I doubt a website has any real affect on leadership of The Way any more the angry shouts of people driving down Wierwille Road late at night and the random acts of vandalism. Usually people who are not leadership end up on the receiving end.
Waydale had a HUGE effect on the way international. The trustees (before they started calling themselves directors) wanted very much for Paul Allen to disappear off the face of the planet. When he started waydale a huge expose of how TWI really works came pouring out and it was mostly putrid fruit. The directors love secrecy...why? Because their works are evil and they do not want how they really operate to come out in the open. Except now, thank to waydale/gsc it has. When the way international SETTLED out of court...yes...they basically gave the Allen's money to go away....grease spot cafe was born out of waydale. Why? Because as a condition of the settlement the Allens agreed to shut waydale down. Yes...the directors paid a huge sum of money to keep the truth from public record, shut down waydale, and for the Allens to go away. None of that would have ever happened when it did without waydale. I saw first hand how badly the directors were scrambling to conceal the truth. If you connect the dots...between lawyer fees, out of court settlements, etc....the way international spent millions over the martindale/Allen affair. Hows that for your abundant sharing at work?
I was at HQ when Rosalie announced at the noon meal that they had settled the court case. I distinctly remember sitting there at my table thinking.,..SETTLED...WTF? Everyone around me was doing a standing ovation and many people were actually teary eyed that there was no more court case to worry about and the adversary had been defeated. I was so ticked they settled because to me it was an admission of guilt and a gross misappropriation of donations sent in by followers. This moment was really the fulcrum of me going from a starry eyed cult leader to waking the eff up to the truth that TWI's is an abusive cult.
Waydale and Grease spot are responsible for exposing the belly of the beast. I would have never started posting here except I know first hand the impact these websites have had on TWI. Rosalie still had J0hn L!nder printing out GSC forums for her to read on a daily basis...and this was in 2008. She wouldnt put a computer in her office so she had Linder print out hardcopies. Why? They are looking for anything threatining or illegal where they can try and have GSC shut down. As you can see...that's an epic fail.
SETTLED...WTF? Everyone around me was doing a standing ovation and many people were actually teary eyed that there was no more court case to worry about and the adversary had been defeated. I was so ticked they settled because to me it was an admission of guilt and a gross misappropriation of donations sent in by followers. This moment was really the fulcrum of me going from a starry eyed cult leader to waking the eff up to the truth that TWI's is an abusive cult.
Because you, at the time, apparently had enough life experience against which to measure Rosalie's words and recognize them as Bull$hit.
7 minutes ago, OldSkool said:
They are looking for anything threatining or illegal where they can try and have GSC shut down. As you can see...that's an epic fail.
Hallelujah! Praise God! Amen!
8 minutes ago, OldSkool said:
Waydale had a HUGE effect on the way international. The trustees (before they started calling themselves directors) wanted very much for Paul Allen to disappear off the face of the planet. When he started waydale a huge expose of how TWI really works came pouring out and it was mostly putrid fruit. The directors love secrecy...why? Because their works are evil and they do not want how they really operate to come out in the open. Except now, thank to waydale/gsc it has. When the way international SETTLED out of court...yes...they basically gave the Allen's money to go away....grease spot cafe was born out of waydale. Why? Because as a condition of the settlement the Allens agreed to shut waydale down. Yes...the directors paid a huge sum of money to keep the truth from public record, shut down waydale, and for the Allens to go away. None of that would have ever happened when it did without waydale.
Old Skool, what a Righteous post, from my perspective!
To Bolshevik I say that I can recognize the anguish you experienced because of what you described Waydale meaning in your life as a teenager. I am so sorry that you had to go through it.
However, was your anguish caused by the exposure of The Way Corporation's evil acts and how people in the subculture at the time lashed out at you... or was your anguished caused by Waydale and P.A. having exposed what he did about what Martindale and corporate powers in The Way Corporation did?
I can't answer that for you. But I hope you will be able to work through the issue and find resolution and peace somehow.
Because you, at the time, apparently had enough life experience against which to measure Rosalie's words and recognize them as Bull$hit.
Old Skool, what a Righteous post, from my perspective!
Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated!
