Power for Abundant Living Today™

[T-Bone]

On 5/25/2022 at 10:20 AM, Mike said:

 

Do you know any saints who are not sinners?
My take on John's First Epistle is that we all are sinners, even when we have the "saint" status.
My take on VPW's First Session is that we all commit the greatest sin, and often.

Yes, we are all sinners – but it’s also alarming that some of the greatest errors that the epistle of I John confronts such as Gnosticism and antinomianism have also been one of best kept secrets in way-world today! 

The gnostic idea that matter is evil and only spirit is good leads to diametrically opposed extremes. One extreme was asceticism – where adherents would withdraw from the world, renounce material possessions, physical pleasures, and comforts -    Colossians 2: 21 – 23 speaks to that error. 

At the opposite end of the practical spectrum was antinomianism – that was the thinking that sin committed in the body had no connection or effect on one’s spirit. That opened the floodgates of immorality since sin committed in the physical body did not matter…to indulge in sinfulness was permissible, one could even deny sin existed -  I John confronts that error:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.      I John 1: 8-10

The general public of TWI are not aware of this double standard. But those who’ve been through the way corps program are all too familiar with the hypocrisy of wierwille and certain other top leadership – as evidenced in Kristen Skedgell’s book  Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape … (on another thread   - here  - I mention a few sordid details from her book.)

The new and improved formula for wierwille’s brand of antinomianism has great biblical-sounding one-liners like “I’ve so renewed my mind that  things like   _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _  (fill in the blank for the indulgence of your choice) does not bother me.”  License to do anything was decreed by wierwille’s proclamation “anything done in the love of God is okay.” And as a preemptive countermeasure to anyone who might be offended, shocked, or upset by wierwille’s behavior he would say stuff like “The love of God thinketh no evil.” I have mentioned many times on Grease Spot one particular meeting in the Family Corps where I witnessed wierwille in all his sanctimonious glory spewing out these salacious indulgences – see here

Mike said: “My take on VPW's First Session is that we all commit the greatest sin, and often.”
I think that may be echoing the same mistake that wierwille made in that first session of PFAL; If I remember correctly wierwille’s monologue gets into asking what’s the greatest sin a person can commit? He refers to Matthew 22: 34-40 where Jesus talks about the greatest commandment…wierwille then answers his own question saying by sheer logic breaking this greatest commandment is the greatest sin.  

But I don’t think Jesus was using the superlative adjective “greatest” to specify or describe the absolute worst sin. Let’s look at it in the NIV (you can click on the pull down tab to see other translations once you click on the hyperlink to Matt. 22  ):

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.  One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? “Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”   Matthew 22: 34 - 37

Or, as the NLT translation has verse 40,  “The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments”   Matthew 22:40

Since Jesus brings the entire Old Testament into the conversation it seems more likely he’s using the superlative adjective “greatest” to mean that the principle (the ethical or legal code) to love God and neighbor is SO BIG, it encapsulates the entire Hebrew Bible. In other words, there’s nothing more important than that...to love God and neighbor is comprehensive...all-encompassing. 

 

I think wierwille’s teachings on sin tended to water down the seriousness of sin as well as its consequences – by teaching that all sin is the same. He also used the term “broken fellowship” like a mild euphemism to blunt the harsh unpleasant reality of sin and its consequences. I remember in that same PFAL session wierwille muddied the topic even more by saying as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please. That could be advantageous to situation ethics. With such an ambiguous tenet one could make a moral decision that it’s okay to have a sexual encounter with the neighbor’s wife. for example I could reason that I love God, she attends our Twig, so I know she loves God too…we’re both believers so we love each other…I have a need…she has a need…our spouses are both at work – and what they don’t know won’t hurt them. 

All sin is the same? I don’t think so.

The Bible, the secular laws of the land, and even common sense will tell you not all sin (or crimes) are the same. The Old Testament had a compensatory code that was extensive covering all kinds of crimes and offenses – but most folks are familiar with the “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” idea. In The New Testament even Jesus makes distinctions on degrees of punishment appropriate to the sin:   Matthew 10:15  Luke 17:2  ...And elsewhere Scripture notes the correlation of sin and consequences  Romans 6  Romans 7  I Corinthians 3  I Corinthians 5   I Corinthians 6:9,10   Galatians 5: 19-21     Galatians 6:7, 8  Ephesians 4:17-32   I Thessalonians 4   I Timothy 4:1, 2   I Timothy 6  Hebrews 12: 1-29   I Peter 2:11  Revelation 21:8 ...Be aware that most of these passages address the impact of sin AFTER salvation...the ramifications of our behavior is not just in the here and now - but as we head into eternity.

