the trinity: asset, or liability?

[johniam]

When the devil tempted Jesus, as recorded in both Matthew chapter 4 and in Luke chapter 4, he offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of this world and the glory of them". He further stated that those things belonged to him and that he could give them to whomever he wanted. If any of that had been false, Jesus would have called his bluff, but it was all true. If the devil never told the truth, then nobody would believe him about anything. He mixes just enough truth to feign plausibility, but, all the while, his intention is to deceive. He was however, free at this time, but that would change.

Now, while Jesus was still finishing the work that his Father gave him to do, he encountered people who willingly, yet unwittingly, functioned as mouth pieces for the devil. These people called him a "sinner". They called him a "deceiver". They said of him, "he is mad (crazy) and hath a devil". They said of him, "he is as one that perverteth the people". In short, the devil, at this time, wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil and deserving of death by crucifixion. That changed as well.

Now, after Jesus had finished the work that his Father gave him to do, he 1) was crucified  2) was raised from the dead  3)walked on the earth for 40 days after he was raised from the dead  4) on one occasion he was seen by 500 people after he was raised from the dead  5) he ascended into heaven  and 6) he poured out God's gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost with the result that ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE received eternal life.

This is ironic, because on the day that the law was given to Moses under the old covenant, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were put to death for worshipping a gold calf, an idol. On the day of Pentecost, at which time the new covenant became official, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were ordained unto eternal life. What about the devil?

He is no longer free. Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180. He looks fickle. What's going on???

As I said, he is no longer free. He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition". It is said of him that he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God" and he will "sit in the temple of God showing himself that HE IS GOD". AHA! The antichrist is going to be a man who SAYS he's God.

All those idiots and fools will believe him, in small part because of the 'lying signs and wonders' he will do, and in much larger part because of the trinity. Many of those people will figure that if God came as a man once, then He could do it again. The trinity promotes the belief that God came as a man once. The trinity is the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. The trinity is a perpetual reminder that..."Haleluia, the antichrist is coming".

In the old testament (Numbers 21) serpents were biting people in Israel and many people died. God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent and lift it up on a pole, so that if any body was bitten by one of these serpents and they looked at the brass serpent on the pole, they would live and not die. Approximately 1000 years later, king Hezekiah broke in pieces the brass serpent that Moses made because some people in Israel were worshipping that brass serpent as an idol. 

God instructed Moses to make the brass serpent, and it saved lives, but God NEVER intended for that serpent to be worshipped as an idol. In John 3:14 Jesus is speaking. He says, "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up". It is very significant that Jesus made a point of directly comparing Himself with that same brass serpent which Moses made. God sent Jesus to save us from our sins, and he has already save many lives for all eternity, but God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.

Once again, the trinity is both the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. It is a perpetual reminder that..."haleluia, the antichrist is coming". No Christian should want anything to do with supporting something like that.

God's love is perpetual. God gave every one the same capacity to make our own choices. God will never force anyone to choose, believe, or do anything. If any still want to believe that a man is God, enjoy it while you can. 

[cman]

as if the devil was something set apart from Jesus at that time, not so me thinks

having this power Jesus was "tempted", seeing what he could do, decided

[T-Bone]

9 hours ago, johniam said:

When the devil tempted Jesus, as recorded in both Matthew chapter 4 and in Luke chapter 4, he offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of this world and the glory of them". He further stated that those things belonged to him and that he could give them to whomever he wanted. If any of that had been false, Jesus would have called his bluff, but it was all true. If the devil never told the truth, then nobody would believe him about anything. He mixes just enough truth to feign plausibility, but, all the while, his intention is to deceive. He was however, free at this time, but that would change.

Now, while Jesus was still finishing the work that his Father gave him to do, he encountered people who willingly, yet unwittingly, functioned as mouth pieces for the devil. These people called him a "sinner". They called him a "deceiver". They said of him, "he is mad (crazy) and hath a devil". They said of him, "he is as one that perverteth the people". In short, the devil, at this time, wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil and deserving of death by crucifixion. That changed as well.

