old I knew what I was doing was not the real thing.

 

wierwille was play-acting the part of Paul the apostle. He lacked authenticity…and in all his plagiarizing, lying, thieving, Drambuie-drinking, self-promotion, sexual predations he never earned the right to tell the truth about Jesus Christ – and it was apparent he had little desire to do so. He could talk the walk – I’ll give him that.

 

It’s got to be the height of blasphemy for wierwille to teach Christ is absent…maybe call it heresy or heterodoxy…Heresy being an offense against Christianity, consisting in a denial of some essential doctrine, which denial is publicly avowed, and obstinately maintained. If it’s sustained – that usually takes an organized system of thought. Heterodoxy is a system of doctrines, contrary to some established standard of faith, as the Scriptures, the creed, or standards of a church.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

There are some parallels with my time of involvement with The Way International.

I totally bought into wierwille’s bull$hit. I thought he was the real deal. I wanted to be a great believer like I thought he was. That was one of the big reasons why I went into the way corps – to imitate him. wierwille was the progenitor for a whole line of pseudo-Christians. I was a 2^nd generation faker, following in my “Dad’s” footsteps. Couldn’t wait to go out into areas of concern, interest and need (per TWI’s agenda) and sign up folks for PFAL…let’s plagiarize / revise a Who tune “talkin’ ‘bout the third generation” and wrap it up with an Austin Powers’ twist “yeah Baby!”

 

Note the challenging counterfeit to the fundamental idea of I Thessalonians 1:6:

wierwille imitated the trappings of Paul the apostle but not what Paul had on the inside.

 

Jesus Christ put it this way: What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity. Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.   Matthew 23:27, 28

 

 

What did Paul have on the inside?

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.    Galatians 2:20     Our Christian life legally began when we were crucified with Christ (idea for a new book: The Billions Crucified with Jesus Christ…take that, Bullinger!    ) . Our Christian lifestyle is contingent upon our relational choices. Do we prefer those comfortable old shoes of bad habits? Or do we make more of an effort to follow Christ? Is Christ absent or present in our lives? (idea for a book sequel: Why Is My Zombie Look-alike Still Following Me?  )    Then he said to the crowd, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross daily, and follow me.  If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it.    Luke 9:23,24  ….(how about I make it a trilogy:   Every Damn Day I have To Crucify My Zombie Look-alike  ) .

 

The Absent Christ?

I think Christ was absent from wierwille’s life and legacy.

I really appreciate your post, T-Bone! This really puts so very much in perspective that I have been trying to understand. 

 

Quote

Real Christian witnesses should tell the truth about Jesus Christ.

In other words, don’t go around “teaching” people Christ is absent!

 

This line right here. When I left TWI I found myself lost, wondering where in the world I would ever take someone that I had witnessed to. I felt lost without TWI thinking that there was nowhere to send people to learn what they needed to know and without a "ministry" I wandered, floundered around, and was kinda lost until I let go of my idols - TWI was my idol. Over time it began to gel in my heart that the only place I ever needed to point anyone to was Jesus Christ. He is quite capable to take care of the people that God has given him.

Quote

 

John 16:13-16

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

 

We understand that the Spirit of truth came on Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2. All things that the Father hath are mine - theres an order revealed in these verses - the father has given all things into Christ's hands and via the spirit Christ shows us the things that God has put into his hands. Jesus tells them in these verses that they will be seperated from him during his crucifixion but then gets right to his resuerecction and eventual ascension that they WOULD see him again. This prophecy is confirmed all through the book of Acts. 

Acts 2:33 is the an awesome summation and fulfillment - Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

God exalted Jesus to his right hand. If your God's right hand you are second in command...who else has ever been God's righ hand man? Not even Adam. God set the pattern  - Jesus Christ received of the Father the promise of holy spirit and he - Jesus Christ - shed forth the promise which they saw and heard! That is in no way shape or form absent!

Quote

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

We tend to think of his reign as his millenial kingdom only, well, at least I did based on wierwilles heresy that Christ is absent, the bible takes his place, Christ is sitting there like a bump on a log until the next administration....geez!  But it's much larger than that. Christ is doing his thing right now, he is reigning right now. Obviously, the second coming hasn't happened yet but all things are under his feet just not all things subdued just yet; it's coming but the authority is there. 