Most states and civilized countries set up codes/laws/penalties along a similar line of a “punishment to fit the crime”. That’s where you see delineations of felonies, misdemeanors, jail time, fines, etc. Crime is crime – true but not all crime is the same in terms of consequences.

The statement “My take on VPW's First Session is that we all commit the greatest sin, and often” can be boiled down to one of the typical logical fallacies that big wierwille-fans use to validate and promote PFAL. It’s along the lines  of an appeal to hypocrisy also known as tu quoqe (a Latin term for 'you too', meaning a counter-accusation). It focuses on the supposed hypocrisy of a critic. The tu quoque fallacy deflects criticism away from PFAL by accusing the critic of the same problem or something comparable. The fallacy usually occurs when one tries to neutralize criticism and distract from the issue. It’s the slippery idea that we-are-all-sinners-so-who-are-you-to-judge-wierwille counteraccusation. Of course, that has nothing to do in a discussion about “the law of believing”, or the ridiculousness of saying "scripture interprets itself" but who cares.     (I’ve exposed this logical fallacy on another thread -here   ).  

Now what was the issue Mike was attempting to divert our attention from? Waysider asked “Mike Correct me if I'm wrong. Did he not also say, in the PFAL class, that the law of believing "works for saint and sinner alike."? "Why, if I were a bettin' man, I'd wager"... you'll find a way to reconcile these contradictions.”     See here    . Mike’s response which is quoted above, manages double-duty  - by dodging the question and perpetuating another wierwille lie, that all sin is the same.

Mike’s typical ploy is to attack the critic of PFAL instead of debating the issue of PFAL. He has expressed here many times that PFAL is God-breathed and supports the lies documented on pages 178 and 209 of the TWI-authorized book The Way Living in Love  which records wierwille’s admission of plagiarism under the guise of being authorized by God to steal the intellectual property of others: “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me…

…“Lots of the stuff I teach is not original. Putting it all together so that it fit – that was the original work. I learned wherever I could, and then worked that with the Scriptures. What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn’t, I dropped.”

As amazingly simple as this may sound - PFAL has a lot wrong with it because it is an eclectic mix of dubious ideologies cobbled together by an incompetent plagiarist. That’s besides the fact that “the teacher” was an unabashed plagiarist, exhibited strong addictions to nicotine, alcohol and sex – and he was also delusional.
 

Edited May 30, 2022 by T-Bone
all editing is the same

[Rocky]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:50 PM, Rocky said:

What I see is you doing what TWI did for eons... get mad when people disagreed with them. They always had to be right. Now, selectively conflating concepts/issues/notions, you have to be the only one with the right answer.

That's not how life works, my friend. 

Wisdom from the current age (Disney) 

 

[Rocky]

Edited May 30, 2022 by Rocky
If ANYONE ever had the right to say that, it was Frankl.

[Rocky]

Edited May 30, 2022 by Rocky
If ANYONE ever had the right to say that, it was Frankl.

[Rocky]

[WordWolf]

Possibly the most insidious part about the "do as you fool well please" that vpw said was how it dismissed proper Christian mindsets and proper Christian conduct.

Jesus said to love the Lord your God with everything you've got, and to love your neighbor like you love yourself- then clarified "neighbor" to include Samaritan to Jew (Jews were used to scorning Samaritans.)   So, that's reasonably straightforward.    Love God with everything you've got-  and act accordingly because otherwise you're only PRETENDING to love God with everything you've got.   Treat people as nicely as you treat yourself- which is obvious in your actions because otherwise you're only PRETENDING to love your neighbor as yourself.

That's not hard to understand.  That's not hard to explain.

Then vpw comes along and says "you can do as you fool well please" so long as you do both. 

WHAT???????

You can dismiss cries for help if you feel like it?   Yes, because vpw was claiming you could do whatever you wanted, and soft-pedaled what Jesus said and what he meant.   If you followed Jesus' instructions, there's a lot you could NOT do- because it would not be good for others, or it would dishonor God Almighty.   But vpw didn't care about either- he was determined to have a rule where he could do as he fool well pleased.    How else could he be so casual and claim that God Almighty was ok with ORGIES when to participate would violate a lot of the Old Testament, disgrace God and dishonor others?    He dismissed all the implications in actually loving God and loving others.

[Rocky]

Bravo WordWolf.

[Bolshevik]

On 5/26/2022 at 5:36 PM, Rocky said:

Seriously? Because you were born into it, YMMV, but many of us were not born into it. 

