I cannot remember the last year I went to the ROA, it all seems like a prolonged bad dream. Please allow me to meander through some of the memories from various years.
The first year was around 1975. Some new recruits of the W.O.W. program had to sleep on cots in a barn with occasional rats running about. There were showers to use, but there was no hot water, very invigorating in the late fall weather. Dannon Yogurt was plentiful, I remember seeing the trucks there.
Another year, I remember when they were drumming up money to build the W.O.W. Auditorium. At first VP said he didn't want his name on it, but he later caved in and said OK to his name being on it. The Way was asking for volunteers to help build the auditorium. By this time in my involvement, I was rather cool to the idea. Also, the Fountain of Living Waters was being planned and they were asking for donations. I didn't give any money to that effort either. It did not make sense to me with all the needs people have, that we would donate to a fountain that I would only see if I went to New Knoxville, maybe once a year.
Does anyone remember when people chipped in to buy VP a big Harley-Davidson motorcycle? As he was cruising slowly through the crowd, a plethora of professional and amateur photographers were chasing him and taking pictures of him on the motor cycle. Sometimes, I wonder if they were hired to show up. The cameras looked very expensive. Also, there was a quartet that sang a cappella singing songs like "The sons of the Pioneers". I can't remember their name, but when they were on the stage performing, they were very good, but VP couldn't resist stealing the spotlight, so he shuffled up on stage doing his adorable grandpa dance. Of course the crowd just ate it up, because they adored him so. So, right before they got the chorus of the song, VP would shout "SING IT!" and the crowd would go wild. Remember?
Jumping back to 1976, does anyone remember someone teaching about a constitutional crisis, or something like that, where we were supposedly in danger of losing our democracy? A reverend said he prayed to God on a beach to save our country. Apparently, the danger had passed and America survived another day. What was one of the benefits of the PFAL class? Enable you to separate truth from error? Well we don't have to worry about that any more, they stopped the PFAL classes, from what I've heard. And no more Rock of Ages? Amazing. No more Camp Gunnison? No more Way College of Emporia? I guess some people came to their senses. At one point, I had considered joining the Way Corp. God must have told me not to do that. I am so glad I listened.
You know the old saying, what doesn't kill you will only make you stronger. Amen to that!
Edited by Modgellan Removed a couple of phrases related to current politics, which we avoid here at GSC.
Jumping back to 1976, does anyone remember someone teaching about a constitutional crisis, or something like that, where we were supposedly in danger of losing our democracy?
Yeah, I remember that well…my wife and I met as WOWs in 1976 in Washington DC…yeah the bull$hit conspiracy hype was that us WOWs saved our country from going under …man were we full-o-$hit! That’s what we became after buying into wierwille’s bull$hit…unfortunately we kept buying into it…so my wife and I went into the Way Corps program a few years after WOW…but left in ’86 when exceedingly abundantly above all nonsense broke loose.
Anyone else remember not being able to use your own shampoo, body wash or soap at the Rock of Ages? The showers were prefilled with Shaklee’s Basic H. Essentially a natural HOUSEHOLD cleaner. The natural part didn’t bother me. It was just the fact I was washing and shampooing wi FLOOR CLEANER. I have sensitive skin and was surprised I didn’t break out. I washed half the time at the troughs
Anyone else remember not being able to use your own shampoo, body wash or soap at the Rock of Ages? The showers were prefilled with Shaklee’s Basic H. Essentially a natural HOUSEHOLD cleaner. The natural part didn’t bother me. It was just the fact I was washing and shampooing wi FLOOR CLEANER. I have sensitive skin and was surprised I didn’t break out. I washed half the time at the troughs
It’s been 36 years since my last ROA - so I can’t recall that detail. However, I don’t doubt that because in ‘77 a Twig Coordinator from a nearby town invited himself to our Twig with easel stand and charts and do a hard sell about joining Shaklee…one quote of his I still remember: “this program is so of God.” So it’s possible there were other TWI-folks tapped into the warm market i.e., sell product to HQ, ROA, etc.
oh yeah - I remember another odd thing you can do with Basic H - add one or two drops to the water while cooking spaghetti and it won't stick together...we never bought into any Shaklee stuff
It’s been 36 years since my last ROA - so I can’t recall that detail. However, I don’t doubt that because in ‘77 a Twig Coordinator from a nearby town invited himself to our Twig with easel stand and charts and do a hard sell about joining Shaklee…one quote of his I still remember: “this program is so of God.” So it’s possible there were other TWI-folks tapped into the warm market i.e., sell product to HQ, ROA, etc.
What is it with TWI and multi level marketing (MLM)? I mean TWI is a MLM scheme all on it's own...but when I was around TWI there was alway Shaklee, Mary Kay, and of course Mona Vie...to be clear there were many others too..but those are the first that come to mind. Do birds of a feather just flock together? Is the TWI lifestyle so poor after working menial jobs and giving 15% of your meager income that you need to supplement? Mona Vie was so of God too...Mona Vie ran through HQ like a wild fire until Rosie stepped in and shut it all down...anywho.