On a side not, anyone reading along that thinks the out of court settlement between the way international and Paul Allen meant the way was not guilty as charged, or the charges were frivolous need look no further than the following link and quote.: (Schmitt is referring to Judge John D. Schmitt who presided over the case. Although he dismissed the entire case but upheld four of the most damning charges)
In that October ruling, Schmitt upheld the remaining four counts of the Allens' suit, including the allegation that Frances Allen was sexually victimized by Martindale, Bidon and others; that the assault upon Frances Allen occurred as a result of civil conspiracy; that The Way engaged in a pattern of corrupt activity which included acts of assault and rape; and breach of contract.
The Allens contend the illegal activities occurred during and after their involvement with The Way when they were agents or employees of The Way between 1978 and 1981.
The Allens' suit claims Martindale "willfully and with malice" began a campaign to coerce Frances Allen into engaging in sexual activity with him.
The suit also contends that Martindale, Bidon and others "eventually succeeded in sexually victimizing" Frances Allen between 1996 and March 1999. Schmitt also ruled in October against The Way attorneys' claim that the statute of limitations for assault and battery had lapsed. Schmitt said the one-year statute of limitations was extended because a legal agreement was reached between the parties to allow more time to the Allens and their attorneys.
The Way was represented by Cleveland attorney Louis Colombo and Sidney attorneys Thomas Kerrigan II and Michael F. Boller. The Allens were also represented by Sherman Oaks, Calif. attorney Lawrence Levy.
This thread is to document the evils of Waydale and the like.
I doubt a website has any real affect on leadership of The Way any more the angry shouts of people driving down Wierwille Road late at night and the random acts of vandalism. Usually people who are not leadership end up on the receiving end.
I was never on or looked online at Waydale.
People would print off items from the sites. Family, friends, worried family of friends. I was accused of being a danger of wife-swapping and whatnot. I was a teenager.
I don't know what you talked about on there, but F U. You were an ally to TWI. When you struck, TWI was there with open arms.
BTW, and more importantly than anything I have posted extolling the virtues of waydale....I am truly sorry you had to deal with the experiences you mentioned. That's really awful. You deserve better my friend, much better.
or was your anguished caused by Waydale and P.A. having exposed what he did about what Martindale and corporate powers in The Way Corporation did?
Perhaps I should clarify. Was your anguish causing experience directly aimed at you intentionally on the part of the website Waydale or its authors or admins? IOW, were you, to your knowledge named on Waydale for any act you may have committed or were thought by someone responsible for Waydale for having committed?
Or was your experience caused by the fear and anger of people who at the time were loyal to The Way who then, out of that loyalty and fear for their families lashed out irrationally at you (and likely others)?
For anyone to document any evil(s) rightfully attributed to Waydale or its authors/administrators, such a person would have to show/demonstrate how the words ON the website harmed them. NOT how someone reacted to what was written on Waydale and therefore committed harmful actions against anyone.
This thread is to document the evils of Waydale and the like.
I doubt a website has any real affect on leadership of The Way any more the angry shouts of people driving down Wierwille Road late at night and the random acts of vandalism. Usually people who are not leadership end up on the receiving end.
I was never on or looked online at Waydale.
People would print off items from the sites. Family, friends, worried family of friends. I was accused of being a danger of wife-swapping and whatnot. I was a teenager.
I don't know what you talked about on there, but F U. You were an ally to TWI. When you struck, TWI was there with open arms.
Bolshevik,
I'm trying to understand what you are talking about. What are some of the evils of Waydale to be documented?
Wasn't Waydale critical of TWI? I thought I once actually found the Waydale site pages in a deep web archive search. I didn't book mark it and now can't find it. Maybe I'm misremembering.
I thought I once actually found the Waydale site pages in a deep web archive search. I didn't book mark it and now can't find it. Maybe I'm misremembering.
Probably not misremembering. Once upon a time, GSC had an archive of some (maybe all) of the content from Waydale.
Old Skool (fifth comment on this thread) faithfully and fairly characterizes Waydale. The most significant aspect of it from my perspective is that it was the precursor to GSC and was started by P*** A**** as an online place to document the experience he and his wife went through at the hands of Loy C Martindale in the wake of Loy's predatory sexual attack and assault on and of his wife... and the foregoing civil litigation.
It had massive impact because it primarily contained first hand documentation of the perverse sexual culture endemic in TWI.