Wierwille wanted the glory for himself. He actually tried to supplant Christ by calling him absent and then treating his dinky 501-c3 as the body of Christ. Sadly I used to believe that mess and sadly there are still people that do.

I think you are right - Christ was absent from his life and he tried to project that outwards to us.

I really enjoyed the book quotes. More later - I need to think over some of the things you posted. Thanks again!

[Mike]

I suppose a lot of posters here would find the wording of the "HIDDEN Christ"  just as repulsive as the absent Christ?

I like them both.

[OldSkool]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

I suppose a lot of posters here would find the wording of the "HIDDEN Christ"  just as repulsive as the absent Christ?

I like them both.

Cool, that sir is your god given right! 

[Nathan_Jr]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

I suppose a lot of posters here would find the wording of the "HIDDEN Christ"  just as repulsive as the absent Christ?

I like them both.

Repulsive? What an incredibly stupid supposition.

HIDDEN and ABSENT are not synonymous.

When my son was very little, we would play hide and seek in the house. When he was hiding, he was still present in the house, but he was hidden, concealed. Finding him only undid his hiding, but his presence was unchanged - he was not absent, he was hiding.

If I left the house and hid in a neighbor's house, my son would never find me. It would not matter how cleverly I hid in the neighbor's house because I would no longer be present in ours where we were playing, I would be absent.

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
Mere assertion of a claim doesn't make it true. Did you see The Omen? Asset or Liability?

[Twinky]

It appears that Christ really was "the absent Christ" to VPW. 

And so, Christ became absent to many who followed (or still follow) VPW and Wayish dogma.

To those who practise Christianity in some form but no longer subscribe to Wayish dogma, Christ is far from absent; he's very near.

To those who've abandoned all religious notions, Christ is certainly absent, because he doesn't exist and neither does God.

Within this group, those seem to be the options.

[T-Bone]

WWJD    versus    WWwT

         or the runner-up title

The Absent Christ – codename: Gnosticism 

 

There are two ways to make a student learn and understand a concept. One is the abstract way where the subject is taught in the form of text and pictures and sought to be made clear to students through classroom lectures given by teachers. Our textbooks in schools are the backbone of this theory system. It is believed that most of our learning comes through this theoretical system of education. The properties of objects and matter and the way they interact with each other are written and described in categories so as to make students grasp them in a better manner.

 

Subjects like history can always be presented in the form of theory or text as there is no way to convert them into practice though today there are visual mediums that can be used to make students even see history and geography. However, natural phenomenon, their reasons, causes, and correlations are always sought to be presented in textual form so that students retain them for a long time period. Of course, a medical student can understand a disease in a much better manner when shown a person afflicted with a disease, but he is still made to learn the symptoms in a theoretical manner so as to be able to better diagnose between two similar diseases.

 

Practice

In all systems of education, there is a methodology of teaching based upon practice. This is a part of education that is best described through vocational courses and certificates and diplomas that people get in professions of hairstyling, plumbing, carpentry, cookery, electronics repair, air conditioning, etc. In most of these professions, there is a theoretical part which tries to present the subject matter in the form of a capsule.

 

This theory is, however, used by students, to write down in exams to get good grades while practice is first hand experience of what they are supposed to do in real life after passing out from their classes. A lawyer may undergo a lot of theory based classes but, in real life, when he starts his practice, he is always dependent upon his acumen and present evidences.

 

What is the difference between Theory and Practice?

• It is all too easy to explain the concepts of thirst, pain and sorrow in theory, but the person realizes the difference only when he undergoes these experiences in real life.

• In theory, many assumptions are made to explain the phenomenon and concepts whereas in real life, there are no assumptions and conditions are always unique.

• Most of the subjects consist of a theory as well as practical part, but there are some courses that are vocational in nature and need to be taught through first hand practice.

• However, even medical students have to learn theories and symptoms of diseases when they can be taught entirely through practice.

• The dichotomy of theory and practice will remain as these two form the backbone of all learning procedures.