Now, after Jesus had finished the work that his Father gave him to do, he 1) was crucified  2) was raised from the dead  3)walked on the earth for 40 days after he was raised from the dead  4) on one occasion he was seen by 500 people after he was raised from the dead  5) he ascended into heaven  and 6) he poured out God's gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost with the result that ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE received eternal life.

This is ironic, because on the day that the law was given to Moses under the old covenant, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were put to death for worshipping a gold calf, an idol. On the day of Pentecost, at which time the new covenant became official, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were ordained unto eternal life. What about the devil?

He is no longer free. Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180. He looks fickle. What's going on???

As I said, he is no longer free. He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition". It is said of him that he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God" and he will "sit in the temple of God showing himself that HE IS GOD". AHA! The antichrist is going to be a man who SAYS he's God.

All those idiots and fools will believe him, in small part because of the 'lying signs and wonders' he will do, and in much larger part because of the trinity. Many of those people will figure that if God came as a man once, then He could do it again. The trinity promotes the belief that God came as a man once. The trinity is the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. The trinity is a perpetual reminder that..."Haleluia, the antichrist is coming".

In the old testament (Numbers 21) serpents were biting people in Israel and many people died. God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent and lift it up on a pole, so that if any body was bitten by one of these serpents and they looked at the brass serpent on the pole, they would live and not die. Approximately 1000 years later, king Hezekiah broke in pieces the brass serpent that Moses made because some people in Israel were worshipping that brass serpent as an idol. 

God instructed Moses to make the brass serpent, and it saved lives, but God NEVER intended for that serpent to be worshipped as an idol. In John 3:14 Jesus is speaking. He says, "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up". It is very significant that Jesus made a point of directly comparing Himself with that same brass serpent which Moses made. God sent Jesus to save us from our sins, and he has already save many lives for all eternity, but God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.

Once again, the trinity is both the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. It is a perpetual reminder that..."haleluia, the antichrist is coming". No Christian should want anything to do with supporting something like that.

God's love is perpetual. God gave every one the same capacity to make our own choices. God will never force anyone to choose, believe, or do anything. If any still want to believe that a man is God, enjoy it while you can. 

 

This thread belongs in doctrinal forum.

 

But for now, I’ll throw my 2 cents in while it’s hot off the press.

note your words are in bold red

 
1.    “Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180. He looks fickle. What's going on???” This is a logical fallacy. How do you know what his motives were and how do you know what he wanted people to believe? Chapter and verse please.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

2.     “God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.”  chapter and verse please...An idol is an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship…How do you know what God intended?  Colossians 1: 15 – 20    seems to express the opposite of what you say. It speaks of the supremacy of Christ, and note in    Colossians 1:15    it starts off by saying Christ is the image (“eikon” in Greek text) of the invisible God. We get our English word “icon” from that. In computer science icon is a graphic symbol (usually a simple picture) that denotes a program, command, or a data file in a graphical user interface – like when you click on the icon for your browser – that enables you to connect to the Internet. Christ is in effect - God's icon - because Christ represents exactly what God is like . Christ is how we connect to the Father  John 14:6     . Everything we come to know and experience through Jesus Christ deepens our appreciation of the compassion and forgiveness of our heavenly Father     John 14:9 

 

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3.    And let’s take into account WHEN the New Testament documents were written. (see  Dating the Bible    and   chronology of Jesus  ) . Since most of them were written well after Jesus Christ ascended into heaven – we see the huge learning curve of what the disciples thought of Jesus Christ, when comparing the simple narratives of the Gospels and Acts with the more “cerebral” epistles.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

4.    In the Gospels the closest that comes to such big ideas about Christ is in   John 1   (but then again most scholars say it was written between 90 and 110 AD – that is many years after Jesus Christ ascended) and like I said above, time-wise this reflects a very mature development of their faith and understanding of Christ. As a literary device John 1 is a fascinating prologue which serves to give the reader important information from the past that will have bearing on the future in the text that follows. It establishes the setting and introduces the protagonist and themes of the story.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