What is it with TWI and multi level marketing (MLM)? I mean TWI is a MLM scheme all on it's own...but when I was around TWI there was alway Shaklee, Mary Kay, and of course Mona Vie...to be clear there were many others too..but those are the first that come to mind. Do birds of a feather just flock together? Is the TWI lifestyle so poor after working menial jobs and giving 15% of your meager income that you need to supplement? Mona Vie was so of God too...Mona Vie ran through HQ like a wild fire until Rosie stepped in and shut it all down...anywho.
TWI is fertile ground for MLM exploitation. As you point out, TWI is a form of MLM. There are so many parallels. An unsound, dull mind, a mind that hasn't been taught how (H-O-W) to inquire, how to learn, is ripe for religious and MLM cons. A naïve desire to beleeve self-referntial authorities is all that's required. Thank God this insanity need not persist.
TWI is fertile ground for MLM exploitation. As you point out, TWI is a form of MLM. There are so many parallels. An unsound, dull mind, a mind that hasn't been taught how (H-O-W) to inquire, how to learn, is ripe for religious and MLM cons. A naïve desire to beleeve self-referntial authorities is all that's required. Thank God this insanity need not persist.
What is it with TWI and multi level marketing (MLM)? I mean TWI is a MLM scheme all on it's own...but when I was around TWI there was alway Shaklee, Mary Kay, and of course Mona Vie...to be clear there were many others too..but those are the first that come to mind. Do birds of a feather just flock together? Is the TWI lifestyle so poor after working menial jobs and giving 15% of your meager income that you need to supplement? Mona Vie was so of God too...Mona Vie ran through HQ like a wild fire until Rosie stepped in and shut it all down...anywho.
This reminds me... My aunt and cousins were in Amway. They had a statement of beliefs or core principles that would resonate with any Christian: #1 God First. Sound familiar?
Who would argue with this? Of course, God first!! What else?! But it is framed as some groundbreaking, revolutionary maxim. And a "business" that proclaims this, well, there just aren't enough cups for the koolaid in this country!
Victor didn't just steal from other ministers and theologians. He didn't just steal from L. Ron Hubbard. He stole from MLM schemes like Amway.
Edited by Nathan_Jr The Business, the Business, and nothing but the Business!!!
What is it with TWI and multi level marketing (MLM)? I mean TWI is a MLM scheme all on it's own...but when I was around TWI there was alway Shaklee, Mary Kay, and of course Mona Vie...to be clear there were many others too..but those are the first that come to mind. Do birds of a feather just flock together? Is the TWI lifestyle so poor after working menial jobs and giving 15% of your meager income that you need to supplement? Mona Vie was so of God too...Mona Vie ran through HQ like a wild fire until Rosie stepped in and shut it all down...anywho.
2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:
TWI is fertile ground for MLM exploitation. As you point out, TWI is a form of MLM. There are so many parallels. An unsound, dull mind, a mind that hasn't been taught how (H-O-W) to inquire, how to learn, is ripe for religious and MLM cons. A naïve desire to beleeve self-referntial authorities is all that's required. Thank God this insanity need not persist.
1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:
This reminds me... My aunt and cousins were in Amway. They had a statement of beliefs or core principles that would resonate with any Christian: #1 God First. Sound familiar?
Who would argue with this? Of course, God first!! What else?! But it is framed as some groundbreaking, revolutionary maxim. And a "business" that proclaims this, well, there just aren't enough cups for the koolaid in this country!
Victor didn't just steal from other ministers and theologians. He didn't just steal from L. Ron Hubbard. He stole from MLM schemes like Amway.
Yeah – I agree – fertile ground!
Fast forward to ’82, I’m running a Twig in another state and one day another Twig Coordinator in our branch talks to me about getting into A.L. Williams. He knew I hated sales but kept bugging me it was not like regular sales because I’d be soft selling to a warm market i.e., everyone I already knew like family, friends, work associates and of course TWI-followers…but nope – I didn’t get into that one either.
Here’s a few details from a quick internet looksee:
A.L. Williams sold term life insurances;…After a series of events leading up to the change, A.L. Williams changed its name to Primerica in 1991.During the 2008 and following financial crisis years, the company underwent a loss and change; but the motivated Founder and coach, Art Williams, is back cheering the Primerica team on.As described on the Primerica Wikipedia page, the company uses a hybrid model of direct selling, franchising, and distribution…
…According to their Earnings Disclosure, they paid out $509,227,149 to its sales force—averaging $5,513 per licensed representatives, for 2012. That’s the latest earning disclosure I found on their page.That’s not a lot.But as with most MLMs, there are several very successful people in the organization, but the majority not earning much at all…
…This company is not a get rich quick scheme and Art Williams will quickly and proudly let you know that. But, even If you don’t get involved with the company for the business opportunity, you should still definitely listen to some of the speeches and motivational talks Art has to offer.His information is fire for getting motivated for any endeavor.The principals he mentioned are a solid foundation you could apply to any opportunity you chose to pursue.