Excerpts are from:       what is the difference between theory and practice?

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

This one line “In all systems of education, there is a methodology of teaching based upon practice” jumped out to me.

In my opinion, there’s large portions of PFAL that are impractical – yet students are encouraged to accept them as the gospel truth. By impractical I mean they’re not adaptable for use or action – they are flat out foolish…unrealistic. Ideas like the law of believing, Scripture interprets itself, and wierwille’s amoral interpretation of Christ’s two great commandments come to mind     Matthew 22: 34 -40  .

 

wierwille's theories in PFAL may look good on paper - or video   - but in the acid test - when the rubber meets the road - when you try to apply them - they don't work!

 

This thread on the absent Christ in wierwille’s ideology got me thinking why a love for the gospels was rekindled when I left TWI. It’s awkward to explain – but I’ll try.     And the following explanation will decode the title at the top of my post:

WWJD    versus    WWwT

Remember WWJD = What Would Jesus Do? (I’ll get to the WWwT in a little bit    )  

Do you remember that popular slogan (popular with many Christian groups but not TWI - from the 90s I think). I've always thought that it was cool and pretty compelling – a moral imperative – a reminder to act in a way that demonstrated the love, compassion and kindness of Jesus Christ…(also interesting to note TWI discouraged using  just the name "Jesus" - since, they said it referred to his humiliation and also  they claimed there was a devil spirit named Jesus     )

Ironically reflecting back on when I took PFAL ‘74, I think wierwille used Jesus Christ and the basic tenets of Christianity as almost like a window dressing – creating a favorable impression to draw people in…but it’s misleading…like a bait-and-switch scam…Jesus Christ, sin, forgiveness, love, etc. are mentioned a lot in the earlier sessions of PFAL. There is even a point when wierwille says “Tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.” That made a lot of sense to me – since Jesus Christ is the central figure of Christianity.

then there is a subtle but crucial shift of importance when wierwille says “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ"…and my little pea brain was fascinated by the intangible world of captivating and mesmerizing notions that have no expiration date. There was a hyper-focus on the church epistles in PFAL – to the detriment of attention to the gospels – especially the life, words, works, and suffering of Jesus Christ. And I believe that short-circuited a transformative relationship with him. In the class, wierwille provided a misdirection.

 

Remember in the class when wierwille was commenting on – if memory serves, I think it was     John 5:39    “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”  He said something along the lines of “It doesn’t say search Shakespeare or Chaucer. It says search the scriptures. The Word is not an aid to devotion – it’s life – eternal life.” I’ve come to strongly disagree with his opinion. I think the Bible is supposed to be an aid to devotion – it’s one of the ways we can cultivate a loving relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

wierwille’s comments are a dicey recipe for a cattywampus pseudo-Christian cult. Rather than me being a mindful Christian immersed in the gospels and sensing the moral imperative to follow Jesus Christ’s example - which should be compelling enough for any Christian – I fell for wierwille’s bookish approach via the church epistles. That eclipsed any budding relationship with my Lord. Instead of Christ’s moral imperative I was misdirected to an intellectual directive to study “The Word”…Maybe that’s what led me to have a cold…clinical…book-knowledge approach to Christianity rather than pursuing a deeper…personally immersive experience through Jesus Christ.

Maybe earlier in PFAL wierwille had a point and didn’t know it. What if you think Jesus Christ is absent? How far will you go spiritually?

An easy read that helped me start to bring the central figure of the Christian faith back into clear focus is    Jesus: Lord & Savior by F.F. Bruce      it gets into how Jesus was not only an historical figure but our eternal contemporary. Jesus Christ is The Logos – the Living Word – Jesus Christ is alive and well !

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

2. WWwT = What Would wierwille Think? Since wierwille was a pontificating Pharisee of the highest order    ( see  Matthew 23  ) while I was in TWI, I found myself usually engaging in mental masturbation of PFAL. It seemed intellectually stimulating but useless for the most part. Procrastination had a cloak of invisibility that was built into the a mindset promoted by PFAL . It’s sneaky how it often got me to defer action until sometime later or to think I was actually accomplishing something by my thoughts…it's really mental masturbation and it's an excuse to avoid taking constructive action.

