So to me this sounds like you are missing most of the point of Guerdjeff. His incompleteness theorems contradict most of the above paragraphs. And this is the underlying math logic you are referring to. I would suggest a deeper review of what you are using as tools to arrive at your conclusion
I know you mean Godel there.
The proofs for Godel's Theorems ONLY work for technical "Formal Systems" which I explained were 19th century theoretical "proving machines."
To say that Godel's Theorems apply to anything outside of Formal Systems is not accurate. What we learn from Godel can apply, but sans the water tight proofs that Godel came up with.
Mistakes are perfectly normal. Everyone makes them. It's only when your words are held to an impossible standard... say, PFAL's definition of God-breathed... that mistakes undermine a claim to inerrancy.
As I explained to T-Bone a few days ago, HOW words are held to a standard and by which research rules, makes a huge difference. We were taught a method that works well, and that is the method I select for my work.
Math proofs only happen in the realm of RELATIVELY trivial elements of sets, sets of sets, and numbers.
Math proofs are trivial compared to courtroom proofs in this way.
Similarly for science. The surest of sciences (Quantum ElectroDynamics or QED) only can address trivial tiny matters smaller than atoms. Going up the chain to chemistry to biology the profundity increases of the subject matters, BUT the surety decreases.
That's just a bunch of garbled obfuscation, and I think you know that.
As I explained to T-Bone a few days ago, HOW words are held to a standard and by which research rules, makes a huge difference. We were taught a method that works well, and that is the method I select for my work.
ah, the HOW of the Word.
So HOW do we choose what tools to interpret the Word that interprets itself except for when it is not?
*snip* " IF I am wrong, it is not that big a deal to me, nor to God. I've been wrong before, and forgiven. It's easy for me to bounce back from my errors. Besides, my PFAL stand means I absorb LOTS of KJV verses in my PFAL study, and what I am judged for is how I walk in love on that Word that I know. I would be guilty of overestimating God's love maybe?
IFI am right about PFAL being directly from God via 1942 Promise, then you folks are found guilty of trashing God's biggest work in 2,000 years, the restoration of His Word in written PFAL, then you will soon be knowing how Judas felt at the day of Pentecost. What he felt was GREAT shame at getting it ALL wrong. Of course Jesus forgave him, and somehow Judas stumbled thru the 40 days with the apostles, so the apostles forgave him. They probably were too busy condemning their own unbelief at the crucifixion, especially Peter for 6 denials. Then on Pentecost Jesus ascends and disappears from sight, and two angels appear, promising more goodies not many days hence. And the poor natural man that he was, Judas could not take the self condemnation for missing it all so badly. His whole world was turned upside down. I lost his ALL. Now I trust none of you are natural men. Even Raf. Once with Romans 10:9 and the new car behind the curtain is yours. I imagine you all might be able to handle the shame eventually, but there will also be great frustration at what you missed. What did you miss? Look at the beginning of this paragraph and remember the "IF."
If I am right, and you rejected it, then you missed YEARS where you could have been applying it to your lives and others and finally getting results. That will be a big deal to you. The Word talks of the possibility of us Christians being ashamed before him at his coming. Maybe Jesus or the Father will walk you thru your posts and show you where you were wrong.
*snip*
Everything Mike says depends on the supposed 1942 promise being correct.
Every now and again, someone still claims that pfal and twi were special. Their reason for this is the claim that vpw was special. Their reason for this is the 1942 promise. vpw claimed he received a promise from God Almighty in 1942, and he used this claim to justify thinking of "his" books and classes to akin to the Bible itself.
The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm.
All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before...
All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before.
A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened.
There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color.
Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted.
So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it.
There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."
Narcissists and psychopaths dissociate (erase memories) a lot (are amnesiac) because their contact with the world and with others is via a fictitious construct: The False Self. Narcissists never experience reality directly but through a distorting lens darkly. They get rid of any information that challenges their grandiose self-perception and the narrative they had constructed to explicate, excuse and legitimize their antisocial, self-centred and exploitative behaviors, choices and idiosyncrasies.
In an attempt to compensate for the yawning gaps in memory, narcissists and psychopaths confabulate: They invent plausible "plug ins" and scenarios of how things might, could, or should have plausibly occurred. To outsiders, these fictional stopgaps appear as lies. But the narcissist fervently believes in their reality: He may not actually remember what had happened-but surely it could not have happened any other way!
