The Absent Christ?

[T-Bone]

For what it’s worth some online commentaries of     John 14:12 that suggest the greater works is the spreading of the Gospel…the following are a few excerpts from Bible Hub’s commentaries:

And greater works than these shall he do.—Comp. Notes on John 5:20, and on Matthew 21:21-22. The explanation of these greater works is not to be sought in the individual instances of miraculous power exercised by the apostles, but in the whole work of the Church. The Day of Pentecost witnessed the first fulfilment of this prophecy; but it has been fulfilled also in every great moral and spiritual victory. Every revival of a truly religious spirit has been an instance of it; every mission-field has been a witness to it. In every child of man brought to see the Father, and know the Father’s love as revealed in Jesus Christ, has been a work such as He did. In the world-wide extent of Christianity there is a work greater even than any which He Himself did in the flesh. He left His kingdom as one of the smallest of the influences on the earth; but it has grown up as a mighty power over all the kingdoms of the world, and all that is purest and best in civilisation and culture has found shelter in its branches.   

Because I go unto my Father.—The better reading is, because I go unto the Father. The words are to be connected not with one clause only, but with all the earlier parts of the verse. They are the reason why the believer shall do the works that Christ does, as well as the reason why he shall do greater works. The earthly work of Christ will have ceased, and He will have gone to the Father. The believers will be then His representatives on earth, as He will be their representative in heaven. Therefore will they do His works, and the works shall be greater because He will be at the Father’s right hand, and will do whatsoever they shall ask in His name.    Ellicott's Commentary

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

…notice the remarkable connection of the words with which we are dealing. ‘He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do,’ and the ground of that is ‘because I go to My Father,’ and whatsoever the believer ‘shall ask, I will do.’…

 

Here, then, there is clearly stated this great thought, that Christ’s removal from the world is not the end of His activity in the world and on material things, but that, absent, He still is a present power, and having passed through death, and been removed from sense, He can still operate upon the things round us, and move these according to His will. We are not to water down such words as these into any such thought as that the continuous influence of the memory and history of His past will be a present power in all ages…

 

…‘The works that I do shall He do also’; because ‘whatsoever ye shall ask I will do it.’

 

We have not to think only of a Lord whose activity for us, beneficent and marvellous as it is, was finished in the misty past upon the Cross, nor have we only to think of a Lord whose activity for us, mighty and comforting as it is to all the solitary and struggling, is wrought as from the heights of the heavens, but we have to think of One who is beside us and in us…

…‘I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me…

 

…And it is in regard to the application of the finished work of Christ to the actual accomplishment of its contemplated consequences, that the comparison is drawn between the limited sphere and the small results of Christ’s work upon earth, and the worldwide sweep and majestic magnitude of the results of the application of that work by His servants’ witnessing work. The wider and more complete spiritual results achieved by the ministration of the servants than by the ministration of the Lord is the point of comparison here. And I need only remind you that the poorest Christian who can go to a brother soul, and by word or life can draw that soul to a Christ whom it apprehends as dying for its sins and raised for its glorifying, does a mightier thing than it was possible for the Master to do by life or lip whilst He was here upon earth. For the Redemption had to be completed in act before it could be proclaimed in word; and Christ had no such weapon in His hands with which to draw men’s souls, and cast down the high places of evil, as we have when we can say, ‘We testify unto you that the Son of God hath died for our sins, and is raised again according to the Scriptures.’ …      MacLaren's Expositions

 

~ ~ ~ ~

John 14:12. ἀμὴν … ποιήσει. The first encouragement is the assurance that through Christ’s absence the disciples would be enabled to do greater works than Jesus Himself had done. These “greater” works were the spiritual effects accomplished by the disciples, especially the great novel fact of conversion. See this developed in Parker’s The Paraclete. Such works were to be possible ὅτι … πορεύομαι. It was by founding a spiritual religion and altering men’s views of the spiritual world Christ enabled His followers to do these greater works. Here this is explained on the plane of the disciples’ thoughts and in this form: “I go to my Father, the source of all power, and whatever you ask in my name I will do it”.      Expositor's Greek Testament

 

~ ~ ~ ~

and greater works than these There is no reference to healing by means of S. Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15) or of handkerchiefs that had touched S. Paul (Acts 19:12). Even from a human point of view no miracle wrought by an Apostle is greater than the raising of Lazarus. But from a spiritual point of view no such comparisons are admissible; to Omnipotence all works are alike. These ‘greater works’ refer rather to the results of Pentecost; the victory over Judaism and Paganism, two powers which for the moment were victorious over Christ (Luke 22:53). Christ’s work was confined to Palestine and had but small success; the Apostles went everywhere and converted thousands.   