 

check out the evolution:  The Word takes the place of the absent Christ… …study the Word… …put the Word first in your life… I’m doing the Word… I think the Word of you… and this is no joke – when my mind would try to draw on some principle of “the Word” – lo and behold something wierwille said would pop into my head.

 

if I would have used the slogan what would wierwille do? It would have been a short answer - nothing      since he was a pontificating bossy-pants Pharisee who told everyone what they should do.

 

 

I noticed the same hobbling mindset in LCM when I was in-rez watching the VP and Me video. LCM talked of when he first assumed his role as prez – he would wonder how to handle something and in his mind's eye he would see wierwille dealing with it…ah yes, the secrets of way corps indoctrination revealed! 

when reading KJV - sometimes I'll read a verse and it's like a Pop-Up video - I remember some goofy off the wall or erroneous comment wierwille said about it.

 

 

 

True story on how unrealistic PFAL is: I left TWI in ’86, while serving out my way corps assignment of an area coordinator.  I had already notified LCM and the Rome City campus coordinator of my decision. I had met with all the Twig coordinators I was responsible for overseeing, read the correspondence to and from LCM & campus coordinator, went over some other “edicts” from HQ, select notes from listening to Passing of the Patriarch when I was in-rez, and shared some very revealing highlights passed on to me by clergy who were at the all clergy meeting with Chris G* * r. After stepping down I still visited all the fellowships for a while – but it got very awkward.

 

I didn’t really know what I was doing – and didn’t want to lead others astray – I did not want to teach “The Word” anymore. So, Twig visits were kind of depressing – as if it was my last chance to see my friends before I die. I’m not being melodramatic in my narrative – my life was so entangled with TWI the organization. As I began to realize it was a toxic relationship, I knew I had to sever it – and that was an awful feeling because mixed in with that dread were memories of good friends and fun experiences.

 

I ramped up my “investigative efforts” to sort things out. I hit the motherlode at an estate sale of a pastor – got a bunch of hardbound commentaries and some systematic theologies – real cheap $1 each the first day – went back the next day and got more at 50 cents each! I was reevaluating wierwille's doctrines. learning to reengage my cognitive skills...getting familiar with systematic theologies, hermeneutics and reputable Christian scholars, philosophers and Bible studies that didn't seem to have some hidden agenda or self-aggrandizing propaganda. 

 

 

I also focused on what wierwille said about his education.

Do you remember this gem from page 175 of the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” (by Elena S. Whiteside, co 1972, American Christian Press, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 72-89132), Whiteside quotes wierwille as he talked about his studies and influences:
“I don’t remember much of the past. I’ll have to renew my mind. Oh yes, did I tell you I taught at Gordon Divinity School? Homiletics was my specialty – that’s preaching. I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” 

In early June of 1987, I contacted The Moody Correspondence School Department of the Moody Bible Institute and spoke with Vivian Ruby in the Registrar’s Office. I was stunned to find out they had no record of wierwille completing a course with them. I couldn’t believe it. I didn’t want to believe it. I had to have something more tangible than a stranger's voice over the phone telling me that in effect wierwille lied about something in his education. I asked her to mail me that information in a letter with Moody Correspondence School’s official letterhead.

You can see the letter here >   from Moody Correspondence School 1987    . Ironically I found myself using one of wierwille's criteria against him. Remember in the class where he said something like if Jesus lied to us in John 10:10 then how can you trust what he said about other stuff? I began to feel that way about wierwille. was he a shifty con artist?

 

 

 

my investigation picked up steam. I went to the library and looked into books on cults – weren’t many. But I found one of particular interest because TWI was named in it -  The Kingdom of the Cults   . 

 

 

 

One day I took the book to a make-your-own-copies store. While I’m copying pages, one of the WOWs in our area happened to walk in. He already knew I had resigned (from the meetings I mentioned earlier – and I had talked with him and his WOW coordinator a few times since then) – but I didn’t want him to see I was photocopying Kingdom of the Cults – I was afraid he had not gone that far spiritually     – maybe he would think I got possessed…anyway to distract him from my task – I asked him what he was doing there – he said he was going to make copies of his resume and added “I had to quit my job – I just couldn’t think the Word there.” It’s a quirky yet sad memory that comes to me occasionally when I reflect. It epitomizes on how impotent “The Word”  aka PFAL is.