These tenuous concocted fillers are subject to frequent revision as the narcissist's inner world and external circumstances evolve. This is why narcissists and psychopaths often contradict themselves. Tomorrow's confabulation often negates yesterday's. The narcissist and psychopath do not remember their previous tales because they are not invested with the emotions and cognitions that are integral parts of real memories.
Bolshevik said:
even if we had source 19 it would be of eight miles northwest from said location, I believe weather in ohio moves from the southwest to the northeast. It probably doesn't prove much. …Dream away wayfers!!!
I think you’re the one dreaming, or daydreaming. It looks to me that you are trying to re-invent a wheel that went flat several times here.
I suggest you look at the earlier portions of this thread for a quote I posted by Lifted Up on his witnessing two rogue, small, isolated, short-lived, yet massively thick snow storms (or squalls), one in Ohio near HQ and one in Pennsylvania.
The post I referred to may not be on this thread, but on the one that spawned this thread. That earlier thread is titled “Was VPW an Advanced Class Grad” and can be found here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...t=0&start=0
In Post #12 of that thread I reminded readers that weather reports would not very well catch a small rogue snow storm, especially in days of scant communication technology compared to today's. Such storms can be only a few blocks in size, and last only a few minutes, and then melt in a few minutes and never be reported.
On that spawning thread I posted a copy of a very old post that Lifted Up placed here. Here it is again, since it fits so much into this thread’s topic.
posted Jan 1 2003 Post #159 Lifted Up
Rafael wrote...
"It didn't snow. The weather reports from that day in that region prove it did not snow that day."
What weather reports? I have been staying out of this for some reasons, but I can't help being curious about that statement.
Just from a weather reporting point of view, a snow shower such as that in question would be unlikely to show up (or proof that it didn't happen) in any old weather reports, unless the point in question is precisely at an observing and reporting point for weather data. General conditions...the high and low temperature for that given day and whether or not there was precipitation...at even a very a nearby point...just will not tell you either way.
I experienced a very brief and local but intense snow shower one day back in 1979 when I was running near HQ. One minute it was not snowing, the next minute the snow was almost blinding, and fell hard enough to whiten the ground; five minutes later it was gone. Just a couple miles away, it evidently did not snow at all. I have actually seen that kind of thing a number of times; most noteably in the mountains of central PA, but here it was happening in fairly flat country.
The same idea of extreme local weather variations happens in warm weather. I sometimes have a fun time explaining to insurance people, or their clients, that I cannot tell them for sure that there was or was not a storm causing damaging winds at their precise location, because we had no reports either way at the particular time and date they are interested in. (It is easy to be out in the boonies around where I live and work). Sometimes of course I can tell them for sure there was nothing around...of course these calls are not for weather from sixty years ago, either.
Of course, if there were evidence that the temperature was close to, say eighty degrees at the time in question, then the occurrence of a snow shower at that time might be deemed implausible...just like the creation of a dry area across the red Sea by a strong east wind.
I'm curious how they will handle PFAL page 83 where it says:
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed."
i THINK most grads have never flashed on that sentence, neither in the book, nor in the film class. They are nearly identical. When people read it fast, or listen to the audio, it slips by like greased lightning!
Even when people do see of hear it, I am pretty sure that they mentally figure that they read it wrong. "He couldn't have said THAT!" they say. And so they forge it to say what they figure it MUST have been saying, which is:
What Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed."
I am TOTALLY SURE that many do DELIBERATELY forge the sentence to say that, because they tell me so.
It would be almost funny if they left that line in intact, because it probably means no one even saw it.... the norm.
It would be tragic if then forged it to what they want it to say.
I remember well this passage from page 83. With a open heart and mind I used to open vic's books at random, believing for my spiritual suspicions to be proven wrong. This quote and the one about roosters behaving differently during "Bible times" stands out. (JCOPS/JCOP?)
It means what it says: Not ALL of what vic writes is God-breathed, but MOST of it is. (Surgical grammatical analysis is not required to explicate anything written by vic.) I remember gasping at the hubris of his asserted claim. What a cunning thing to write, to say. So subtle in its nuanced deception, obfuscation.
He who claims to have the Truth surely doesn't.