What do you understand the hook was that kept anyone in the cult for 12 years?

I have been accused of making this about me.  This where I disagree.  Here I am immediately dismissed because of the cohort *I belong* to.

The hostility by cult joiners toward the younger generations, along with gays and debt, did not begin with this website.    It was institutionalized long ago.  

 

[chockfull]

Nice TBone and WW great breakdown on the twisting of even the most basic of scriptures, which have parallels in writings in other religions.

”You can do as you fool well please” sounds like VPWs mission statement.

He also provided mission statements for others- WOW - to be measured by how many classes they ran.  These measurements exist well beyond any updates on classes and they don’t change.  Each branch will strive to run a class every …  And constant communication regarding status on that sales goal.

None of that bears any resemblance to Jesus teachings of love God and love your neighbor.

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by chockfull

[chockfull]

38 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I have been accused of making this about me.  This where I disagree.  Here I am immediately dismissed because of the cohort *I belong* to.

The hostility by cult joiners toward the younger generations, along with gays and debt, did not begin with this website.    It was institutionalized long ago.  

 

B I’m kinda more inclined to give everyone room to be themselves because I was a fundamentalist in a cult.

That is kind of the definition of non inclusion.

So I’m trying to fix that slowly…

We each I am certain experienced our own version of TWI.  Some experienced more or less of certain things and others were hidden from sight unless you were the victim.

[chockfull]

On 5/29/2022 at 7:46 PM, Rocky said:

Yeah working on it.  Progress is the opposite of congress lol.

[Bolshevik]

35 minutes ago, chockfull said:

. . . 

We each I am certain experienced our own version of TWI.  Some experienced more or less of certain things and others were hidden from sight unless you were the victim.

Again we have a tense issue.

And yes, same event happens in front of numerous people and each has a different experience.  That's why I'm calling out the recent trolling.  Knock it off.

[Rocky]

4 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

I have been accused of making this about me.  This where I disagree.  Here I am immediately dismissed because of the cohort *I belong* to.

The hostility by cult joiners toward the younger generations, along with gays and debt, did not begin with this website.    It was institutionalized long ago.  

 

 

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Again we have a tense issue.

And yes, same event happens in front of numerous people and each has a different experience.  That's why I'm calling out the recent trolling.  Knock it off.

[Bolshevik]

By "tense" I meant past vs present vs. future. 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/tense

 

The trolling is the demand to write like someone else thinks.  I will not.

[Bolshevik]

 

Keep your Viktors.

 

 

[Rocky]

6 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Keep your Viktors.

I don't understand what you mean by that sentence. Would you care to  clarify?

[Bolshevik]

1 minute ago, Rocky said:

I don't understand what you mean by that sentence. Would you care to  clarify?

"Viktors" is a reference to the inspirational quotes in above posts.  They are quoting Viktor Frankl.  These are quoted alongside quoting myself.  Hence I am under the impression they are addressed to me.

It means,

I don't know what this is. . .  But we can be done with it.

[Rocky]

3 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

"Viktors" is a reference to the inspirational quotes in above posts.  They are quoting Viktor Frankl.  These are quoted alongside quoting myself.  Hence I am under the impression they are addressed to me.

It means,

I don't know what this is. . .  But we can be done with it.

Frankl published 39 books.^[5] The autobiographical Man's Search for Meaning, a best-selling book, is based on his experiences in various Nazi concentration camps.<sup>[6]

As I indicated previously (the first time I posted those images) nobody earned the right to make the claim about attitude more than he did. It's pertinent to the direction this thread veered off into over the last week or so. Granted, your experiences in TWI were not enviable. I wouldn't wish those experiences on anyone. 

From another Wikipedia article about Frankl,</sup>

After earning his M.D. in 1930, Frankl gained extensive experience at Steinhof Psychiatric Hospital, where he was responsible for the treatment of suicidal women. In 1937, he began a private practice, but the Nazi annexation of Austria in 1938 limited his opportunity to treat patients.^[1] In 1940, he joined Rothschild Hospital, the only hospital in Vienna still admitting Jews, as head of the neurology department. Prior to his deportation to the concentration camps, he helped numerous patients avoid the Nazi euthanasia program that targeted the mentally disabled.^[2][13]

In 1942, just nine months after his marriage, Frankl and his family were sent to the Theresienstadt concentration camp. His father died there of starvation and pneumonia. In 1944, Frankl and the surviving members of his family were transported to Auschwitz, where his mother and brother were murdered in the gas chambers. His wife died later of typhus in Bergen-Belsen. Frankl spent three years in four concentration camps.<sup>[6]

