Part of a problem deal about scripture and what is taught, is that the thinking is chronological, things happening in some kind of order that is studied. If any timetable is removed, a new light can be found in understanding.
Is the bible the word of God? I think of it as scripture, and that is not the only source to find scripture. The word of God to any person does not need a bible or book as a go between, an advocate or like anything between you and God. Luther made a point long ago when studying the scriptures that there is nothing between God and men concerning righteousness.
“You have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, in your hearts, so that you don’t need anyone to teach you what is right. For he teaches you all things, and he is the Truth, and no liar.” (I John 2:27).
* uh-oh
Edited by Nathan_Jr Back to the tailor... must.... make.... them.... FIT
39 You study[c]the Scripturesdiligently because you think that in them you have eternal life.These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,40 yet you refuse to come to meto have life.
Seems like a step is missing in Wayworld.
thanks for the cool link, Bolshevik!
and yeah… perhaps the rut of mental-masturbation that many TWI followers may fall into is part of the problem. Maybe the “intellectual” stimulation of wierwille’s brand of Gnosticism was enough to provide a delusion of instant gratification…so why bother responding to the invitation of Scripture – which amounts to DOING what Jesus Christ bids us to do…which leads to a dynamic life-transforming relationship with Him.
31 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.
33 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5:31 – 40
Jesus’ words in Luke 6 also address the hypocrites and procrastinators:
46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” Luke 6: 46 - 49
My fellowship father-in-da-word, and all those who deferred to him, often asked, "What does God say?"
Of course, this always (without exception) meant: What does the KJV Bible say as it interprets itself according to vic-paul?
God is so limited that he could only speak to the handful of literate men of Iron/Bronze Age Near East? And not only to the elite of that time and place, but only then again (after six others) to a dilettante charlatan of mid 20th century Ohio?
Who or what is this God?
Edited by Nathan_Jr Damn, these gloves are not good for typing
My fellowship father-in-da-word, and all those who deferred to him, often asked, "What does God say?"
Of course, this always (without exception) meant: What does the KJV Bible say as it interprets itself according to vic-paul?
God is so limited that he could only speak to the handful of literate men of Iron/Bronze Age Near East? And not only to the elite of that time and place, but only then again (after six others) to a dilettante charlatan of mid 20th century Ohio?
Who or what is this God?
Dilettante is a word. What does the word mean? I would ask myself. Then I'd look it up. Then I'd use it in another context as if I'd been using it since the first century.
Yes this God of the Victorian Corn had little time for us simple folk. Sitting here, SITing, wondering why we need three or force levels of mediators to get to a mediator, who is absent. Seated at the right hand of the being too busy to explain anything in English.
How does a mediator mediate when he doesn't know anyone?
Gawd left the Word. But it hasn't been known so he left a Class.
He left written instructions. Nobody understood them right so he sent a Class to instrutct on the instructions.
It's a McDonald's ice cream machine, always busted. Which by the way, was an idea Ray Kroc stole from VPW.
What does the word mean? I would ask myself. Then I'd look it up.
I was 'taught" that the Bible is a dictionary. Literally. A Greek and Hebrew dictionary, precisely. With a straight, smiling face the "teacher" "taught" this. He was a dilettante, also.
I was 'taught" that the Bible is a dictionary. Literally. A Greek and Hebrew dictionary, precisely. With a straight, smiling face the "teacher" "taught" this. He was a dilettante, also.
Yes, I think this is what you are getting at when discussing deference to authority.
Only the authority here is dead. A lifeless object made of paper and ink.
The answer must be in there so if I can't find it can't be that it isn't there.
Also I think in deference to authority. . . . If deference is the right term . . . Trust might be involved
Yes, I think this is what you are getting at when discussing deference to authority.
Only the authority here is dead. A lifeless object made of paper and ink.
The answer must be in there so if I can't find it can't be that it isn't there.