5.    Referring to Jesus Christ as the Logos is a big deal…even a secular source like Wiki recognizes the divinely profound implication: “The Gospel of John identifies the Christian Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos), and further identifies Jesus Christ as the incarnate Logos.” From :   Wiki - The Logos  .   There is so much information available on the Logos I will decline to get into it here – for those interested in a small sample of what I’ve looked into you can check out my profile,    section # 12 I'll have a double Kool-Aid and make it dirty  - and don’t let the section title throw you – my notes on the Logos is one of the many rebuttals to wierwille’s twisted theology, logical fallacies and slipshod interpretation of Scripture…if you manage to stay awake through my “dissertation-esque”   review of a few scholarly works  zzzzZZZZzzzZZZzzz  I’d be happy to discuss the rich historical and philosophical significance of the Logos...we would have to have some common ground of definitions or concepts of The Trinity  ...we'd probably make more headway than rehashing the same old worn out angry tirades of fluff and absurdity grounded in wierwille-isms – but I warn you if you resort to the same old wooden interpretations / proof texting of wierwille’s – I’ll probably find some excuse to bow out and watch God’s Favorite Idiot on Netflix   

…any PFAL grads reading this – please consider the nifty sleight-of-thought wierwille pulled off in the class – after his screwy redefinition of the Greek word pros in John 1:1 – he said it means “together with yet distinctly independent of”  so far okay even though it’s a really clunky way to convey the idea of actually being in close proximity  which is how it’s defined in Koine Greek.

But then with the ease of a double-talking used car salesman wierwille goes on to say the ONLY WAY Jesus Christ could have been together with yet distinctly independent of God in the beginning was in the foreknowledge of God…   huh? This idea of Jesus Christ was in the mind of God – and yet that idea was distinctly independent of God? Was God manifesting a huge personality split? or are we talking astral projection? just doesn’t make sense…  and again I ask the simple question - can anyone provide the chapter and verse to support the idea that pros in John 1:1 means in the beginning Christ was ONLY IN GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE ?

One theologian said of pros: The preposition John uses here is quite revealing. It is the Greek word pros. It means “to be in company with someone”1 or to be “face-to-face.” It speaks of communion, interaction, fellowship. Remember that this is an eternal fellowship, a timeless relationship. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other.   See  John 1:1 meaning and translation .      

Another perversion that wierwille came up with in light of his misinterpretation of John 1:1 is when he said, “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. Which if one cares to remove the PFAL-filter from their outlook they will realize for all practical purposes what wierwille was really suggesting was that PFAL is the only rule for faith and practice – Jesus Christ is not relevant nor immanent. A great book to get out of the cold clinical book knowledge Christianity of PFAL is  Jesus: Lord & Savior by FF Bruce  . Jesus Christ is alive and well and is very active and present in the world!

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

6.    Concerning the title of this thread “the trinity: asset, or liability?” You need to define your terms. what is that in reference to? An asset is something tangible or intangible and is a resource that is owned or controlled by an individual, a company, a government, or an economic entity for accounting purposes with an expectation to produce positive economic value and benefit in the future. A liability is a business’s financial or service-based debt or obligation payable to another individual or business entity at the end of an accounting period to settle past transactions or events. It is one of the financial responsibilities of a business entity that requires the entity to sacrifice future economic benefits in the form of money, goods, and services.

If we’re to understand you’re talking about the doctrine of the Trinity – that needs to be parsed out as to how YOU define the Trinity and what hermeneutical standards are used to interpret relevant passages. And then it’s debatable as to how valuable or how much of a detriment a book on the subject might be. wierwille’s book JCING is laughable coming from a supposedly research ministry – since in the book he mostly uses proof-texting and mischaracterizes the doctrine of the Trinity…it would be helpful to clarify YOUR concept of the Trinity.

