In my opinion, a concise version of wierwille’s switcheroo strategy is on page 23 & 24 of The Bible Tells Me So, in the chapter Are You Limiting God? wierwille says:
".. . We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,' and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, 'Sufficiency in everything.'
We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true.
As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world.
The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man."
Well done, T-Bone! I read all of it through tears of laughter brought on by the excerpt above.
The 'ol swtcheroo. That's it. All the time. Brilliant. Bull$hit wouldn't be bull$hit without it - intellectually and spiritually.
53 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.
I may tackle this one sentence for extra credit. But, Gawd, what a logical and linguistic mess! First, I need to dry the tears of laughter from my eyes and change my pants.
At the very beginning of the Orange Book- and, thus, the pfal foundational class- vpw violated his own rule rather blatantly to BEGIN the thing.
When he spoke about "the abundant life", he made it clear that he meant a life with significant FINANCIAL abundance. He complained that the Christians around him didn't manifest an abundant life, let alone a more abundant life, but many unbelievers did. As if God Almighty promised us all financial riches. That's something that could be seen with the 5 senses. (As has been pointed out before, "life more abundant" is not a promise of financial abundance.)
Well done, T-Bone! I read all of it through tears of laughter brought on by the excerpt above.
The 'ol swtcheroo. That's it. All the time. Brilliant. Bull$hit wouldn't be bull$hit without it - intellectually and spiritually.
I may tackle this one sentence for extra credit. But, Gawd, what a logical and linguistic mess! First, I need to dry the tears of laughter from my eyes and change my pants.
Interesting point, Nathan!
Sometimes I wonder if there’s a part of my mind that is almost like a vacuum or a void – it wants to be filled with something…I was definitely in a search mode when I came across TWI…I let wierwille’s bull$hit fill that void for a while.
Speaking of defining bull$hit – I read something interesting by Harry G. Frankfurt - he is professor emeritus of philosophy at Princeton University, where he taught from 1990 until 2002 – he has also taught at Yale University, Rockefeller University, and Ohio State University:
“It does seem that bull$hitting involves a kind of bluff. It is closer to bluffing, surely, than telling a lie…Lying and bluffing are both modes of misrepresentation or deception. Now the concept most central to the distinctive nature of a lie is that of falsity…Bluffing too, is typically devoted to conveying something false…the essence of bull$hit is not that it is false but that it is phony. In order to appreciate this distinction, one must recognize that a fake or phony need not be in any respect (apart from authenticity itself) inferior to the real thing. What is not genuine need not also be defective in some other way. What is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made”
From On Bull$hit
When Frankfurt said what is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made – that got me thinking - one of the most revealing characteristics of wierwille’s bull$hit is the shoddy workmanship. Under scrutiny it does not hold up well.
I like to think I've matured in my cognitive skills...for me now, there's nothing more satisfying than ruminating over well-made bull$hit.
Edited by T-Bone The best thing about edithing iz editinge
At the very beginning of the Orange Book- and, thus, the pfal foundational class- vpw violated his own rule rather blatantly to BEGIN the thing.
When he spoke about "the abundant life", he made it clear that he meant a life with significant FINANCIAL abundance. He complained that the Christians around him didn't manifest an abundant life, let alone a more abundant life, but many unbelievers did. As if God Almighty promised us all financial riches. That's something that could be seen with the 5 senses. (As has been pointed out before, "life more abundant" is not a promise of financial abundance.)
Right there Wierwille, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, connected the dots to his "abundant sharing" mantra. This shows that is was all, or at least primarily, about HIM making a living by conning followers into believing God would "open the floodgates" to them IF they tithed and then some (to him). By all accounts, including records previously shared on GSC, it worked. Millions of dollars, it worked.
Quite a scheme, wouldn't you say?
Then there's the mere subsistence level wages The Way Corporation paid its employees...
Btw, taking the PFLAP class at age 20 (on an island in the Atlantic Ocean), having had minimal life experience or college education by that point in my life, I did NOT, at that time, have eyes to see or ears to hear the reality of that economic scheme.
“It does seem that bull$hitting involves a kind of bluff. It is closer to bluffing, surely, than telling a lie…Lying and bluffing are both modes of misrepresentation or deception. Now the concept most central to the distinctive nature of a lie is that of falsity…Bluffing too, is typically devoted to conveying something false…the essence of bull$hit is not that it is false but that it is phony. In order to appreciate this distinction, one must recognize that a fake or phony need not be in any respect (apart from authenticity itself) inferior to the real thing. What is not genuine need not also be defective in some other way. What is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made”
From On Bull$hit
I consider Harry Frankfurt a good friend who I got to know, at least a little bit, from reading On Bull$hit.
At the very beginning of the Orange Book- and, thus, the pfal foundational class- vpw violated his own rule rather blatantly to BEGIN the thing.
When he spoke about "the abundant life", he made it clear that he meant a life with significant FINANCIAL abundance. He complained that the Christians around him didn't manifest an abundant life, let alone a more abundant life, but many unbelievers did. As if God Almighty promised us all financial riches. That's something that could be seen with the 5 senses. (As has been pointed out before, "life more abundant" is not a promise of financial abundance.)
52 minutes ago, Rocky said:
Right there Wierwille, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, connected the dots to his "abundant sharing" mantra. This shows that is was all, or at least primarily, about HIM making a living by conning followers into believing God would "open the floodgates" to them IF they tithed and then some (to him). By all accounts, including records previously shared on GSC, it worked. Millions of dollars, it worked.
Quite a scheme, wouldn't you say?
Then there's the mere subsistence level wages The Way Corporation paid its employees...
Btw, taking the PFLAP class at age 20 (on an island in the Atlantic Ocean), having had minimal life experience or college education by that point in my life, I did NOT, at that time, have eyes to see or ears to hear the reality of that economic scheme.
YES, YES, YES, YES, YES WordWolf and Rocky !!!!!
wierwille’s abundant sharing mantra was one of the core elements in his switcheroo.
It is no secret that wierwille was heavily influenced by E.W. Kenyon…after all they say plagiarism is the highest form of piracy …Here’s some noteworthy excerpts from Wikipedia about Kenyon and prosperity theology, the power of believing, and positive confessions:
E. W. Kenyon, a Baptist minister and adherent of the Higher Life movement, is credited with introducing mind-power teachings into early Pentecostalism. In the 1890s, Kenyon attended Emerson College of Oratory where he was exposed to the New Thought movement. Kenyon later became connected with well-known Pentecostal leaders and wrote about supernatural revelation and positive declarations. His writing influenced leaders of the nascent prosperity movement during the post-war American healing revival. Kenyon and later leaders in the prosperity movement have denied that he was influenced by the New Thought movement. Anthropologist Simon Coleman argues that there are "obvious parallels" between Kenyon's teachings and New Thought.
