And I agree with your guesstimate “It must be talking about something other than what we were taught”. And in my humble opinion, trying to wade through the mishmash of confusing, eclectic, and sometimes contradictory ideas of what wierwille/TWI taught is more than just a daunting task – it’s downright absurd to the Nth degree…but limiting your “guesstimate statement” to just the fundamentalism aspect of TWI-doctrine-I’ll take a stab at it – merely as food for thought on this discussion.
Fundamentalism takes a strictly literal approach to interpreting the Bible. The Bible says Jesus Christ ascended into heaven – so he’s gone. He’s at the right hand of God…someday he’s coming back as King of kings…so he’s not here…but what about verses like: I’m with you always…it’s God in Christ in you…so which is it? Is he here or there?
I think it’s possibly both.
I don’t know how…but trying to wrap my mind around stuff that may go way beyond our concepts of matter, energy, space and time is fun to try...and investigating and explaining the unseen and unknown is the passion of theorists who get intostuff likestring theory,superstring theoryand the theory of everything…and there may even be more ways for spiritual beings and the spiritual realm to be immanent and yet at the same time transcendent – maybe that info is classified. A fascinating subject though – I’ve touched on thishereand here.
Fundamentalism won’t allow for reasoning, speculating, or theorizing outside its rigid dogma.
You might enjoy exploring philosophy and philosophy of religion. There’s a lot more wiggle room in both.
T-Bone and cman - thanks! I think I have a better understanding here. Wierwille is known for shamelessly plagairazing verious authors, stealing classes, etc. I think the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ garbage is telling and probably originated with Wierwille. I think the strict, regimented, fundamentalist view that Wierwille had lead him to make stupid statements such as this one. It's stupid because, as you noted T-bone:
Quote
Fundamentalism takes a strictly literal approach to interpreting the Bible. The Bible says Jesus Christ ascended into heaven – so he’s gone. He’s at the right hand of God…someday he’s coming back as King of kings…so he’s not here…but what about verses like: I’m with you always…it’s God in Christ in you…so which is it? Is he here or there?
Vicster couldn't make it fit with his rigid mindset so he made up something that made it all make sense to him. He couldn't really understand spiritual matters in this case...could it be that this is an example of the natural man receives not the things of the spirit? Mr Lo Shanta obviosly faked speaking in tongues...so who really knows. For me this discussion has helped me get a better grasp on this garbage, even though I have denied that doctrine a long time ago. Cool discussion.
If Christ is not absent, then why is there a "return"? Or "coming of the Lord". It must be talking about something other than what we were taught.
9 hours ago, cman said:
I don't believe Christ is absent or missing.
My apologies that my humor was lost in cyberspace. Sometimes things don't come across that great when they are posted. I feel you hit the nail on the head that Wierwille tried to explain something that has far deeper implications than he was able to teach or comprehend. I appreciate your insight. Cheers!
I think the origin of this statement “the word takes the place of the absent Christ” probably has to do with the mixup VP had over some of the transitive qualities of math.
Remember “things equal to the same thing are equal to each other”? Transitive aspect of equality.
This works with real numbers.
When you get in to human aspects it doesn’t really apply. Only kind of.
Is Michael Jordan the GOAT? Or was it Wilt? Lebron?
Not many agree on transitive qualities in humans.
If only Vic would have been a more dedicated student in grade school math ….
I view the statement as an extreme fundamentalist interpretation. In this they show themselves to be following the path of the scribe who Jesus confronted.
OldSkool, that is simply one of the doctrines that TWI taught, "that by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ". I wonder if they still taught that from 1996 to 2008? Do other people remember that TWI doctrine?
Yes Mark with an extreme fundamentalist view people think of themselves as equal to Jesus Christ because they are thinking about scripture. I remember that doctrine taught clearly in the foundational and renewed mind classes.
This really twists up the transitive aspect of equality into something as illogical as the Catholics believing that bread and wine literally turns into body and blood.
I guess my progression away from fundamentalism has me focus on the relationship and lifestyle of Christ as opposed to illogical juxtapositioning of myself as god because my opinion lines up with some interpretation.
Yes Mark with an extreme fundamentalist view people think of themselves as equal to Jesus Christ because they are thinking about scripture. I remember that doctrine taught clearly in the foundational and renewed mind classes.
Thank you for the information. Also thank you OldSkool. Hopefully, TWI has improved their doctrines at least a little.