It appears, and I hope Bolshevik clarifies, that Waydale had substantial unforeseen (perhaps largely indirect) ramifications in the life of teenagers, including himself, who perhaps were coming of age around the time Loy's crimes were being exposed.
I was never on Waydale either. I arrived when the GSC was an ezboard. (I miss ezboards.)
Bolshevik:
"I was never on or looked online at Waydale."
"I don't know what you talked about on there"
So, you have an axe to grind about a website you never visited and never read, that closed down some 25 years or so ago......
"This thread is to document the evils of Waydale and the like."
If my memory serves- and it usually does- then you're the first person to post complaints about Waydale and its content- at least on the GSC (unless they posted that right on Waydale or on the brand-new GSC- but if either was true, wouldn't someone have complained about them in the decades since?
"I doubt a website has any real affect on leadership of The Way any more the angry shouts of people driving down Wierwille Road late at night and the random acts of vandalism. Usually people who are not leadership end up on the receiving end. "
Your perspective on this was in error. As OldSkool pointed out, Waydale had an enormous impact on the bod, as well as impacts among the rank-and-file.... not even counting people who left twi and found Waydale or the GSC before considering a return to twi. Waydale and the GSC have had an enormous impact on recruiting and retention in twi by shining a light on what was kept hidden and dark.
"People would print off items from the sites. Family, friends, worried family of friends. I was accused of being a danger of wife-swapping and whatnot. I was a teenager.
I don't know what you talked about on there, but F U. You were an ally to TWI. When you struck, TWI was there with open arms. "
Since you never even saw the site, I can't guarantee what they printed out was even content from Waydale. If it was their content, it's very easy to take something out of context and pretend you did not- all in attempts to make the previous person look foolish. twi desperately wanted to silence Waydale, and silenced Waydale- by settling out of court and paying hush-money. twi painted Waydale as a threat- and threat it was. They painted the settlement as a victory- when it was an admission of guilt- because they were less worried about the admission of guilt than that Waydale was exposing all their secrets to their members/followers. In the case of the GSC, that got so bad once that twi regulars were more used to getting twi news from the GSC than from twi, that when the story broke about Mrs W being sent to live in a foster home, that twi DEMANDED they be allowed to post something on the GSC as a rebuttal to the exposure of what they were doing.
It sounds like the problem wasn't Waydale, nor even its content, but the a-holes still in twi who went out of their way to take content out of context and then attack you with it.
It sounds like the problem wasn't Waydale, nor even its content, but the a-holes still in twi who went out of their way to take content out of context and then attack you with it.
Wasn't Waydale critical of TWI? I thought I once actually found the Waydale site pages in a deep web archive search. I didn't book mark it and now can't find it. Maybe I'm misremembering.
Here ya go! And they paid all that money for them to take waydale down and it's forever preserved on the good ole internet.
Waydale then Greasespot kept hammering reality about the Way at me until I was finally ripe for a trigger to stir reality in my mind, and y own memory. Full of resentment from being yanked involuntarily out of the Way, I simply refused to believe the bad things that I was hearing about....namely the sexual assaults then rapes. Finally the trigger came, in the form of "Losing the Way", written by a person I had been with in the Way Corps, even in the same state during my apprentice year. Empathizing with her and many who were subjected to rape and sexual assault, I finally believed them, Kristen's book striking so many bells and raising red flags like crazy in front of my face. All that, and help from a non Way related survivor friend, brught back the memory of my own sexual assault. So though it didn't bear fruit with me right away, Waydale, followed by Greasespot, laid the groundwork for recalling my trauma, for which I have been undergoing therapy since 2017. .
I was never on Waydale either. I arrived when the GSC was an ezboard. (I miss ezboards.)
Bolshevik:
"I was never on or looked online at Waydale."
"I don't know what you talked about on there"
So, you have an axe to grind about a website you never visited and never read, that closed down some 25 years or so ago......
"This thread is to document the evils of Waydale and the like."
If my memory serves- and it usually does- then you're the first person to post complaints about Waydale and its content- at least on the GSC (unless they posted that right on Waydale or on the brand-new GSC- but if either was true, wouldn't someone have complained about them in the decades since?