Kenyon taught that Christ's substitutionary atonement secured for believers a right to divine healing. This was attained through positive, faith-filled speech; the spoken word of God allowed believers to appropriate the same spiritual power that God used to create the world and attain the provisions promised in Christ's death and resurrection.
Prayer was understood to be a binding, legal act. Rather than asking, Kenyon taught believers to demand healing since they were already legally entitled to receive it.
Kenyon's blend of evangelical religion and mind-power beliefs—what he termed "overcoming faith"—resonated with a small but influential segment of the Pentecostal movement.
Prosperity theology teaches that Christians are entitled to well-being and, because spiritual and physical realities are seen as one inseparable reality, interprets well-being as physical health and economic prosperity. Teachers of the doctrine focus on personal empowerment, promoting a positive view of the spirit and body. They maintain that Christians have been given power over creation because they are made in the image of God and teach that positive confession allows Christians to exercise dominion over their souls and material objects around them.
Leaders of the movement view the atonement as providing for the alleviation of sickness, poverty, and spiritual corruption; poverty and illness are cast as curses which can be broken by faith and righteous actions…
…Wealth is interpreted in prosperity theology as a blessing from God, obtained through a spiritual law of positive confession, visualization, and donations. Believers may see this process in almost mechanical terms.
Kenneth Copeland, an American author and televangelist, argues that prosperity is governed by laws, while other teachers portray the process formulaically…
…The prosperity theology teaching of positive confession stems from its proponents' view of scripture. The Bible is seen as a faith contract between God and believers; God is understood to be faithful and just, so believers must fulfill their end of the contract to receive God's promises. This leads to a belief in positive confession: the doctrine that believers may claim whatever they desire from God, simply by speaking it.
Prosperity theology teaches that the Bible has promised prosperity for believers, so positive confession means that believers are speaking in faith what God has already spoken about them.
Positive confession is practiced to bring about what is already believed-in; faith itself is a confession, and speaking it brings it into reality.
The teaching often depends on non-traditional interpretations of Bible verses, the Book of Malachi often being given special attention. While Christians have generally celebrated Malachi for its passages about the Messiah, teachers of prosperity theology usually draw attention to its descriptions of physical wealth. Frequently quoted verses include:
Malachi 3:10: "'Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.'"
John 10:10: "'I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.'"
Philippians 4:19: "My God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
3 John 1:2: "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth."
Prosperity theology casts itself as the reclamation of true doctrine and thus part of a path to Christian dominion over secular society. It contends that God's promises of prosperity and victory to Israel in the Old Testament apply to New-Covenant Christians today, and that faith and holy actions release this prosperity…
…Prosperity-theology advocates also argue that biblical promises of blessings awaiting the poor have been unnecessarily spiritualized, and should be understood literally
As a Christian I think one of the most alarming aspects of wierwille’s switcheroo is that it is conducive to idolatry. What is idolatry? One simple definition I found online – idolatry is extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone. I can make anything or anyone an idol…That’s what I call an extremely flexible sin! Very adaptive…I like that in a sin. Something that will fit in nicely – even with my unique lifestyle…I know what you’re thinking “what the hell does he do all day?” …I’m busy making golden idols…just kidding…I only do that part time now. But never on a Sunday – hey, I’ve got principles!
Here's another passage about a switcheroo:
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.Romans 1:25
Do you remember some of the definitions of “switcheroo”? Deceptive swap, change, variation, or reversal…note the word “exchanged” in Rom. 1:25 NIV
“Worshipped” and “served” also jump out in that passage. Which ties into this passage:
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.I Timothy 6:10
Anything you cherish…anything you love – you will guard carefully – because you treasureit:
19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. Matthew 6: 19-24
What is it to SERVE money? When we perform services or duties to it – when we do WHATEVER it takes to get it – it’s like money is the master – the boss – it has the power to put the kibosh on any qualms we might have about doing something morally questionable! Money has become our master, our idol…we just love it – we’ll do anything for it - no questions asked!
In TWI I never thought of myself as a materialistic person – but it was hard not to get caught up in the wishful thinking of being affluent as I did VOLUNTEER work for a money-grubbing ministry that is big on the prosperity theology...and we were all considered a soft-sell sales force anyway, peddling classes on the Bible in a warm market – friends, relatives, neighbors, work associates, etc.
And I was a reluctant salesman to boot – partly because I wasn't completely sold on this prosperity theology myself. It's difficult to be enthused about promoting the more than abundant life as defined by TWI when all too often my wife and I were just barely getting by ourselves - working our secular jobs, faithfully giving more than 10 percent of our income – sometimes that even meant skimping on cost of living expenses. And besides that, we were also sponsoring people in the way corps program, running fellowships, classes, advances, coffee houses, and getting around town hauling folks to and from classes, events, big meetings by driving clunkers (vehicles in bad condition because we were usually too financially strapped to do something about it) ...you name it – we did it – and without the financial support of TWI.
Why there was a time in my life when I would have probably given anything to have a million dollars!
And that’s a whole other unhealthy aspect of the prosperity theology - how it metastasized into TWI’s money-grubbing mentality – which leads followers into a blind alley of materialism – that’s the real issue Jesus was addressing in Matthew 6: 19 – 24.
He talked about a very unusual predicament – what if the light within you is darkness. That is certainly ironic. I used to understand this passage as referring to someone who is stubborn and closeminded thinking that they are enlightened but in fact are still in the dark. While that may be one way to interpret it - the context seems to suggest the problem is not with one having weird views of the Bible – but of how one views material possessions.
Note the unavoidable choice between two alternatives in each passage: treasures on earth or treasures in heaven – healthy eyes or unhealthy eyes – serving God or serving money. What is critical is making the right choice – a good decision. Good decisions hinge on mental clarity - a state of psychological well-being in which we can use our cognitive skills to function in society and meet the demands of everyday life. Jesus used an analogy of the human eyes to teach about spiritual sight. What we find in this passage is a lesson showing how critical our outlook on life is as well as our motives in determining the health-status of our spiritual sight.
With our eyes we navigate our way – but Jesus was not referring to the eyes as being the SOURCE of light for our body – but rather that the eyes ALLOW the light to come in – becoming as it were a lamp to the body – for our body depends on that visual information for guidance. The iris of the human eye is similar to the adjustable aperture on a camera lens – it functions to control the amount of light that is allowed to pass through the lens. There are several diseases that can affect the proper functioning of the iris as well as simple blunt trauma to the eye.