Also I think in deference to authority. . . . If deference is the right term . . . Trust might be involved
I just think we need to always pay attention to the claims of authority. Trust, yes, but only as far as it can be verified. Who is the authority and why is he called that? Says who? So what? Oh, he says so of himself by himself? So what? The music coordinator says so? Are you f#cking kidding me? He calls himself Reverend? He calls himself Doctor? Yogi? Guru? He wrote a book? He has a class? Good for him. Bless his little heart.
I need an automotive authority when my car needs service. I need a medical authority if I'm having surgery. And so on...
But for matters of the Spirit, of God, of Life, Truth, Love, of that which is eternal (the Word?), there can be no authority. One must find out for one's self. Dogmatic doctrines don't even come close to any of this in my experience. I am no authority. Please do not take my word for it..
It's so easy to find someone who knows, the authority.... (hint) he's the one with the right doxy.... no, not that one.... the other..... yeah, that one.
I know next to nothing. And I embrace this not knowing.
I just think we need to always pay attention to the claims of authority. Trust, yes, but only as far as it can be verified. Who is the authority and why is he called that? Says who? So what? Oh, he says so of himself by himself? So what? The music coordinator says so? Are you f#cking kidding me? He calls himself Reverend? He calls himself Doctor? Yogi? Guru? He wrote a book? He has a class? Good for him. Bless his little heart.
I need an automotive authority when my car needs service. I need a medical authority if I'm having surgery. And so on...
But for matters of the Spirit, of God, of Life, Truth, Love, of that which is eternal (the Word?), there can be no authority. One must find out for one's self. Dogmatic doctrines don't even come close to any of this in my experience. I am no authority. Please do not take my word for it..
It's so easy to find someone who knows, the authority.... (hint) he's the one with the right doxy.... no, not that one.... the other..... yeah, that one.
I know next to nothing. And I embrace this not knowing.
I'm sure you're an authority to someone in some capacity. I'm sure you know something. What would decisions be based on?
Isn't the use of the Bible in The Way a transfer of authority from correct to incorrect?
Part of a problem deal about scripture and what is taught, is that the thinking is chronological, things happening in some kind of order that is studied. If any timetable is removed, a new light can be found in understanding.
Is the bible the word of God? I think of it as scripture, and that is not the only source to find scripture. The word of God to any person does not need a bible or book as a go between, an advocate or like anything between you and God. Luther made a point long ago when studying the scriptures that there is nothing between God and men concerning righteousness.
Are you referring to The Way's use of administration's?
I agree if God speaks to an individual that's "the word" specific to them.
Interesting how the manifestations were used as a choke point for that.
The administration teaching is not exclusive to twi, but yeah, set those aside for a moment and consider the scriptures. Without a timeframe consider life as a whole.
Yes, I think this is what you are getting at when discussing deference to authority.
Only the authority here is dead. A lifeless object made of paper and ink.
The answer must be in there so if I can't find it can't be that it isn't there.
Also I think in deference to authority. . . . If deference is the right term . . . Trust might be involved
Authority implies authorship in a way, right? Why grant authority to one ancient book? I can write a book, then I will be the author. I will be an authority and so will the book I authored.
There are some astonishingly beautiful poetry and prose in the Bible. Especially, the KJV. Some truly moving passages that affect me profoundly. I think the Greeks or Romans called this quality the numinous. Scripture and poetry and prose from all over the world has affected me in this very same, knee-buckling way. Same for music and nature and rare moments in time with loved ones.
It seems to me, and I know nothing, that contriving authoritative, dogmatic, systematic theological doctrines from any scripture tips one's hand that he just doesn't get it That he is a dilettante. He is a teacher of how (H-O-W). Those that can't do, teach. (I hate this cliche because it's so often untrue, but in this context it fits like a....)
Authority implies authorship in a way, right? Why grant authority to one ancient book? I can write a book, then I will be the author. I will be an authority and so will the book I authored.
There are some astonishingly beautiful poetry and prose in the Bible. Especially, the KJV. Some truly moving passages that affect me profoundly. I think the Greeks or Romans called this quality the numinous. Scripture and poetry and prose from all over the world has affected me in this very same, knee-buckling way. Same for music and nature and rare moments in time with loved ones.