Thank God for GSC. That includes you, too, Mike. I mean it.
I remember well this passage from page 83. With a open heart and mind I used to open vic's books at random, believing for my spiritual suspicions to be proven wrong. This quote and the one about roosters behaving differently during "Bible times" stands out. (JCOPS/JCOP?)
It means what it says: Not ALL of what vic writes is God-breathed, but MOST of it is. (Surgical grammatical analysis is not required to explicate anything written by vic.) I remember gasping at the hubris of his asserted claim. What a cunning thing to write, to say. So subtle in its nuanced deception, obfuscation.
He who claims to have the Truth surely doesn't.
Thank God for GSC. That includes you, too, Mike. I mean it.
So you AGREE with me on the grammar,
but reject the assertion.
So you AGREE with me on the grammar,
but reject the assertion.
I can accept that.
By any chance, are you a grammar expert?
I would not say expert. I used to study language seriously, academically, a long time ago. It's an interest of mine. I've probably forgotten more than most know.
I would not say expert. I used to study language seriously, academically, a long time ago. It's an interest of mine. I've probably forgotten more than most know.
For years most posters here have insisted that PFAL page 83 says something like this:
"What Wierwille writes will necessarily not be God-breathed."
If they were right, then you'd lose the hubris you detected.
IF God taught Dr, and Dr taught us, then that explains how extremely blessed I was when first learning PFAL, and it continues to this day. I love the Epistles of Paul, and seen them as Jesus Christ's ministry to us in THIS administration. I'd NEVER be able to do that had the class not been there consistently.
IF God taught Dr, and Dr taught us, then that explains how extremely blessed I was when first learning PFAL, and it continues to this day. I love the Epistles of Paul, and seen them as Jesus Christ's ministry to us in THIS administration. I'd NEVER be able to do that had the class not been there consistently.
Good for you. Your happiness, power, results and rewards are not tied to evangelizing victor's private, spirituality immature interpretations. But, hey, believe whatever you want. Be about it, don't talk about it, and don't try so hard to convert others - no rewards whatsoever in that. Free advice. Take it or leave it.
God revealed to me many times (the first two times established it) that He didn't teach Vic and that PFAL is NOT God-breathed and that I will get more rewards for forgiving Vic than for following him. So I work to have pity and forgiveness for this little charlatan.
There's a lot of good in Saul's letters, but he wasn't accurate about everything, either. And vic mishandled LOTS of it. Unlearn what you've learned, endeavor honest research and find out for yourself.
The dispensational treatment of the Bible is novel and neat-o and even appears advanced to the immature hungering and thirsting after Truth, but, alas, it's mere religious, man-made private interpretation. It's a distraction, a sleight of hand.
Belief has no place where Truth is concerned. The words are NOT the Word.
Bolshevik said:
even if we had source 19 it would be of eight miles northwest from said location, I believe weather in ohio moves from the southwest to the northeast. It probably doesn't prove much. …Dream away wayfers!!!
I think you’re the one dreaming, or daydreaming. It looks to me that you are trying to re-invent a wheel that went flat several times here.
I suggest you look at the earlier portions of this thread for a quote I posted by Lifted Up on his witnessing two rogue, small, isolated, short-lived, yet massively thick snow storms (or squalls), one in Ohio near HQ and one in Pennsylvania.
The post I referred to may not be on this thread, but on the one that spawned this thread. That earlier thread is titled “Was VPW an Advanced Class Grad” and can be found here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...t=0&start=0
In Post #12 of that thread I reminded readers that weather reports would not very well catch a small rogue snow storm, especially in days of scant communication technology compared to today's. Such storms can be only a few blocks in size, and last only a few minutes, and then melt in a few minutes and never be reported.
On that spawning thread I posted a copy of a very old post that Lifted Up placed here. Here it is again, since it fits so much into this thread’s topic.
posted Jan 1 2003 Post #159 Lifted Up
Rafael wrote...
"It didn't snow. The weather reports from that day in that region prove it did not snow that day."
What weather reports? I have been staying out of this for some reasons, but I can't help being curious about that statement.
Just from a weather reporting point of view, a snow shower such as that in question would be unlikely to show up (or proof that it didn't happen) in any old weather reports, unless the point in question is precisely at an observing and reporting point for weather data. General conditions...the high and low temperature for that given day and whether or not there was precipitation...at even a very a nearby point...just will not tell you either way.