If on the other hand you have a polemic concern with the Trinity, it seems you’ve already attempted to stack the deck in your first post by using logical fallacies and fearmongering instead of logic and Scripture. In that regard – so far, it seems to me you consider acceptance of the Trinity as a liability. Well…you’re entitled to your opinion.

A third alternative is that – laying aside doctrinal arguments - if indeed the Trinity is for real – I would think it’s an asset to the church – not that the church owns or controls the Trinity – but in a sense the Lord is ours and we are His – and I think there’s a lot of value in that with great promise of future benefits.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

7.    Also I don’t buy into the lowbrow arguments like wierwille used – saying “the word Trinity is not mentioned in the Scriptures” is rather narrowminded …and for that matter neither are a lot of other high concept words like theology (the study of the nature of God and religious belief),    hamartiology (the biblical study of sin, it’s origin, the cause and effect, its consequences, repentance/forgiveness/reconciliation dynamic in the Christian life, etc.),    eschatology  (study of the end times), hermeneutics (science and art of the interpretation of Scripture)  , soteriology   (the study of salvation). I call these high concept words because they easily summarize big topics…For me the Trinity is shorthand referring to how God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit work together. I didn’t say they’re identical / one and the same  - nor do I see them portrayed that way in Scripture. So while the word Trinity is not found in Scripture - the concept of the Godhead is - which blends together God's transcendence and immanence...Even in the Old Testament, prophets spoke of the “symmetry” of God. Like in  Isaiah 57:15      “For this is what the high and exalted One says— he who lives forever, whose name is holy: “I live in a high and holy place, but also with the one who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite.”

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

8.    “Once again, the trinity is both the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. It is a perpetual reminder that..."haleluia, the antichrist is coming". No Christian should want anything to do with supporting something like that.”  Seems like there’s a lot of fearmongering and hatemongering behind your statements...Can you walk me through your thinking on this? I don't see the correlation you made here > "the trinity is both the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist" . that sounds awfully harsh and derogative to say about the Trinity. Can you provide chapter and verse to support that?

I mean what Christian doesn’t have some fear or healthy respect and hatred for the antichrist. Your statements do have a certain Unitarian / fundamentalist appeal. But this stuff reminds me of wierwille’s galvanizing / polarizing tactics to manipulate folks to side with him on being anti-Trinity. I’ve heard him say in many open meetings “for someone to believe in the Trinity they’d have to be possessed by a devil spirit.” Holy crap!!! Or rather unholy crap! Whatever happened to challenging someone to cite chapter and verse when they saw something screwball like that?  

I never heard of the Trinity being such a galvanizing issue until I got in TWI. On a practical basis I never understood what the big deal was in wierwille’s anti-Trinity rants. If Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior – that should be the end of it - aren’t we all on the same team, then?  

I think wierwille's anti-Trinity "campaigns" were a gimmick to distinguish himself from mainstream Christianity. Didn’t Jesus say in John 13:35      "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." This blacklisting of Christians who accept the Trinity doesn’t seem to be a very loving thing to do... wierwille’s fearmongering and hatemongering sounds like a playbook from one of the characters in the Harry Potter movies.

Psychologists say gaslighting is a form of manipulation that occurs in abusive relationships – where a bully…abuser…a cult-leader tries to get you to question your judgements and reality. Think about the practical aspects of wierwille’s anti-Trinity rants that would involve real situations and events and how you would interact with another person who may not have exactly the same concept of Jesus Christ as you do. That might be possible if we were living back at the time when Jesus walked the earth, and we were his close disciples. Intangibles like the concept of God, love, loyalty and creativity will probably be unique and different in everyone’s mind…It seems like a lot of followers of fundamentalist groups like TWI prefer having a litmus test on folks who follow in the spirit of Jesus Christ instead of following the letter of the dogma.
 