It seems to me, and I know nothing, that contriving authoritative, dogmatic, systematic theological doctrines from any scripture tips one's hand that he just doesn't get it That he is a dilettante. He is a teacher of how (H-O-W). Those that can't do, teach. (I hate this cliche because it's so often untrue, but in this context it fits like a....)
Yep. . .I think if someone is inspired to write something. . . The hope is someone else reading it shares in the same inspiration . . .is inspired by the writing and appreciates it
Poetry and literature are not commands of the Will.
Where does "the Word of God is The Will of God" even come from? Clearly pulled from someone's rear?
Poetry and literature are not commands of the Will.
This is true.
4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:
Where does "the Word of God is The Will of God" even come from? Clearly pulled from someone's rear?
Not pulled; rather, ejected, projected, spewed.
Victor's God, it seems to me, is very flawed, egotistical, shallow, incompetent. Kinda like victor himself. Victor made God in his own image. God is in the publishing business? God wrote some books a long time ago? The Bible is God, written by God, interpreted by..... well, itself....which is God, the Bible, the Word, the Will? Really?
Bull$hit.
Or maybe I just don't get it. Maybe I just need to get taught more, have all this rubbed into me through repetition until I believe because believing implies obedience.
Just kidding. I strongly recommend each of you exercise prayer for guidance and wisdom as you explore these issues, because in my experience the observations you're making are A. absolutely accurate, and B. part of a progression that can but need not lead to a loss of faith.
I said after the great S.I.T. arguments that one need not abandon Christianity to agree that something was Biblically wrong with how Wierwille taught it and how we practiced it. Some of you agreed with me. Some did not. I'm not aware of anyone having a crisis of faith over it.
Same with the observation that the Bible is not the Word of God. It's just not. It never says it is. It is not even aware of its existence as a collection of documents. Why would it be? No matter how you parse inspiration, you can't seriously believe Paul knew we would be reading his thoughts on slavery 2,000 years after he wrote a the Philemon letter. Scripture? This goes in the same collection as Leviticus? Dude, I wasn't even sober!
Ok, just kidding again.
Once you realize that the Bible is not the revealed Word and Will of God, some things fall into place rather easily. First and foremost, contradictions and errors no longer need to be explained. Whew! What a load off! "Given by inspiration of God" no longer has to mean "God-breathed" in the manner we were taught, but rather in the manner defined right there in the verse: profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.
That's the point of reading scripture. It's not without error. It's not without contradiction. It is for doctrine, of which reproof and correction are subsets.
It is very easy to reach that point in understanding and take it a step further, from the position that it has no authority to it has no inspiration at all. I did not arrive at that conclusion (through that process). Neither should you. My rejection of the authority of Scripture did not lead to atheism. Rather, my atheism led to a rejection of the authority of scripture. I guess the relationship is symbiotic, but bear with me. For me, the progression was not "scripture has no authority, therefore Yahweh does not exist." It was the other way around: "I no longer believe Yahweh exists. As a consequence of this belief, scripture no longer has authority to me."
YOU do NOT need to go down that path.
You can have an entire denomination with a hundreds of millions of followers, let's call it "Catholicism," without believing that the Bible is a perfect book that is error free.
The Bible is not the Word of God, but what is IS depends on where you stand.
Even as I was writing this post I came to an amusing realization: If one were to accept the proposition that Weirwille WAS wrong about what it means for the Bible to be God-breathed, then you could conclude that the PFAL writings are God-breathed without suddenly having to explain dozens of actual errors and contradictions in the canon.
In any event, that the Bible is not what the Bible is talking about when it talks about The Word of God should have been self evident to all of us years ago.
. . . Once you realize that the Bible is not the revealed Word and Will of God, some things fall into place rather easily. First and foremost, contradictions and errors no longer need to be explained. Whew! What a load off! "Given by inspiration of God" no longer has to mean "God-breathed" in the manner we were taught, but rather in the manner defined right there in the verse: profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.