So, ignore the wisdom of the ages if you wish, but I embrace his insight and that of others who shared their wisdom through the ages.</sup>

[Nathan_Jr]

46 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Frankl published 39 books.^[5] The autobiographical Man's Search for Meaning, a best-selling book, is based on his experiences in various Nazi concentration camps.<sup>[6]

As I indicated previously (the first time I posted those images) nobody earned the right to make the claim about attitude more than he did. It's pertinent to the direction this thread veered off into over the last week or so. Granted, your experiences in TWI were not enviable. I wouldn't wish those experiences on anyone. 

From another Wikipedia article about Frankl,</sup>

After earning his M.D. in 1930, Frankl gained extensive experience at Steinhof Psychiatric Hospital, where he was responsible for the treatment of suicidal women. In 1937, he began a private practice, but the Nazi annexation of Austria in 1938 limited his opportunity to treat patients.^[1] In 1940, he joined Rothschild Hospital, the only hospital in Vienna still admitting Jews, as head of the neurology department. Prior to his deportation to the concentration camps, he helped numerous patients avoid the Nazi euthanasia program that targeted the mentally disabled.^[2][13]

In 1942, just nine months after his marriage, Frankl and his family were sent to the Theresienstadt concentration camp. His father died there of starvation and pneumonia. In 1944, Frankl and the surviving members of his family were transported to Auschwitz, where his mother and brother were murdered in the gas chambers. His wife died later of typhus in Bergen-Belsen. Frankl spent three years in four concentration camps.<sup>[6]

So, ignore the wisdom of the ages if you wish, but I embrace his insight and that of others who shared their wisdom through the ages.</sup>
 

A Man's Search For Meaning has been on my list for a long time. No excuses.

I wonder if PFALT is as hateful of Jews as PFAL. The irony of victor demeaning Jesus as a bastard Jew while revering the apostle Saul who claimed to be the Jew of Jews... oh, the pathological contradictions! The hate. The division. Gross. 

[chockfull]

On 5/31/2022 at 1:58 PM, Rocky said:

Well this thread isn’t a tensionless state 

I bet like me Frankl had a fair amount of PTSD.

[Bolshevik]

8 hours ago, Rocky said:

Frankl published 39 books.^[5] The autobiographical Man's Search for Meaning, a best-selling book, is based on his experiences in various Nazi concentration camps.<sup>[6]

As I indicated previously (the first time I posted those images) nobody earned the right to make the claim about attitude more than he did. It's pertinent to the direction this thread veered off into over the last week or so. Granted, your experiences in TWI were not enviable. I wouldn't wish those experiences on anyone. 

From another Wikipedia article about Frankl,</sup>

After earning his M.D. in 1930, Frankl gained extensive experience at Steinhof Psychiatric Hospital, where he was responsible for the treatment of suicidal women. In 1937, he began a private practice, but the Nazi annexation of Austria in 1938 limited his opportunity to treat patients.^[1] In 1940, he joined Rothschild Hospital, the only hospital in Vienna still admitting Jews, as head of the neurology department. Prior to his deportation to the concentration camps, he helped numerous patients avoid the Nazi euthanasia program that targeted the mentally disabled.^[2][13]

In 1942, just nine months after his marriage, Frankl and his family were sent to the Theresienstadt concentration camp. His father died there of starvation and pneumonia. In 1944, Frankl and the surviving members of his family were transported to Auschwitz, where his mother and brother were murdered in the gas chambers. His wife died later of typhus in Bergen-Belsen. Frankl spent three years in four concentration camps.<sup>[6]

So, ignore the wisdom of the ages if you wish, but I embrace his insight and that of others who shared their wisdom through the ages.</sup>
 

On this thread I'm looking at what the class does to people.  Others have described it.  I've witnessed the zombies it producess. 

I apologize to everyone for this circular chatter.

[waysider]

14 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I apologize to everyone for this circular chatter.

Like the kids at the skatepark used to say, "It's all good, Dude.".

[Rocky]

7 hours ago, chockfull said:

Well this thread isn’t a tensionless state 

I bet like me Frankl had a fair amount of PTSD.

That would be a fair bet.

[Rocky]

7 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

I apologize to everyone for this circular chatter.

I've been attached (sort of) to/with GSC for more than 20 years. In the mid-aughts I had some seriously trying times.

We survive.

Thankfully, you're also a survivor. I'm thankful for your perspective.