Jesus contrasted healthy with unhealthy spiritual eyes. And he makes the point that the health of spiritual sight could be threatened by one’s attitude toward material possessions. Jesus does not deny the reality or value of earthly things, but he does refute the permanence of earthly things. With a gaze firmly fixed on earthly things it’s conceivable a materialistic cult-leader could shoot back at Jesus “I can see just fine. Are YOU blind? Look at all the abundance that God has showered upon this ministry.” Jesus’ comment defines their plight - if that is how they “see” things - then indeed they are in great darkness…which makes me want to ask anyone in TWI reading this post – why should you trust the “spiritual insight” of The Way International? They are blind leading the blindMatthew 15:14.
wierwille’s money-grubbing attitude has ALWAYS been in play…Jimmy Doop was part of The Way West back in the "glory days" of TWI talked about wierwille’s plan to take over the states’ rights in 1971, of all the fellowships, and he was going to control all of the states and their MONEY - read it in his own words here > Jimmy Doop's post September 8th, 2005
I think one of the dangers of buying in to any of wierwille’s portfolio of switcheroos are the hidden costs.
“The saying, "If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is" can often apply to shopping deals laced with hidden costs. Take discount airlines, for example. The airfare is advertised for hundreds of dollars less than the major competitors, but when travelers go to book their trip, they're suddenly hit with extraneous fees for selecting a seat, bringing a carry-on suitcase, and in-flight refreshments – even water!...When making the commitment to buy a home, it's important to consider the hidden costs. Application fees, inspection fees, closing costs – when added up, these costs can drive the final price up by thousands of dollars.”
What are some of the hidden costs of TWI-involvement? Did it cost you a marriage? Did it drive a wedge in any family relationships because they didn’t stand with the ministry? Did your network of non-TWI-friends become far less important to you than TWI’s agenda? Were any personal preferences, priorities, dreams, goals, ambitions sidetracked by the demands of your TWI-responsibilities? For instance, did you put off college or graduate school? Did it cost you any career advancements or any business opportunities?
Me? I like to keep things simple – what is the real cost of buying into a harmful and controlling cult? Your soul…but others may differ…I know there’s some folks who probably believe there’s been a fair exchange of goods and services during their TWI involvement.
wierwille was a phony-buckeroo with the mostest switcheroos!
Edited by T-Bone editors getting paid per typo will sing “we’re in the money!” while fixing my posts
Sometimes I wonder if there’s a part of my mind that is almost like a vacuum or a void – it wants to be filled with something…I was definitely in a search mode when I came across TWI…I let wierwille’s bull$hit fill that void for a while.
Speaking of defining bull$hit – I read something interesting by Harry G. Frankfurt - he is professor emeritus of philosophy at Princeton University, where he taught from 1990 until 2002 – he has also taught at Yale University, Rockefeller University, and Ohio State University:
“It does seem that bull$hitting involves a kind of bluff. It is closer to bluffing, surely, than telling a lie…Lying and bluffing are both modes of misrepresentation or deception. Now the concept most central to the distinctive nature of a lie is that of falsity…Bluffing too, is typically devoted to conveying something false…the essence of bull$hit is not that it is false but that it is phony. In order to appreciate this distinction, one must recognize that a fake or phony need not be in any respect (apart from authenticity itself) inferior to the real thing. What is not genuine need not also be defective in some other way. What is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made”
From On Bull$hit
When Frankfurt said what is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made – that got me thinking - one of the most revealing characteristics of wierwille’s bull$hit is the shoddy workmanship. Under scrutiny it does not hold up well.
I like to think I've matured in my cognitive skills...for me now, there's nothing more satisfying than ruminating over well-made bull$hit.
Amen.
It's not that it's not true - it's not EVEN true. It's bull$hit! Frankfurt goes on to explain bull$hit is never concerned with the truth - it is concerned with PERSUASION.
What is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made.
Like the four crucified counterfeit. Bullinger's logic, hermeneutics and textual analysis are all fallacious.* The conclusion of four crucified is based on flawed, phony premises, flawed assumptions and methodology (how it's made). It is a claim of historic fact but shrugs off a historical-critical approach in favor of an odious ride on a carousel of excrement - in favor of bull$hit methodology in order to persuade, to impress, to obscure, to zombify. Only the immature can buy the premises and conclusion.
The "logic" of four crucified is similar to the logic used by flat-earthers: Truth and fact and evidence shall not get in the way of two grown men playing in the feces of another.
It's not that four crucified is not true - it's not EVEN true! It's phony. It's bull$hit.
* Bullinger on the surface seems impressive. And in a few ways, he is. HOWEVER, Bullinger was a dilettante. There are better lexicons and better commentaries without all the pretense and sleight of hand.
Edited by Nathan_Jr An oily Okie, a dog beater and a music coordinator walk into a bar....
What is it to SERVE money? When we perform services or duties to it – when we do WHATEVER it takes to get it – it’s like money is the master – the boss – it has the power to put the kibosh on any qualms we might have about doing something morally questionable! Money has become our master, our idol…we just love it – we’ll do anything for it - no questions asked!
In TWI I never thought of myself as a materialistic person – but it was hard not to get caught up in the wishful thinking of being affluent as I did VOLUNTEER work for a money-grubbing ministry that is big on the prosperity theology...and we were all considered a soft-sell sales force anyway, peddling classes on the Bible in a warm market – friends, relatives, neighbors, work associates, etc.
And I was a reluctant salesman to boot – partly because I wasn't completely sold on this prosperity theology myself. It's difficult to be enthused about promoting the more than abundant life as defined by TWI when all too often my wife and I were just barely getting by ourselves - working our secular jobs, faithfully giving more than 10 percent of our income – sometimes that even meant skimping on cost of living expenses. And besides that, we were also sponsoring people in the way corps program, running fellowships, classes, advances, coffee houses, and getting around town hauling folks to and from classes, events, big meetings by driving clunkers (vehicles in bad condition because we were usually too financially strapped to do something about it) ...you name it – we did it – and without the financial support of TWI.
Damn, T-Bone. Flashback trigger. My aunt and uncle and cousins were in Amway. This was their life. Relentless driving hundreds of miles through the night while listening to propaganda tapes. All the driving. The classes. The meetings. The speakers. The teachers. The books. The tapes. The coffee. The phony love bombing. The prosperity gospel. The pressure to sign people up. The fantasy. So many parallels to TWI and victor's scheme.
Of course, Amway is a cult just like TWI. They always referred to it as "The Business." NEVER Amway. Much like TWI zombies call it "The Ministry."
These parallels may have been evident to me in the past, but your description of the cult prosperity grind vividly brought it into my present awareness.
Edited by Nathan_Jr A man with oily hair, the man who oiled it, and a coordinator of music walked into a bar...
It's not that it's not true - it's not EVEN true. It's bull$hit! Frankfurt goes on to explain bull$hit is never concerned with the truth - it is concerned with PERSUASION.
What is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made.
Like the four crucified counterfeit. Bullinger's logic, hermeneutics and textual analysis are all fallacious.* The conclusion of four crucified is based on flawed, phony premises, flawed assumptions and methodology (how it's made). It is a claim of historic fact but shrugs off a historical-critical approach in favor of an odious ride on a carousel of excrement - in favor of bull$hit methodology in order to persuade, to impress, to obscure, to zombify. Only the immature can buy the premises and conclusion.