That's the point of reading scripture. It's not without error. It's not without contradiction. It is for doctrine, of which reproof and correction are subsets.
It is very easy to reach that point in understanding and take it a step further, from the position that it has no authority to it has no inspiration at all. I did not arrive at that conclusion (through that process). Neither should you. My rejection of the authority of Scripture did not lead to atheism. Rather, my atheism led to a rejection of the authority of scripture. I guess the relationship is symbiotic, but bear with me. For me, the progression was not "scripture has no authority, therefore Yahweh does not exist." It was the other way around: "I no longer believe Yahweh exists. As a consequence of this belief, scripture no longer has authority to me." . . .
This was mentioned in that video I posted recently . . . getting outside the group to change your viewpoint
This is about seeing vpw's (lowercase) LIE . . . Your switch to atheism allowed you to see another angle. I was trying to grasp what the Trinity was (NOT King Ghidorah).
The Word is The Bible . . . cause the Bible has words . . . this is sensible? The Word is singular. Words are not.
Just kidding. I strongly recommend each of you exercise prayer for guidance and wisdom as you explore these issues, because in my experience the observations you're making are A. absolutely accurate, and B. part of a progression that can but need not lead to a loss of faith.
I said after the great S.I.T. arguments that one need not abandon Christianity to agree that something was Biblically wrong with how Wierwille taught it and how we practiced it. Some of you agreed with me. Some did not. I'm not aware of anyone having a crisis of faith over it.
Same with the observation that the Bible is not the Word of God. It's just not. It never says it is. It is not even aware of its existence as a collection of documents. Why would it be? No matter how you parse inspiration, you can't seriously believe Paul knew we would be reading his thoughts on slavery 2,000 years after he wrote a the Philemon letter. Scripture? This goes in the same collection as Leviticus? Dude, I wasn't even sober!
Ok, just kidding again.
Once you realize that the Bible is not the revealed Word and Will of God, some things fall into place rather easily. First and foremost, contradictions and errors no longer need to be explained. Whew! What a load off! "Given by inspiration of God" no longer has to mean "God-breathed" in the manner we were taught, but rather in the manner defined right there in the verse: profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.
That's the point of reading scripture. It's not without error. It's not without contradiction. It is for doctrine, of which reproof and correction are subsets.
It is very easy to reach that point in understanding and take it a step further, from the position that it has no authority to it has no inspiration at all. I did not arrive at that conclusion (through that process). Neither should you. My rejection of the authority of Scripture did not lead to atheism. Rather, my atheism led to a rejection of the authority of scripture. I guess the relationship is symbiotic, but bear with me. For me, the progression was not "scripture has no authority, therefore Yahweh does not exist." It was the other way around: "I no longer believe Yahweh exists. As a consequence of this belief, scripture no longer has authority to me."
YOU do NOT need to go down that path.
You can have an entire denomination with a hundreds of millions of followers, let's call it "Catholicism," without believing that the Bible is a perfect book that is error free.
The Bible is not the Word of God, but what is IS depends on where you stand.
Thanks, Raf.
The errors and contradictions in the Bible are only problematic for inerrantists. This is something I understood before taking "the class."
I think I've been pretty clear about what inspiration of scripture means to me. But maybe I haven't. Truth is pointed to in the Bible AND outside the Bible in other scripture written by other people at different times. Truth is not confined to one collection of writings from one place in time.
Whatever path I am on is exactly the path I need to go down. I DO need to go down it, whether or not the proselytizer or I like it or want it to be so. I don't know this because of discarded "faith." In fact, without "faith" I couldn't know this or accept it.
Doctrine is of man's whimsy, arbitration and opinion. This is not a problem as long as we pay attention and are aware of the inherent limits. Teachers and teachings can be helpful pointers, but, ultimately, one must find out for oneself, otherwise the path will only be illuminated by someone else... has nothing been learned here?
2 hours ago, Raf said:
Even as I was writing this post I came to an amusing realization: If one were to accept the proposition that Weirwille WAS wrong about what it means for the Bible to be God-breathed, then you could conclude that the PFAL writings are God-breathed without suddenly having to explain dozens of actual errors and contradictions in the canon.