The business opportunity information on the site was scarce, mostly focusing on affiliate testimonials.But, I will say this:I like the concept of Primerica.I like the idea of creating a business that sells and provides information as part of its product line, that can truly help people.It seems like it would be a great ice-breaker of an opening.Telling people about options that could help with their financial situation, I think, would be a welcomed change.
Even though, I don’t see how one could make a living on the average salary of $5,513 mentioned above; I do see how the information and processes could be valuable in other ways.You could accept the fact that this business opportunity might be financially limited at first, with the possibility of consistent growth in the future.Then, look at other opportunities that might be related.
While we’re on the subject of MLMs – there’s this bit of info:
What is the difference between Pyramid Scheme and Multi-Level Marketing Company?
Multi-level marketing companies (MLMs) are legitimate businesses with the goal of moving products to consumers. If new buyers aren’t already members of the MLM company, you can sign them up and earn a percentage of the income they generate.
On the other hand, in a pyramid scheme, the income usually comes from recruiting new members who must pay an entrance fee or startup cost, which is used to recruit new members.
At MLMs, there are benefits to recruiting new members, such as earning a commission of their sales. However, the main goal of the organization is still to move product.
Some have suggested that all MLMs are pyramid schemes because of the structure and because most distributors end up buying the product rather than consumers. But the FTC has ruled that MLMs are legal business structures.
And according to this website the top 10 Pyramid Schemes of All Time are:
Fast forward to ’82, I’m running a Twig in another state and one day another Twig Coordinator in our branch talks to me about getting into A.L. Williams. He knew I hated sales but kept bugging me it was not like regular sales because I’d be soft selling to a warm market i.e., everyone I already knew like family, friends, work associates and of course TWI-followers…but nope – I didn’t get into that one either.
Here’s a few details from a quick internet looksee:
A.L. Williams sold term life insurances;…After a series of events leading up to the change, A.L. Williams changed its name to Primerica in 1991.During the 2008 and following financial crisis years, the company underwent a loss and change; but the motivated Founder and coach, Art Williams, is back cheering the Primerica team on.As described on the Primerica Wikipedia page, the company uses a hybrid model of direct selling, franchising, and distribution…
…According to their Earnings Disclosure, they paid out $509,227,149 to its sales force—averaging $5,513 per licensed representatives, for 2012. That’s the latest earning disclosure I found on their page.That’s not a lot.But as with most MLMs, there are several very successful people in the organization, but the majority not earning much at all…
…This company is not a get rich quick scheme and Art Williams will quickly and proudly let you know that. But, even If you don’t get involved with the company for the business opportunity, you should still definitely listen to some of the speeches and motivational talks Art has to offer.His information is fire for getting motivated for any endeavor.The principals he mentioned are a solid foundation you could apply to any opportunity you chose to pursue.
The business opportunity information on the site was scarce, mostly focusing on affiliate testimonials.But, I will say this:I like the concept of Primerica.I like the idea of creating a business that sells and provides information as part of its product line, that can truly help people.It seems like it would be a great ice-breaker of an opening.Telling people about options that could help with their financial situation, I think, would be a welcomed change.
Even though, I don’t see how one could make a living on the average salary of $5,513 mentioned above; I do see how the information and processes could be valuable in other ways.You could accept the fact that this business opportunity might be financially limited at first, with the possibility of consistent growth in the future.Then, look at other opportunities that might be related.
While we’re on the subject of MLMs – there’s this bit of info:
What is the difference between Pyramid Scheme and Multi-Level Marketing Company?
Multi-level marketing companies (MLMs) are legitimate businesses with the goal of moving products to consumers. If new buyers aren’t already members of the MLM company, you can sign them up and earn a percentage of the income they generate.
On the other hand, in a pyramid scheme, the income usually comes from recruiting new members who must pay an entrance fee or startup cost, which is used to recruit new members.
At MLMs, there are benefits to recruiting new members, such as earning a commission of their sales. However, the main goal of the organization is still to move product.
Some have suggested that all MLMs are pyramid schemes because of the structure and because most distributors end up buying the product rather than consumers. But the FTC has ruled that MLMs are legal business structures.
And according to this website the top 10 Pyramid Schemes of All Time are:
Betsy DeVos was the U.S. Secretary of Education under Trump. Her father-in-law is Richard M. DeVos, founder of Amway, top of the pyramid.