Edited June 19, 2022 by T-Bone
in the beginning was the editor - and he was together with yet distinctly the same as the poster

[Bolshevik]

7 hours ago, johniam said:

God's love is perpetual. God gave every one the same capacity to make our own choices. God will never force anyone to choose, believe, or do anything. If any still want to believe that a man is God, enjoy it while you can. 

Hi Johniam, 

Maybe reread your paragraph.  You say people have a choice . . . But it sounds like an ultimatum.  You start off with love and end with a threat.  The middle sentence feels like a lie in that context.

I'm just saying, after reading that, who cares what the topic of the thread is?

[Nathan_Jr]

28 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

This thread belongs in doctrinal forum.

Agreed. Can you move it there, T-Bone?

[T-Bone]

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Agreed. Can you move it there, T-Bone?

I can't - that's a moderator's job

[Rocky]

3 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I can't - that's a moderator's job

Did you report the post/thread so a moderator will consider doing so?

[Nathan_Jr]

2 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I can't - that's a moderator's job

Thanks. For some reason I beleeeved you were one of the mods - another problem with beleef. I sent them an email about it hours ago.

[T-Bone]

1 minute ago, Rocky said:

Did you report the post/thread so a moderator will consider doing so?

I just did

[Nathan_Jr]

6 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I can't - that's a moderator's job

 

1 minute ago, Rocky said:

Did you report the post/thread so a moderator will consider doing so?

I did earlier today.

[T-Bone]

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Thanks. For some reason I beleeeved you were one of the mods - another problem with beleef. I sent them an email about it hours ago.

nope - I'm not a moderator - more like a least common denominator

[Nathan_Jr]

5 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

nope - I'm not a moderator - more like a least common denominator

Is there a trinity of moderators? Do they work together as one? Or are they pros - distinctly separate, yet not the same?

Edited June 19, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
Three-fingered-gloves

[T-Bone]

3 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Is there a trinity of moderators? Do they work together as one. Or are they pros - distinctly separate, yet not the same?

Pawtucket is of course the father…I have a tendency to be an a$$hole so I’ll be the son of a bi+ch, I guess mods are the holy ghost in the machine (website server) 

[Rocky]

56 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Is there a trinity of moderators? Do they work together as one? Or are they pros - distinctly separate, yet not the same?

Primarily, modcat5 and modgellan. They carry the heavy load of moderating.

Their qualifications? Primarily their temperament. They've done well through the decades. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Rocky

[waysider]

I'm not a mod, but I did a copy/paste in doctrine. Hope that works.

[T-Bone]

4 minutes ago, waysider said:

I'm not a mod, but I did a copy/paste in doctrine. Hope that works.

That would also work in one of those plagiarism threads in About the Way forum...but don't get too excited it's been done many many many times before... plagiarism that is.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Grade of "A" for your teaching, johniam in the first post of this forum thread. However, God could give you instead a grade of "A+". I do not explain this fully in my biblical teaching book. Instead in one of the chapters that is named "Reconciliation Through Jesus Christ". I explain that Jesus in his earthly life called himself the "Son of Man" much more than he called himself the "Son of God", thus humbly relating himself to common humanity as our loving savior. Yes, calling Jesus Christ God instead of the Son of God, can be considered deception. Yes, followers of Jesus Christ called Jesus the "Son of God" many times in the New Testament. And the word trinity is NEVER used in perhaps any version of the bible. However, the first deception as read in Genesis chapter 3 is perhaps the leading deception among Christians even today as originally spoken by the devil who is figuratively called a serpent. This deception is sometimes spoken today, that people after death will not really die. Instead, some people will go to heaven and be as or with God with most people going to hell with eternal punishment. This is still the number one deception today among Christians and this deception is sometimes even promoted by denominational church leaders. I scripturally cover this deception in two of the chapters of my book that are titled as follows:

“When Will the Dead Be Made Alive Through Jesus Christ?” and

“The Mythology of Hell That Contradicts Scriptures”

Yes, there is death for common humanity, however through Jesus Christ we have the future resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust as read in Acts 24:15. This includes current and future judgement by God and Jesus Christ. I cover judgement in chapter 15 of my book that has the title of “End Times with the Judgement of Humanity Through Jesus Christ”.