That's a fact. There was (at least some) truth in Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology.
What makes modern day fiction/literature so important is that (or when) a work contains or describes truth.
Agree.
A good story is true and you "just know" it is when you see it. How else to express objectively the subjective?
A good mythology is a groups efforts to explain an internal and shared, reality. An would likely have a lot in common with another groups mythology. . . . Having similar DNA.
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Raf
My plan is working perfectly... Just kidding. I strongly recommend each of you exercise prayer for guidance and wisdom as you explore these issues, because in my experience the observations you'r
T-Bone
Thanks, Raf – great post! The essence of your post should be part of a preface for Grease Spotters to read before posting in doctrinal. For want of a better way to put it – for me atheist
T-Bone
I’m inclined to think the context stresses the importance of the Holy Spirit’s teaching…I also think wierwille-ideology gave intuition a bad name… and in this day and age we also have the convenie
cman
Part of a problem deal about scripture and what is taught, is that the thinking is chronological, things happening in some kind of order that is studied. If any timetable is removed, a new light can be found in understanding.
Is the bible the word of God? I think of it as scripture, and that is not the only source to find scripture. The word of God to any person does not need a bible or book as a go between, an advocate or like anything between you and God. Luther made a point long ago when studying the scriptures that there is nothing between God and men concerning righteousness.
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Nathan_Jr
“You have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, in your hearts, so that you don’t need anyone to teach you what is right. For he teaches you all things, and he is the Truth, and no liar.” (I John 2:27).
* uh-oh
Edited by Nathan_JrBack to the tailor... must.... make.... them.... FIT
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T-Bone
thanks for the cool link, Bolshevik!
and yeah… perhaps the rut of mental-masturbation that many TWI followers may fall into is part of the problem. Maybe the “intellectual” stimulation of wierwille’s brand of Gnosticism was enough to provide a delusion of instant gratification…so why bother responding to the invitation of Scripture – which amounts to DOING what Jesus Christ bids us to do…which leads to a dynamic life-transforming relationship with Him.
31 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.
33 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
John 5:31 – 40
Jesus’ words in Luke 6 also address the hypocrites and procrastinators:
46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
Luke 6: 46 - 49
the missing step in TWI-world is WALKING the talk
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Nathan_Jr
That's a good little article. From Lagos of all places - not far from the wierwille-worshipping sodomites in Cameroon.
If the Word was in the beginning, then obviously the Word can't be the Bible. So, what was in the beginning? What does the Bible say?
Genesis 1:3
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
To me the Word is ineffable. I don't know for certain what the Word is, but I'm pretty sure what it is NOT: The Word is NOT the words.
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Nathan_Jr
My fellowship father-in-da-word, and all those who deferred to him, often asked, "What does God say?"
Of course, this always (without exception) meant: What does the KJV Bible say as it interprets itself according to vic-paul?
God is so limited that he could only speak to the handful of literate men of Iron/Bronze Age Near East? And not only to the elite of that time and place, but only then again (after six others) to a dilettante charlatan of mid 20th century Ohio?
Who or what is this God?
Edited by Nathan_JrDamn, these gloves are not good for typing
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Bolshevik
Dilettante is a word. What does the word mean? I would ask myself. Then I'd look it up. Then I'd use it in another context as if I'd been using it since the first century.
Yes this God of the Victorian Corn had little time for us simple folk. Sitting here, SITing, wondering why we need three or force levels of mediators to get to a mediator, who is absent. Seated at the right hand of the being too busy to explain anything in English.
How does a mediator mediate when he doesn't know anyone?
Gawd left the Word. But it hasn't been known so he left a Class.
He left written instructions. Nobody understood them right so he sent a Class to instrutct on the instructions.
It's a McDonald's ice cream machine, always busted. Which by the way, was an idea Ray Kroc stole from VPW.