The "logic" of four crucified is similar to the logic used by flat-earthers: Truth and fact and evidence shall not get in the way of two grown men playing in the feces of another.
It's not that four crucified is not true - it's not EVEN true! It's phony. It's bull$hit.
* Bullinger on the surface seems impressive. And in a few ways, he is. HOWEVER, Bullinger was a dilettante. There are better lexicons and better commentaries without all the pretense and sleight of hand.
An online definition of dilettante is a person who cultivates an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge; synonyms are dabbler, tinkerer, trifler, dallier, amateur, nonprofessional, non-specialist, layman…I would definitely consider wierwille a dilettante. And according to that definition I would also categorize myself as one – on Grease Spot I’ve never put on airs about systematic theology, hermeneutics and such – that stuff is just an enjoyable hobby to me…realistically though among participants in any pursuit there’s going to be degrees of competency depending on each person’s skillset…what does it say about wierwille when there’s someone like me - being just a Bible study bug with no formal education in systematic theology, hermeneutics and such – and yet I can easily shoot holes in wierwille’s ideology?
Now I think E.W. Bullingeris in a different class. I wouldn’t call him an amateur. I have some of his works and still appreciate his stuff for the detailed critical analysis of the Scriptures ( see Biblical criticism ) – BUT – in my opinion where Bullinger tended to get off track was invariably holding to the plenary verbal inspiration theory – how some scholars assume the Scriptures were written - the theory speculates that God’s inspiration extends to ALL of Scripture – WHICH INCLUDES when the writers recorded any historical, physical science and life science details…That’s where Bullinger and I part company…Wikipedia says “He was a member of the Universal Zetetic Society, a group dedicated to believing and promoting the idea that the earth is flat, and on 7 March 1905, he chaired a meeting in Exeter Hall, London, in which the flat earth theory was expounded.” I think Bullinger had a genuine love for the Scriptures – but perhaps with his dogmatic approach he’d wind up shooting himself in the foot – like coming up with 4 crucified with Jesus Christ and being so keen on dispensationalism…That’s one of the many reasons why I don’t subscribe to the Bible being the inerrant word of God.
Another interesting sidenote on Bullinger-Wikipedia also says Bullinger's views were often unique and sometimes controversial. He is so closely tied to what is now called ultradispensationalism that it is sometimes referred to as Bullingerism.Noted dispensationalistHarry A. Ironside(1876–1951) declared Bullingerism an "absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth." How’s that for peer review!
In my opinion Bullinger may have been a misguided scholar – but wierwille was simply a hack!
Damn, T-Bone. Flashback trigger. My aunt and uncle and cousins were in Amway. This was their life. Relentless driving hundreds of miles through the night while listening to propaganda tapes. All the driving. The classes. The meetings. The speakers. The teachers. The books. The tapes. The coffee. The phony love bombing. The prosperity gospel. The pressure to sign people up. The fantasy. So many parallels to TWI and victor's scheme.
Of course, Amway is a cult just like TWI. They always referred to it as "The Business." NEVER Amway. Much like TWI zombies call it "The Ministry."
These parallels may have been evident to me in the past, but your description of the cult prosperity grind vividly brought it into my present awareness.
Waysider posted this originally.
REPOST
Posted 29 July 2006 - 08:42 PM
A number of years ago a young couple, who were friends of mine, asked me to attend a business oportunity meeting they were going to present for a small group of people. Their description of what was to be presented was very vague . This vagueness was , of course , intentional. My suspicion was that this would be a recruitment meeting for Axway. The gentleman conducting the meeting stated very early on that there were to be no questions until the end. Sound familiar? Well, as the meeting progressed, he showed how, if Bob recruited Joe, and Joe recruited Betty, And Betty recruited Connie , and Connie RECRUITED----------in the end we would all be filthy rich. People raised their hands to ask questions as he spoke, but he continued to assure everyone all questions would be answered at the end. When he finally revealed that the product this company sold was actually soap, an elderly lady, who seemed harmless enough, raised her hand from the back row. The man running the meeting let down his guard for just a moment and said "yes ma'am?". She immediately stood up and said "Who the hell is supposed to sell the SOAP?' It kind of makes me wonder "who the hell was supposed to LIVE the abundant life?" Not complaining-------just pondering.
Damn, T-Bone. Flashback trigger. My aunt and uncle and cousins were in Amway. This was their life. Relentless driving hundreds of miles through the night while listening to propaganda tapes. All the driving. The classes. The meetings. The speakers. The teachers. The books. The tapes. The coffee. The phony love bombing. The prosperity gospel. The pressure to sign people up. The fantasy. So many parallels to TWI and victor's scheme.
Of course, Amway is a cult just like TWI. They always referred to it as "The Business." NEVER Amway. Much like TWI zombies call it "The Ministry."
These parallels may have been evident to me in the past, but your description of the cult prosperity grind vividly brought it into my present awareness.
51 minutes ago, WordWolf said:
Waysider posted this originally.
REPOST
Posted 29 July 2006 - 08:42 PM
A number of years ago a young couple, who were friends of mine, asked me to attend a business oportunity meeting they were going to present for a small group of people. Their description of what was to be presented was very vague . This vagueness was , of course , intentional. My suspicion was that this would be a recruitment meeting for Axway. The gentleman conducting the meeting stated very early on that there were to be no questions until the end. Sound familiar? Well, as the meeting progressed, he showed how, if Bob recruited Joe, and Joe recruited Betty, And Betty recruited Connie , and Connie RECRUITED----------in the end we would all be filthy rich. People raised their hands to ask questions as he spoke, but he continued to assure everyone all questions would be answered at the end. When he finally revealed that the product this company sold was actually soap, an elderly lady, who seemed harmless enough, raised her hand from the back row. The man running the meeting let down his guard for just a moment and said "yes ma'am?". She immediately stood up and said "Who the hell is supposed to sell the SOAP?' It kind of makes me wonder "who the hell was supposed to LIVE the abundant life?" Not complaining-------just pondering.
My wife and I have had our home invaded by multilevel marketers a few times by Saladmaster , Shaklee , and Amway!...We didn’t get involved in any of them – why should we were in “the best” MLM
1. Someone invited this guy to our Twig because he said he’d like to hear about “The Word” and feed a delicious homecooked meal for the fellowship. Ba-da-boom – Saladmaster ! When this guy heard my wife and I had a side gig of new construction cleanup – he said he had so many business connections in town – we’d be set for life!
2. Same Twig – different day – a Twig coordinator from another town comes over with tripod easel and charts to show us how “Shaklee is so of God” his exact words.