 

What Would wierwille Think?  if wierwille was still alive to counsel that WOW, he would have probably told him to renew his mind and get back to work. Of course, wierwille who was lazy and egotistical didn’t practice what he preached but he probably thought  he did. Don’t get me wrong – thinking is important – but delusions are not! What Would Jesus Do? This post is so ungodly long as it is – so I won’t elaborate on gospel examples – but I don’t think Jesus would have been so out of touch as to spout pat answers like “just renew your mind” or “just think the Word there”. Jesus would probably have visited with the WOW to find out what bugged him about work. I’m thinking of resurrected and unrecognized Jesus talking to his disciples in   Luke 24:13 – 49 . You know Jesu knew how bummed out they were – yet he plays dumb and innocently asks “what’s up guys?” 

Christ was absent from wierwille's idelogy....And it seems anything of noble substance, worthwhile achievements, truth, honesty and compassion were almost nonexistent in his life!

 

~ ~ ~ ~

Love is better than knowledge     I Corinthians 13

I think wierwille’s ideology has some significant Gnosticism-like “genes” coiled up in its DNA. – in Gnosticism knowledge is “salvation” in that when one has attained a certain knowledge one is rescued from sin and its consequences, protected from harm or a dire situation. Such superior knowledge can even give one the ability to alter reality.

 

I’ve shared a lot of this stuff elsewhere – but it’s very applicable on this thread…Gnosticism is an elusive and often misunderstood term. A simplified definition of it is to say it is mainly about “salvation” or a way to escape the evil and imperfect materialism of this world through a secret and special knowledge. I'm sorry for this gosh awful post about  Gnosticism   zzzzzZZZZ ZZzzz  but I think it's so intriguing to see some of the origins of wierwille's ideology.

 

okay, please bear with me folks - deep dive coming up  

 

Gnosticism is not really a definite homogenous religious system – it is so diverse. It is more along the lines of a mental construct - something existing only in the mind. It is an intellectual fabrication made from ideas and not physical components. It is only conceptual, not real. The ancient Gnostics did not know they were “Gnostics” – that is what others began to call them. Among the many groups that are identified as Gnostics, there was usually a big emphasis on esoteric knowledge.

 

Henry Longueville Mansel    (1820 – 1871) was an English philosopher and ecclesiastic, summed up the three principal sources of Gnosticism:

1. Platonism – its philosophical form and tendencies.

2. The Dualism of the Persian religion – speculations about the origin of evil and emanations which is an idea in the cosmology - emanation is from the Latin emanare meaning "to flow from" and is the mode by which all things are derived from the first reality, or principle. All things are derived from the first reality or perfect God by steps of degradation to lesser degrees of the first reality or God, and at every step the emanating beings are less pure, less perfect, less divine.

3. Buddhism which had an antagonism between matter and spirit – and the unreality of derived existence – the germ of Docetism which in Gnosticism taught that Christ's body was not human but either a phantasm or of real but celestial substance, and that therefore his sufferings were only apparent.

If you really think about it, you can see wierwille's ideology was somewhat tinged with the above 3 sources.

 

Henry Melvill Gwatkin  (1844 – 1916) was an English theologian and church historian, said Gnosticism is Christianity perverted by learning and speculation. The intellectual pride of the Gnostics changed the gospel into a philosophy and had a tendency to regard knowledge as superior to faith and that it was something only held by the more enlightened since ordinary Christians did not possess this secret higher doctrine. Also, it was essential to view matter and spirit as distinctly separate – and matter being intrinsically evil and the source from which all evil has arisen.

 

Some scholars have said certain issues that Paul addresses in various letters are probably an incipient form of what later became known as Gnosticism; at its early stage it was essentially a religious-philosophical fused attitude, not a well-defined system of thought.   The esoteric exclusiveness and asceticism of its adherents had a negative effect on Christian freedom and was derogatory to the idea that the Holy Spirit could dwell in our evil human bodies – see the correlation in passages that correct the error of some seeking spiritual deliverance through philosophy and ascetic practices of self-abasement and severity to the body   Colossians 2   - and how knowledge puffs up  I Corinthians 13     and   Paul warning against myths,  speculations and vain discussions in  I Timothy 1    .

