Those with rising power and increasing wealth justify their elevated rank, and the abuses that such absolute power brings about, with stories of how extraordinary the powerful are, even how biologically different they are from those who don’t rise to the top. These narratives of exceptionalism spread the idea that the powerful are above the laws of ordinary people and deserve the bigger slice of the pie that they are so readily inclined to take (Principle 16). With these abuses of power, the power paradox reaches its dramatic climax. The very principles by which we gain and maintain power are lost upon experiencing power. Power corrupts the very qualities we need to make an enduring difference in the world, and rapidly slips away.
Keltner, Dacher. The Power Paradox (pp. 102-103). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
That’s a tremendous quote by Dacher – thanks for sharing, Rocky! It made me think of a couple of things.
1.The bigger they are the harder they fall…which is a familiar idiom which emphasizes that the more important or powerful a person is, the more difficult it is for them when they lose their power or importance
A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility. A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of irrefutable evidence, intractable problems or difficult or impossible tasks. The person is also highly dogmatic in their views, meaning the person speaks of their personal opinions as though they were unquestionably correct. Someone with a god complex may exhibit no regard for the conventions and demands of society and may request special consideration or privileges.
God complex is not a clinical term nor diagnosable disorder and does not appear in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The recognized diagnostic name for the behaviors associated with a God complex is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). A God complex may also be associated with mania or a superiority complex.
You wouldn’t be far off if you thought god complexes sounded a lot like narcissism. They’re pretty close, but they’re not identical. “When people talk about a god complex, they’re usually talking about someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder,” Blaylock-Johnson adds. They may, however, be without a formal diagnosis.
A god complex isn’t a diagnosable disorder (not classified in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM-5). Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is still a thing. A god complex is virtually always present in people with NPD, although a god complex isn’t always present in those who don’t have NPD.
However, there is a lot of overlap, especially with grandiose narcissism. It is a kind of narcissism, according to psychologist Perpetua Neo, DClinPsy, in which “someone’s narcissistic qualities—entitlement, braggadocio, and self-obsession—are publicly shown, frequently at the cost of others.” It’s equivalent to having a god complex.
I left TWI back in ’86 - amidst the vying for power by top leadership and the general air of malaise that seemed to have touched everyone after wierwille had passed away...I still remember a crystal-clear moment of serious doubt starting to form while I was at my last Rock – how could all this happen if we had more of the “rightly-divided Word” than any other group? It wasn’t just that question – it was like a cluster bomb of questions and doubts that exploded in my head! And some of those questions and doubts would start a chain reaction…spreading more bad feelings…bringing up old red flags I had dismissed.
My pop-psychology viewpoint is that the way to escape the rabbit hole depends on how far you went down the hole...you've got to retrace your steps...what sold you on this or that? for some it can be a long and arduous task...for those born into TWI - I don't know what to tell you - that's a different animal. Your parents dragged you down the rabbit hole. The rabbit hole is the only thing you know...sorry don't mean to stray way off topic - but those born into a cult will probably have a compound problem of analyzing the Achilles heel of their parents AND the cult-leader.
Initially there was a very strong sense of disappointment from realizing Craig was not wierwille…and then more depressing thoughts coming after that – what about my corps training? It was chock-full of PFAL – the very essence of wierwille. I remember some of my corps brothers saying when they get to their corps assignments, they would run PFAL classes like crazy…and there was a sentiment that would solve everything.
But there was no denying this feeling of frustration. I couldn’t shake it off…it would take a couple of years after I left to sort things out – and realize my disillusionment was from wierwille, Craig, TWI…the way corps program…and of course PFAL failing to fulfill any of the declared goals. And the more I would reflect on my 12 years of involvement the more I recognized the inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille and Craig and the ideals they supposedly represent.
what a surprise of weaknesses in supposedly strong…powerful…charismatic cult-leaders - – through a series of events you unexpectedly discover they are phonies…when you take off the PFAL-blinders you see the cult-leaders for what they are – hot air balloons of god complex inflated to the max. The downfall…their undoing is their loss of power to manipulate me…their loss of super-apostle stature to impress me…It’s like the story of the Wizard of Oz. The Great Oz’s cover was blown when little Toto pulled back the curtain…Toto is to the Great Wizard of Oz what Grease Spot Café is to wierwille, Craig, TWI and offshoots.