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

 

End of excerpts from:     Bible Hub commentaries: John 14:12

 ~ ~ ~ ~ 

 

Common to these above commentaries is the general idea of Jesus Christ being present with the church to spread the Gospel.

And there are some similarities and differences when I compare what I remember of PFAL and at other times when the “greater works” came up:

Similarities to above commentary excerpts:

In PFAL wierwille did emphasize it was Christ in each believer and that during his earthly ministry he was limited in scope. With the Lord present and at work in each believer, Christ is no longer limited in time or place. Believers are representatives of Jesus Christ.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

Differences to above commentary excerpts:

I also recall wierwille made some variations from pretty good, to bad, to worse: like the greater works was leading someone into the new birth…another variant was leading someone into speaking in tongues…and at its worse…well…to address the elephant in the room – the TOP PRIORITY of TWI-followers was always to promote the PFAL class – and not really about spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. Sure, you can say Jesus Christ is in PFAL – but he is more like window dressing in the earlier sessions of the class – kind of a bait-and-switch thing. A new student is presented with a marketing campaign that promises material abundance and the ability to alter reality through wierwille’s pseudo-Christianity. The “ministry” of wierwille had nothing to do with adding souls to the invisible church. It was about   adding   devoted    followers of the Lord   ….the retention of loyal paying customers who bought into his special brand of bull$hit.

 

[Nathan_Jr]

40 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

In PFAL wierwille did emphasize it was Christ in each believer and that during his earthly ministry he was limited in scope. With the Lord present and at work in each believer, Christ is no longer limited in time or place. Believers are representatives of Jesus Christ.

Thanks. So victor teaches both an absent and a present Christ? Or is it Christ is absent but the Lord is present? Does he "teach" a distinction?

Hey. I didn't write the book. The way he made it all fit together, that's the original work. It's so simple.

[T-Bone]

10 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Thanks. So victor teaches both an absent and a present Christ? Or is it Christ is absent but the Lord is present? Does he "teach" a distinction?

Hey. I didn't write the book. The way he made it all fit together, that's the original work. It's so simple.

well...to give you the six-of-one-half-a-dozen-of-the-other explanation: one of the most notable features of wierwille's ideology is its lack of consistency, coherency, and clarity. 

[Nathan_Jr]

16 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

well...to give you the six-of-one-half-a-dozen-of-the-other explanation: one of the most notable features of wierwille's ideology is its lack of consistency, coherency, and clarity. 

Self-contradictory doctrines fit like a music coordinator's hand in a glove.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
The epistles, the epistles, and nothing but the epistles.

[Twinky]

Thanks, T-Bone.  Your long post above is very helpful.

[Twinky]

5 hours ago, waysider said:

It wasn't the new birth per se. It was the leading someone to it that was the work.

And of course, VPW "led" us all to the new birth by teaching us "the word" and then how to SIT.  So VPW has done very many "works" and perhaps that makes him greater than Jesus many times over.    (Barf.)

Those commentaries quoted by T-Bone above are helpful to flesh out the thinking behind what was surely something that VPW appropriated without giving any sufficient background. 

Perhaps he pinched bits from Bullinger too.  Here, in How to Enjoy the Bible, Bullinger suggests that we are absent from the Lord - not that the Lord is absent from us.  A very different kettle of fish.

Quote

Now, while in "our earthly house of this tabernacle" we are "absent from the Lord." Therefore it is that we are earnestly longing for that resurrection day ...

Edited September 13, 2022 by Twinky

[OldSkool]

3 hours ago, Twinky said:

And of course, VPW "led" us all to the new birth by teaching us "the word" and then how to SIT.  So VPW has done very many "works" and perhaps that makes him greater than Jesus many times over.    (Barf.)

Those commentaries quoted by T-Bone above are helpful to flesh out the thinking behind what was surely something that VPW appropriated without giving any sufficient background. 