I experienced a very brief and local but intense snow shower one day back in 1979 when I was running near HQ. One minute it was not snowing, the next minute the snow was almost blinding, and fell hard enough to whiten the ground; five minutes later it was gone. Just a couple miles away, it evidently did not snow at all. I have actually seen that kind of thing a number of times; most noteably in the mountains of central PA, but here it was happening in fairly flat country.
The same idea of extreme local weather variations happens in warm weather. I sometimes have a fun time explaining to insurance people, or their clients, that I cannot tell them for sure that there was or was not a storm causing damaging winds at their precise location, because we had no reports either way at the particular time and date they are interested in. (It is easy to be out in the boonies around where I live and work). Sometimes of course I can tell them for sure there was nothing around...of course these calls are not for weather from sixty years ago, either.
Of course, if there were evidence that the temperature was close to, say eighty degrees at the time in question, then the occurrence of a snow shower at that time might be deemed implausible...just like the creation of a dry area across the red Sea by a strong east wind.
I guess I don't get it.If it was just a rogue snow squall that nobody else happened to see, what makes it so phenomenal?
The timing was significant to VPW.
It's short duration was also attention getting to him.
I never said nobody else saw it, only that it didn't get reported by the Weather Service.
********************************************
Ok, OldSkool.
Strike Up the Crickets!
So, according to Mike,
A) Because someone once saw a snow squall that came up once, I'm supposed to believe that's exactly what happened here, despite
1- It supposedly happened in an INSTANT, the sky went from EMPTY to so FULL he couldn't see a few yards away;
2- vpw was shown to have lied about other supposed snowstorms throughout his career, but supposedly THIS ONE was real and the others were fake
3- vpw supposedly saw a sky completely FULL of snow, yet was unable to tell you if the sky was completely BLACKED OUT or was in a complete WHITE OUT. His story went from "the sky was PITCH BLACK" to "the sky was completely WHITE" within a year or so. I expect that, having spoken to people who'd actually SEEN heavy snow, his account of BLACK changed to WHITE once he realized he made up the wrong details. If he'd actually seen BLACK, he would have stuck to his story. If he'd actually seen WHITE, he would have STARTED with that story. If he'd actually have seen either, he'd have remembered whether or not the sky seemed completely white or completely black, and there'd be no confusion whatsoever about the color. When he was asked about another incident where he lied about an imaginary snowstorm, he never asserted he was correct, he immediately adapted the details of his story to what he thought the person in front of him would believe (that he got the most basic details wrong because angels jumped in and deceived him in detail.)
The only reason to believe this snow job is if you're determined to discard all sensible conclusions, and dogmatically cling to the idea that vpw wouldn't have lied about it. Why would this be so important?
If there's no miraculous snowstorm, there's no 1942 promise. If there's no 1942 promise, vpw was not a great man of God who was delivering a new Bible. If that's not true, Mike's wasted the last decades of his life on a lie.
Anyone know what the sunk-cost fallacy is? That's when you double-down on something that is definitely losing, despite it losing, because of all the investment you've already put into it.
There was no miraculous snowstorm in 1942. vpw did not hear from God Almighty. pfal was never meant to replace the Bible- which is why it never says it's supposed to- it's a class and a book on KEYS, not REPLACING Genesis to Revelation nor CONTAINING Genesis to Revelation, but keys to UNDERSTANDING Genesis to Revelation.
Was the wording of the supposed 1942 promise sensible? It was not.
B) The alleged promise was a lie.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
Which is it, God Almighty lied, someone else (say, a devil) claimed to be God, and vpw couldn't tell the truth so he literally taught the doctrine of a devil for the rest of his life, or vpw lied and nobody promised him anything?
Of course, one can ignore the sensible discussion and cling dogmatically to the idea that vpw could not possibly have lied about this, and that God Almighty was somehow right even though factually incorrect at a rather obvious level. One has to lie to oneself to do that, but it's certainly available, and tempting if one insists that to even CONSIDER the possibilities is forbidden and evil.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comprise "revelation."
It was easy for vpw to fool impressionable kids about this sort of thing, since they lacked the education to see how obviously incorrect it was. It's the kind of mistake someone makes when they skip over learning any "Church history", and the kind of mistake kids can miss. To miss it now, even after it's pointed out, is more than sloppy thinking, it's willful ignorance.