This biblical teaching book is named “Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ”.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Mark Sanguinetti

[cman]

The trinity has just as much truth in it as the opposition to it.

[OldSkool]

7 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I never heard of the Trinity being such a galvanizing issue until I got in TWI. On a practical basis I never understood what the big deal was in wierwille’s anti-Trinity rants. If Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior – that should be the end of it - aren’t we all on the same team, then?  

I think wierwille's anti-Trinity "campaigns" were a gimmick to distinguish himself from mainstream Christianity. Didn’t Jesus say in John 13:35      "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." This blacklisting of Christians who accept the Trinity doesn’t seem to be a very loving thing to do... wierwille’s fearmongering and hatemongering sounds like a playbook from one of the characters in the Harry Potter movies.

Psychologists say gaslighting is a form of manipulation that occurs in abusive relationships – where a bully…abuser…a cult-leader tries to get you to question your judgements and reality. Think about the practical aspects of wierwille’s anti-Trinity rants that would involve real situations and events and how you would interact with another person who may not have exactly the same concept of Jesus Christ as you do. That might be possible if we were living back at the time when Jesus walked the earth, and we were his close disciples. Intangibles like the concept of God, love, loyalty and creativity will probably be unique and different in everyone’s mind…It seems like a lot of followers of fundamentalist groups like TWI prefer having a litmus test on folks who follow in the spirit of Jesus Christ instead of following the letter of the dogma.
 

Here ya go. Great post T-Bone. And I think this section about sums it up. TWI and most TWI offshoots are rabid anti-trinity types. Even at the expense of ignoring more glaring issues that affect their churches. With wierwille, most things he harped on can be understood in light of big fat claims in sales parlance. He needed gimmicks and selling points to distinguish himself as some great one. In that department he was successful. Dishonest as hell, but successful.

[Nathan_Jr]

15 hours ago, johniam said:

He mixes just enough truth to feign plausibility, but, all the while his intention is to deceive.

He did a 180. He looks fickle. 

 He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition".

All those idiots and fools will believe him, in small part because of the 'lying signs and wonders' he will do, 

No Christian should want anything to do with supporting something like that.

I don't have a theological dog in this fight.
 

But it's worth it to me to tell you that much of what you wrote describes a man I know who died from unbelief brought on by fatigue. This man was fond of sterling silver bracelets engraved with phony credentials. He and Bill Cosby had much in common.

Anyway.... small world.....

 

[oldiesman]

18 hours ago, johniam said:

When the devil tempted Jesus, as recorded in both Matthew chapter 4 and in Luke chapter 4, he offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of this world and the glory of them". He further stated that those things belonged to him and that he could give them to whomever he wanted. If any of that had been false, Jesus would have called his bluff, but it was all true. If the devil never told the truth, then nobody would believe him about anything. He mixes just enough truth to feign plausibility, but, all the while, his intention is to deceive. He was however, free at this time, but that would change.

Now, while Jesus was still finishing the work that his Father gave him to do, he encountered people who willingly, yet unwittingly, functioned as mouth pieces for the devil. These people called him a "sinner". They called him a "deceiver". They said of him, "he is mad (crazy) and hath a devil". They said of him, "he is as one that perverteth the people". In short, the devil, at this time, wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil and deserving of death by crucifixion. That changed as well.

Now, after Jesus had finished the work that his Father gave him to do, he 1) was crucified  2) was raised from the dead  3)walked on the earth for 40 days after he was raised from the dead  4) on one occasion he was seen by 500 people after he was raised from the dead  5) he ascended into heaven  and 6) he poured out God's gift of holy spirit on the day of Pentecost with the result that ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE received eternal life.