 

In the epistles of John we find Gnosticism was distinguished by an unethical, loveless intellectualism and repeatedly condemned antinomianism (which is a belief which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms). It’s not that hard to see how one gets from the asceticism of Gnosticism to libertarianism that advocates total freedom – especially in thought and conduct. If one views spirit as good and matter as evil, then it’s possible one can slip into an indifference toward anything done in the physical realm.

 

Consider how this belief might affect a person's attitude and way of life. If you eliminate the FEAR of consequences, you still don’t prevent the outcome of a foolhardy decision. When you attempt to undermine life’s school of hard knocks you cheat yourself out of learning experiences and blunt one of the keenest essentials of human nature – our self-preservation instinct.

Imagine if you were guaranteed a doctorate degree regardless of whether or not you learned anything, did any of the work, attended any classes or paid any tuition. How motivated would you be to participate in the program? And if you did participate in any of it, how much would you apply yourself? Be honest.      The point is – if one considers the spirit as already perfect and nothing can affect its status then why be concerned about anything done in the physical realm.

 

wierwille’s big idea of the law of believing / magical thinking became sand in the machinery of my belief system. I believe love is the best lubricant to gear up for doing good.

 

I believe there is something much more transformative in a loving relationship. A good relationship has something wonderfully reciprocal about it. I love my wife and she returns the sentiment. We are both changed. The relationship deepens. An even stronger bond is formed…I love my recliner, but it doesn’t return my love.  Sometimes a strong bond happens with my recliner – and that’s when my loving wife gently nudges me and says “You fell asleep during The West Wing. Do you want me to back it up – or tell you about the episode?” That’s love, people! 

 

Here's a revelation of something that some TWI folks really don’t know. Jesus said the cornerstone of the Jewish faith is LOVE !!!!   Matthew 22: 34 -40

 

The absence of a transformative relationship with Christ was a mysterious and ignored issue in my life during the 12 years that I was involved in a supposedly Christian ministry....as far as Christ’ immanence goes – he was right there with me even back then - but by me being unaware of that meant we both missed out.

 

If my Christianity is based on knowledge alone - then I am autonomous. Any assessment, changes or improvements of my lifestyle are self-referential. I might think I’m doing great. I could ignore some moral demands of the Bible because I think my knowledge of the really spiritual stuff makes me a great believer. Stagnation! Ugh!

I think a relationship with the ever-present Christ will tend to be a lot more dynamic  

Edited September 28, 2022 by T-Bone
WWTED – what would the editor do?

[Rocky]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

I suppose a lot of posters here would find the wording of the "HIDDEN Christ"  just as repulsive as the absent Christ?

I like them both.

Why do you "suppose" anything about anyone?

Why would you not simply pose the question, do any of the posters here find the expressions "HIDDEN Christ" or "absent Christ" repulsive, or otherwise believe they are inappropriate? If so, please explain the reason for your belief and/or feelings.

[Mike]

 

Acts Chapter 1

⁶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

⁷ And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

⁸ But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

⁹ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up [away from them] ; and a cloud received him out of their sight [hidden].

¹⁰ And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven [far away] as he went up [away from them], behold, two men stood by them [near] in white apparel;

¹¹ Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you [gone] into heaven [far away], shall so come [be present again] in like manner as ye have seen him go [away] into heaven[far away].

 Timeline:

Verse  6 – Jesus physically present

Verse  7  – Jesus physically present

Verse  8 – Jesus physically present

Verse  9 – Jesus far away, and then hidden

Verse 10 –  Jesus absent, but only temporary

Verse 11 –  Jesus taken up, absent, gone

 

 

 

*/*/*/*/*

 

 

 

Now, after getting the timeline on his absence straight, it would next be good to discern what VPW meant by “Christ” in the phrase “absent Christ.”