MLMs claim to be fundamentally about selling product, but their own members in particular end up being the only ones buying. There is usually a sign-up starter package that costs $$$ (Foundational Class). Then the pressure is on to sign up new members and sell product. If you can't sign or sell, too bad, you've got a quota to meet, so you better do something.... well, you end up buying the product yourself (advanced classes, collaterals, magazines, abs) to remain active in good standing.
Painfully forced smiles on financially destroyed beleeevers in the fantasy all the way down.... sound familiar?
I went to the ROA in '87 and '88. To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community. Nothing else has been close.
I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about. For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment. I was sky high.
A friend came back from WOW totally blown away by God. My brother went to ROA that second year and he was lit up.
I later brought my nephew in 1993 and all the fizz was gone. The immaculate grounds were no longer immaculate. It just sucked.
I didn't go WOW. I didn't go Corps. TWI was a major stepping stone for me leaving college atheism and licentiousness and eventually linking arms with mainstream Christianity. Sorry for all who were hurt. Really sorry for anyone still harboring bitterness.
I didn't go WOW. I didn't go Corps. TWI was a major stepping stone for me leaving college atheism and licentiousness and eventually linking arms with mainstream Christianity.
Glad you found a good way out and you sound quite happy in your life.
Anyone is welcome to share things TWI and your later input is very welcome. 1993 might have been my last RoA. (I'm unclear on dates).
I went to the ROA in '87 and '88. To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community. Nothing else has been close.
I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about. For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment. I was sky high.
A friend came back from WOW totally blown away by God. My brother went to ROA that second year and he was lit up.
I later brought my nephew in 1993 and all the fizz was gone. The immaculate grounds were no longer immaculate. It just sucked.
I didn't go WOW. I didn't go Corps. TWI was a major stepping stone for me leaving college atheism and licentiousness and eventually linking arms with mainstream Christianity. Sorry for all who were hurt. Really sorry for anyone still harboring bitterness.
Thanks, JoyfulSoul, for reminding me that, despite all the madness, there were some good times, too.
I went to the ROA in '87 and '88. To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community. Nothing else has been close.
I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about. For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment. I was sky high.
A friend came back from WOW totally blown away by God. My brother went to ROA that second year and he was lit up.
I later brought my nephew in 1993 and all the fizz was gone. The immaculate grounds were no longer immaculate. It just sucked.
I didn't go WOW. I didn't go Corps. TWI was a major stepping stone for me leaving college atheism and licentiousness and eventually linking arms with mainstream Christianity. Sorry for all who were hurt. Really sorry for anyone still harboring bitterness.
Hiyas! I think the common demoniator for a lot of people is scripture does not return void but accomplishes what God sends it to accomplish. While, I did have some outright rotten experiences towards the end of my time in TWI, I did walk away with a lot of good experiences and overall as a better person. TWI gets no accoloades for such things as it happened rather in spite of them. But thats the cool thing with Christ. He draws us ever closer to God if we are willing to follow and constantly builds us up out of the sin nature into the new nature. Thanks for posting and hope to see you around. Peace!
I went to the ROA in '87 and '88. To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community. Nothing else has been close.
I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about. For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment. I was sky high.
A friend came back from WOW totally blown away by God. My brother went to ROA that second year and he was lit up.
I later brought my nephew in 1993 and all the fizz was gone. The immaculate grounds were no longer immaculate. It just sucked.
I didn't go WOW. I didn't go Corps. TWI was a major stepping stone for me leaving college atheism and licentiousness and eventually linking arms with mainstream Christianity. Sorry for all who were hurt. Really sorry for anyone still harboring bitterness.
Welcome to Grease Spot, Joyful Soul!
Your post brings up the difficulty in sorting out the variety of experiences in a duplicitous organization like The Way International.
Jesus Christ warned us about ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing Matthew 7 and Peter warned us about false teachers arising within the church II Peter 2
A couple of takeaways from Matthew and Peter: we are to discern wolves and false teachers by their fruit (the product of their labor) and by their deviation and perversion from sound doctrine and practice.
Since you never went WOW or corps you probably only got to witness the ‘lighter side’ of TWI. It’s in the programs that one experiences TWI’s dark underbelly of indoctrination, manipulation, exploitation and abuse.
I think what’s complicated in wading through it all to figure out what’s wrong is the simple fact that it’s supposedly based on something as innocuous as the Bible. It’s a common question here on Grease Spot - “did you throw out the baby with the bath water?” Of course everyone has an opinion on what’s the baby and what’s the bath water.
I will say that PFAL did whet my appetite to enjoy hobbies like systematic and biblical theology and philosophy of religion. I’ve been WOW, corps and 12 years in TWI - but it took the ministry wide crisis in 1986 to get me to do some soul searching, acknowledge some red flags I ignored and then step back and see that TWI made some major divergence from the Bible in doctrine and practice. What’s strange to consider that when it comes to harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cults it’s more about their methods than their seemingly innocent teachings.