Edited by T-Bone The bigger the typos the harder it is to fix them
A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility. A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of irrefutable evidence, intractable problems or difficult or impossible tasks. The person is also highly dogmatic in their views, meaning the person speaks of their personal opinions as though they were unquestionably correct. Someone with a god complex may exhibit no regard for the conventions and demands of society and may request special consideration or privileges.
19 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
To me, one of the most surprising weaknesses or vulnerability in supposedly strong…powerful…charismatic cult-leaders - – is when you unexpectedly discover they are phonies…when you take off the PFAL-blinders you see the cult-leaders for what they are – hot air balloons of god complex inflated to the max. The downfall…their undoing is their loss of power to manipulate me…their loss of super-apostle stature to impress me…It’s like the story of the Wizard of Oz. The Great Oz’s cover was blown when little Toto pulled back the curtain…Toto is to the Great Wizard of Oz what [Waydale and] Grease Spot Café is to wierwille, Craig, TWI and offshoots.
If a supposedly strong...powerful...charismatic cult-leader cannot allow him/herself to be emotionally vulnerable with people, he/she is NOT strong or powerful. Brene Brown's research has documented that reality.
The Achilles heel is the fatal flaw. It is the inherent deficiency or weakness that brings about the hero's downfall - a fall from greatness, a tragedy.
The implication of the question is that victor and Loy are men fallen from greatness. Aristotelian tragic figures. Are they great men with fatal flaws? Tragic figures are sympathetic figures. Are theirs narratives of falling from greatness because of a weakness? Or are they narratives of rotten men imploding on their own inherent wickedness?
I don't know enough about Loy, but I suspect that he may be the only candidate for tragic hero. He may have had great potential, but victor trained him up and taught him up into wickedness. If Loy has an Achilles heel, it is credulity. He is intellectually and spiritually gullible. He BELIEVES the lie of victor's greatness. He can't see that victor is simply clothed as a sheep.
Victor is not a tragic hero. He is not great just because he claims to be great. His lust for power is not a precursor to his downfall. It is a mere characteristic of his complete wickedness - a shading of the iris of his eye. Like all NPDs, he self-implodes into all his flaws.
Edited by Nathan_Jr It wasn't the Achilles heel of lust for power and flesh that caused Snowball Pete to rape Maggie Muggins. It was the very nature of the depth of his being that compelled him to free will choose the action of rape.
Poignant myth (story). One of Keltner's theses is that power doesn't always or doesn't have to corrupt. But it often does.
I think that is a very good point, Rocky.
A sentiment that I’ve found common in some commentaries and systematic theologies that I’ve looked at. Basically, since God alone is the sovereign ruler of the cosmos, he is the one to institute or delegate authority. This seems to be evident as far back as Genesis:
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”Genesis 1:26
A thought carried into the New Testament…with military might and strict law - ruling with an iron fist, Rome imposed a “Pax Romana”, or Roman Peace, on the ancient world which lasted nearly three centuries…and yet even under Roman rule Paul wrote the following:
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
I think Scripture does make one exception to this – when obedience to civil authority would mean disobedience to God. For example:
The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live.Exodus 1:17
Power doesn't always or doesn't have to corrupt - but it often does– is a fact of life. I believe we are all fallen creatures and have a tendency to mess up this wonderful world…Politics aside, I admire anyone in public service or religious service who does so with the best of intentions and tries to make this world a better place.
Power doesn't always or doesn't have to corrupt - but it often does– is a fact of life. I believe we are all fallen creatures and have a tendency to mess up this wonderful world…Politics aside, I admire anyone in public service or religious service who does so with the best of intentions and tries to make this world a better place.
That's one of the things I have learned from Stoic philosophy. It emphasizes four key virtues: courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. Clearly, Victor's version of Christianity was centered on himself. I bet you can find those four key virtues in the bible.
Victor didn't teach people HOW to love God. He taught them (us) that if you think you love God, you can do as you fool please, right?
Well, wasn't that just a blind man's mask for living life according to your own sinful (lustful, selfish) desires?
Quote
Most people see Stoicism and Christianity as polar opposites, but the belief systems do overlap in several ways. While more differences than similarities exist between the two, we shouldn’t let that preclude us from considering what both schools of thought offer as answers to that perennial question: how should we live?
I'm not so sure "most" people even know what Stoicism is about. But I sure don't look (anymore) on Victor's example as at all worthy of emulation.