3. Different state – invited a work associate - another security tech and his wife over to our apartment for dinner – figured I’d witness to both of them then... At work he came across as a bubba – kinda mumbled when he talked – seemed like a good old boy – we called him Junior…anyway after dinner he goes out to his car and retrieves a tripod easel and charts – uh oh number 1…then comes uh oh number 2 - as he launches into his spiel, his whole demeanor does an amazing transformation – he is articulate – refined even – telling us how excited he was that next year “come July One” he will be able to retire from the security company – thank you Amway!
Edited by T-Bone oh my gawd - I'm being edited !!!!!!
An online definition of dilettante is a person who cultivates an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge; synonyms are dabbler, tinkerer, trifler, dallier, amateur, nonprofessional, non-specialist, layman…I would definitely consider wierwille a dilettante. And according to that definition I would also categorize myself as one – on Grease Spot I’ve never put on airs about systematic theology, hermeneutics and such – that stuff is just an enjoyable hobby to me…realistically though among participants in any pursuit there’s going to be degrees of competency depending on each person’s skillset…what does it say about wierwille when there’s someone like me - being just a Bible study bug with no formal education in systematic theology, hermeneutics and such – and yet I can easily shoot holes in wierwille’s ideology?
Now I think E.W. Bullingeris in a different class. I wouldn’t call him an amateur. I have some of his works and still appreciate his stuff for the detailed critical analysis of the Scriptures ( see Biblical criticism ) – BUT – in my opinion where Bullinger tended to get off track was invariably holding to the plenary verbal inspiration theory – how some scholars assume the Scriptures were written - the theory speculates that God’s inspiration extends to ALL of Scripture – WHICH INCLUDES when the writers recorded any historical, physical science and life science details…That’s where Bullinger and I part company…Wikipedia says “He was a member of the Universal Zetetic Society, a group dedicated to believing and promoting the idea that the earth is flat, and on 7 March 1905, he chaired a meeting in Exeter Hall, London, in which the flat earth theory was expounded.” I think Bullinger had a genuine love for the Scriptures – but perhaps with his dogmatic approach he’d wind up shooting himself in the foot – like coming up with 4 crucified with Jesus Christ and being so keen on dispensationalism…That’s one of the many reasons why I don’t subscribe to the Bible being the inerrant word of God.
Another interesting sidenote on Bullinger-Wikipedia also says Bullinger's views were often unique and sometimes controversial. He is so closely tied to what is now called ultradispensationalism that it is sometimes referred to as Bullingerism.Noted dispensationalistHarry A. Ironside(1876–1951) declared Bullingerism an "absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth." How’s that for peer review!
In my opinion Bullinger may have been a misguided scholar – but wierwille was simply a hack!
Well, with a mouth full of crow, I readily admit to the misuse of dilettante as a cheap ad hominem. It's perhaps a hard-dying childish reflex to want to grab someone by the lapel and shake some sense into them. Misguided scholar is nicer. Inaccurate, misguided scholar is more precise. Again, errors are ONLY a problem for inerrantists.
I'm not sure why four crucified has been on my brain lately. It really does require either willful ignorance or astonishing naïveté to accept this deeply flawed argument. It's enough error for me to chuck all of Bullinger's work in the discard pile. If he was so egregiously wrong about that, what else was he wrong about? I won't waste my time with him. He's not the only Bible scholar to have ever brushed paper with ink.
I would never call you a dilettante. The moniker has negative implications. The dilettante is more than a dabbler - he is a pretentious know-it-all, one who knows just enough to fake it, like victor; one who knows something, and based on this pretends to know everything. It's closely related to poseur. Dilettantes hate to be questioned, lest they're found out.
I'm also well aware of his support for the flat-earthers. For me, this is another reason to find him incredulous.
I’m not a fan of Bullinger’s theology - if you reread my post and click on the Biblical criticism link - you’ll get an idea of the thing I thought he was pretty good at -the text , the original languages/syntax and literary forms - but I think maybe he was so hyper focused on details - it was one of those can’t see the forest for the trees thing - he couldn’t see the bigger picture - a systematic theology
I’m not a fan of Bullinger’s theology - if you reread my post and click on the Biblical criticism link - you’ll get an idea of the thing I thought he was pretty good at -the text , the original languages/syntax and literary forms - but I think maybe he was so hyper focused on details - it was one of those can’t see the forest for the trees thing - he couldn’t see the bigger picture - a systematic theology
Yes, I read that wiki page. I'm aware aware enough of the methodologies of biblical criticism and critical textual analysis to know that attempts to harmonize require lots of fudging, logical leaps and textual manipulation. (The PERCEIVED errors become problematic ONLY to the inerrantist trying to MAKE them fit.) Smashing the four canonical gospels together into one big gospel in order to add two robbers and two malefactors together to make four is not how it works - at least from an honest historical-critical perspective. And four crucified is an historical claim, requiring historical-critical analysis.
Even some, not all, of his literary analysis around syntax doesn't add up. Especially, in his four crucified bit. It seems to me it is exactly his dogmatic systematic theology that gets in his own way. Indeed, he misses the forest for the trees, as did victor.
There are some technical things he handles very well, I'm sure. But it's not enough to persuade me to waste my time with him, especially in light of the four crucified and flat earth and hyper dispensational silliness.
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Nathan_Jr
Well done, T-Bone! I read all of it through tears of laughter brought on by the excerpt above.
The 'ol swtcheroo. That's it. All the time. Brilliant. Bull$hit wouldn't be bull$hit without it - intellectually and spiritually.
I may tackle this one sentence for extra credit. But, Gawd, what a logical and linguistic mess! First, I need to dry the tears of laughter from my eyes and change my pants.
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WordWolf
At the very beginning of the Orange Book- and, thus, the pfal foundational class- vpw violated his own rule rather blatantly to BEGIN the thing.
When he spoke about "the abundant life", he made it clear that he meant a life with significant FINANCIAL abundance. He complained that the Christians around him didn't manifest an abundant life, let alone a more abundant life, but many unbelievers did. As if God Almighty promised us all financial riches. That's something that could be seen with the 5 senses. (As has been pointed out before, "life more abundant" is not a promise of financial abundance.)
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T-Bone
Interesting point, Nathan!
Sometimes I wonder if there’s a part of my mind that is almost like a vacuum or a void – it wants to be filled with something…I was definitely in a search mode when I came across TWI…I let wierwille’s bull$hit fill that void for a while.