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Nathan_Jr
I was 'taught" that the Bible is a dictionary. Literally. A Greek and Hebrew dictionary, precisely. With a straight, smiling face the "teacher" "taught" this. He was a dilettante, also.
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Bolshevik
Yes, I think this is what you are getting at when discussing deference to authority.
Only the authority here is dead. A lifeless object made of paper and ink.
The answer must be in there so if I can't find it can't be that it isn't there.
Also I think in deference to authority. . . . If deference is the right term . . . Trust might be involved
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Nathan_Jr
I just think we need to always pay attention to the claims of authority. Trust, yes, but only as far as it can be verified. Who is the authority and why is he called that? Says who? So what? Oh, he says so of himself by himself? So what? The music coordinator says so? Are you f#cking kidding me? He calls himself Reverend? He calls himself Doctor? Yogi? Guru? He wrote a book? He has a class? Good for him. Bless his little heart.
I need an automotive authority when my car needs service. I need a medical authority if I'm having surgery. And so on...
But for matters of the Spirit, of God, of Life, Truth, Love, of that which is eternal (the Word?), there can be no authority. One must find out for one's self. Dogmatic doctrines don't even come close to any of this in my experience. I am no authority. Please do not take my word for it..
It's so easy to find someone who knows, the authority.... (hint) he's the one with the right doxy.... no, not that one.... the other..... yeah, that one.
I know next to nothing. And I embrace this not knowing.
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Rocky
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Bolshevik
I'm sure you're an authority to someone in some capacity. I'm sure you know something. What would decisions be based on?
Isn't the use of the Bible in The Way a transfer of authority from correct to incorrect?
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Bolshevik
Are you referring to The Way's use of administration's?
I agree if God speaks to an individual that's "the word" specific to them.
Interesting how the manifestations were used as a choke point for that.
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cman
The administration teaching is not exclusive to twi, but yeah, set those aside for a moment and consider the scriptures. Without a timeframe consider life as a whole.
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Nathan_Jr
Can you try to rephrase this sentence? I don't understand what you mean.
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Nathan_Jr
Authority implies authorship in a way, right? Why grant authority to one ancient book? I can write a book, then I will be the author. I will be an authority and so will the book I authored.
There are some astonishingly beautiful poetry and prose in the Bible. Especially, the KJV. Some truly moving passages that affect me profoundly. I think the Greeks or Romans called this quality the numinous. Scripture and poetry and prose from all over the world has affected me in this very same, knee-buckling way. Same for music and nature and rare moments in time with loved ones.
It seems to me, and I know nothing, that contriving authoritative, dogmatic, systematic theological doctrines from any scripture tips one's hand that he just doesn't get it That he is a dilettante. He is a teacher of how (H-O-W). Those that can't do, teach. (I hate this cliche because it's so often untrue, but in this context it fits like a....)
Edited by Nathan_Jrhand in a glove.
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Bolshevik
A person hands their autonomy, decision-making ability, over to a book (or those representing it)
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Bolshevik
Yep. . .I think if someone is inspired to write something. . . The hope is someone else reading it shares in the same inspiration . . .is inspired by the writing and appreciates it
Poetry and literature are not commands of the Will.
Where does "the Word of God is The Will of God" even come from? Clearly pulled from someone's rear?
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Nathan_Jr
This is true.
Not pulled; rather, ejected, projected, spewed.
Victor's God, it seems to me, is very flawed, egotistical, shallow, incompetent. Kinda like victor himself. Victor made God in his own image. God is in the publishing business? God wrote some books a long time ago? The Bible is God, written by God, interpreted by..... well, itself....which is God, the Bible, the Word, the Will? Really?
Bull$hit.
Or maybe I just don't get it. Maybe I just need to get taught more, have all this rubbed into me through repetition until I believe because believing implies obedience.
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Raf
My plan is working perfectly...
Just kidding. I strongly recommend each of you exercise prayer for guidance and wisdom as you explore these issues, because in my experience the observations you're making are A. absolutely accurate, and B. part of a progression that can but need not lead to a loss of faith.