I went to the ROA in '87 and '88. To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community. Nothing else has been close.
I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about. For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment. I was sky high.
A friend came back from WOW totally blown away by God. My brother went to ROA that second year and he was lit up.
I later brought my nephew in 1993 and all the fizz was gone. The immaculate grounds were no longer immaculate. It just sucked.
I didn't go WOW. I didn't go Corps. TWI was a major stepping stone for me leaving college atheism and licentiousness and eventually linking arms with mainstream Christianity. Sorry for all who were hurt. Really sorry for anyone still harboring bitterness.
JoyfulSoul.... welcome to GSC.
When you went to ROA in '87 and '88..... allow me to give you another perspective. The mass exodus in 1986 was spurred by Chris Geer's paper, "The Passing of a Patriarch" (featuring wierwille's leadership of twi) and subsequent excoriating confrontation to the corps household in general. This unfair and biased confrontation spread fear and confusion.... resulting in nearly 80% of corps to exit twi. Thus, the following ROAs in '87 and '88 were significant changes of adaptation and posturing from the trustees. Simply put, those years were aberrations from former ROAs.
The reasons why those two or three years (ROA - '87, '88 and '89) were so loving and uplifting is because Craig, Don, and Howard got off "their high horses" and came down to the level of the followers. They mingled in the crowds and showed their appreciation for our faithfully standing with them. Looking back, I see that self-promotion and hidden agendas were lurking nearby. Had the trustees TRULY CHANGED.... then these changes would have continued in 1993 where you admit that "the fizz was gone." So, the question becomes...."was the fizz REALLY there" or was this subterfuge? I highly contend that it was subterfuge, a stratagem used to deceive and conceal the long agenda. This "long agenda" was to keep followers in twi-servitude and keep the gravy train rolling down the tracks.
Thankfully, you didn't get taken in by this subterfuge. You didn't go WOW or corps and eventually linked arms with mainstream Christianity. You didn't waste 5, 10, or 20 years of your life following in what one might describe as pseudo-Christianity, or worse, a cult.
Some of us were hurt, but I don't come to GSC harboring bitterness. I come to GSC to warn others. There is a vast difference.
I went to the ROA in '87 and '88. To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community. Nothing else has been close.
I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about. For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment. I was sky high.
Adding further..... those who were committed to "the simplicity that is in Christ [II Corinthians 11:3] and not corrupted were the most loving followers in Christ. To this day, I believe that some got involved in twi with the purest motives and hearts. They simply loved to give and serve others believing that God called them to serve. When this involves a community of loving service to others.... it truly is electrifying.
I, too, saw this on occasion.... but most often it is found at the ground level, not in hierarchy circles of elitism.
All the love and attention I received from my fellowship was what attracted me in the first place. The wow’s and others in the group met some very important needs I had at the time. I was in college at the time and all my friends from school had already graduated and moved on with their careers. I was quite lonesome and the fellowship took me in as one of theirs and filled that void.
I went wow the next two years, and midway through the second year, realized TWI wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. But, as my name Stayed Too Long indicates, I hung on to the group far too long.
There is no doubt all the ROA’s were very fulfilling and got the next year going for me.
Question
little_rock
I cannot remember the last year I went to the ROA, it all seems like a prolonged bad dream. Please allow me to meander through some of the memories from various years.
The first year was around 1975. Some new recruits of the W.O.W. program had to sleep on cots in a barn with occasional rats running about. There were showers to use, but there was no hot water, very invigorating in the late fall weather. Dannon Yogurt was plentiful, I remember seeing the trucks there.
Another year, I remember when they were drumming up money to build the W.O.W. Auditorium. At first VP said he didn't want his name on it, but he later caved in and said OK to his name being on it. The Way was asking for volunteers to help build the auditorium. By this time in my involvement, I was rather cool to the idea. Also, the Fountain of Living Waters was being planned and they were asking for donations. I didn't give any money to that effort either. It did not make sense to me with all the needs people have, that we would donate to a fountain that I would only see if I went to New Knoxville, maybe once a year.
Does anyone remember when people chipped in to buy VP a big Harley-Davidson motorcycle? As he was cruising slowly through the crowd, a plethora of professional and amateur photographers were chasing him and taking pictures of him on the motor cycle. Sometimes, I wonder if they were hired to show up. The cameras looked very expensive. Also, there was a quartet that sang a cappella singing songs like "The sons of the Pioneers". I can't remember their name, but when they were on the stage performing, they were very good, but VP couldn't resist stealing the spotlight, so he shuffled up on stage doing his adorable grandpa dance. Of course the crowd just ate it up, because they adored him so. So, right before they got the chorus of the song, VP would shout "SING IT!" and the crowd would go wild. Remember?