OldSkool, that is simply one of the doctrines that TWI taught, "that by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ". I wonder if they still taught that from 1996 to 2008? Do other people remember that TWI doctrine?
I realize this is a false, serpentine doctrine, but what does it mean?
Has it occurred to anyone that the expression at issue on this thread may have been meant as nothing more than a figure of speech? IDK, but it seems plausible.
Has it occurred to anyone that the expression at issue on this thread may have been meant as nothing more than a figure of speech? IDK, but it seems plausible.
Ok. Fine. Let it be a figure of speech. Still, what does it mean?
I realize this is a false, serpentine doctrine, but what does it mean?
You = Christ if you have a renewed mind.
What is a renewed mind? One that is filled with Gods Word.
That is the gist.
In practice it comes to be equivalent with compliance to leadership. And as such is a foothold for a cult taking over a persons life friends opinions finance politics and career path.
What is a renewed mind? One that is filled with Gods Word.
That is the gist.
In practice it comes to be equivalent with compliance to leadership. And as such is a foothold for a cult taking over a persons life friends opinions finance politics and career path.
Thanks, Chockfull.
A mind filled with God's Word? Does that mean a mind filled with the Bible? Or does it mean filled with God's will?
So much bull$hit it almost makes sense.
A renewed mind is not one conformed to any doctrine, any book, any teacher - this is an enslaved mind. A renewed mind is one that is free and clear. Like a child's mind. Free to be in awe of the wonder of that which cannot be named.
A mind filled with God's Word? Does that mean a mind filled with the Bible? Or does it mean filled with God's will?
So much bull$hit it almost makes sense.
A renewed mind is not one conformed to any doctrine, any book, any teacher - this is an enslaved mind. A renewed mind is one that is free and clear. Like a child's mind. Free to be in awe of the wonder of that which cannot be named.
You know I think these questions illustrate the problem with the doctrine very clearly.
Do you see the confusion here by the juxtaposition of the Bible, a sanctioned interpretation of the Bible, and spiritual direction in life?
With Way logic all you need to do is line up your opinions with their sanctioned interpretation of the Bible (compliance to past Way teachings) and you have a renewed mind.
Brainwashing language masked as spiritual maturity.
Do you see the confusion here by the juxtaposition of the Bible, a sanctioned interpretation of the Bible, and spiritual direction in life?
With Way logic all you need to do is line up your opinions with their sanctioned interpretation of the Bible (compliance to past Way teachings) and you have a renewed mind.
Brainwashing language masked as spiritual maturity.
Ah yes, the old switcheroo game!
Switcheroo: an unexpected change, especially one in which one thing or person is quickly or secretly exchanged for another
You know I think these questions illustrate the problem with the doctrine very clearly.
Do you see the confusion here by the juxtaposition of the Bible, a sanctioned interpretation of the Bible, and spiritual direction in life?
With Way logic all you need to do is line up your opinions with their sanctioned interpretation of the Bible (compliance to past Way teachings) and you have a renewed mind.
Brainwashing language masked as spiritual maturity.
One thing that strikes me is that the gospels were almost forbidden territory. Almost everything we were taught came from the epistles - Acts, and the Pauline epistles in particular. So that actually did make Christ "absent" in our lives, to some extent.
Do you remember VW talking in PFAL about having all those books about the Bible, but never actually reading it? It seems to me that we had all these books, letters, articles, Waymag pages, etc, and the epistles to an extent, about the earthly life of Jesus, but we never actually read the very books, the gospels, where that life story was written.
Jphn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me,the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Okay, Jesus has gone to the Father (= absent) but we can do greater works than him? Greater works than Jesus? That makes us greater than Jesus, perhaps? Ach, so: the Word of God is the will of God, because then - we are all Gods and greater than Jesus, who is merely a human being. And an absentee human being, at that. Shove over, Jesus. It's us who should be seated at the right hand of the Father. NOT!!!!
Jphn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me,the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Okay, Jesus has gone to the Father (= absent) but we can do greater works than him? Greater works than Jesus? That makes us greater than Jesus, perhaps? Ach, so: the Word of God is the will of God, because then - we are all Gods and greater than Jesus, who is merely a human being. And an absentee human being, at that. Shove over, Jesus. It's us who should be seated at the right hand of the Father. NOT!!!!
I was "taught" the "greater works" is SIT -- Jesus was incapable of speaking SIT, because he didn't have holy spirit, even though he's the one who sent it.