Victor didn't teach people HOW to love God. He taught them (us) that if you think you love God, you can do as you fool please, right?
Well, wasn't that just a blind man's mask for living life according to your own sinful (lustful, selfish) desires?
I'm not so sure "most" people even know what Stoicism is about. But I sure don't look (anymore) on Victor's example as at all worthy of emulation.
I think that in many ways the anti Christ impact of the Way distorts the true Way Jesus Christ so much that we also seek sources well outside the box of Christianity to help establish virtue habits.
Jesus would have probably sat down and talked about those virtues rather than flexed positional authority.
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T-Bone
That’s a tremendous quote by Dacher – thanks for sharing, Rocky! It made me think of a couple of things.
1. The bigger they are the harder they fall…which is a familiar idiom which emphasizes that the more important or powerful a person is, the more difficult it is for them when they lose their power or importance
From: Cambridge Dictionary org: bigger they are the harder they fall
2. the God Complex.
A god complex is an unshakable belief characterized by consistently inflated feelings of personal ability, privilege, or infallibility. A person with a god complex may refuse to admit the possibility of their error or failure, even in the face of irrefutable evidence, intractable problems or difficult or impossible tasks. The person is also highly dogmatic in their views, meaning the person speaks of their personal opinions as though they were unquestionably correct. Someone with a god complex may exhibit no regard for the conventions and demands of society and may request special consideration or privileges.
God complex is not a clinical term nor diagnosable disorder and does not appear in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The recognized diagnostic name for the behaviors associated with a God complex is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). A God complex may also be associated with mania or a superiority complex.
From Wiki – God complex
~ ~ ~ ~
and from Mind Power Hub
Do most narcissists have a god complex?
You wouldn’t be far off if you thought god complexes sounded a lot like narcissism. They’re pretty close, but they’re not identical. “When people talk about a god complex, they’re usually talking about someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder,” Blaylock-Johnson adds. They may, however, be without a formal diagnosis.
A god complex isn’t a diagnosable disorder (not classified in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM-5). Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is still a thing. A god complex is virtually always present in people with NPD, although a god complex isn’t always present in those who don’t have NPD.
However, there is a lot of overlap, especially with grandiose narcissism. It is a kind of narcissism, according to psychologist Perpetua Neo, DClinPsy, in which “someone’s narcissistic qualities—entitlement, braggadocio, and self-obsession—are publicly shown, frequently at the cost of others.” It’s equivalent to having a god complex.
From: Mind Power Hub: 11 tips to spot someone with a God complex
I left TWI back in ’86 - amidst the vying for power by top leadership and the general air of malaise that seemed to have touched everyone after wierwille had passed away... I still remember a crystal-clear moment of serious doubt starting to form while I was at my last Rock – how could all this happen if we had more of the “rightly-divided Word” than any other group? It wasn’t just that question – it was like a cluster bomb of questions and doubts that exploded in my head! And some of those questions and doubts would start a chain reaction…spreading more bad feelings…bringing up old red flags I had dismissed.
My pop-psychology viewpoint is that the way to escape the rabbit hole depends on how far you went down the hole...you've got to retrace your steps...what sold you on this or that? for some it can be a long and arduous task...for those born into TWI - I don't know what to tell you - that's a different animal. Your parents dragged you down the rabbit hole. The rabbit hole is the only thing you know...sorry don't mean to stray way off topic - but those born into a cult will probably have a compound problem of analyzing the Achilles heel of their parents AND the cult-leader.
Initially there was a very strong sense of disappointment from realizing Craig was not wierwille…and then more depressing thoughts coming after that – what about my corps training? It was chock-full of PFAL – the very essence of wierwille. I remember some of my corps brothers saying when they get to their corps assignments, they would run PFAL classes like crazy…and there was a sentiment that would solve everything.
But there was no denying this feeling of frustration. I couldn’t shake it off…it would take a couple of years after I left to sort things out – and realize my disillusionment was from wierwille, Craig, TWI…the way corps program…and of course PFAL failing to fulfill any of the declared goals. And the more I would reflect on my 12 years of involvement the more I recognized the inconsistencies between the actions of wierwille and Craig and the ideals they supposedly represent.
what a surprise of weaknesses in supposedly strong…powerful…charismatic cult-leaders - – through a series of events you unexpectedly discover they are phonies…when you take off the PFAL-blinders you see the cult-leaders for what they are – hot air balloons of god complex inflated to the max. The downfall…their undoing is their loss of power to manipulate me…their loss of super-apostle stature to impress me…It’s like the story of the Wizard of Oz. The Great Oz’s cover was blown when little Toto pulled back the curtain…Toto is to the Great Wizard of Oz what Grease Spot Café is to wierwille, Craig, TWI and offshoots.