Jumping back to 1976, does anyone remember someone teaching about a constitutional crisis, or something like that, where we were supposedly in danger of losing our democracy? A reverend said he prayed to God on a beach to save our country. Apparently, the danger had passed and America survived another day. What was one of the benefits of the PFAL class? Enable you to separate truth from error? Well we don't have to worry about that any more, they stopped the PFAL classes, from what I've heard. And no more Rock of Ages? Amazing. No more Camp Gunnison? No more Way College of Emporia? I guess some people came to their senses. At one point, I had considered joining the Way Corp. God must have told me not to do that. I am so glad I listened.
You know the old saying, what doesn't kill you will only make you stronger. Amen to that!
Edited by ModgellanRemoved a couple of phrases related to current politics, which we avoid here at GSC.
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WordWolf
Some memories of the ROA can be found on the thread, "Memories of the ROA."
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WordWolf
A lot of memories of twi history can be found on the "Eyewitnesses" threads.
1953-1966 didn't have much info...
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8329-eyewitnessestwi-from-1953-1966your-stories/#comment-198641
1966-1975 had more.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8336-eyewitnessestwi-from-1966-1975your-stories/#comment-198833
1976 was a big year in twi history.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8380-eyewitnessestwi-1976your-stories/#comment-199672
1977-1980 was next.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8472-eyewitnesses1977-to-1980-your-stories/#comment-201347
As was 1981-1984.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8530-eyewitnesses1981-1984your-stories/#comment-202407
1985 was also a big year for twi.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8699-eyewitnessestwi-1985your-stories/#comment-205956
1986-1988 was "the fog years."
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8732-eyewitnessestwi-1986-1988your-stories/#comment-206746
1989-1992 covered the line in the sand, the big exodus, and what came later.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8818-eyewitnesses-1989-1992-your-stories/#comment-209054
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waysider
Rock of Ages: An exercise in delusion
Chapter one
"It was a dark and dreary night."
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T-Bone
Yeah, I remember that well…my wife and I met as WOWs in 1976 in Washington DC…yeah the bull$hit conspiracy hype was that us WOWs saved our country from going under
…man were we full-o-$hit! That’s what we became after buying into wierwille’s bull$hit…unfortunately we kept buying into it…so my wife and I went into the Way Corps program a few years after WOW…but left in ’86 when exceedingly abundantly above all nonsense broke loose.
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Rocky
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LoriAlberts
Anyone else remember not being able to use your own shampoo, body wash or soap at the Rock of Ages? The showers were prefilled with Shaklee’s Basic H. Essentially a natural HOUSEHOLD cleaner. The natural part didn’t bother me. It was just the fact I was washing and shampooing wi FLOOR CLEANER. I have sensitive skin and was surprised I didn’t break out. I washed half the time at the troughs
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T-Bone
It’s been 36 years since my last ROA - so I can’t recall that detail. However, I don’t doubt that because in ‘77 a Twig Coordinator from a nearby town invited himself to our Twig with easel stand and charts and do a hard sell about joining Shaklee…one quote of his I still remember: “this program is so of God.” So it’s possible there were other TWI-folks tapped into the warm market i.e., sell product to HQ, ROA, etc.
oh yeah - I remember another odd thing you can do with Basic H - add one or two drops to the water while cooking spaghetti and it won't stick together...we never bought into any Shaklee stuff
Edited by T-Boneaddition
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OldSkool
What is it with TWI and multi level marketing (MLM)? I mean TWI is a MLM scheme all on it's own...but when I was around TWI there was alway Shaklee, Mary Kay, and of course Mona Vie...to be clear there were many others too..but those are the first that come to mind. Do birds of a feather just flock together? Is the TWI lifestyle so poor after working menial jobs and giving 15% of your meager income that you need to supplement? Mona Vie was so of God too...Mona Vie ran through HQ like a wild fire until Rosie stepped in and shut it all down...anywho.
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Nathan_Jr
TWI is fertile ground for MLM exploitation. As you point out, TWI is a form of MLM. There are so many parallels. An unsound, dull mind, a mind that hasn't been taught how (H-O-W) to inquire, how to learn, is ripe for religious and MLM cons. A naïve desire to beleeve self-referntial authorities is all that's required. Thank God this insanity need not persist.
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OldSkool
Thanks!
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Nathan_Jr
This reminds me... My aunt and cousins were in Amway. They had a statement of beliefs or core principles that would resonate with any Christian: #1 God First. Sound familiar?
Who would argue with this? Of course, God first!! What else?! But it is framed as some groundbreaking, revolutionary maxim. And a "business" that proclaims this, well, there just aren't enough cups for the koolaid in this country!
Victor didn't just steal from other ministers and theologians. He didn't just steal from L. Ron Hubbard. He stole from MLM schemes like Amway.