"I doubt a website has any real affect on leadership of The Way any more the angry shouts of people driving down Wierwille Road late at night and the random acts of vandalism. Usually people who are not leadership end up on the receiving end. "
Your perspective on this was in error. As OldSkool pointed out, Waydale had an enormous impact on the bod, as well as impacts among the rank-and-file.... not even counting people who left twi and found Waydale or the GSC before considering a return to twi. Waydale and the GSC have had an enormous impact on recruiting and retention in twi by shining a light on what was kept hidden and dark.
"People would print off items from the sites. Family, friends, worried family of friends. I was accused of being a danger of wife-swapping and whatnot. I was a teenager.
I don't know what you talked about on there, but F U. You were an ally to TWI. When you struck, TWI was there with open arms. "
Since you never even saw the site, I can't guarantee what they printed out was even content from Waydale. If it was their content, it's very easy to take something out of context and pretend you did not- all in attempts to make the previous person look foolish. twi desperately wanted to silence Waydale, and silenced Waydale- by settling out of court and paying hush-money. twi painted Waydale as a threat- and threat it was. They painted the settlement as a victory- when it was an admission of guilt- because they were less worried about the admission of guilt than that Waydale was exposing all their secrets to their members/followers. In the case of the GSC, that got so bad once that twi regulars were more used to getting twi news from the GSC than from twi, that when the story broke about Mrs W being sent to live in a foster home, that twi DEMANDED they be allowed to post something on the GSC as a rebuttal to the exposure of what they were doing.
It sounds like the problem wasn't Waydale, nor even its content, but the a-holes still in twi who went out of their way to take content out of context and then attack you with it.
Are you blaming children for the women raped before they were born?
It sounds like the problem wasn't Waydale, nor even its content, but the a-holes still in twi who went out of eir way to take content out of context and then attack you with it.
Again you're making stuff up.
These people were not in TWI.
Waydale cut off avenues for people trying to leave.
Because you, at the time, apparently had enough life experience against which to measure Rosalie's words and recognize them as Bull$hit.
Hallelujah! Praise God! Amen!
Old Skool, what a Righteous post, from my perspective!
To Bolshevik I say that I can recognize the anguish you experienced because of what you described Waydale meaning in your life as a teenager. I am so sorry that you had to go through it.
However, was your anguish caused by the exposure of The Way Corporation's evil acts and how people in the subculture at the time lashed out at you... or was your anguished caused by Waydale and P.A. having exposed what he did about what Martindale and corporate powers in The Way Corporation did?
I can't answer that for you. But I hope you will be able to work through the issue and find resolution and peace somehow.
My anguish was caused by ostracism caused by the websites I was not involved with. And decades of consequences that followed.
Waydale was meant for bastad cult followers. Your business should have been between you and your leaders
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engine
I left in 1986 and stumbled onto Waydale around 1999 perhaps. I spoke to Paul Allen one time, too. He was calmly furious at twi and determined to push them as far as he could. IMO, it was becaus
Nathan_Jr
Aha! Yep. That's it. That's what I remember seeing. Nice work, OldSkool!
chockfull
Because it denotes a person in a position of trust relationship like a judge or a therapist. It describes the betrayal of the trust that society normally places in a person with those credentials.
frank123lol
It just showed a realistic view of a rainbow colored org
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Bolshevik
I did not like TWIG Fellowship. Did not volunteer.
I recall in the instance a new person showed up people would almost run out the door. It followed HQ was the same.
Had the internet been available in the 60s/70s would that had resulted in arrests? Martindale was never arrested?
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Bolshevik
Anyone tried this instead? If the State acknowledged the actions of VPW?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthumous_trial#:~:text=Posthumous trials can be held,convicted person after their death.
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OldSkool
Waydale had a HUGE effect on the way international. The trustees (before they started calling themselves directors) wanted very much for Paul Allen to disappear off the face of the planet. When he started waydale a huge expose of how TWI really works came pouring out and it was mostly putrid fruit. The directors love secrecy...why? Because their works are evil and they do not want how they really operate to come out in the open. Except now, thank to waydale/gsc it has. When the way international SETTLED out of court...yes...they basically gave the Allen's money to go away....grease spot cafe was born out of waydale. Why? Because as a condition of the settlement the Allens agreed to shut waydale down. Yes...the directors paid a huge sum of money to keep the truth from public record, shut down waydale, and for the Allens to go away. None of that would have ever happened when it did without waydale. I saw first hand how badly the directors were scrambling to conceal the truth. If you connect the dots...between lawyer fees, out of court settlements, etc....the way international spent millions over the martindale/Allen affair. Hows that for your abundant sharing at work?