Why would someone remain willfully ignorant in the face of what's clear and obvious? Well....
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Bolshevik
Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.
T-Bone
Excerpts from the first draft for a totally revised burnt orange book “Power For Materialistic Living Today”, page 3, Introduction: The Materialistic Life …This post literally changed my life. My
Raf
It is almost impossible to overstate how much this reeks of bullcrap. I'll be gentle: If Euclidian geometry were wrong on one point, Euclidian geometry would be perfectly content to remove
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Mike
I know you mean Godel there.
The proofs for Godel's Theorems ONLY work for technical "Formal Systems" which I explained were 19th century theoretical "proving machines."
To say that Godel's Theorems apply to anything outside of Formal Systems is not accurate. What we learn from Godel can apply, but sans the water tight proofs that Godel came up with.
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Mike
As I explained to T-Bone a few days ago, HOW words are held to a standard and by which research rules, makes a huge difference. We were taught a method that works well, and that is the method I select for my work.
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waysider
That's just a bunch of garbled obfuscation, and I think you know that.
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Bolshevik
ah, the HOW of the Word.
So HOW do we choose what tools to interpret the Word that interprets itself except for when it is not?
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WordWolf
Everything Mike says depends on the supposed 1942 promise being correct.
Every now and again, someone still claims that pfal and twi were special. Their reason for this is the claim that vpw was special. Their reason for this is the 1942 promise. vpw claimed he received a promise from God Almighty in 1942, and he used this claim to justify thinking of "his" books and classes to akin to the Bible itself.
The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm.
All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before...
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WordWolf
All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before.
A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened.
There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color.
Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted.
So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it.
There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.
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WordWolf
B) The alleged promise was a lie.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
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WordWolf
C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."
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Bolshevik
https://www.heraldopenaccess.us/openaccess/dissociation-and-confabulation-in-narcissistic-disorders
Narcissists and psychopaths dissociate (erase memories) a lot (are amnesiac) because their contact with the world and with others is via a fictitious construct: The False Self. Narcissists never experience reality directly but through a distorting lens darkly. They get rid of any information that challenges their grandiose self-perception and the narrative they had constructed to explicate, excuse and legitimize their antisocial, self-centred and exploitative behaviors, choices and idiosyncrasies.
In an attempt to compensate for the yawning gaps in memory, narcissists and psychopaths confabulate: They invent plausible "plug ins" and scenarios of how things might, could, or should have plausibly occurred. To outsiders, these fictional stopgaps appear as lies. But the narcissist fervently believes in their reality: He may not actually remember what had happened-but surely it could not have happened any other way!
These tenuous concocted fillers are subject to frequent revision as the narcissist's inner world and external circumstances evolve. This is why narcissists and psychopaths often contradict themselves. Tomorrow's confabulation often negates yesterday's. The narcissist and psychopath do not remember their previous tales because they are not invested with the emotions and cognitions that are integral parts of real memories.
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OldSkool
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Mike
Wow! A WW blast from the past! Turn back the clock.
WordWolf you are true to form; as usual you left out some pretty damning testimony.
Finding this was fun, on an old "Snow Job" thread.
I edited for easy reading, but the links still work to the original thread.
Another Blast from the Past is this “Lifted Up” post that WW, true to his form, ALWAYS leaves out of his Snow Job summaries.
And guess what?
This clip of a thread has a lot of us same folks discussing it.
********************************************
Mike
Posted January 27, 2009
Bolshevik said:
even if we had source 19 it would be of eight miles northwest from said location, I believe weather in ohio moves from the southwest to the northeast. It probably doesn't prove much. … Dream away wayfers!!!
I think you’re the one dreaming, or daydreaming. It looks to me that you are trying to re-invent a wheel that went flat several times here.
I suggest you look at the earlier portions of this thread for a quote I posted by Lifted Up on his witnessing two rogue, small, isolated, short-lived, yet massively thick snow storms (or squalls), one in Ohio near HQ and one in Pennsylvania.
If you can't find it, I'll re-paste it here.