Perhaps he pinched bits from Bullinger too.  Here, in How to Enjoy the Bible, Bullinger suggests that we are absent from the Lord - not that the Lord is absent from us.  A very different kettle of fish.

 

Great points Twinky, T-Bone. Wierwille was a mess, and it quickly becomes obvious that he was speaking on topics he really did not understand. Wierwille shows his true ignorance by how he used to slam Matthew, Mark, Luke, John as being insignificant. Those books are vital in understanding who our Lord is and how he lived, and what he did in his ministry to Israel. You really cannot have a complete picture of Jesus Christ without the gospels. When one steps back and considers the gospels along with the book of Acts and the church epsistles then a more complete picture of who Jesus Christ is today and what he is doing today comes into view. In the book of Acts Jesus Christ is interacting with people all throughout the entire book - thus showing that he isn't absent but is functioning as the head of the Body, etc. He isn't present on the earth in a flesh and bones body either. I think that's the part that tripped up wierwille and a very telling trip because I don't think he could understand spiritual matters to the degree that he said of himself. Jesus Christ has been changed at his resurection. In the same manner we shall also be changed. I have no idea what he has been changed into other than the few records showing him after his resurection. When you consider that God has given everything into Jesus Christ's hands and that he functions as God's right hand man, in a similar manner as Joseph did Pharoah, and Christ is the head of the Body I would say that he is quite busy and in no way absent. He has simply been changed and promoted to second in command. I would say Jesus Christ is quite busy.

2 Corinthians 5:16“Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”

[T-Bone]

9 hours ago, OldSkool said:

it quickly becomes obvious that he was speaking on topics he really did not understand. Wierwille shows his true ignorance by how he used to slam Matthew, Mark, Luke, John as being insignificant. Those books are vital in understanding who our Lord is and how he lived, and what he did in his ministry to Israel. You really cannot have a complete picture of Jesus Christ without the gospels. When one steps back and considers the gospels along with the book of Acts and the church epsistles then a more complete picture of who Jesus Christ is today and what he is doing today comes into view. In the book of Acts Jesus Christ is interacting with people all throughout the entire book - thus showing that he isn't absent but is functioning as the head of the Body, etc. He isn't present on the earth in a flesh and bones body either. I think that's the part that tripped up wierwille and a very telling trip because I don't think he could understand spiritual matters to the degree that he said of himself. Jesus Christ has been changed at his resurection. In the same manner we shall also be changed. I have no idea what he has been changed into other than the few records showing him after his resurection. When you consider that God has given everything into Jesus Christ's hands and that he functions as God's right hand man, in a similar manner as Joseph did Pharoah, and Christ is the head of the Body I would say that he is quite busy and in no way absent. He has simply been changed and promoted to second in command. I would say Jesus Christ is quite busy.

2 Corinthians 5:16“Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”

 

Your II Corinthians reference got me thinking…Since wierwille leaned so heavily on fundamentalism I wonder if that strict literal interpretation of scripture was one of the factors that handicapped him in having a much broader understanding of Jesus Christ’s various roles. Fundamentalism usually emphasizes authority and fixed creeds. Modernism usually emphasizes freedom and progress in religious thought.

Here's the passage in another version:

So, from now on we regard no one from a human point of view [according to worldly standards and values]. Though we have known Christ from a human point of view, now we no longer know Him in this way.    II Corinthians 5:16 Amplified

 

Before   Paul’s conversion he evaluated people – even Jesus Christ, by human standards. We know from scripture, THE  persecutor of the Church, Saul  (later called Paul) regarded Jesus as a false messiah – whose followers needed to be “taken out” ( Acts 26 ). Paul said he now knows Jesus Christ in a spiritual – or transcendent way…I’m just thinking out loud here: perhaps wierwille was so hung up on wanting to see exact temporal and spatial designations in scripture because that’s all he could relate to from a strictly human point of view. If I am here now - then I’m not there…If Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven and is now seated at the right hand of God, then he’s not here.