Edited by T-BoneThe bigger the typos the harder it is to fix them
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Rocky
If a supposedly strong...powerful...charismatic cult-leader cannot allow him/herself to be emotionally vulnerable with people, he/she is NOT strong or powerful. Brene Brown's research has documented that reality.
Edited by RockyThanks for sharing your insight, T!
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Nathan_Jr
So much meat, Rocky and T-Bone. So much meat.
The Achilles heel is the fatal flaw. It is the inherent deficiency or weakness that brings about the hero's downfall - a fall from greatness, a tragedy.
The implication of the question is that victor and Loy are men fallen from greatness. Aristotelian tragic figures. Are they great men with fatal flaws? Tragic figures are sympathetic figures. Are theirs narratives of falling from greatness because of a weakness? Or are they narratives of rotten men imploding on their own inherent wickedness?
I don't know enough about Loy, but I suspect that he may be the only candidate for tragic hero. He may have had great potential, but victor trained him up and taught him up into wickedness. If Loy has an Achilles heel, it is credulity. He is intellectually and spiritually gullible. He BELIEVES the lie of victor's greatness. He can't see that victor is simply clothed as a sheep.
Victor is not a tragic hero. He is not great just because he claims to be great. His lust for power is not a precursor to his downfall. It is a mere characteristic of his complete wickedness - a shading of the iris of his eye. Like all NPDs, he self-implodes into all his flaws.
Edited by Nathan_JrIt wasn't the Achilles heel of lust for power and flesh that caused Snowball Pete to rape Maggie Muggins. It was the very nature of the depth of his being that compelled him to free will choose the action of rape.
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chockfull
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Rocky
Poignant myth (story). One of Keltner's theses is that power doesn't always or doesn't have to corrupt. But it often does.
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T-Bone
I think that is a very good point, Rocky.
A sentiment that I’ve found common in some commentaries and systematic theologies that I’ve looked at. Basically, since God alone is the sovereign ruler of the cosmos, he is the one to institute or delegate authority. This seems to be evident as far back as Genesis:
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” Genesis 1:26
A thought carried into the New Testament…with military might and strict law - ruling with an iron fist, Rome imposed a “Pax Romana”, or Roman Peace, on the ancient world which lasted nearly three centuries…and yet even under Roman rule Paul wrote the following:
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Romans 13:1
I think Scripture does make one exception to this – when obedience to civil authority would mean disobedience to God. For example:
The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. Exodus 1:17
Power doesn't always or doesn't have to corrupt - but it often does – is a fact of life. I believe we are all fallen creatures and have a tendency to mess up this wonderful world…Politics aside, I admire anyone in public service or religious service who does so with the best of intentions and tries to make this world a better place.
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Rocky
That's one of the things I have learned from Stoic philosophy. It emphasizes four key virtues: courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. Clearly, Victor's version of Christianity was centered on himself. I bet you can find those four key virtues in the bible.
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Rocky
Victor didn't teach people HOW to love God. He taught them (us) that if you think you love God, you can do as you fool please, right?
Well, wasn't that just a blind man's mask for living life according to your own sinful (lustful, selfish) desires?
I'm not so sure "most" people even know what Stoicism is about. But I sure don't look (anymore) on Victor's example as at all worthy of emulation.
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Rocky
That power leads to self-serving impulsivity is a human universal, transcending cultures, codes, religions, and morals.
Keltner, Dacher. The Power Paradox (p. 127). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Powerful religious leaders anymore decry the fact that belief in God is severely diminishing. Perhaps THIS is a significant contributing factor.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/disturbing-trends-in-americas-belief-in-god.html
https://time.com/4283975/god-belief-religion-americans/
https://news.gallup.com/poll/268205/americans-believe-god.aspx
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chockfull
I think that in many ways the anti Christ impact of the Way distorts the true Way Jesus Christ so much that we also seek sources well outside the box of Christianity to help establish virtue habits.
Jesus would have probably sat down and talked about those virtues rather than flexed positional authority.
Unlike the Way.
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Rocky
I agree. I still struggle with that problem.
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