This is ironic, because on the day that the law was given to Moses under the old covenant, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were put to death for worshipping a gold calf, an idol. On the day of Pentecost, at which time the new covenant became official, ABOUT 3000 PEOPLE were ordained unto eternal life. What about the devil?

He is no longer free. Prior to the day of Pentecost, he wanted God's people to believe that Jesus was evil. Since the day of Pentecost, he NOW wants God's people to believe that Jesus is God. Why would he change like that? He did a 180. He looks fickle. What's going on???

As I said, he is no longer free. He now has what amounts to an unpardonable death sentence, and he KNOWS it. He also knows that one day in the future (still future) one of his people will rise up to great power and authority over all the earth. Most Christians call this person 'the antichrist'. Technically, the bible doesn't ever call him 'the' antichrist; the bible says there are many antichrists and this person will just be one of the many. However, the bible Does call him the "man of sin". He is also called the "son of perdition". It is said of him that he will "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God" and he will "sit in the temple of God showing himself that HE IS GOD". AHA! The antichrist is going to be a man who SAYS he's God.

All those idiots and fools will believe him, in small part because of the 'lying signs and wonders' he will do, and in much larger part because of the trinity. Many of those people will figure that if God came as a man once, then He could do it again. The trinity promotes the belief that God came as a man once. The trinity is the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. The trinity is a perpetual reminder that..."Haleluia, the antichrist is coming".

In the old testament (Numbers 21) serpents were biting people in Israel and many people died. God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent and lift it up on a pole, so that if any body was bitten by one of these serpents and they looked at the brass serpent on the pole, they would live and not die. Approximately 1000 years later, king Hezekiah broke in pieces the brass serpent that Moses made because some people in Israel were worshipping that brass serpent as an idol. 

God instructed Moses to make the brass serpent, and it saved lives, but God NEVER intended for that serpent to be worshipped as an idol. In John 3:14 Jesus is speaking. He says, "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up". It is very significant that Jesus made a point of directly comparing Himself with that same brass serpent which Moses made. God sent Jesus to save us from our sins, and he has already save many lives for all eternity, but God NEVER intended for Jesus to be worshipped as an idol.

Once again, the trinity is both the welcoming committee and the public relations machine for the antichrist. It is a perpetual reminder that..."haleluia, the antichrist is coming". No Christian should want anything to do with supporting something like that.

God's love is perpetual. God gave every one the same capacity to make our own choices. God will never force anyone to choose, believe, or do anything. If any still want to believe that a man is God, enjoy it while you can. 

I believe the Trinity doctrine is a paradox.   As VPW once said "nobody can explain the Trinity, you have to accept it by faith."    Isn't that the truth?      I do not believe (as I once believed) that the Trinity is "idolatry" as the way taught.    Jesus is Lord.

[Nathan_Jr]

24 minutes ago, oldiesman said:

I believe the Trinity doctrine is a paradox.   As VPW once said "nobody can explain the Trinity, you have to accept it by faith."    Isn't that the truth?      I do not believe (as I once believed) that the Trinity is "idolatry" as the way taught.    Jesus is Lord.

VPW said that? "Accept it by faith?" The faith OF Jesus Christ? Surely not by the faith IN Jesus Christ? Because faith is something we have; beleeeving is what we do.  Or, did he mean believing faith? Or, by operating the manifestation of faith?

Whatever victor said, it's definitely NOT God-breathed scripture, because it's not interpreting itself. 

[Bolshevik]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

VPW said that? "Accept it by faith?" The faith OF Jesus Christ? Surely not by the faith IN Jesus Christ? Because faith is something we have; beleeeving is what we do.  Or, did he mean believing faith? Or, by operating the manifestation of faith?

Whatever victor said, it's definitely NOT God-breathed scripture, because it's not interpreting itself. 

I tend to think if you can't understand it or it's too big and mysterious to comprehend, you can't control it.  VPW, aware or not, needed something simpler.