There’s no better example to show wierwille’s misconception of spiritual matters than his Great Principle  “theorem”  . God who is spirit teaches his creation in you – which is now your spirit – and your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act.      After Grease Spotters have shot so many holes in it – I like to think of it as the Grate Cheese Principle.  And it’s some stinky cheese at that!   someone please activate the  fart   fan     exhaust fan.  ...Here’s a quick reference   -  WordWolf debunks the great principle   - and folks can use Grease Spots search feature to find more. wierwille was a boldfaced bull$hit artist – if God who is spirit, can only speak to what he is – which is spirit, then how in the world did he talk to Adam and Eve after the fall? I don’t think wierwille knew squat about spiritual matters, how God works, what God can do, what Jesus Christ is doing…yeah, he’s the dumb-a$$ who said in PFAL God would have to change all the laws of the universe not to accommodate your believing. I’m not saying I know much about spiritual matters – but since I left TWI, I’m no longer  THAT STUPID   and  ARROGANT  to tell others what God Almighty can and cannot do.

And right now, Jesus Christ probably has an immeasurable amount of stuff on his plate – at least lot more than what my pea-brain can conceive.

Edited September 13, 2022 by T-Bone
taking the place of the absent typos

[OldSkool]

58 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

Your II Corinthians reference got me thinking…Since wierwille leaned so heavily on fundamentalism I wonder if that strict literal interpretation of scripture was one of the factors that handicapped him in having a much broader understanding of Jesus Christ’s various roles. Fundamentalism usually emphasizes authority and fixed creeds. Modernism usually emphasizes freedom and progress in religious thought.

Here's the passage in another version:

So, from now on we regard no one from a human point of view [according to worldly standards and values]. Though we have known Christ from a human point of view, now we no longer know Him in this way.    II Corinthians 5:16 Amplified

 

Before   Paul’s conversion he evaluated people – even Jesus Christ, by human standards. We know from scripture, THE  persecutor of the Church, Saul  (later called Paul) regarded Jesus as a false messiah – whose followers needed to be “taken out” ( Acts 26 ). Paul said he now knows Jesus Christ in a spiritual – or transcendent way…I’m just thinking out loud here: perhaps wierwille was so hung up on wanting to see exact temporal and spatial designations in scripture because that’s all he could relate to from a strictly human point of view. If I am here now - then I’m not there…If Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven and is now seated at the right hand of God, then he’s not here.

There’s no better example to show wierwille’s misconception of spiritual matters than his Great Principle  “theorem”  . God who is spirit teaches his creation in you – which is now your spirit – and your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act.      After Grease Spotters have shot so many holes in it – I like to think of it as the Grate Cheese Principle.  And it’s some stinky cheese at that!   someone please activate the  fart   fan     exhaust fan.  ...Here’s a quick reference   -  WordWolf debunks the great principle   - and folks can use Grease Spots search feature to find more. wierwille was a boldfaced bull$hit artist – if God who is spirit, can only speak to what he is – which is spirit, then how in the world did he talk to Adam and Eve after the fall? I don’t think wierwille knew squat about spiritual matters, how God works, what God can do, what Jesus Christ is doing…yeah, he’s the dumb-a$$ who said in PFAL God would have to change all the laws of the universe not to accommodate your believing. I’m not saying I know much about spiritual matters – but since I left TWI, I’m no longer  THAT STUPID   and  ARROGANT  to tell others what God Almighty can and cannot do.

And right now, Jesus Christ probably has an immeasurable amount of stuff on his plate – at least lot more than what my pea-brain can conceive.

Awesome post. Never considered Paul and his relationship with Jesus Christ in this light. You got me to thinking that he set out for Damascus supposing only that Jesus Christ was a false messiach and his followers needed to be dealt with. Yet it was on that road to Damascus where Jesus Christ appeared to him and asked him why he was persecuting him?

I'd say that Paul got to know Jesus Christ rather well after that initial encounter.

Judging from your posts I'd say you have an excellent understanding of spiritual matters. And I have gotta say that TWI loves to say what God can and cannot do. I've heard so many limitations placed on God Almighty during my time in the way or saying what God would have done - as if they know. I remember rolling my ankle playing ball before going out witnessing with way disciples the following day and I couldn't go. So my branch coordinator at the time calls my fellowship coordinator to tell him to tell me that I had missed revelation because God would have given me revelation to not roll my ankle before such a spiritual event.

[Nathan_Jr]

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

And I have gotta say that TWI loves to say what God can and cannot do. I've heard so many limitations placed on God Almighty during my time in the way or saying what God would have done - as if they know.

TRUTH.

This can't be said enough.

 

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

So my branch coordinator at the time calls my fellowship coordinator to tell him to tell me that I had missed revelation because God would have given me revelation to not roll my ankle before such a spiritual event.