Did he mean the man Jesus, or the man Jesus Christ, or the man Christ Jesus, or the man Christ ?… 

OR did he mean the gift of holy spirit, which is Christ in you?  

OR did he mean “the anointing or the unction," which is what “Christ” means.

I can see from previous posting that some of you think it’s Jesus the man, and some think it’s holy spirit.

Well, we know that holy spirit came in abundance 10 days later, so that is not absent.  And First John tells us we have the anointing.

That just leaves Jesus, the man. 

From what I see in all his teachings, I put my money on VPW meaning “the absent man” when he said the absent Christ.  Plus, that's what Acts says.

I realize that Christ is not Jesus’, the man’s last name.  But in that phrase VPW referred to the man, Christ, by the title or the description of specialness that makes up the meaning of the word “Christ.”

Is the man Jesus present or absent?

If present now, then how will he be described at the Return?  
More present?  I think not.

 

 

 

*/*/*/*/


Now, instead of getting upset over the absent man, Christ Jesus, I have a much more intriguing question.

Instead of complaining that VPW made Jesus absent, why not ask yourself WHY do we read in Acts above that Jesus went far away and hidden by an act of God, presided over by angels.

WHY would God be as nasty as you all say VPW was, and hide Jesus from us, take him far away, make him absent?

Why did Acts 1:9 happen?

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up [away from them] ; and a cloud received him out of their sight [hidden].”

What is the GREAT benefit for us in God causing Jesus, the man, to be absent?

WHY,  WHY, WHY did God do such a thing?
 

*/*/*

Those of you who think that Jesus, the man, is NOT absent will likely miss the great benefit God established for us in moving Jesus far away and hiding him.

  
This is a bit counter-intuitive, like the angel with flaming sword guarding the entrance to Paradise after Adam and Eve were cast out.   That flaming sword looks like a negative to us, at first, but it is actually a GREAT blessing that God blocked Paradise, and made it “absent” this way.

The ”absent Christ” looks like it is negative, until you flash on God’s reasons for making Christ (the man) absent.

Does anyone know WHY God made Paradise absent, and why that was a blessing?

Does anyone here, besides me, know WHY it was a GREAT blessing to us that God had Acts 1:9 happen, and Jesus moved far away, totally hidden, and absent until sent back.

Has anyone noticed that absent and sent are opposites?
Absent is like “sent away,” just like we read in Acts 1:9.

And if any are unhappy with me emphasizing “the man” try retemorizing this:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
1 Timothy 2:5

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Mike

[Mike]

New International Version
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

Berean Standard Bible
After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
 

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when he had said these things, as they saw him, he was taken up and a cloud received him and he was hidden from their eyes.

NET Bible
After he had said this, while they were watching, he was lifted up and a cloud hid him from their sight.
 

[Mike]

An interesting thought flashed across my mind. Tell me it this rings accurate.  If not I will check the video.
 
In the Rock of Ages movie, there is a scene with VPW talking to a little boy.   VPW asks him "Where's Jesus?"  The little boy points up.  VPW points to the little boy's chest and says "He's in there."  or something like that.

Here we have VPW condescending way down to the little boy's vocabulary, and really asked the boy "Where is Christ?" ... meaning holy spirit.   That holy spirit, Christ in you, is within every believer.

Context helps not only in Biblical interpretation but everywhere and in everything.
 

[Nathan_Jr]

27 minutes ago, Mike said:

Does anyone know WHY God made Paradise absent, and why that was a blessing?

Does anyone here, besides me, know WHY it was a GREAT blessing to us that God had Acts 1:9 happen, and Jesus moved far away, totally hidden, and absent until sent back.

Has anyone noticed that absent and sent are opposites?
Absent is like “sent away,” just like we read in Acts 1:9.

Pretend I'm a golden retriever. Go ahead and answer your questions for me. 

[Mike]

How about I just throw you a bone?

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Mike

[Nathan_Jr]

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

An interesting thought flashed across my mind. Tell me it this rings accurate.  If not I will check the video.
 
In the Rock of Ages movie, there is a scene with VPW talking to a little boy.   VPW asks him "Where's Jesus?"  The little boy points up.  VPW points to the little boy's chest and says "He's in there."  or something like that.