I was at HQ when Rosalie announced at the noon meal that they had settled the court case. I distinctly remember sitting there at my table thinking.,..SETTLED...WTF? Everyone around me was doing a standing ovation and many people were actually teary eyed that there was no more court case to worry about and the adversary had been defeated. I was so ticked they settled because to me it was an admission of guilt and a gross misappropriation of donations sent in by followers. This moment was really the fulcrum of me going from a starry eyed cult leader to waking the eff up to the truth that TWI's is an abusive cult.
Waydale and Grease spot are responsible for exposing the belly of the beast. I would have never started posting here except I know first hand the impact these websites have had on TWI. Rosalie still had J0hn L!nder printing out GSC forums for her to read on a daily basis...and this was in 2008. She wouldnt put a computer in her office so she had Linder print out hardcopies. Why? They are looking for anything threatining or illegal where they can try and have GSC shut down. As you can see...that's an epic fail.
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Rocky
Because you, at the time, apparently had enough life experience against which to measure Rosalie's words and recognize them as Bull$hit.
Hallelujah! Praise God! Amen!
Old Skool, what a Righteous post, from my perspective!
To Bolshevik I say that I can recognize the anguish you experienced because of what you described Waydale meaning in your life as a teenager. I am so sorry that you had to go through it.
However, was your anguish caused by the exposure of The Way Corporation's evil acts and how people in the subculture at the time lashed out at you... or was your anguished caused by Waydale and P.A. having exposed what he did about what Martindale and corporate powers in The Way Corporation did?
I can't answer that for you. But I hope you will be able to work through the issue and find resolution and peace somehow.
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OldSkool
Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated!
On a side not, anyone reading along that thinks the out of court settlement between the way international and Paul Allen meant the way was not guilty as charged, or the charges were frivolous need look no further than the following link and quote.: (Schmitt is referring to Judge John D. Schmitt who presided over the case. Although he dismissed the entire case but upheld four of the most damning charges)
https://www.culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8318-the-way-international-reaches-settlement-with-couple.html
and for further reading:
http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/sut_sxinterogrev.htm
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OldSkool
BTW, and more importantly than anything I have posted extolling the virtues of waydale....I am truly sorry you had to deal with the experiences you mentioned. That's really awful. You deserve better my friend, much better.
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Rocky
Perhaps I should clarify. Was your anguish causing experience directly aimed at you intentionally on the part of the website Waydale or its authors or admins? IOW, were you, to your knowledge named on Waydale for any act you may have committed or were thought by someone responsible for Waydale for having committed?
Or was your experience caused by the fear and anger of people who at the time were loyal to The Way who then, out of that loyalty and fear for their families lashed out irrationally at you (and likely others)?
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Rocky
For anyone to document any evil(s) rightfully attributed to Waydale or its authors/administrators, such a person would have to show/demonstrate how the words ON the website harmed them. NOT how someone reacted to what was written on Waydale and therefore committed harmful actions against anyone.
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Nathan_Jr
Bolshevik,
I'm trying to understand what you are talking about. What are some of the evils of Waydale to be documented?
Wasn't Waydale critical of TWI? I thought I once actually found the Waydale site pages in a deep web archive search. I didn't book mark it and now can't find it. Maybe I'm misremembering.
What is going on? What happened?
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Rocky
Probably not misremembering. Once upon a time, GSC had an archive of some (maybe all) of the content from Waydale.
Old Skool (fifth comment on this thread) faithfully and fairly characterizes Waydale. The most significant aspect of it from my perspective is that it was the precursor to GSC and was started by P*** A**** as an online place to document the experience he and his wife went through at the hands of Loy C Martindale in the wake of Loy's predatory sexual attack and assault on and of his wife... and the foregoing civil litigation.
It had massive impact because it primarily contained first hand documentation of the perverse sexual culture endemic in TWI.
It appears, and I hope Bolshevik clarifies, that Waydale had substantial unforeseen (perhaps largely indirect) ramifications in the life of teenagers, including himself, who perhaps were coming of age around the time Loy's crimes were being exposed.
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WordWolf
I was never on Waydale either. I arrived when the GSC was an ezboard. (I miss ezboards.)