On that day, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near these people or the people who "taught" them. 

 

Bless their little black hearts - they have so much to unlearn.

[WordWolf]

3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Awesome post. Never considered Paul and his relationship with Jesus Christ in this light. You got me to thinking that he set out for Damascus supposing only that Jesus Christ was a false messiach and his followers needed to be dealt with. Yet it was on that road to Damascus where Jesus Christ appeared to him and asked him why he was persecuting him?

I'd say that Paul got to know Jesus Christ rather well after that initial encounter.

Judging from your posts I'd say you have an excellent understanding of spiritual matters. And I have gotta say that TWI loves to say what God can and cannot do. I've heard so many limitations placed on God Almighty during my time in the way or saying what God would have done - as if they know. I remember rolling my ankle playing ball before going out witnessing with way disciples the following day and I couldn't go. So my branch coordinator at the time calls my fellowship coordinator to tell him to tell me that I had missed revelation because God would have given me revelation to not roll my ankle before such a spiritual event.

If your branch coordinator was so in tune, he should have ministered to you and healed your ankle, THEN told you off.  You would have been a LOT more interested in what he had to say at that point, he would definitely have had your attention.    And nobody give me the "he had to be in the same room first" because we know that's not a requirement. The centurion told Jesus that he was confident that if Jesus gave the order for his servant's healing here, it would be accomplished wherever the servant was.  (Yes, that level of confidence was something, and that man wasn't a Jew looking for the Messiah! He was just a man who heard that when this man prayed, results got resulted.) 

No, the branch coordinator was all talk and no power. 

[WordWolf]

14 hours ago, OldSkool said:

 

Great points Twinky, T-Bone. Wierwille was a mess, and it quickly becomes obvious that he was speaking on topics he really did not understand. Wierwille shows his true ignorance by how he used to slam Matthew, Mark, Luke, John as being insignificant. Those books are vital in understanding who our Lord is and how he lived, and what he did in his ministry to Israel. You really cannot have a complete picture of Jesus Christ without the gospels. When one steps back and considers the gospels along with the book of Acts and the church epsistles then a more complete picture of who Jesus Christ is today and what he is doing today comes into view. In the book of Acts Jesus Christ is interacting with people all throughout the entire book - thus showing that he isn't absent but is functioning as the head of the Body, etc. He isn't present on the earth in a flesh and bones body either. I think that's the part that tripped up wierwille and a very telling trip because I don't think he could understand spiritual matters to the degree that he said of himself. Jesus Christ has been changed at his resurection. In the same manner we shall also be changed. I have no idea what he has been changed into other than the few records showing him after his resurection. When you consider that God has given everything into Jesus Christ's hands and that he functions as God's right hand man, in a similar manner as Joseph did Pharoah, and Christ is the head of the Body I would say that he is quite busy and in no way absent. He has simply been changed and promoted to second in command. I would say Jesus Christ is quite busy.

2 Corinthians 5:16“Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.”

twi's fond of not getting that.   As far as they've taught, JC ascended and has sat like a bump on a log for 2000 years!    That doesn't even make sense on paper!

If he "ever lives to make intercession for the saints", that's a full-time job right there.  We also have an advocate (defense attorney) in Jesus Christ.  That's a full-time job right there, since the brethren also have an accuser.     Even if JC has not been performing the tasks of Chief Operations Officer or Executive VP, those would keep him quite busy. 

[WordWolf]

BTW, the "God gave manna, God is not manna" was a direct quote from Raf. 

 

For the curious, here's a breakdown on "the 5 things to know to receive anything from God."

Supposedly, they are:

1) What is available

2) How to receive it

3) What to do with it after you've got it

4) Your need must parallel your want

5) God's ability equals God's willingness.

Ok, here's how that nonsense breaks down...

1, 2 and 3 are not informative- they're what you do to get anything.  If you want to make a sandwich, you have to know there's fixings in the fridge.  Then you have to know how to go get them from the fridge, and assemble them in the bread.  Then you have to know how to shove the sammich into your piehole.  

How to receive a sandwich from the refrigerator: First you must know what is available, then you must know how to receive it, then you must know what to do after you've got it.

 

No, that was no revealing of some great secret there, in either case.