Here we have VPW condescending way down to the little boy's vocabulary, and really asked the boy "Where is Christ?" ... meaning holy spirit.   That holy spirit, Christ in you, is within every believer.

Context helps not only in Biblical interpretation but everywhere and in everything.
 

So victor didn't say what he meant and meant what he said where he said it, how he said it, and why he said it?

If victor meant to say Christ, he would have said it as T7TMOG. What an opportunity T7TMOG missed in teaching that distinction. Did victor say Santa Clause brought those presents, but he really meant your parents bought them?

I guess if you have to MAKE it fit...

[Nathan_Jr]

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

How about I just throw you a bone?

 

How bout you just explain your beliefs.

I don't pretend to know, that's why I asked.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Nathan_Jr

[Mike]

Maybe, but you ought to study nothing but the Church Epistles for 3 months first, so that you can understand my beliefs.

I asked 2 moderately difficult questions.  Why is Paradise hidden or absent?   Why is Jesus hidden or absent?

If you had studied VPW's teachings better you would know the answer. Instead you criticize what you haven't yet understood.

I will let the questions sit, so that others can exercise their memories.

Tell me, Nathan_Jr, what do you plan to do with the answers, should you understand them?

[Nathan_Jr]

13 minutes ago, Mike said:

Maybe, but you ought to study nothing but the Church Epistles for 3 months first, so that you can understand my beliefs.

I asked 2 moderately difficult questions.  Why is Paradise hidden or absent?   Why is Jesus hidden or absent?

If you had studied VPW's teachings better you would know the answer. Instead you criticize what you haven't yet understood.

I will let the questions sit, so that others can exercise their memories.

Tell me, Nathan_Jr, what do you plan to do with the answers, should you understand them?

I don't criticize anything I don't understand. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but I mostly ask questions here. If I understand something, I may present that understanding, or not. But if I know anything at all, it's only because I first humbly admit to knowing nothing.

My questions are real and honest and without pretense. If you don't know the answer to the questions, or don't feel like answering them, just say so.

[Nathan_Jr]

25 minutes ago, Mike said:

Tell me, Nathan_Jr, what do you plan to do with the answers, should you understand them?

I don't plan to do anything. I don't pretend to understand hardcore Christian fundamentalism. So if I ask a doctrinal question about what one believes the Bible to mean, it is because I am curious.

This is a discussion forum. Questions, answers, memories, speculations, opinions, facts, feelings, histories, beliefs... All presented as food to either make one well or make one sick or to simply snack on while doing something else.

[waysider]

20 minutes ago, Mike said:

Maybe, but you ought to study nothing but the Church Epistles for 3 months first, so that you can understand my beliefs.

Do I really need to study nothing but the Church Epistles for 3 months to understand your beliefs? You've been carrying on about them for the better part of 20 years.

 

There's no "hidden message" in PFAL or VPW's teachings. No deeply profound truths. It's sophomoric drivel, at best.

 

If you really thought you had found some sort of cryptic, mystic meaning, why would you choose to keep its meaning hidden? 

 

PFAL is a run-of-the mill Bible class, not too unlike, in essence, the thousands that came before it and thousands that have followed. We weren't messengers of a noble cause. We were a bunch of kids who got sucked into a religious cult. The only thing I see "missing" is a willingness to accept reality.

 

 

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, waysider said:

Do I really need to study nothing but the Church Epistles for 3 months to understand your beliefs? You've been carrying on about them for the better part of 20 years.

 

There's no "hidden message" in PFAL or VPW's teachings. No deeply profound truths. It's sophomoric drivel, at best.

 

If you really thought you had found some sort of cryptic, mystic meaning, why would you choose to keep its meaning hidden? 

 

PFAL is a run-of-the mill Bible class, not too unlike, in essence, the thousands that came before it and thousands that have followed. We weren't messengers of a noble cause. We were a bunch of kids who got sucked into a religious cult. The only thing I see "missing" is a willingness to accept reality.

 

 

Does that mean you can't answer the two questions?

Why did God make Paradise hidden or absent?

Why did God make the man Jesus hidden or absent?