Edited by Nathan_JrThe Business, the Business, and nothing but the Business!!!
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waysider
Too much business is wrong for you.
Too many deals in your day.
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Rocky
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Nathan_Jr
I depend on you for these types of obscure, yet glove-fittingly relevant, musical references.
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T-Bone
Yeah – I agree – fertile ground!
Fast forward to ’82, I’m running a Twig in another state and one day another Twig Coordinator in our branch talks to me about getting into A.L. Williams. He knew I hated sales but kept bugging me it was not like regular sales because I’d be soft selling to a warm market i.e., everyone I already knew like family, friends, work associates and of course TWI-followers…but nope – I didn’t get into that one either.
Here’s a few details from a quick internet looksee:
A.L. Williams sold term life insurances; …After a series of events leading up to the change, A.L. Williams changed its name to Primerica in 1991. During the 2008 and following financial crisis years, the company underwent a loss and change; but the motivated Founder and coach, Art Williams, is back cheering the Primerica team on. As described on the Primerica Wikipedia page, the company uses a hybrid model of direct selling, franchising, and distribution…
…According to their Earnings Disclosure, they paid out $509,227,149 to its sales force—averaging $5,513 per licensed representatives, for 2012. That’s the latest earning disclosure I found on their page. That’s not a lot. But as with most MLMs, there are several very successful people in the organization, but the majority not earning much at all…
… This company is not a get rich quick scheme and Art Williams will quickly and proudly let you know that. But, even If you don’t get involved with the company for the business opportunity, you should still definitely listen to some of the speeches and motivational talks Art has to offer. His information is fire for getting motivated for any endeavor. The principals he mentioned are a solid foundation you could apply to any opportunity you chose to pursue.
The business opportunity information on the site was scarce, mostly focusing on affiliate testimonials. But, I will say this: I like the concept of Primerica. I like the idea of creating a business that sells and provides information as part of its product line, that can truly help people. It seems like it would be a great ice-breaker of an opening. Telling people about options that could help with their financial situation, I think, would be a welcomed change.
Even though, I don’t see how one could make a living on the average salary of $5,513 mentioned above; I do see how the information and processes could be valuable in other ways. You could accept the fact that this business opportunity might be financially limited at first, with the possibility of consistent growth in the future. Then, look at other opportunities that might be related.
From: Its Vicky com: Primerica – is it a scam or opportunity? We Review
~ ~ ~ ~
While we’re on the subject of MLMs – there’s this bit of info:
What is the difference between Pyramid Scheme and Multi-Level Marketing Company?
Multi-level marketing companies (MLMs) are legitimate businesses with the goal of moving products to consumers. If new buyers aren’t already members of the MLM company, you can sign them up and earn a percentage of the income they generate.
On the other hand, in a pyramid scheme, the income usually comes from recruiting new members who must pay an entrance fee or startup cost, which is used to recruit new members.
At MLMs, there are benefits to recruiting new members, such as earning a commission of their sales. However, the main goal of the organization is still to move product.
Some have suggested that all MLMs are pyramid schemes because of the structure and because most distributors end up buying the product rather than consumers. But the FTC has ruled that MLMs are legal business structures.
And according to this website the top 10 Pyramid Schemes of All Time are:
1. Amway
2. Herbalife
3. Nu Skin Enterprises
4. Vemma
5. Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing
6. USANA Health Sciences
7. BurnLounge, Inc.
8. United Sciences of America
9. Business in Motion
10. Mary Kay Consulting
From: Grad Schools com: top ten pyramid schemes
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Nathan_Jr
Amway.
Betsy DeVos was the U.S. Secretary of Education under Trump. Her father-in-law is Richard M. DeVos, founder of Amway, top of the pyramid.
MLMs claim to be fundamentally about selling product, but their own members in particular end up being the only ones buying. There is usually a sign-up starter package that costs $$$ (Foundational Class). Then the pressure is on to sign up new members and sell product. If you can't sign or sell, too bad, you've got a quota to meet, so you better do something.... well, you end up buying the product yourself (advanced classes, collaterals, magazines, abs) to remain active in good standing.
Painfully forced smiles on financially destroyed beleeevers in the fantasy all the way down.... sound familiar?
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JoyfulSoul
This won't be popular...
I went to the ROA in '87 and '88. To this day that's what I think about as loving Christian community. Nothing else has been close.
I hadn't been exposed to all the corruption I later heard about. For a new person it was just the most loving, uplifting environment. I was sky high.
A friend came back from WOW totally blown away by God. My brother went to ROA that second year and he was lit up.
I later brought my nephew in 1993 and all the fizz was gone. The immaculate grounds were no longer immaculate. It just sucked.
I didn't go WOW. I didn't go Corps. TWI was a major stepping stone for me leaving college atheism and licentiousness and eventually linking arms with mainstream Christianity. Sorry for all who were hurt. Really sorry for anyone still harboring bitterness.