There's nothing in the actual Bible that says "needs must parallel wants." If anything, I can make a case for asking for what's promised,"  but, frankly, that's not REQUIRED for anything.   I would think approaching God with an attitude of humility would be more important than any of this-  I've certainly gotten better results that way- and far more SPECIFIC results that way. 

 

Finally, 5.  "God's ability equals God's willingness." This is a bit of nonsense that is not true.  God is able to destroy all life on Earth whenever he feels like it. (Job 34: 14-15

"¹⁴ If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

¹⁵ All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."   )

 

That's God's Ability.  He obviously is not WILLING to do so because we are still here.  So, God's Ability is not equal to God's Willingness.    God is All-Powerful.  He could reach in and destroy our free will.   He has the Ability to do so. He is NOT WILLING to do so.

 

Whatever vpw was plagiarizing there, again, was something he didn't understand (or he plagiarized nonsense, which is also possible.)

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, WordWolf said:

BTW, the "God gave manna, God is not manna" was a direct quote from Raf. 

 

For the curious, here's a breakdown on "the 5 things to know to receive anything from God."

Supposedly, they are:

1) What is available

2) How to receive it

3) What to do with it after you've got it

4) Your need must parallel your want

5) God's ability equals God's willingness.

Ok, here's how that nonsense breaks down...

1, 2 and 3 are not informative- they're what you do to get anything.  If you want to make a sandwich, you have to know there's fixings in the fridge.  Then you have to know how to go get them from the fridge, and assemble them in the bread.  Then you have to know how to shove the sammich into your piehole.  

How to receive a sandwich from the refrigerator: First you must know what is available, then you must know how to receive it, then you must know what to do after you've got it.

 

No, that was no revealing of some great secret there, in either case.

There's nothing in the actual Bible that says "needs must parallel wants." If anything, I can make a case for asking for what's promised,"  but, frankly, that's not REQUIRED for anything.   I would think approaching God with an attitude of humility would be more important than any of this-  I've certainly gotten better results that way- and far more SPECIFIC results that way. 

 

Finally, 5.  "God's ability equals God's willingness." This is a bit of nonsense that is not true.  God is able to destroy all life on Earth whenever he feels like it. (Job 34: 14-15

"¹⁴ If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

¹⁵ All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."   )

 

That's God's Ability.  He obviously is not WILLING to do so because we are still here.  So, God's Ability is not equal to God's Willingness.    God is All-Powerful.  He could reach in and destroy our free will.   He has the Ability to do so. He is NOT WILLING to do so.

 

Whatever vpw was plagiarizing there, again, was something he didn't understand (or he plagiarized nonsense, which is also possible.)

Let's assume victor got eye cancer from the lights while filming pfal, as claimed.
 

1. What's Avilable: A message from God in the form of a professional providing guidance for working with high-powered studio lights.

2. How to Receive it: Listen with meekness; discard willful ignorance. Discard ego.

3. What to do with it...: Follow the professional guidance step by step; heed all warnings and instructions; don't test God; thank those sent by God who are smarter than you.

4. Needs//Wants: You need your eyeballs to see, you need your organs to live. You want to see and you want to live.

5. Ability/Illingness: God is able to communicate in any form. He's obviously willing because he did.

Lessons: Don't test God. Don't ignore God. He won't tell you a second time until you obey the first time.

 

*"Results got resulted." Brilliant. I'm stealing that.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
This is a lesson in H-O-W

[Twinky]

10 hours ago, OldSkool said:

I remember rolling my ankle playing ball before going out witnessing with way disciples the following day and I couldn't go. So my branch coordinator at the time calls my fellowship coordinator to tell him to tell me that I had missed revelation because God would have given me revelation to not roll my ankle before such a spiritual event.

Or maybe God "gave" you that twisted ankle, so that one of these amazingly spiritual coordinators could demonstrate their amazing ability to minister the "gift of healing." /sarc/

Edited September 14, 2022 by Twinky

[OldSkool]

2 hours ago, Twinky said:

Or maybe God "gave" you that twisted ankle, so that one of these amazingly spiritual coordinators could demonstrate their amazing ability to minister the "gift of healing." /sarc/

I think you're on to somethin!....

[OldSkool]

9 hours ago, WordWolf said:

No, the branch coordinator was all talk and no power. 

That's been my experiences with the way international at all levels from Joe Believer to the BOD. Kinda sad really because they go around with a decent amount of huff n puff but have little to show for it. I was no different when I was in TWI. 