********************************************
Mike
Posted January 27, 2009
The post I referred to may not be on this thread, but on the one that spawned this thread. That earlier thread is titled “Was VPW an Advanced Class Grad” and can be found here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...t=0&start=0
In Post #12 of that thread I reminded readers that weather reports would not very well catch a small rogue snow storm, especially in days of scant communication technology compared to today's. Such storms can be only a few blocks in size, and last only a few minutes, and then melt in a few minutes and never be reported.
On that spawning thread I posted a copy of a very old post that Lifted Up placed here. Here it is again, since it fits so much into this thread’s topic.
posted Jan 1 2003 Post #159
Lifted Up
Rafael wrote...
"It didn't snow. The weather reports from that day in that region prove it did not snow that day."
What weather reports? I have been staying out of this for some reasons, but I can't help being curious about that statement.
Just from a weather reporting point of view, a snow shower such as that in question would be unlikely to show up (or proof that it didn't happen) in any old weather reports, unless the point in question is precisely at an observing and reporting point for weather data. General conditions...the high and low temperature for that given day and whether or not there was precipitation...at even a very a nearby point...just will not tell you either way.
I experienced a very brief and local but intense snow shower one day back in 1979 when I was running near HQ. One minute it was not snowing, the next minute the snow was almost blinding, and fell hard enough to whiten the ground; five minutes later it was gone. Just a couple miles away, it evidently did not snow at all. I have actually seen that kind of thing a number of times; most noteably in the mountains of central PA, but here it was happening in fairly flat country.
The same idea of extreme local weather variations happens in warm weather. I sometimes have a fun time explaining to insurance people, or their clients, that I cannot tell them for sure that there was or was not a storm causing damaging winds at their precise location, because we had no reports either way at the particular time and date they are interested in. (It is easy to be out in the boonies around where I live and work). Sometimes of course I can tell them for sure there was nothing around...of course these calls are not for weather from sixty years ago, either.
Of course, if there were evidence that the temperature was close to, say eighty degrees at the time in question, then the occurrence of a snow shower at that time might be deemed implausible...just like the creation of a dry area across the red Sea by a strong east wind.
********************************************
Mike
Posted January 27, 2009
waysider said:
I guess I don't get it. If it was just a rogue snow squall that nobody else happened to see, what makes it so phenomenal?
The timing was significant to VPW.
It's short duration was also attention getting to him.
I never said nobody else saw it, only that it didn't get reported by the Weather Service.
********************************************
Ok, OldSkool.
Strike Up the Crickets!
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Nathan_Jr
I remember well this passage from page 83. With a open heart and mind I used to open vic's books at random, believing for my spiritual suspicions to be proven wrong. This quote and the one about roosters behaving differently during "Bible times" stands out. (JCOPS/JCOP?)
It means what it says: Not ALL of what vic writes is God-breathed, but MOST of it is. (Surgical grammatical analysis is not required to explicate anything written by vic.) I remember gasping at the hubris of his asserted claim. What a cunning thing to write, to say. So subtle in its nuanced deception, obfuscation.
He who claims to have the Truth surely doesn't.
Thank God for GSC. That includes you, too, Mike. I mean it.
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Bolshevik
2009?
Why not just post Victor Paul Wierwille's words on the topic? His words interpret themselves.
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Mike
So you AGREE with me on the grammar,
but reject the assertion.
I can accept that.
By any chance, are you a grammar expert?
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Nathan_Jr
I would not say expert. I used to study language seriously, academically, a long time ago. It's an interest of mine. I've probably forgotten more than most know.
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Mike
For years most posters here have insisted that PFAL page 83 says something like this:
"What Wierwille writes will necessarily not be God-breathed."
If they were right, then you'd lose the hubris you detected.
I don't count it hubris, IF it is true.
If it is not true, then it is hubris maximus.
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Nathan_Jr
If they were right, then you's lose the hubris you detected.
Huh?
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Mike
Babe Ruth said that "if a man says he can jump over a barn, and he can do it, then it ain't bragging."
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Nathan_Jr
Babe Ruth wasn't accurate about EVERYTHING.
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Mike
I know.
Plus, I might not even be right about that quote.
But I like the idea.
IF God taught Dr, and Dr taught us, then that explains how extremely blessed I was when first learning PFAL, and it continues to this day. I love the Epistles of Paul, and seen them as Jesus Christ's ministry to us in THIS administration. I'd NEVER be able to do that had the class not been there consistently.