The implication of most of the "teachings" about Jesus is that "he was a just a bastard Jew and a sacrificial scapegoat... something had to be sacrificed like a sheep or goat, so it might as well be this bastard Jew - he may be glorified at the right hand of God, but he's dead.... to/for....now, have you read the epistles!?!?... just tremendous...mmmmph....MMMPH..."
I don't recall what class this was taught in, but the "greater works" is supposed to be the ability to lead someone to the new birth, something Jesus couldn't do because it wasn't available. Well, then again, maybe it was in a FellowLaborer teaching. It may have been intermingled with all the belittlement and criticism.
I don't recall what class this was taught in, but the "greater works" is supposed to be the ability to lead someone to the new birth, something Jesus couldn't do because it wasn't available. Well, then again, maybe it was in a FellowLaborer teaching. It may have been intermingled with all the belittlement and criticism.
That was probably "taught" to me as well - smells familiar.
So, Jesus could only teach ABOUT the new birth, but he just didn't have the power to LEAD anyone to it? Only the Pharisee's Pharisee could do it? To be clear, the new birth wasn't available? Or the leading one to the new birth wasn't available?
Edited by Nathan_Jr The liability, the liability, and nothing but the liability.
Yeah, I was taught it was the "new birth" as well, which wasn't available before Jesus died, so of course he couldn't help (?) anyone there.
I don't know what this means, but I'm not willing to accept the say-so of a corrupt "teacher" who didn't understand basic principles of Christianity. Is "the new birth" a "work" anyway?
I'd be satisfied if I could consistently do a fraction of the "works" that Jesus did. Happy to aim bigger once I achieve consistency.
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OldSkool
First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of
Bolshevik
Mike's apparent anger toward Christ and emphasis on obedience . . . that's Wayworld . . . that's the annihilation of the individual
waysider
Soooo...He used ONE verse from the Amplified Bible, HALF a chapter from the New English Bible and required PFAL '77 students to get some version from the 1800's that has a name so unremarkable you can
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OldSkool
T-Bone and cman - thanks! I think I have a better understanding here. Wierwille is known for shamelessly plagairazing verious authors, stealing classes, etc. I think the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ garbage is telling and probably originated with Wierwille. I think the strict, regimented, fundamentalist view that Wierwille had lead him to make stupid statements such as this one. It's stupid because, as you noted T-bone:
Vicster couldn't make it fit with his rigid mindset so he made up something that made it all make sense to him. He couldn't really understand spiritual matters in this case...could it be that this is an example of the natural man receives not the things of the spirit? Mr Lo Shanta obviosly faked speaking in tongues...so who really knows. For me this discussion has helped me get a better grasp on this garbage, even though I have denied that doctrine a long time ago. Cool discussion.
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OldSkool
My apologies that my humor was lost in cyberspace. Sometimes things don't come across that great when they are posted. I feel you hit the nail on the head that Wierwille tried to explain something that has far deeper implications than he was able to teach or comprehend. I appreciate your insight. Cheers!
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chockfull
I think the origin of this statement “the word takes the place of the absent Christ” probably has to do with the mixup VP had over some of the transitive qualities of math.
Remember “things equal to the same thing are equal to each other”? Transitive aspect of equality.
This works with real numbers.
When you get in to human aspects it doesn’t really apply. Only kind of.
Is Michael Jordan the GOAT? Or was it Wilt? Lebron?
Not many agree on transitive qualities in humans.
If only Vic would have been a more dedicated student in grade school math ….
I view the statement as an extreme fundamentalist interpretation. In this they show themselves to be following the path of the scribe who Jesus confronted.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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chockfull
Yes Mark with an extreme fundamentalist view people think of themselves as equal to Jesus Christ because they are thinking about scripture. I remember that doctrine taught clearly in the foundational and renewed mind classes.
This really twists up the transitive aspect of equality into something as illogical as the Catholics believing that bread and wine literally turns into body and blood.
I guess my progression away from fundamentalism has me focus on the relationship and lifestyle of Christ as opposed to illogical juxtapositioning of myself as god because my opinion lines up with some interpretation.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thank you for the information. Also thank you OldSkool. Hopefully, TWI has improved their doctrines at least a little.
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OldSkool
YW!! Unfortunately, they haven't.
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Nathan_Jr
I realize this is a false, serpentine doctrine, but what does it mean?
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Rocky
Has it occurred to anyone that the expression at issue on this thread may have been meant as nothing more than a figure of speech? IDK, but it seems plausible.
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Nathan_Jr
Ok. Fine. Let it be a figure of speech. Still, what does it mean?