[OldSkool]

9 hours ago, WordWolf said:

twi's fond of not getting that.   As far as they've taught, JC ascended and has sat like a bump on a log for 2000 years!    That doesn't even make sense on paper!

If he "ever lives to make intercession for the saints", that's a full-time job right there.  We also have an advocate (defense attorney) in Jesus Christ.  That's a full-time job right there, since the brethren also have an accuser.     Even if JC has not been performing the tasks of Chief Operations Officer or Executive VP, those would keep him quite busy. 

Your post reminds me of why I started looking into the concept to begin with. The way talks so much about the accomplished works of Jesus Christ but otherwise they have nothing to do with him. He's just someone who did a job for God so we could claim all the stuff we need and live more abundantly. Hes the name sake on the end of a prayer and otherwise, according to TWI he's chillaxin until God says it's go time. Complete bollux. 

I was thinking last night though on Twinky post on the gospels and something clicked for me. Thanks Twinky. So the way I'm thinking about things at the moment is the gospels show Jesus Christ life and ministry to Israel where he went to his own, was rejected, etc. That part of the gospels is VITAL to understand because it's part of the basis for salvation to begin with. However, we are told to live as he lived, to walk as he walked, etc. The various epistles show what was given in the new birth, that those born again of God's spirit are a new creation in Christ and we definately are told how to walk in the spirit, etc. The church epistles are extremely important because they reveal the mystery, etc. But...where else can anyone go to LEARN how Jesus Christ lived....The Gospels! Of course we aren't required to don a tunic and sandals in our quest to live like him...remember we don't know Christ after the flesh any longer. So what are we to do? Learn to recognize the spirit behind how he walked and emulate those things he did from feeding the hungry to healing the sick to basically just loving people the way God would want us two. Those two laws the mosaic law was compressed into - Love God with all your heart sould mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. The gospels show us how he lived and show a pattern for us to emulate in our walk, thus it all comes full circle.

 

[OldSkool]

9 hours ago, WordWolf said:

BTW, the "God gave manna, God is not manna" was a direct quote from Raf. 

 

For the curious, here's a breakdown on "the 5 things to know to receive anything from God."

Supposedly, they are:

1) What is available

2) How to receive it

3) What to do with it after you've got it

4) Your need must parallel your want

5) God's ability equals God's willingness.

Ok, here's how that nonsense breaks down...

1, 2 and 3 are not informative- they're what you do to get anything.  If you want to make a sandwich, you have to know there's fixings in the fridge.  Then you have to know how to go get them from the fridge, and assemble them in the bread.  Then you have to know how to shove the sammich into your piehole.  

How to receive a sandwich from the refrigerator: First you must know what is available, then you must know how to receive it, then you must know what to do after you've got it.

 

No, that was no revealing of some great secret there, in either case.

There's nothing in the actual Bible that says "needs must parallel wants." If anything, I can make a case for asking for what's promised,"  but, frankly, that's not REQUIRED for anything.   I would think approaching God with an attitude of humility would be more important than any of this-  I've certainly gotten better results that way- and far more SPECIFIC results that way. 

 

Finally, 5.  "God's ability equals God's willingness." This is a bit of nonsense that is not true.  God is able to destroy all life on Earth whenever he feels like it. (Job 34: 14-15

"¹⁴ If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

¹⁵ All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."   )

 

That's God's Ability.  He obviously is not WILLING to do so because we are still here.  So, God's Ability is not equal to God's Willingness.    God is All-Powerful.  He could reach in and destroy our free will.   He has the Ability to do so. He is NOT WILLING to do so.

 

Whatever vpw was plagiarizing there, again, was something he didn't understand (or he plagiarized nonsense, which is also possible.)

Ok, I could have done this differently with a multi-quote instead of several posts...Moderators please refrain from throwing rocks at me...lol..my apologies.

 

Dude --  this is one of the best post I've come across in a long time. Thanks!! 

[waysider]

13 hours ago, WordWolf said:

..you have to know how to shove the sammich into your piehole.  

They don't call you WordWolf for nothin'.

[T-Bone]

13 hours ago, WordWolf said:

BTW, the "God gave manna, God is not manna" was a direct quote from Raf. 

 

For the curious, here's a breakdown on "the 5 things to know to receive anything from God."