Speaking of defining bull$hit – I read something interesting by Harry G. Frankfurt - he is professor emeritus of philosophy at Princeton University, where he taught from 1990 until 2002 – he has also taught at Yale University, Rockefeller University, and Ohio State University:
“It does seem that bull$hitting involves a kind of bluff. It is closer to bluffing, surely, than telling a lie…Lying and bluffing are both modes of misrepresentation or deception. Now the concept most central to the distinctive nature of a lie is that of falsity…Bluffing too, is typically devoted to conveying something false…the essence of bull$hit is not that it is false but that it is phony. In order to appreciate this distinction, one must recognize that a fake or phony need not be in any respect (apart from authenticity itself) inferior to the real thing. What is not genuine need not also be defective in some other way. What is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made”
From On Bull$hit
When Frankfurt said what is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made – that got me thinking - one of the most revealing characteristics of wierwille’s bull$hit is the shoddy workmanship. Under scrutiny it does not hold up well.
I like to think I've matured in my cognitive skills...for me now, there's nothing more satisfying than ruminating over well-made bull$hit.
Edited by T-BoneThe best thing about edithing iz editinge
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Rocky
Right there Wierwille, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, connected the dots to his "abundant sharing" mantra. This shows that is was all, or at least primarily, about HIM making a living by conning followers into believing God would "open the floodgates" to them IF they tithed and then some (to him). By all accounts, including records previously shared on GSC, it worked. Millions of dollars, it worked.
Edited by RockyQuite a scheme, wouldn't you say?
Then there's the mere subsistence level wages The Way Corporation paid its employees...
Btw, taking the PFLAP class at age 20 (on an island in the Atlantic Ocean), having had minimal life experience or college education by that point in my life, I did NOT, at that time, have eyes to see or ears to hear the reality of that economic scheme.
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Rocky
I consider Harry Frankfurt a good friend who I got to know, at least a little bit, from reading On Bull$hit.
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T-Bone
YES, YES, YES, YES, YES WordWolf and Rocky !!!!!
wierwille’s abundant sharing mantra was one of the core elements in his switcheroo.
It is no secret that wierwille was heavily influenced by E.W. Kenyon…after all they say plagiarism is the highest form of piracy
…Here’s some noteworthy excerpts from Wikipedia about Kenyon and prosperity theology, the power of believing, and positive confessions:
E. W. Kenyon, a Baptist minister and adherent of the Higher Life movement, is credited with introducing mind-power teachings into early Pentecostalism. In the 1890s, Kenyon attended Emerson College of Oratory where he was exposed to the New Thought movement. Kenyon later became connected with well-known Pentecostal leaders and wrote about supernatural revelation and positive declarations. His writing influenced leaders of the nascent prosperity movement during the post-war American healing revival. Kenyon and later leaders in the prosperity movement have denied that he was influenced by the New Thought movement. Anthropologist Simon Coleman argues that there are "obvious parallels" between Kenyon's teachings and New Thought.
Kenyon taught that Christ's substitutionary atonement secured for believers a right to divine healing. This was attained through positive, faith-filled speech; the spoken word of God allowed believers to appropriate the same spiritual power that God used to create the world and attain the provisions promised in Christ's death and resurrection.
Prayer was understood to be a binding, legal act. Rather than asking, Kenyon taught believers to demand healing since they were already legally entitled to receive it.
Kenyon's blend of evangelical religion and mind-power beliefs—what he termed "overcoming faith"—resonated with a small but influential segment of the Pentecostal movement.
Prosperity theology teaches that Christians are entitled to well-being and, because spiritual and physical realities are seen as one inseparable reality, interprets well-being as physical health and economic prosperity. Teachers of the doctrine focus on personal empowerment, promoting a positive view of the spirit and body. They maintain that Christians have been given power over creation because they are made in the image of God and teach that positive confession allows Christians to exercise dominion over their souls and material objects around them.
Leaders of the movement view the atonement as providing for the alleviation of sickness, poverty, and spiritual corruption; poverty and illness are cast as curses which can be broken by faith and righteous actions…
…Wealth is interpreted in prosperity theology as a blessing from God, obtained through a spiritual law of positive confession, visualization, and donations. Believers may see this process in almost mechanical terms.
Kenneth Copeland, an American author and televangelist, argues that prosperity is governed by laws, while other teachers portray the process formulaically…
…The prosperity theology teaching of positive confession stems from its proponents' view of scripture. The Bible is seen as a faith contract between God and believers; God is understood to be faithful and just, so believers must fulfill their end of the contract to receive God's promises. This leads to a belief in positive confession: the doctrine that believers may claim whatever they desire from God, simply by speaking it.
Prosperity theology teaches that the Bible has promised prosperity for believers, so positive confession means that believers are speaking in faith what God has already spoken about them.
Positive confession is practiced to bring about what is already believed-in; faith itself is a confession, and speaking it brings it into reality.
The teaching often depends on non-traditional interpretations of Bible verses, the Book of Malachi often being given special attention. While Christians have generally celebrated Malachi for its passages about the Messiah, teachers of prosperity theology usually draw attention to its descriptions of physical wealth. Frequently quoted verses include:
Malachi 3:10: "'Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.'"
John 10:10: "'I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.'"
Philippians 4:19: "My God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
3 John 1:2: "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth."
Prosperity theology casts itself as the reclamation of true doctrine and thus part of a path to Christian dominion over secular society. It contends that God's promises of prosperity and victory to Israel in the Old Testament apply to New-Covenant Christians today, and that faith and holy actions release this prosperity…
…Prosperity-theology advocates also argue that biblical promises of blessings awaiting the poor have been unnecessarily spiritualized, and should be understood literally
End of excerpts
From: Wikipedia – prosperity theology
~ ~ ~ ~
As a Christian I think one of the most alarming aspects of wierwille’s switcheroo is that it is conducive to idolatry. What is idolatry? One simple definition I found online – idolatry is extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone. I can make anything or anyone an idol…That’s what I call an extremely flexible sin! Very adaptive…I like that in a sin. Something that will fit in nicely – even with my unique lifestyle…I know what you’re thinking “what the hell does he do all day?” … I’m busy making golden idols …just kidding…I only do that part time now. But never on a Sunday – hey, I’ve got principles!
Here's another passage about a switcheroo:
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Romans 1:25
Do you remember some of the definitions of “switcheroo”? Deceptive swap, change, variation, or reversal…note the word “exchanged” in Rom. 1:25 NIV
“Worshipped” and “served” also jump out in that passage. Which ties into this passage:
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. I Timothy 6:10
Anything you cherish…anything you love – you will guard carefully – because you treasure it:
19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. Matthew 6: 19-24
What is it to SERVE money? When we perform services or duties to it – when we do WHATEVER it takes to get it – it’s like money is the master – the boss – it has the power to put the kibosh on any qualms we might have about doing something morally questionable! Money has become our master, our idol…we just love it – we’ll do anything for it - no questions asked!
In TWI I never thought of myself as a materialistic person – but it was hard not to get caught up in the wishful thinking of being affluent as I did VOLUNTEER work for a money-grubbing ministry that is big on the prosperity theology...and we were all considered a soft-sell sales force anyway, peddling classes on the Bible in a warm market – friends, relatives, neighbors, work associates, etc.