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Nathan_Jr
Good for you. Your happiness, power, results and rewards are not tied to evangelizing victor's private, spirituality immature interpretations. But, hey, believe whatever you want. Be about it, don't talk about it, and don't try so hard to convert others - no rewards whatsoever in that. Free advice. Take it or leave it.
God revealed to me many times (the first two times established it) that He didn't teach Vic and that PFAL is NOT God-breathed and that I will get more rewards for forgiving Vic than for following him. So I work to have pity and forgiveness for this little charlatan.
There's a lot of good in Saul's letters, but he wasn't accurate about everything, either. And vic mishandled LOTS of it. Unlearn what you've learned, endeavor honest research and find out for yourself.
The dispensational treatment of the Bible is novel and neat-o and even appears advanced to the immature hungering and thirsting after Truth, but, alas, it's mere religious, man-made private interpretation. It's a distraction, a sleight of hand.
Belief has no place where Truth is concerned. The words are NOT the Word.
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WordWolf
So, according to Mike,
A) Because someone once saw a snow squall that came up once, I'm supposed to believe that's exactly what happened here, despite
1- It supposedly happened in an INSTANT, the sky went from EMPTY to so FULL he couldn't see a few yards away;
2- vpw was shown to have lied about other supposed snowstorms throughout his career, but supposedly THIS ONE was real and the others were fake
3- vpw supposedly saw a sky completely FULL of snow, yet was unable to tell you if the sky was completely BLACKED OUT or was in a complete WHITE OUT. His story went from "the sky was PITCH BLACK" to "the sky was completely WHITE" within a year or so. I expect that, having spoken to people who'd actually SEEN heavy snow, his account of BLACK changed to WHITE once he realized he made up the wrong details. If he'd actually seen BLACK, he would have stuck to his story. If he'd actually seen WHITE, he would have STARTED with that story. If he'd actually have seen either, he'd have remembered whether or not the sky seemed completely white or completely black, and there'd be no confusion whatsoever about the color. When he was asked about another incident where he lied about an imaginary snowstorm, he never asserted he was correct, he immediately adapted the details of his story to what he thought the person in front of him would believe (that he got the most basic details wrong because angels jumped in and deceived him in detail.)
The only reason to believe this snow job is if you're determined to discard all sensible conclusions, and dogmatically cling to the idea that vpw wouldn't have lied about it. Why would this be so important?
If there's no miraculous snowstorm, there's no 1942 promise. If there's no 1942 promise, vpw was not a great man of God who was delivering a new Bible. If that's not true, Mike's wasted the last decades of his life on a lie.
Anyone know what the sunk-cost fallacy is? That's when you double-down on something that is definitely losing, despite it losing, because of all the investment you've already put into it.
There was no miraculous snowstorm in 1942. vpw did not hear from God Almighty. pfal was never meant to replace the Bible- which is why it never says it's supposed to- it's a class and a book on KEYS, not REPLACING Genesis to Revelation nor CONTAINING Genesis to Revelation, but keys to UNDERSTANDING Genesis to Revelation.
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WordWolf
Was the wording of the supposed 1942 promise sensible? It was not.
B) The alleged promise was a lie.
Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all.
Which is it, God Almighty lied, someone else (say, a devil) claimed to be God, and vpw couldn't tell the truth so he literally taught the doctrine of a devil for the rest of his life, or vpw lied and nobody promised him anything?
Of course, one can ignore the sensible discussion and cling dogmatically to the idea that vpw could not possibly have lied about this, and that God Almighty was somehow right even though factually incorrect at a rather obvious level. One has to lie to oneself to do that, but it's certainly available, and tempting if one insists that to even CONSIDER the possibilities is forbidden and evil.
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WordWolf
C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance.
twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him.
But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise."
How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word?
They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof.
The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.)
So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century."
vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not.
vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comprise "revelation."
It was easy for vpw to fool impressionable kids about this sort of thing, since they lacked the education to see how obviously incorrect it was. It's the kind of mistake someone makes when they skip over learning any "Church history", and the kind of mistake kids can miss. To miss it now, even after it's pointed out, is more than sloppy thinking, it's willful ignorance.
Why would someone remain willfully ignorant in the face of what's clear and obvious? Well....
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