Others have repeated The Word (VPW) takes the place of the absent Christ.

I remember being shocked in my mid twenties learning that the Christians think they have some sort of "relationship" with Jesus.  I think there's a reason VPW put the Jesus archetype into retirement at the right hand of God 

Others have said VPW needed to attack the Trinity to distinguish himself and draw battle lines.  I think he also needed to position himself as the center of attention, and a Trinity makes it more difficult.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Bolshevik
"Also" in the bible, by some friend of VPW

[T-Bone]

38 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I tend to think if you can't understand it or it's too big and mysterious to comprehend, you can't control it.  VPW, aware or not, needed something simpler.

Others have repeated The Word (VPW) takes the place of the absent Christ.

I remember being shocked in my mid twenties learning that the Christians think they have some sort of "relationship" with Jesus.  I think there's a reason VPW put the Jesus archetype into retirement at the right hand of God 

Others have said VPW needed to attack the Trinity to distinguish himself and draw battle lines.  I think he also needed to position himself as the center of attention, and a Trinity makes it more difficult.

Great points, Bolshevik !

Since having a supposedly superior knowledge   was such a big deal to someone with gnostic tendencies like wierwille – I think he would have probably been very inclined to “demystify” God. I read a great book a few years ago that addresses stuff like that  The Trivialization of God: The Dangerous Illusion of a Manageable Deity by Donald McCullough    ... The title alone grabbed my attention – that says it all  - and check out this one comment about the book on Amazon  “This is a God who transcends our understanding and is unknowable except by divine revelation-the God described by the author of Hebrews as "a consuming fire."

 

I tend to think wierwille’s posturing was typical overreach for a pseudo-Christian cult-leader…in effect he acted like the high priest who was the mediator between God and man. In the Old Testament the high priest was considered the highest religious position of all those who served at the temple. Only he could enter the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement to make atonement for the sins of the nation of Israel. The teachings of wierwille dictated how followers should think of and relate to God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit – and that is exactly the role of a mediator – one who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between…in case you forgot this,  we already have a high priest – Jesus Christ, so we don’t need another middleman    see     Hebrews 4:15 & 16 .

Isn’t it ironic? When wierwille declared in PFAL that “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ” – it actually happened in the opposite way from what students thought. With his twisted interpretation of Scripture – palmed off as “The Word” ...

for all practical purposes wierwille acted as the middleman – the high priest…mediator between God and man, subverting the role of Jesus Christ…

The Word of wierwille takes the place of Jesus Christ   

WWwS…  or    What Would wierwille Say.
 

Edited June 19, 2022 by T-Bone
The Trivialization of My Editor - under new management

[Mark Sanguinetti]

43 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I tend to think wierwille’s posturing was typical overreach for a pseudo-Christian cult-leader…in effect he acted like the high priest who was the mediator between God and man. In the Old Testament the high priest was considered the highest religious position of all those who served at the temple. Only he could enter the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement to make atonement for the sins of the nation of Israel. The teachings of wierwille dictated how followers should think of and relate to God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit – and that is exactly the role of a mediator – one who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between…in case you forgot this,  we already have a high priest – Jesus Christ, so we don’t need another middleman    see     Hebrews 4:15 & 16 .

As it partially relates to T-Bone's comment, in my biblical teaching book I state the following in chapter Four titled: Lordship of Jesus Christ Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man

Quote

There should be no doctrine or teaching which elevates some people at the expense of other legitimate followers of Jesus Christ. Only God the Father and his Son Jesus are to be exalted. Today we have false doctrines such as the pope being the Vicar of Christ, or that by our minds renewed to God's word we take the place of the absent Christ, as was taught in the Christian organization I used to associate with. Christ is surely not absent nor is anyone, regardless of which denomination or Christian organization he heads, be it big or small, the head of the body of believers. The only head of the body of believers is seated at God’s right hand in heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ (Colossians 3:1). 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Mark Sanguinetti