Bolshevik:
"I was never on or looked online at Waydale."
"I don't know what you talked about on there"
So, you have an axe to grind about a website you never visited and never read, that closed down some 25 years or so ago......
"This thread is to document the evils of Waydale and the like."
If my memory serves- and it usually does- then you're the first person to post complaints about Waydale and its content- at least on the GSC (unless they posted that right on Waydale or on the brand-new GSC- but if either was true, wouldn't someone have complained about them in the decades since?
"I doubt a website has any real affect on leadership of The Way any more the angry shouts of people driving down Wierwille Road late at night and the random acts of vandalism. Usually people who are not leadership end up on the receiving end. "
Your perspective on this was in error. As OldSkool pointed out, Waydale had an enormous impact on the bod, as well as impacts among the rank-and-file.... not even counting people who left twi and found Waydale or the GSC before considering a return to twi. Waydale and the GSC have had an enormous impact on recruiting and retention in twi by shining a light on what was kept hidden and dark.
"People would print off items from the sites. Family, friends, worried family of friends. I was accused of being a danger of wife-swapping and whatnot. I was a teenager.
I don't know what you talked about on there, but F U. You were an ally to TWI. When you struck, TWI was there with open arms. "
Since you never even saw the site, I can't guarantee what they printed out was even content from Waydale. If it was their content, it's very easy to take something out of context and pretend you did not- all in attempts to make the previous person look foolish. twi desperately wanted to silence Waydale, and silenced Waydale- by settling out of court and paying hush-money. twi painted Waydale as a threat- and threat it was. They painted the settlement as a victory- when it was an admission of guilt- because they were less worried about the admission of guilt than that Waydale was exposing all their secrets to their members/followers. In the case of the GSC, that got so bad once that twi regulars were more used to getting twi news from the GSC than from twi, that when the story broke about Mrs W being sent to live in a foster home, that twi DEMANDED they be allowed to post something on the GSC as a rebuttal to the exposure of what they were doing.
It sounds like the problem wasn't Waydale, nor even its content, but the a-holes still in twi who went out of their way to take content out of context and then attack you with it.
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Rocky
Indeed.
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OldSkool
Here ya go! And they paid all that money for them to take waydale down and it's forever preserved on the good ole internet.
http://web.archive.org/web/20000511203809/http://www.waydale.com/
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OldSkool
GSC did and the originals can be found here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000510234811/http://www.waydale.com/main/docs-main.html
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OldSkool
And the start of GSC:
http://web.archive.org/web/20011129230710/http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/
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Nathan_Jr
Aha! Yep. That's it. That's what I remember seeing. Nice work, OldSkool!
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Lifted Up
Waydale then Greasespot kept hammering reality about the Way at me until I was finally ripe for a trigger to stir reality in my mind, and y own memory. Full of resentment from being yanked involuntarily out of the Way, I simply refused to believe the bad things that I was hearing about....namely the sexual assaults then rapes. Finally the trigger came, in the form of "Losing the Way", written by a person I had been with in the Way Corps, even in the same state during my apprentice year. Empathizing with her and many who were subjected to rape and sexual assault, I finally believed them, Kristen's book striking so many bells and raising red flags like crazy in front of my face. All that, and help from a non Way related survivor friend, brught back the memory of my own sexual assault. So though it didn't bear fruit with me right away, Waydale, followed by Greasespot, laid the groundwork for recalling my trauma, for which I have been undergoing therapy since 2017. .
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Bolshevik
Are you blaming children for the women raped before they were born?
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Bolshevik
Again you're making stuff up.
These people were not in TWI.
Waydale cut off avenues for people trying to leave.
Again, you blame children for VPW.
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Raf
Bolshevik, you are seriously out of line with these accusations.
Someone fed you a line about Waydale and you're repeating b.s. as history.
Respectfully, you haven't the slightest f'ing idea what you're talking about.
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Bolshevik
My anguish was caused by ostracism caused by the websites I was not involved with. And decades of consequences that followed.
Waydale was meant for bastad cult followers. Your business should have been between you and your leaders
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Bolshevik
I am not out of line as this was repeated in numerous unrelated situations.
If the truth bothers you I won't apologize.
It was your cult Raf. You guys joined, you guys made websites. Their your leaders.
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Raf
The truth doesn't bother me but your lies do.
f-you right back, bro.
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