And I was a reluctant salesman to boot – partly because I wasn't completely sold on this prosperity theology myself. It's difficult to be enthused about promoting the more than abundant life as defined by TWI when all too often my wife and I were just barely getting by ourselves - working our secular jobs, faithfully giving more than 10 percent of our income – sometimes that even meant skimping on cost of living expenses. And besides that, we were also sponsoring people in the way corps program, running fellowships, classes, advances, coffee houses, and getting around town hauling folks to and from classes, events, big meetings by driving clunkers (vehicles in bad condition because we were usually too financially strapped to do something about it) ...you name it – we did it – and without the financial support of TWI.
Why there was a time in my life when I would have probably given anything to have a million dollars!
And that’s a whole other unhealthy aspect of the prosperity theology - how it metastasized into TWI’s money-grubbing mentality – which leads followers into a blind alley of materialism – that’s the real issue Jesus was addressing in Matthew 6: 19 – 24.
He talked about a very unusual predicament – what if the light within you is darkness. That is certainly ironic. I used to understand this passage as referring to someone who is stubborn and closeminded thinking that they are enlightened but in fact are still in the dark. While that may be one way to interpret it - the context seems to suggest the problem is not with one having weird views of the Bible – but of how one views material possessions.
Note the unavoidable choice between two alternatives in each passage: treasures on earth or treasures in heaven – healthy eyes or unhealthy eyes – serving God or serving money. What is critical is making the right choice – a good decision. Good decisions hinge on mental clarity - a state of psychological well-being in which we can use our cognitive skills to function in society and meet the demands of everyday life. Jesus used an analogy of the human eyes to teach about spiritual sight. What we find in this passage is a lesson showing how critical our outlook on life is as well as our motives in determining the health-status of our spiritual sight.
With our eyes we navigate our way – but Jesus was not referring to the eyes as being the SOURCE of light for our body – but rather that the eyes ALLOW the light to come in – becoming as it were a lamp to the body – for our body depends on that visual information for guidance. The iris of the human eye is similar to the adjustable aperture on a camera lens – it functions to control the amount of light that is allowed to pass through the lens. There are several diseases that can affect the proper functioning of the iris as well as simple blunt trauma to the eye.
Jesus contrasted healthy with unhealthy spiritual eyes. And he makes the point that the health of spiritual sight could be threatened by one’s attitude toward material possessions. Jesus does not deny the reality or value of earthly things, but he does refute the permanence of earthly things. With a gaze firmly fixed on earthly things it’s conceivable a materialistic cult-leader could shoot back at Jesus “I can see just fine. Are YOU blind? Look at all the abundance that God has showered upon this ministry.” Jesus’ comment defines their plight - if that is how they “see” things - then indeed they are in great darkness…which makes me want to ask anyone in TWI reading this post – why should you trust the “spiritual insight” of The Way International? They are blind leading the blind Matthew 15:14 .
wierwille’s money-grubbing attitude has ALWAYS been in play…Jimmy Doop was part of The Way West back in the "glory days" of TWI talked about wierwille’s plan to take over the states’ rights in 1971, of all the fellowships, and he was going to control all of the states and their MONEY - read it in his own words here > Jimmy Doop's post September 8th, 2005
I think one of the dangers of buying in to any of wierwille’s portfolio of switcheroos are the hidden costs.
“The saying, "If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is" can often apply to shopping deals laced with hidden costs. Take discount airlines, for example. The airfare is advertised for hundreds of dollars less than the major competitors, but when travelers go to book their trip, they're suddenly hit with extraneous fees for selecting a seat, bringing a carry-on suitcase, and in-flight refreshments – even water!...When making the commitment to buy a home, it's important to consider the hidden costs. Application fees, inspection fees, closing costs – when added up, these costs can drive the final price up by thousands of dollars.”
From an August 2016 article by Philadelphia Federal Credit Union: WHAT ARE HIDDEN COSTS?
What are some of the hidden costs of TWI-involvement? Did it cost you a marriage? Did it drive a wedge in any family relationships because they didn’t stand with the ministry? Did your network of non-TWI-friends become far less important to you than TWI’s agenda? Were any personal preferences, priorities, dreams, goals, ambitions sidetracked by the demands of your TWI-responsibilities? For instance, did you put off college or graduate school? Did it cost you any career advancements or any business opportunities?
Me? I like to keep things simple – what is the real cost of buying into a harmful and controlling cult? Your soul…but others may differ…I know there’s some folks who probably believe there’s been a fair exchange of goods and services during their TWI involvement.
wierwille was a phony-buckeroo with the mostest switcheroos!
Edited by T-Boneeditors getting paid per typo will sing “we’re in the money!” while fixing my posts
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Nathan_Jr
Amen.
It's not that it's not true - it's not EVEN true. It's bull$hit! Frankfurt goes on to explain bull$hit is never concerned with the truth - it is concerned with PERSUASION.
What is wrong with a counterfeit is not what it is like, but how it was made.
Like the four crucified counterfeit. Bullinger's logic, hermeneutics and textual analysis are all fallacious.* The conclusion of four crucified is based on flawed, phony premises, flawed assumptions and methodology (how it's made). It is a claim of historic fact but shrugs off a historical-critical approach in favor of an odious ride on a carousel of excrement - in favor of bull$hit methodology in order to persuade, to impress, to obscure, to zombify. Only the immature can buy the premises and conclusion.
The "logic" of four crucified is similar to the logic used by flat-earthers: Truth and fact and evidence shall not get in the way of two grown men playing in the feces of another.
It's not that four crucified is not true - it's not EVEN true! It's phony. It's bull$hit.
* Bullinger on the surface seems impressive. And in a few ways, he is. HOWEVER, Bullinger was a dilettante. There are better lexicons and better commentaries without all the pretense and sleight of hand.
Edited by Nathan_JrAn oily Okie, a dog beater and a music coordinator walk into a bar....
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Nathan_Jr
Damn, T-Bone. Flashback trigger. My aunt and uncle and cousins were in Amway. This was their life. Relentless driving hundreds of miles through the night while listening to propaganda tapes. All the driving. The classes. The meetings. The speakers. The teachers. The books. The tapes. The coffee. The phony love bombing. The prosperity gospel. The pressure to sign people up. The fantasy. So many parallels to TWI and victor's scheme.
Of course, Amway is a cult just like TWI. They always referred to it as "The Business." NEVER Amway. Much like TWI zombies call it "The Ministry."
These parallels may have been evident to me in the past, but your description of the cult prosperity grind vividly brought it into my present awareness.
Edited by Nathan_JrA man with oily hair, the man who oiled it, and a coordinator of music walked into a bar...