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Twinky
Welcome, JoyfulSoul.
Glad you found a good way out and you sound quite happy in your life.
Anyone is welcome to share things TWI and your later input is very welcome. 1993 might have been my last RoA. (I'm unclear on dates).
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waysider
Thanks, JoyfulSoul, for reminding me that, despite all the madness, there were some good times, too.
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OldSkool
Hiyas! I think the common demoniator for a lot of people is scripture does not return void but accomplishes what God sends it to accomplish. While, I did have some outright rotten experiences towards the end of my time in TWI, I did walk away with a lot of good experiences and overall as a better person. TWI gets no accoloades for such things as it happened rather in spite of them. But thats the cool thing with Christ. He draws us ever closer to God if we are willing to follow and constantly builds us up out of the sin nature into the new nature. Thanks for posting and hope to see you around. Peace!
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T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Joyful Soul!
Your post brings up the difficulty in sorting out the variety of experiences in a duplicitous organization like The Way International.
Jesus Christ warned us about ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing Matthew 7 and Peter warned us about false teachers arising within the church II Peter 2
A couple of takeaways from Matthew and Peter: we are to discern wolves and false teachers by their fruit (the product of their labor) and by their deviation and perversion from sound doctrine and practice.
Since you never went WOW or corps you probably only got to witness the ‘lighter side’ of TWI. It’s in the programs that one experiences TWI’s dark underbelly of indoctrination, manipulation, exploitation and abuse.
I think what’s complicated in wading through it all to figure out what’s wrong is the simple fact that it’s supposedly based on something as innocuous as the Bible. It’s a common question here on Grease Spot - “did you throw out the baby with the bath water?” Of course everyone has an opinion on what’s the baby and what’s the bath water.
I will say that PFAL did whet my appetite to enjoy hobbies like systematic and biblical theology and philosophy of religion. I’ve been WOW, corps and 12 years in TWI - but it took the ministry wide crisis in 1986 to get me to do some soul searching, acknowledge some red flags I ignored and then step back and see that TWI made some major divergence from the Bible in doctrine and practice. What’s strange to consider that when it comes to harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cults it’s more about their methods than their seemingly innocent teachings.
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skyrider
JoyfulSoul.... welcome to GSC.
When you went to ROA in '87 and '88..... allow me to give you another perspective. The mass exodus in 1986 was spurred by Chris Geer's paper, "The Passing of a Patriarch" (featuring wierwille's leadership of twi) and subsequent excoriating confrontation to the corps household in general. This unfair and biased confrontation spread fear and confusion.... resulting in nearly 80% of corps to exit twi. Thus, the following ROAs in '87 and '88 were significant changes of adaptation and posturing from the trustees. Simply put, those years were aberrations from former ROAs.
The reasons why those two or three years (ROA - '87, '88 and '89) were so loving and uplifting is because Craig, Don, and Howard got off "their high horses" and came down to the level of the followers. They mingled in the crowds and showed their appreciation for our faithfully standing with them. Looking back, I see that self-promotion and hidden agendas were lurking nearby. Had the trustees TRULY CHANGED.... then these changes would have continued in 1993 where you admit that "the fizz was gone." So, the question becomes...."was the fizz REALLY there" or was this subterfuge? I highly contend that it was subterfuge, a stratagem used to deceive and conceal the long agenda. This "long agenda" was to keep followers in twi-servitude and keep the gravy train rolling down the tracks.
Thankfully, you didn't get taken in by this subterfuge. You didn't go WOW or corps and eventually linked arms with mainstream Christianity. You didn't waste 5, 10, or 20 years of your life following in what one might describe as pseudo-Christianity, or worse, a cult.
Some of us were hurt, but I don't come to GSC harboring bitterness. I come to GSC to warn others. There is a vast difference.
Peace.
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skyrider
Adding further..... those who were committed to "the simplicity that is in Christ [II Corinthians 11:3] and not corrupted were the most loving followers in Christ. To this day, I believe that some got involved in twi with the purest motives and hearts. They simply loved to give and serve others believing that God called them to serve. When this involves a community of loving service to others.... it truly is electrifying.
I, too, saw this on occasion.... but most often it is found at the ground level, not in hierarchy circles of elitism.
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Stayed Too Long
All the love and attention I received from my fellowship was what attracted me in the first place. The wow’s and others in the group met some very important needs I had at the time. I was in college at the time and all my friends from school had already graduated and moved on with their careers. I was quite lonesome and the fellowship took me in as one of theirs and filled that void.
I went wow the next two years, and midway through the second year, realized TWI wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. But, as my name Stayed Too Long indicates, I hung on to the group far too long.
There is no doubt all the ROA’s were very fulfilling and got the next year going for me.
Welcome JoyfulSoul.
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