I said after the great S.I.T. arguments that one need not abandon Christianity to agree that something was Biblically wrong with how Wierwille taught it and how we practiced it. Some of you agreed with me. Some did not. I'm not aware of anyone having a crisis of faith over it.
Same with the observation that the Bible is not the Word of God. It's just not. It never says it is. It is not even aware of its existence as a collection of documents. Why would it be? No matter how you parse inspiration, you can't seriously believe Paul knew we would be reading his thoughts on slavery 2,000 years after he wrote a the Philemon letter. Scripture? This goes in the same collection as Leviticus? Dude, I wasn't even sober!
Ok, just kidding again.
Once you realize that the Bible is not the revealed Word and Will of God, some things fall into place rather easily. First and foremost, contradictions and errors no longer need to be explained. Whew! What a load off! "Given by inspiration of God" no longer has to mean "God-breathed" in the manner we were taught, but rather in the manner defined right there in the verse: profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.
That's the point of reading scripture. It's not without error. It's not without contradiction. It is for doctrine, of which reproof and correction are subsets.
It is very easy to reach that point in understanding and take it a step further, from the position that it has no authority to it has no inspiration at all. I did not arrive at that conclusion (through that process). Neither should you. My rejection of the authority of Scripture did not lead to atheism. Rather, my atheism led to a rejection of the authority of scripture. I guess the relationship is symbiotic, but bear with me. For me, the progression was not "scripture has no authority, therefore Yahweh does not exist." It was the other way around: "I no longer believe Yahweh exists. As a consequence of this belief, scripture no longer has authority to me."
YOU do NOT need to go down that path.
You can have an entire denomination with a hundreds of millions of followers, let's call it "Catholicism," without believing that the Bible is a perfect book that is error free.
The Bible is not the Word of God, but what is IS depends on where you stand.
Even as I was writing this post I came to an amusing realization: If one were to accept the proposition that Weirwille WAS wrong about what it means for the Bible to be God-breathed, then you could conclude that the PFAL writings are God-breathed without suddenly having to explain dozens of actual errors and contradictions in the canon.
In any event, that the Bible is not what the Bible is talking about when it talks about The Word of God should have been self evident to all of us years ago.
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Bolshevik
This was mentioned in that video I posted recently . . . getting outside the group to change your viewpoint
This is about seeing vpw's (lowercase) LIE . . . Your switch to atheism allowed you to see another angle. I was trying to grasp what the Trinity was (NOT King Ghidorah).
The Word is The Bible . . . cause the Bible has words . . . this is sensible? The Word is singular. Words are not.
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Nathan_Jr
Thanks, Raf.
The errors and contradictions in the Bible are only problematic for inerrantists. This is something I understood before taking "the class."
I think I've been pretty clear about what inspiration of scripture means to me. But maybe I haven't. Truth is pointed to in the Bible AND outside the Bible in other scripture written by other people at different times. Truth is not confined to one collection of writings from one place in time.
Whatever path I am on is exactly the path I need to go down. I DO need to go down it, whether or not the proselytizer or I like it or want it to be so. I don't know this because of discarded "faith." In fact, without "faith" I couldn't know this or accept it.
Doctrine is of man's whimsy, arbitration and opinion. This is not a problem as long as we pay attention and are aware of the inherent limits. Teachers and teachings can be helpful pointers, but, ultimately, one must find out for oneself, otherwise the path will only be illuminated by someone else... has nothing been learned here?
Sorry... huh??
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Rocky
That's a fact. There was (at least some) truth in Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology.
What makes modern day fiction/literature so important is that (or when) a work contains or describes truth.
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Nathan_Jr
Sure. You can also see it pointed to in Asian and Persian scripture and poetry.
And, yes, old or ancient writings are not necessarily better, truer or more important because of their age. But the dilettante will disagree.
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Bolshevik
Agree.
A good story is true and you "just know" it is when you see it. How else to express objectively the subjective?
A good mythology is a groups efforts to explain an internal and shared, reality. An would likely have a lot in common with another groups mythology. . . . Having similar DNA.
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