Supposedly, they are:

1) What is available

2) How to receive it

3) What to do with it after you've got it

4) Your need must parallel your want

5) God's ability equals God's willingness.

Ok, here's how that nonsense breaks down...

1, 2 and 3 are not informative- they're what you do to get anything.  If you want to make a sandwich, you have to know there's fixings in the fridge.  Then you have to know how to go get them from the fridge, and assemble them in the bread.  Then you have to know how to shove the sammich into your piehole.  

How to receive a sandwich from the refrigerator: First you must know what is available, then you must know how to receive it, then you must know what to do after you've got it.

 

No, that was no revealing of some great secret there, in either case.

There's nothing in the actual Bible that says "needs must parallel wants." If anything, I can make a case for asking for what's promised,"  but, frankly, that's not REQUIRED for anything.   I would think approaching God with an attitude of humility would be more important than any of this-  I've certainly gotten better results that way- and far more SPECIFIC results that way. 

 

Finally, 5.  "God's ability equals God's willingness." This is a bit of nonsense that is not true.  God is able to destroy all life on Earth whenever he feels like it. (Job 34: 14-15

"¹⁴ If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

¹⁵ All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."   )

 

That's God's Ability.  He obviously is not WILLING to do so because we are still here.  So, God's Ability is not equal to God's Willingness.    God is All-Powerful.  He could reach in and destroy our free will.   He has the Ability to do so. He is NOT WILLING to do so.

 

Whatever vpw was plagiarizing there, again, was something he didn't understand (or he plagiarized nonsense, which is also possible.)

GREAT post WordWolf !

[modcat5]

On 9/13/2022 at 9:52 PM, WordWolf said:

BTW, the "God gave manna, God is not manna" was a direct quote from Raf. 

Why did you bring this up here? i don't see an antecedent reference

[T-Bone]

9 minutes ago, modcat5 said:

Why did you bring this up here? i don't see an antecedent reference

It may have started when I referenced WordWolf’s post on Advanced Class thread within my above post:

 

 

On 9/13/2022 at 3:48 PM, T-Bone said:

There’s no better example to show wierwille’s misconception of spiritual matters than his Great Principle  “theorem”  . God who is spirit teaches his creation in you – which is now your spirit – and your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act.      After Grease Spotters have shot so many holes in it – I like to think of it as the Grate Cheese Principle.  And it’s some stinky cheese at that!   someone please activate the  fart   fan     exhaust fan.  ...Here’s a quick reference   -  WordWolf debunks the great principle   - and folks can use Grease Spots search feature to find more. wierwille was a boldfaced bull$hit artist – if God who is spirit, can only speak to what he is – which is spirit, then how in the world did he talk to Adam and Eve after the fall? I don’t think wierwille knew squat about spiritual matters, how God works, what God can do, what Jesus Christ is doing…yeah, he’s the dumb-a$$ who said in PFAL God would have to change all the laws of the universe not to accommodate your believing. I’m not saying I know much about spiritual matters – but since I left TWI, I’m no longer  THAT STUPID   and  ARROGANT  to tell others what God Almighty can and cannot do.

 if link doesn't work now within quoting my post here is the link to Advanced Class post WordWolf's post on Advanced Class thread

[WordWolf]

13 hours ago, modcat5 said:

Why did you bring this up here? i don't see an antecedent reference

The link above, labelled "WordWolf debunks the Great Principle." I had put the sentence in quotes but didn't cite my source.  It was too good a sentence to leave alone, now that it was being looked at again.

[chockfull]

On 9/13/2022 at 3:53 PM, OldSkool said:

So my branch coordinator at the time calls my fellowship coordinator to tell him to tell me that I had missed revelation because God would have given me revelation to not roll my ankle before such a spiritual event.

I think this one is called narcissist hindsight vision.  

It was a fairly common occurrence in the way leadership and a great way to victim blame which they are talented at.  What they are not so talented at is logic or compassion or accountability.

Perhaps

1 Finger points back at accuser and accuser missed revelation on when to schedule dumb meeting

2 Armchair quarterbacks will armchair?

3 Gods job is the revelation your job is not to tell God his job armchair guy

4 Shiz happens i e accidents. 

You know in reflection I was injured at some big event.  It didn't manifest until later but accident during people having fun.

Edited September 15, 2022 by chockfull