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Rocky
hmmmm... idk.
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chockfull
You = Christ if you have a renewed mind.
What is a renewed mind? One that is filled with Gods Word.
That is the gist.
In practice it comes to be equivalent with compliance to leadership. And as such is a foothold for a cult taking over a persons life friends opinions finance politics and career path.
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks, Chockfull.
A mind filled with God's Word? Does that mean a mind filled with the Bible? Or does it mean filled with God's will?
So much bull$hit it almost makes sense.
A renewed mind is not one conformed to any doctrine, any book, any teacher - this is an enslaved mind. A renewed mind is one that is free and clear. Like a child's mind. Free to be in awe of the wonder of that which cannot be named.
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chockfull
You know I think these questions illustrate the problem with the doctrine very clearly.
Do you see the confusion here by the juxtaposition of the Bible, a sanctioned interpretation of the Bible, and spiritual direction in life?
With Way logic all you need to do is line up your opinions with their sanctioned interpretation of the Bible (compliance to past Way teachings) and you have a renewed mind.
Brainwashing language masked as spiritual maturity.
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T-Bone
Ah yes, the old switcheroo game!
Switcheroo: an unexpected change, especially one in which one thing or person is quickly or secretly exchanged for another
from: Cambridge Dictionary: switcheroo
Also see Wikipedia - bait and switch
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OldSkool
Dude...that's potent.
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Twinky
Okay, I'm late to the party on this.
One thing that strikes me is that the gospels were almost forbidden territory. Almost everything we were taught came from the epistles - Acts, and the Pauline epistles in particular. So that actually did make Christ "absent" in our lives, to some extent.
Do you remember VW talking in PFAL about having all those books about the Bible, but never actually reading it? It seems to me that we had all these books, letters, articles, Waymag pages, etc, and the epistles to an extent, about the earthly life of Jesus, but we never actually read the very books, the gospels, where that life story was written.
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Twinky
Another thing that strikes me is this:
Jphn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Okay, Jesus has gone to the Father (= absent) but we can do greater works than him? Greater works than Jesus? That makes us greater than Jesus, perhaps? Ach, so: the Word of God is the will of God, because then - we are all Gods and greater than Jesus, who is merely a human being. And an absentee human being, at that. Shove over, Jesus. It's us who should be seated at the right hand of the Father. NOT!!!!
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Nathan_Jr
I was "taught" the "greater works" is SIT -- Jesus was incapable of speaking SIT, because he didn't have holy spirit, even though he's the one who sent it.
The implication of most of the "teachings" about Jesus is that "he was a just a bastard Jew and a sacrificial scapegoat... something had to be sacrificed like a sheep or goat, so it might as well be this bastard Jew - he may be glorified at the right hand of God, but he's dead.... to/for....now, have you read the epistles!?!?... just tremendous...mmmmph....MMMPH..."
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waysider
I don't recall what class this was taught in, but the "greater works" is supposed to be the ability to lead someone to the new birth, something Jesus couldn't do because it wasn't available. Well, then again, maybe it was in a FellowLaborer teaching. It may have been intermingled with all the belittlement and criticism.
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Nathan_Jr
That was probably "taught" to me as well - smells familiar.
So, Jesus could only teach ABOUT the new birth, but he just didn't have the power to LEAD anyone to it? Only the Pharisee's Pharisee could do it? To be clear, the new birth wasn't available? Or the leading one to the new birth wasn't available?
Edited by Nathan_JrThe liability, the liability, and nothing but the liability.
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waysider
The new birth wasn't available yet, as Pentecost had not yet occurred..
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Twinky
Yeah, I was taught it was the "new birth" as well, which wasn't available before Jesus died, so of course he couldn't help (?) anyone there.
I don't know what this means, but I'm not willing to accept the say-so of a corrupt "teacher" who didn't understand basic principles of Christianity. Is "the new birth" a "work" anyway?
I'd be satisfied if I could consistently do a fraction of the "works" that Jesus did. Happy to aim bigger once I achieve consistency.
Edited by TwinkyWhy d'esn't my o wrk prperly?
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waysider
It wasn't the new birth per se. It was the leading someone to it that was the work.
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Nathan_Jr
So the leading by the teaching of the physical, formulaic mechanics of how (H-O-W) to say lo shunta la shonta, I presume?
Wow that really is a greater work! Just a tremendous kernel!
Edited by Nathan_JrThe glossolalia, the glossolalia, and nothing but the glossolalia.
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