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T-Bone
An online definition of dilettante is a person who cultivates an area of interest, such as the arts, without real commitment or knowledge; synonyms are dabbler, tinkerer, trifler, dallier, amateur, nonprofessional, non-specialist, layman…I would definitely consider wierwille a dilettante. And according to that definition I would also categorize myself as one – on Grease Spot I’ve never put on airs about systematic theology, hermeneutics and such – that stuff is just an enjoyable hobby to me…realistically though among participants in any pursuit there’s going to be degrees of competency depending on each person’s skillset…what does it say about wierwille when there’s someone like me - being just a Bible study bug with no formal education in systematic theology, hermeneutics and such – and yet I can easily shoot holes in wierwille’s ideology?
Now I think E.W. Bullinger is in a different class. I wouldn’t call him an amateur. I have some of his works and still appreciate his stuff for the detailed critical analysis of the Scriptures ( see Biblical criticism ) – BUT – in my opinion where Bullinger tended to get off track was invariably holding to the plenary verbal inspiration theory – how some scholars assume the Scriptures were written - the theory speculates that God’s inspiration extends to ALL of Scripture – WHICH INCLUDES when the writers recorded any historical, physical science and life science details…That’s where Bullinger and I part company…Wikipedia says “He was a member of the Universal Zetetic Society, a group dedicated to believing and promoting the idea that the earth is flat, and on 7 March 1905, he chaired a meeting in Exeter Hall, London, in which the flat earth theory was expounded.” I think Bullinger had a genuine love for the Scriptures – but perhaps with his dogmatic approach he’d wind up shooting himself in the foot – like coming up with 4 crucified with Jesus Christ and being so keen on dispensationalism…That’s one of the many reasons why I don’t subscribe to the Bible being the inerrant word of God.
Another interesting sidenote on Bullinger - Wikipedia also says Bullinger's views were often unique and sometimes controversial. He is so closely tied to what is now called ultradispensationalism that it is sometimes referred to as Bullingerism. Noted dispensationalist Harry A. Ironside (1876–1951) declared Bullingerism an "absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth." How’s that for peer review!
In my opinion Bullinger may have been a misguided scholar – but wierwille was simply a hack!
~ ~ ~
Also check out some relevant links:
H.A. Ironside
Bible Reasons: covenant theology vs dispensationalism
3 reasons the Bible is not the inerrant word of God
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WordWolf
Waysider posted this originally.
REPOST
Posted 29 July 2006 - 08:42 PM
A number of years ago a young couple, who were friends of mine, asked me to attend a business oportunity meeting they were going to present for a small group of people. Their description of what was to be presented was very vague . This vagueness was , of course , intentional. My suspicion was that this would be a recruitment meeting for Axway. The gentleman conducting the meeting stated very early on that there were to be no questions until the end. Sound familiar? Well, as the meeting progressed, he showed how, if Bob recruited Joe, and Joe recruited Betty, And Betty recruited Connie , and Connie RECRUITED----------in the end we would all be filthy rich. People raised their hands to ask questions as he spoke, but he continued to assure everyone all questions would be answered at the end. When he finally revealed that the product this company sold was actually soap, an elderly lady, who seemed harmless enough, raised her hand from the back row. The man running the meeting let down his guard for just a moment and said "yes ma'am?". She immediately stood up and said "Who the hell is supposed to sell the SOAP?' It kind of makes me wonder "who the hell was supposed to LIVE the abundant life?" Not complaining-------just pondering.
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T-Bone
My wife and I have had our home invaded by multilevel marketers a few times by Saladmaster , Shaklee , and Amway!...We didn’t get involved in any of them – why should we were in “the best” MLM
1. Someone invited this guy to our Twig because he said he’d like to hear about “The Word” and feed a delicious homecooked meal for the fellowship. Ba-da-boom – Saladmaster ! When this guy heard my wife and I had a side gig of new construction cleanup – he said he had so many business connections in town – we’d be set for life!
2. Same Twig – different day – a Twig coordinator from another town comes over with tripod easel and charts to show us how “Shaklee is so of God” his exact words.
3. Different state – invited a work associate - another security tech and his wife over to our apartment for dinner – figured I’d witness to both of them then... At work he came across as a bubba – kinda mumbled when he talked – seemed like a good old boy – we called him Junior…anyway after dinner he goes out to his car and retrieves a tripod easel and charts – uh oh number 1…then comes uh oh number 2 - as he launches into his spiel, his whole demeanor does an amazing transformation – he is articulate – refined even – telling us how excited he was that next year “come July One” he will be able to retire from the security company – thank you Amway!
Edited by T-Boneoh my gawd - I'm being edited !!!!!!
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Nathan_Jr
Well, with a mouth full of crow, I readily admit to the misuse of dilettante as a cheap ad hominem. It's perhaps a hard-dying childish reflex to want to grab someone by the lapel and shake some sense into them. Misguided scholar is nicer. Inaccurate, misguided scholar is more precise. Again, errors are ONLY a problem for inerrantists.
I'm not sure why four crucified has been on my brain lately. It really does require either willful ignorance or astonishing naïveté to accept this deeply flawed argument. It's enough error for me to chuck all of Bullinger's work in the discard pile. If he was so egregiously wrong about that, what else was he wrong about? I won't waste my time with him. He's not the only Bible scholar to have ever brushed paper with ink.
I would never call you a dilettante. The moniker has negative implications. The dilettante is more than a dabbler - he is a pretentious know-it-all, one who knows just enough to fake it, like victor; one who knows something, and based on this pretends to know everything. It's closely related to poseur. Dilettantes hate to be questioned, lest they're found out.
I'm also well aware of his support for the flat-earthers. For me, this is another reason to find him incredulous.
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T-Bone
I’m not a fan of Bullinger’s theology - if you reread my post and click on the Biblical criticism link - you’ll get an idea of the thing I thought he was pretty good at -the text , the original languages/syntax and literary forms - but I think maybe he was so hyper focused on details - it was one of those can’t see the forest for the trees thing - he couldn’t see the bigger picture - a systematic theology
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Nathan_Jr
Yes, I read that wiki page. I'm aware aware enough of the methodologies of biblical criticism and critical textual analysis to know that attempts to harmonize require lots of fudging, logical leaps and textual manipulation. (The PERCEIVED errors become problematic ONLY to the inerrantist trying to MAKE them fit.) Smashing the four canonical gospels together into one big gospel in order to add two robbers and two malefactors together to make four is not how it works - at least from an honest historical-critical perspective. And four crucified is an historical claim, requiring historical-critical analysis.
Even some, not all, of his literary analysis around syntax doesn't add up. Especially, in his four crucified bit. It seems to me it is exactly his dogmatic systematic theology that gets in his own way. Indeed, he misses the forest for the trees, as did victor.
There are some technical things he handles very well, I'm sure. But it's not enough to persuade me to waste my time with him, especially in light of the four crucified and flat earth and hyper dispensational silliness.
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